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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 20:41:38 GMT -5
Exactly Lin. Why shouldn't workers be encouraged to give feedback on the WINGS website? Its foolish to classify workers as the enemy and exclude them from attempts to eradicate this scourge from the fellowship. There's no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website. If I was a worker I wouldn't point people to an anti-2x2 website, and I hope people would appreciate my openness in stating that. I assumed we were discussing a back room influence, ie. WINGS board: would you recommend our site to the friends? Workers: not until you change x. y & Z. If I got that wrong apologies. That is exactly what I meant by the topic of this poll, passerby. The workers are free to offer suggestions and help all they want. Of course they should be encouraged to do such, but if that means that the site has to be watered down, communication squelched, names being removed from lists, etc., just to get their help, then no.
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2013 20:47:12 GMT -5
Yet BB has stated (not verbatim) that workers WILL report suspected CSA abuse to the proper authorities and when questioned about also notifying the overseer he said it is not necessary, you choose if you wish.
This is a huge change (probably quite a relief also) from the complete control expected aforetimes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 21:05:06 GMT -5
Yet BB has stated (not verbatim) that workers WILL report suspected CSA abuse to the proper authorities and when questioned about also notifying the overseer he said it is not necessary, you choose if you wish. This is a huge change (probably quite a relief also) from the complete control expected aforetimes. Yes it is a big change but it is not directly due to a change of heart. This change came about by law enforcement grabbing them by the ears and forcing them to change. I do hope there is some change of heart but if not for the Frandle case, it would still be pretty muddy with regard to reporting. There is still a need for a change of heart so that the priorities that should be in place are rearranged properly.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2013 22:03:58 GMT -5
Yes, he did say that. He also said it was his decision, no one else's. He felt it made sense. He likely does know a lot more than most people about what will work and what won't. I would say ask the victims if they are upset by this or see the wisdom in trying to separate the two objectives of Wings. One site for advocacy and the other for support and healing. That's how most Sexual Assault Centers are set up. They do both, separately. RE: Yes, he (Scott) did say that. He also said it was his decision, no one else's.Yes, the final vote or decision may have been up to Scott, as the WINGS Admin, but there is no doubt in my mind that some of the other the WINGS group members were consulted and/or voiced their opinions, one being clearday, who stated he is taking a "hard stand" on the location of the CSA stories (I think that was what he called his position). This decision was not made by Scott working in isolation from the rest of the WINGS group. Also, it is normal for the Administrator or President, etc. to take the blame for actions of a group s/he is head of, when challenged. Regarding experience, ever since its inception, WINGS has been groping its way, and it still is. It has to be that way since they are in uncharted territory, and I doubt there is anyone who has ever been part of the WINGS group who had personal experience in what WINGS is attempting to accomplish. This being the case, they make many moves in the dark, pull back, regroup, go forward, etc. This is just normal for a new group with no precedent. WINGS likely has a board similar to this on which they discuss issues...we used a yahoogroup list back when I was with WINGS. I'm sure you're right that it was discussed. I would be surprised if it wasn't. Like you have said they are moving forward into uncharted waters and that does mean there will be things that could possibly be done better. However, it is what it is and I think that they need to be able to move forward as they learn what is working and what is not working. There decisions are not about a popularity contest. There will always be those who disagree no matter what you do. They must do what they feel is right. Discussion is good. That's how better ideas are born.
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Post by fixit on Jun 30, 2013 22:35:30 GMT -5
Exactly Lin. Why shouldn't workers be encouraged to give feedback on the WINGS website? Its foolish to classify workers as the enemy and exclude them from attempts to eradicate this scourge from the fellowship. There's no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website. If I was a worker I wouldn't point people to an anti-2x2 website, and I hope people would appreciate my openness in stating that. I assumed we were discussing a back room influence, ie. WINGS board: would you recommend our site to the friends? Workers: not until you change x. y & Z. If I got that wrong apologies. If not, then I question some of your post fixit. It is unquestionable that the current public stance of the worker group (no stance?) is well behind what the broader community expects of those who work with children and it appears to be resisting change.It is also unquestionable that some of the workers have been perpertrators, others have hid the crimes. How can we be sure those influencing aren't included or one of the groups? Wouldn't be the first organisation involved in CSA prevention to be infiltrated Does this make the workers the enemy? No, but it suggests WINGS should be very careful about how it involves the worker group and how it appears to involve the group. Regarding "no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website?" My impression has always been it is a subtly pro-2by2 if anything, whilst attempting to be objective. Preventing any questionable influence, remaining transparent and accountable is not being anti-2by2. Allowing individuals to describe experiences and express opinions that are anti-2by2 does not make the site anti-2by2. It depends on your individual definition. That said, it may in fact be entirely necessary for the WINGS to appear anti-2by2 (depending on your definition). Advocating for change is always characterised as "anti-" by those resisting that change. I've been working with youth for many decades with various gov, NGO & religous organisations. I honestly cannot see the 2by2 group, and workers in particular, easily, if ever, adopting the sort of policies and processes that these organisations have put in place to deal with CSA. For example, there is no way the regional/individual fiefdom can continue, or the unchallengeable power of the overseers. I can't see the worker group willingly accepting this change. Why do you think that? A few workers have been in touch with Scott over the years and he's discussed that on TMB quite openly. Naturally the WINGS website would come up in discussion - how would it not? TRUE.TRUEI understand the "influencing" so far has only been in the giving of feedback while discussing CSA. Would you rather no one discuss CSA with workers? This is where many TMB posters on this topic are way off the mark. LIKE WHO? I'm confident WINGS has always been, and always will be, careful about how it involves anyone at all. Please give some examples that would lead you to that conclusion. TRUE TRUE. Perhaps, but remember not all workers are resisting the changes WINGS is advocating.
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Post by emy on Jul 1, 2013 1:24:35 GMT -5
Emy, I can not believe that you wrote some "victims might want counsel from a worker concerning their case". The workers are the last people that someone should go to if they have been sexually abused. Of course the workers are going to protect their church. Make sure it does not get out and certainly not on this or WINGs sites where the person can get help. Workers are not equipped to handle sexual abuse. The best and only advice they should be giving is for the person to go to an experienced sexual abuse counsellor. My guess is that the worker might want to talk to the offenderadn 'get his side' who will adamently deny the abuse. Isn't it the prerogative of most people to have a pastor counsel them IF they so wish? I suppose not all victims are exes and some may want to talk to an understanding worker. After all, there are workers who have been abused also.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 1:44:58 GMT -5
Hey fixit, thanks for your reply. You’ve asked quite a few questions, some of which to be honest I’m not sure about. That said, the perhaps in the last sentence of your post suggests we are on the same page. So I’d rather not get bogged down in semantics. In brief, I believe discussion (with whoever) is desirable . That is different from allowing workers to influence the content of WINGS site, which is what I am giving my opinion on. Influence could be an issue (for example) if it is not transparent – Scott made it transparent – or if it compromises WINGS objectives. Like you I am confident Wings is careful and considerate in what it does. Personally I think these sort of public discussions play an important role in affirming that to those who aren't sure. In this area (CSA) appearing to do the right thing can be just as essential as actually doing it. Transparency is the key and, again, this discussion is likely helpful in allaying concerns. My impression of the Wings website, and what lead me to that, is irrelevant. The point was viewing it as anti-2by2 or pro- depends on the individual. "Wouldn't be the first organisation involved in CSA prevention to be infiltrated." My choice of wording here was very poor. I am suggesting other victim groups have been compromised by the influence of people who are part of the problem. It is fair enough to ask me for an example, but I don’t have one at hand, I’d have to search it out and I can’t see the relevance really.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 1, 2013 3:35:19 GMT -5
NO Emy, I would hope pastors know their limits and would tell the person to go to a professional counsellor. There they would accept that they could not counsel someone who had been Sexually abused and refer them to the appropriate professional.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 1, 2013 8:53:08 GMT -5
NO Emy, I would hope pastors know their limits and would tell the person to go to a professional counsellor. There is not one pastor I know who would even begin to accept that he could counsel someone who had been Sexually abused. They would refer them to the appropriate professional. Both can happen. I know that I have referred people who have suffered abuse to workers who had also suffered abuse. The worker can be seen as a trusted source of support and empathy within the church, and the counseling that they do is more in line with their function within the church as spiritual advisor. Some people have a fear of counseling, and to have a trusted worker encourage them to get counseling helps them to get over that fear. That is much the same as what you posted. An individual goes to their pastor for counseling, and that pastor in turn encourages them to see a professional, but will continue to provide spiritual advice, and be there for them as a trusted member within the church.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 10:23:34 GMT -5
NO Emy, I would hope pastors know their limits and would tell the person to go to a professional counsellor. There is not one pastor I know who would even begin to accept that he could counsel someone who had been Sexually abused. They would refer them to the appropriate professional. Both can happen. I know that I have referred people who have suffered abuse to workers who had also suffered abuse. The worker can be seen as a trusted source of support and empathy within the church, and the counseling that they do is more in line with their function within the church as spiritual advisor. Some people have a fear of counseling, and to have a trusted worker encourage them to get counseling helps them to get over that fear. That is much the same as what you posted. An individual goes to their pastor for counseling, and that pastor in turn encourages them to see a professional, but will continue to provide spiritual advice, and be there for them as a trusted member within the church. There are pastors who are also trained, professional counselors. Our local Presby pastor is a PhD and is well known as an excellent professional counselor. However, I understand that for someone needing longer term therapy, he will refer them to others. Regardless, his professional background has been a very valuable asset in the community. I wouldn't send any survivor to any worker for professional counseling. Hopefully most would make good spiritual counselors but unfortunately, we still have far too many workers who will do their spiritual counseling and then advise against psychological/emotional counseling, largely leaving the survivor with nowhere to go. Workers need to wake up on this, and become familiar with all the resources available in the community for people to get help. That would be the best counseling they could give. Some do have some knowledge of resources but not nearly enough to help direct people properly. From what I have seen over the years, the vast majority of people who need help end up leaving the meetings because the church can't help them either directly or indirectly, often marginalizing them as not being godly enough. And when they leave, they get tagged with a "bad spirit". The only people who have struggles and do survive in the meetings are those who barrel ahead on their own to get help without the direction of the workers (and usually without the support of the workers). This is a huge area that needs a change in attitude among workers, and to a lesser extent, the friends.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 1, 2013 10:39:27 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. Until you have victims that are part of WINGS and are WILLING to stand UP to the WORKERS nothing will ever change!!!! This is what I thought would eventually happen as WINGS became more known and more able to help victims and educate people within the 2sx2 religion. I am totally surprised to see from your post that there are no victims on the volunteer board of admin. on WINGS....I wonder if they've been asked to help with increasing the work and visibility of WINGS? And that beyond their own experience?
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Post by emy on Jul 1, 2013 12:09:03 GMT -5
NO Emy, I would hope pastors know their limits and would tell the person to go to a professional counsellor. There is not one pastor I know who would even begin to accept that he could counsel someone who had been Sexually abused. They would refer them to the appropriate professional. Oops! I clicked on the wrong icon and posted a "like" on this. Rather confusing, eh? What I meant to say: I wasn't thinking of only worker counseling. I recognize the necessity of professional counseling for sure. But SOME victims may want to talk to a worker who understands the situation or who can give wise spiritual advice.
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Post by emy on Jul 1, 2013 12:15:42 GMT -5
Both can happen. I know that I have referred people who have suffered abuse to workers who had also suffered abuse. The worker can be seen as a trusted source of support and empathy within the church, and the counseling that they do is more in line with their function within the church as spiritual advisor. Some people have a fear of counseling, and to have a trusted worker encourage them to get counseling helps them to get over that fear. That is much the same as what you posted. An individual goes to their pastor for counseling, and that pastor in turn encourages them to see a professional, but will continue to provide spiritual advice, and be there for them as a trusted member within the church. There are pastors who are also trained, professional counselors. Our local Presby pastor is a PhD and is well known as an excellent professional counselor. However, I understand that for someone needing longer term therapy, he will refer them to others. Regardless, his professional background has been a very valuable asset in the community. I wouldn't send any survivor to any worker for professional counseling. Hopefully most would make good spiritual counselors but unfortunately, we still have far too many workers who will do their spiritual counseling and then advise against psychological/emotional counseling, largely leaving the survivor with nowhere to go. Workers need to wake up on this, and become familiar with all the resources available in the community for people to get help. That would be the best counseling they could give. Some do have some knowledge of resources but not nearly enough to help direct people properly. From what I have seen over the years, the vast majority of people who need help end up leaving the meetings because the church can't help them either directly or indirectly, often marginalizing them as not being godly enough. And when they leave, they get tagged with a "bad spirit". The only people who have struggles and do survive in the meetings are those who barrel ahead on their own to get help without the direction of the workers (and usually without the support of the workers). This is a huge area that needs a change in attitude among workers, and to a lesser extent, the friends. Might need to be a change in attitude in other minds, as well! I like what Scott said in his post about the method that might be used. Do you know Paul Boyd at all? I heard him say more than once that it's important to get professional counseling for psychological problems (paraphrase). He was primarily referring to depression, but the advice could free up people to get help for other things, too.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 1, 2013 12:25:52 GMT -5
There are pastors who are also trained, professional counselors. Our local Presby pastor is a PhD and is well known as an excellent professional counselor. However, I understand that for someone needing longer term therapy, he will refer them to others. Regardless, his professional background has been a very valuable asset in the community. I wouldn't send any survivor to any worker for professional counseling. Hopefully most would make good spiritual counselors but unfortunately, we still have far too many workers who will do their spiritual counseling and then advise against psychological/emotional counseling, largely leaving the survivor with nowhere to go. Workers need to wake up on this, and become familiar with all the resources available in the community for people to get help. That would be the best counseling they could give. Some do have some knowledge of resources but not nearly enough to help direct people properly. From what I have seen over the years, the vast majority of people who need help end up leaving the meetings because the church can't help them either directly or indirectly, often marginalizing them as not being godly enough. And when they leave, they get tagged with a "bad spirit". The only people who have struggles and do survive in the meetings are those who barrel ahead on their own to get help without the direction of the workers (and usually without the support of the workers). This is a huge area that needs a change in attitude among workers, and to a lesser extent, the friends. Might need to be a change in attitude in other minds, as well! I like what Scott said in his post about the method that might be used. Do you know Paul Boyd at all? I heard him say more than once that it's important to get professional counseling for psychological problems (paraphrase). He was primarily referring to depression, but the advice could free up people to get help for other things, too. Emy, the problem with CSA victims' and their physchological needs is that there are usually several types of psychological abberations there in their being. Certainly depression and anxiety perhaps are the beginning ones, but as time helps some things, it doesn't always help the victims' psychological burden. Unless a pastor/minister/worker is particularly educated and kept educated in these kind of medical needs then it might prove to be adding more burdens to the sufferer to just add "spiritual" advice. It's kind of like one of the workers wrote in his experience laboring in Madagascar....he said that those poor folks were so poor that their only thought of each day is to find a bite of food to help them make another day. They are not able to bring on spiritual needs or desires....Maslow's hierarchy feeds to that opinion....if the humans' basic needs are not met, then it is foolish for anyone to try and push that person on to the next level of human actions/beings....it usually serves to be more detrimental by making that poor soul feel like they're not doing what they should be doing....something of that sort. I would NOT recommend any CSA victims to approach a worker UNTIL they've seen an educated counselor of those things that come from CSA victimizations.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2013 14:34:14 GMT -5
2x2 CSA victims are in a significantly more difficult position than many of the 'ordinary' SCA victims and subject to far greater psycological dangers --- not because of the actual abuse events (which I would guess on the whole, to be less traumatic than many others) but because of the betrayal of close to the entire social network arround the victim afterwards.
This is a recuring complaints of victims in the vast majority of cases I am familiar with. The extent the 'worker protection' phenomenon within 2x2ism doesn't exist in many other groupings --Betrayal sometimes even by parents and the closest people to the victim. This can be an unbearable burden.
Many have experienced this secondary isolation as the most painful aspect of the abuse.
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Post by emy on Jul 1, 2013 14:51:01 GMT -5
Might need to be a change in attitude in other minds, as well! I like what Scott said in his post about the method that might be used. ... Emy, the problem with CSA victims' and their physchological needs is that there are usually several types of psychological abberations there in their being. Certainly depression and anxiety perhaps are the beginning ones, but as time helps some things, it doesn't always help the victims' psychological burden. Unless a pastor/minister/worker is particularly educated and kept educated in these kind of medical needs then it might prove to be adding more burdens to the sufferer to just add "spiritual" advice. It's kind of like one of the workers wrote in his experience laboring in Madagascar....he said that those poor folks were so poor that their only thought of each day is to find a bite of food to help them make another day. They are not able to bring on spiritual needs or desires....Maslow's hierarchy feeds to that opinion....if the humans' basic needs are not met, then it is foolish for anyone to try and push that person on to the next level of human actions/beings....it usually serves to be more detrimental by making that poor soul feel like they're not doing what they should be doing....something of that sort. I would NOT recommend any CSA victims to approach a worker UNTIL they've seen an educated counselor of those things that come from CSA victimizations. Did you read what Scott wrote? It seems to me that the members of WINGS are doing their best to help each victim in whatever way they need help. Apparently they do not use a cookie cutter approach.
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Post by fixit on Jul 1, 2013 16:24:32 GMT -5
I think it is a good poll. WINGS is not directly influenced by workers now. It is a fair discussion as to whether this should be encouraged in the future. Personally, I view workers on an individual basis as just another person and it doesn't matter to me if they are a first year worker or a long time overseer. No better or no worse than anyone else unless they prove themselves differently. So they should stand up and make their views known rather than avoiding WINGS as they do now. I'm convinced that a vocal few on TMB over the last few days have tried harder to influence WINGS than workers ever have.
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Post by rational on Jul 1, 2013 16:36:00 GMT -5
On a serious note, the best influence that we hope and dream for is that they would react in a Godly manner by admitting what has happened, apologizing, begging for forgiveness, cleaning house; and from hearts filled with compassion, offer restitution for the victims and their families without even being asked for it. That is the very best influence they could give. These are criminal matters. Godly manners have little to do with it. Having someone say they are sorry is certainly a nice thing but only if they mean it. Getting caught and having to apologize as part of the arbitration is meaningless. Forgiveness is up to the victim but making them beg is just being vindictive. What should the restitution be? Perhaps paying for therapy? Can pain and suffering be equated with money?
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 1, 2013 17:35:31 GMT -5
Sharing the riches: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is perhaps the most common psychological problem amongst SA victims and survivors. Even many counsellors are not equipped to counsel this.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 1, 2013 18:22:25 GMT -5
Emy, the problem with CSA victims' and their physchological needs is that there are usually several types of psychological abberations there in their being. Certainly depression and anxiety perhaps are the beginning ones, but as time helps some things, it doesn't always help the victims' psychological burden. Unless a pastor/minister/worker is particularly educated and kept educated in these kind of medical needs then it might prove to be adding more burdens to the sufferer to just add "spiritual" advice. It's kind of like one of the workers wrote in his experience laboring in Madagascar....he said that those poor folks were so poor that their only thought of each day is to find a bite of food to help them make another day. They are not able to bring on spiritual needs or desires....Maslow's hierarchy feeds to that opinion....if the humans' basic needs are not met, then it is foolish for anyone to try and push that person on to the next level of human actions/beings....it usually serves to be more detrimental by making that poor soul feel like they're not doing what they should be doing....something of that sort. I would NOT recommend any CSA victims to approach a worker UNTIL they've seen an educated counselor of those things that come from CSA victimizations. Did you read what Scott wrote? It seems to me that the members of WINGS are doing their best to help each victim in whatever way they need help. Apparently they do not use a cookie cutter approach. I'm secure in knowing Scott well enough to know that it would likely be detrimental to send a CSA victim to a worker when a worker was the perpetrator.....Since the authorities are supposed to be the first to know, usually those authorities know who the victims should contact in priority order.....no where do I say that a worker would never be the person to send a child victim to, but I do know since likely the victim's offender is someone in the fellowship, sending said victim to any of the people within the 2x2's seems a bit risky in that should that connection fly by that there will likely be more distrust and pain experienced by the victim. And plus, isn't it noted that adults who have been abused as children are just if not more apt to become the offenders? Just where can you find the real truth to trust when CSA happens in the 2x2 fellowship whether worker or friend offending? It's a tight knit group and even our experience in seeing many of the workers and friends still being quite sure that CSA doesn't ever happen in the fellowship or that any of the workers would dare be caught even in an appearance of such! So it makes it a very tough call to send a victim to someone in the group whom they may well have distrust of.....but I'm not saying it can't be done.....
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Post by fixit on Jul 1, 2013 18:48:22 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. Until you have victims that are part of WINGS and are WILLING to stand UP to the WORKERS nothing will ever change!!!! This is what I thought would eventually happen as WINGS became more known and more able to help victims and educate people within the 2sx2 religion. I am totally surprised to see from your post that there are no victims on the volunteer board of admin. on WINGS....I wonder if they've been asked to help with increasing the work and visibility of WINGS? And that beyond their own experience? STR, please be careful about reading between the lines and jumping to wrong conclusions. Like the bolded above.
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Post by ts on Jul 1, 2013 23:55:09 GMT -5
On a serious note, the best influence that we hope and dream for is that they would react in a Godly manner by admitting what has happened, apologizing, begging for forgiveness, cleaning house; and from hearts filled with compassion, offer restitution for the victims and their families without even being asked for it. That is the very best influence they could give. These are criminal matters. Godly manners have little to do with it. Having someone say they are sorry is certainly a nice thing but only if they mean it. Getting caught and having to apologize as part of the arbitration is meaningless. Forgiveness is up to the victim but making them beg is just being vindictive. What should the restitution be? Perhaps paying for therapy? Can pain and suffering be equated with money? pain and suffering cannot be equated with money. However, there is a real financial burden placed on the victim as a result of CSA. The workers have the means to help the victims of CSA perpetrated by Workers. They don't have to. Not yet, anyway. The law has not yet declared the Worker system liable for damages. I know of only one instance where a Worker gave money to pay for a CSA victim's medical bills. It was something but not near enough. It was not anywhere near what the Workers spend on court cases like Jerome Frandle's. Evidently it is easier to put a price on trying to staying out of jail than to put a price the long term effects of CSA.
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Post by ts on Jul 2, 2013 0:09:42 GMT -5
I think it is a good poll. WINGS is not directly influenced by workers now. It is a fair discussion as to whether this should be encouraged in the future. Personally, I view workers on an individual basis as just another person and it doesn't matter to me if they are a first year worker or a long time overseer. No better or no worse than anyone else unless they prove themselves differently. So they should stand up and make their views known rather than avoiding WINGS as they do now. I just saw a documentary of the the Bismark. There were some German survivors of the Bismark recalling the British pulling them out of the water after having just previously sinking their ship. He said that they were treating them like brothers. When men are acting collectively towards a common goal, it is good and right to view them as the cause they are working towards. When the time is right, they are to be viewed as individuals. Even brothers. It is a common ploy of the Workers to pretend to be individuals and no one is making decisions to shun/rebuke/punish/move abusers etc when, in fact, there are several Overseers in the know and making decisions collectively and a mass of Workers under them obeying unquestioningly. Much like an army. Generals making decisions and soldiers carrying out orders and upholding policies and rules. So, I do agree with you and I also see each Worker as an individual. I also see the Workers as supporting a system that I do not agree with because of how detrimental it is to weak and vulnerable individuals. The Work, for example, is very different than the individuals in different parts of the country or World who leave the fellowship abused. They are spread out in different cultures and countries, yet, they have a very similar story about Worker abuse. You see, that testimony confirms that the collective effect of the Workers is the same and is not just individual workers doing their thing. They Workers have the same beliefs and manners of operation because of those beliefs. The victims, on the other hand, did not get together and figure out how they were going to react to being victimized. The Workers are the collective army and the victims are the individuals when we are discussing abuses due to policies and practices within the group. The Workers only become individuals when(for example) they decide that they have seen enough abuse and decide to speak out against it. Then they become the individuals who share a common story with the abused.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2013 1:28:28 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. I can understand the hopelessness you feel Marie -- especially in the light of the recent developments on Wings. The obvious need for 2x2 approval to present the concerns of CSA victims on Wings, has completely destroyed my confidence as well. You hit the nail on the head!! Wings 'Going to bed with 2x2ism' will solve no problems.
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Post by fixit on Jul 2, 2013 6:50:27 GMT -5
Edgar, can I ask what problems you have solved since you started your campaign against the workers?
Confrontation is often not the best way to achieve results.
“A good thing to remember
And a better thing to do,
Is to work with the construction gang
And not the wrecking crew.”
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 2, 2013 10:27:22 GMT -5
Edgar, can I ask what problems you have solved since you started your campaign against the workers? Confrontation is often not the best way to achieve results. “A good thing to remember And a better thing to do Is to work with the construction gang And not the wrecking crew.” The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke For evil to flourish, it only requires good men to do nothing. Simon Wiesenthal The worker system of gossip, whisper campaigns, and the shunning of ALL they they perceive as enemies (simply people that may have made the mistake of innocently disagreeing with them) is EVIL. It is THAT evil within the system that I would be more than happy to take a wrecking ball to, rather than help them build up.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 2, 2013 10:43:28 GMT -5
Exactly Lin. Why shouldn't workers be encouraged to give feedback on the WINGS website? Its foolish to classify workers as the enemy and exclude them from attempts to eradicate this scourge from the fellowship. There's no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website. If I was a worker I wouldn't point people to an anti-2x2 website, and I hope people would appreciate my openness in stating that. I assumed we were discussing a back room influence, ie. WINGS board: would you recommend our site to the friends? Workers: not until you change x. y & Z. If I got that wrong apologies. If not, then I question some of your post fixit. It is unquestionable that the current public stance of the worker group (no stance?) is well behind what the broader community expects of those who work with children and it appears to be resisting change.It is also unquestionable that some of the workers have been perpertrators, others have hid the crimes. How can we be sure those influencing aren't included or one of the groups? Wouldn't be the first organisation involved in CSA prevention to be infiltrated Does this make the workers the enemy? No, but it suggests WINGS should be very careful about how it involves the worker group and how it appears to involve the group. Regarding "no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website?" My impression has always been it is a subtly pro-2by2 if anything, whilst attempting to be objective. Preventing any questionable influence, remaining transparent and accountable is not being anti-2by2. Allowing individuals to describe experiences and express opinions that are anti-2by2 does not make the site anti-2by2. It depends on your individual definition. That said, it may in fact be entirely necessary for the WINGS to appear anti-2by2 (depending on your definition). Advocating for change is always characterised as "anti-" by those resisting that change. I've been working with youth for many decades with various gov, NGO & religous organisations. I honestly cannot see the 2by2 group, and workers in particular, easily, if ever, adopting the sort of policies and processes that these organisations have put in place to deal with CSA. For example, there is no way the regional/individual fiefdom can continue, or the unchallengeable power of the overseers. I can't see the worker group willingly accepting this change. I like your post because it addresses the receptivity of the WINGS site among the friends, which is the real issue. The issue of victims having a voice or being heard is more properly addressed through the BTS site. The two goals overlap however. Victims stories can help to convince the church to change by making a direct appeal to peoples' hearts. Although workers will not adopt WINGS guidelines,WINGS could reach friends through a direct appeal and more publicity of the site. If the site sticks to the issue then it can avoid the various mine fields around belief issues. I agree with you that even if WINGS deals with the CSA issue in a professional and non-prejudicial manner, the site may be considered "anti-2x2" and will face resistance, regardless. My conclusion is that site content should not be altered to address that kind of resistance. To me "neutral" means mainly - avoid talk about religion entirely. Why create any un-necessary issues? Personally, having thought about it, the victim stories that are really needed are those that pertain to identified and prosecuted criminal cases. There are enough of those to amount to a wake-up call for many of the friends.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 20, 2013 9:36:04 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site. I would rather just read the victims' stories without listening to a back and forth argument. I think most readers are astute enough to figure out the truth. That's just my opinion
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