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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2012 10:03:20 GMT -5
Sorry, J! But with a handle of "jwatt" you're apt to get mistaken more then once! Another case of saying something for which no verification was sought Verification was there, Kiwi! You don't know of what you speak!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2012 10:07:20 GMT -5
It leaves 99% of the remainder of the post correct. You expect nothing to be said in case of the small chance something is wrong. No wonder people don't speak out in meetings about wrong. I guess people are not mind readers. There are 2 jwatts on this board although one uses another name. The first response of a number of people, even mods was that someone was using the first jwatts handle only to discover that there are 2 jwatts on here. Thanks, Lynn....actually as I posted my congratulations to the 1 jwatt on being of a mind against CSA in the fellowship/workership and not covering things up...I had a suspicion that due to the way that this particular jwatt expressed themself...that the other jwatt must have had a 360 degree turn in opinion on the CSA issues within the fellowship!~ I mean, I had only hoped...but then I got that hope shot to smithereens! It really isn't a good thing for either one of them to use "jwatt" for they are apt to bear one another's blame, etc! Just a thought for either one that may well care!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2012 10:19:36 GMT -5
I just took time to look at our local newspaper, then came back online....in this morning's newspaper is the accounting of a prisoner's jury trial in regards to the murderer murdering another prisoner who had been convicted less then 2 weeks before this heinous act. The murderer is receiving life in prison without parole....he meditated on what and how and when to do this act......the prisoner who had just been convicted, was convicted of 2 accounts of CSA......
This type of ending should be spoken throughout the socieities where CSA perps are hiding....that should they be convicted, that they likely will face death or something worse and that's being tortured and that might eventually lead to their death.
Seems if this perps would understand that what they allow themselves to do will reap torture at the least in this life as well as the fires of hell, that they would try to at least get help for their perversions.
The workership that is hiding perps should also have to face these things. In regards to that, the charge that JF is facing is only just and right....though he should be aware that he may well face at least a brief imprisoning, but may never walk out of the jail/prison due to the prisoners there are felony charges may well challenge his rights to life esp. as he has known it.
Maybe the rest of us can understand what drives JF to fight this misdeamor charge! I wouldn't wish what happened to the convicted CSA perp in that newspaper article at all....that would have been a horrible thing.....
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2012 10:20:33 GMT -5
Big paddle foot sounds like he'd be a good swimmer a duckbill platypus?
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2012 10:51:58 GMT -5
The advantage of following the "reporting of suspicion" to authorities is that "false accusations" don't occur privately. The suspicions go the authorities who investigate. Only when they find sufficient evidence to charge someone does someone actually get accused at that point. Of course real life is never so clean and clear cut, but it is a good goal to work toward. If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. I agree with all you said!!
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2012 10:54:22 GMT -5
Keep in mind that JF is not an offender.
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Post by JO on Apr 21, 2012 14:57:57 GMT -5
I just took time to look at our local newspaper, then came back online....in this morning's newspaper is the accounting of a prisoner's jury trial in regards to the murderer murdering another prisoner who had been convicted less then 2 weeks before this heinous act. The murderer is receiving life in prison without parole....he meditated on what and how and when to do this act......the prisoner who had just been convicted, was convicted of 2 accounts of CSA...... This type of ending should be spoken throughout the socieities where CSA perps are hiding....that should they be convicted, that they likely will face death or something worse and that's being tortured and that might eventually lead to their death. Seems if this perps would understand that what they allow themselves to do will reap torture at the least in this life as well as the fires of hell, that they would try to at least get help for their perversions. The workership that is hiding perps should also have to face these things. In regards to that, the charge that JF is facing is only just and right....though he should be aware that he may well face at least a brief imprisoning, but may never walk out of the jail/prison due to the prisoners there are felony charges may well challenge his rights to life esp. as he has known it. Maybe the rest of us can understand what drives JF to fight this misdeamor charge! I wouldn't wish what happened to the convicted CSA perp in that newspaper article at all....that would have been a horrible thing..... Sharon, we know that prisoners tend to despise child sexual abusers but I think they have more chance of doing their time and emerging in one piece than your post suggests!
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Post by JO on Apr 21, 2012 15:14:17 GMT -5
If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. If we lived in a society that understood how much damage child sexual abuse causes - the mental health issues, the suicides, the downward spiral into prostitution, drug and alcohol addiction, crime etc - then the 5% who are falsely accused would be a small price to pay to protect children from the 95% who are perpetrators. If ever I'm falsely accused I'll try to think about the children who are being protected from the nineteen perpetrators who would be free to continue their evil crimes if paranoia over false accusations were to prevent any action.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 21, 2012 17:55:18 GMT -5
I just took time to look at our local newspaper, then came back online....in this morning's newspaper is the accounting of a prisoner's jury trial in regards to the murderer murdering another prisoner who had been convicted less then 2 weeks before this heinous act. The murderer is receiving life in prison without parole....he meditated on what and how and when to do this act......the prisoner who had just been convicted, was convicted of 2 accounts of CSA...... This type of ending should be spoken throughout the socieities where CSA perps are hiding....that should they be convicted, that they likely will face death or something worse and that's being tortured and that might eventually lead to their death. Seems if this perps would understand that what they allow themselves to do will reap torture at the least in this life as well as the fires of hell, that they would try to at least get help for their perversions. The workership that is hiding perps should also have to face these things. In regards to that, the charge that JF is facing is only just and right....though he should be aware that he may well face at least a brief imprisoning, but may never walk out of the jail/prison due to the prisoners there are felony charges may well challenge his rights to life esp. as he has known it. Maybe the rest of us can understand what drives JF to fight this misdeamor charge! I wouldn't wish what happened to the convicted CSA perp in that newspaper article at all....that would have been a horrible thing..... Sharon, we know that prisoners tend to despise child sexual abusers but I think they have more chance of doing their time and emerging in one piece than your post suggests! As one of the area friend's son works in the McCallister State Prison system, he has admitted that IF the penal system does NOT keep the CSA convicts OUT OF THE other convicts way that those convicts may get out of prison, but they won't be whole....whether that be physical or psychological. He stated that when a known CSA convicted person is coming to their prison system that they are kept in a small group together.....the prison guards have found too many of such convicts in their cels and even in the exercise yard, either near death or dead! This is not a condition that needs to be convered over, JO....this very thing could help some of those who are "tempted" to do such awful deeds, but IF knowing that their life could be well compromised if ever convicted, they might think twice. And yes, I know murderers don't seem to worry too much any more about the death sentence for their heinous crimes.....but the laws are set to take care of the offenders in any case.....and IF those offenders of CSA find themselves ALONE in a regular jail or within the daily population of some prison, they might as well start looking to their back, UNLESS that prison keeps them separate...but sooner or later that may become an almost impossible thing with the prison crowding that there is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 20:12:09 GMT -5
If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. If we lived in a society that understood how much damage child sexual abuse causes - the mental health issues, the suicides, the downward spiral into prostitution, drug and alcohol addiction, crime etc - then the 5% who are falsely accused would be a small price to pay to protect children from the 95% who are perpetrators. If ever I'm falsely accused I'll try to think about the children who are being protected from the nineteen perpetrators who would be free to continue their evil crimes if paranoia over false accusations were to prevent any action. That is the right attitude. If anyone gets investigated for CSA even though they are innocent, they should be thankful that the system is working to protect children.
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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 22:04:28 GMT -5
A very nice platitude CD, until it happens to you.
I know first hand of the pain and devastation that occurs to the individual and the family when a false (and mostly vindictive) accusation is made. The stain it leaves behind never goes away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 22:14:05 GMT -5
A very nice platitude CD, until it happens to you. I know first hand of the pain and devastation that occurs to the individual and the family when a false (and mostly vindictive) accusation is made. The stain it leaves behind never goes away. How do you propose to eliminate false accusations? Don't worry I know the answer. False accusations will come guaranteed. Learning strategies to manage such crises will go a long way to avoiding hurt and damages.
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Post by emy on Apr 21, 2012 22:38:00 GMT -5
The advantage of following the "reporting of suspicion" to authorities is that "false accusations" don't occur privately. The suspicions go the authorities who investigate. Only when they find sufficient evidence to charge someone does someone actually get accused at that point. Of course real life is never so clean and clear cut, but it is a good goal to work toward. If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. Worth a repeat here.
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Post by JO on Apr 22, 2012 1:32:14 GMT -5
The advantage of following the "reporting of suspicion" to authorities is that "false accusations" don't occur privately. The suspicions go the authorities who investigate. Only when they find sufficient evidence to charge someone does someone actually get accused at that point. Of course real life is never so clean and clear cut, but it is a good goal to work toward. If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. Worth a repeat here. Who is investigating the issues in this thread? Are secular authorities involved?
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 22, 2012 1:54:32 GMT -5
Who is investigating the issues in this thread? Are secular authorities involved? Noels said that they are doing everything right so of course one would expect that the crime has been reported to the police. If it is not reported then it is placing the workers in the same position as Jerome
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Post by quizzer on Apr 22, 2012 2:10:43 GMT -5
Have there been current victims in this NZ situation, or is the situation itself a concern?
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mira
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Post by mira on Apr 22, 2012 3:18:51 GMT -5
I don't believe the offences have been reported to the police. When you say CURRENT victims - yes there are current victims. Victims live it for their whole lives.
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Post by JO on Apr 22, 2012 3:32:56 GMT -5
The advantage of following the "reporting of suspicion" to authorities is that "false accusations" don't occur privately. The suspicions go the authorities who investigate. Only when they find sufficient evidence to charge someone does someone actually get accused at that point. Of course real life is never so clean and clear cut, but it is a good goal to work toward. If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. As you say, life is never so clean and clear cut. Often the victim doesn't feel strong enough to take the matter to the authorities. What should be done when the victim has given the name of the perpetrator but said he will not report it? I have a case close to me like this. Its not unusual. Peter Watson's case is an example... ====== ============= ========== ========= Coming back from Queensland, she met him at the airport and found him in rough shape. ''He was very emotional … he said 'I've done something you'll never believe Mum'. ''And I said no matter what you've done, it's OK. And then he proceeded to tell me.'' It emerged he had been abused. ''And then he told me that if I told a soul he would kill himself.'' Read more: www.theage.com.au/victoria/mother-cant-forget-the-day-she-lost-her-beautiful-boy-20120417-1x5p8.html#ixzz1skvNyxVN
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Post by JO on Apr 22, 2012 3:52:44 GMT -5
I don't believe the offences have been reported to the police. When you say CURRENT victims - yes there are current victims. Victims live it for their whole lives. Is the church supporting the victims, assuring them that child sexual abuse is not condoned or covered up by the church?
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mira
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Post by mira on Apr 22, 2012 5:05:58 GMT -5
No I don't believe they have contact with the victims
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wanda
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Post by wanda on Apr 22, 2012 9:27:54 GMT -5
A very nice platitude CD, until it happens to you. I know first hand of the pain and devastation that occurs to the individual and the family when a false (and mostly vindictive) accusation is made. The stain it leaves behind never goes away. I know first hand what it is to be accused of making a false accusation by a so called elder and his wife about his son; all he was interested in was protecting themselves and their son not their Grandchildren. This was during marital court proceedings and the child told me what happened then refused to open up to the police. Evidence needs to be physical: photos, video or bodily trauma before police will even take accusations further. The ex inlaws are still trying to clear their sons name; they couldn't care less about the victim who will always now have the realization that they were abused by their father. For those on here to say CSA unsubstantiated cases are common in divorce proceedings is naive and ignorant. It is a very sensitive topic and distressing for all involved.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 9:44:37 GMT -5
Wanda, over here (the UK), it is quite commonplace in the "civil courts" which deal with matrimonial and/or custody cases for parties to mud sling with accusations of child abuse (as opposed to the specific category of csa) in their bid to gain a divorce or custody of children.
Few of these accusations end up in the criminal courts. The whole system and standards of evidence are vastly different.
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wanda
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Post by wanda on Apr 22, 2012 10:07:42 GMT -5
Wanda, over here (the UK), it is quite commonplace in the "civil courts" which deal with matrimonial and/or custody cases for parties to mud sling with accusations of child abuse (as opposed to the specific category of csa) in their bid to gain a divorce or custody of children. Few of these accusations end up in the criminal courts. The whole system and standards of evidence are vastly different. I was quoting my own experience and I believe others should only quote theirs. If you have been involved in divorce proceedings and have experienced the pitfalls of the court system yourself then fair enough, however if you are quoting from your perceived idea of what you think is happening then that is unwise. Child abuse allegations against another parent can very well be the reason they have divorced to begin with - there is always denial and lies from the guilty party and often the children involved get manipulated to keep quiet out of fear. There are so many factors involved it is hard to comprehend the extent of understanding abuse allegations as the perpetrator will always deny and if they are the parent, the child will want to be loyal to them. It doesn't matter where you live - the court systems in the western world are very similar, the common theme being to blame the mother if an allegation occurs unless the court appointed psychologist or police can determine that the abuse actually did occur.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2012 10:14:58 GMT -5
What a feeble excuse kiwi. My mother asked the workers for help and to do something as she was sick of them knowing there was an issue but pretending nothing was happening. I guess she should have known that they were not capable of helping. Their only help was to tell him to stop going to Sunday morning meeting, go to Gospel meetings, and profess again. They have also done this in the case of a women being abused and battered by her professing husband. The workers are way behind the general population in knowing how to handle any kind of issue. Most pastors have some form of counselling in their training. Training which the workers criticise pastors for. And again as you have in the past complained that they interfere to much, so another case of dammed if you do and damned if you don't. since the workers are NOT trained to counsel or advise anyone outside of the scriptural things, they would most likely feel "damned if we do and damned if we don't". That is very true for the reason they "often try" to help and it boomerangs on them and that is because they do not have training to "protect" their personal feelings, etc. That said, it is really a stupid thing for any one within the fellowship to expect the workers to advise them, counsel them in regards to the trials and troubles of life. Most times the workers would have NO personal experience in these things NOR do they have the training to help others and protect themselves. So I can't always want to blame the workers for NOT trying but I do find it that I blame the workers to try when they know full well that what is being asked of them is something they are NOT trained to do. The workers do need to refuse, but it is hard when they know the person asking worships the ground they walk on....this worker worship is very harmful in more ways then one. God's only true servants is a title that is harmful to any person who works under that thought! IMO
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2012 10:19:56 GMT -5
A very nice platitude CD, until it happens to you. I know first hand of the pain and devastation that occurs to the individual and the family when a false (and mostly vindictive) accusation is made. The stain it leaves behind never goes away. Sadly this can be very true.....but I have noticed when a person that's been accused makes it known that HE IS willing to be investigated though he knows he is not guilty, that he can be free of the allegations when the investigation is done.....I suppose it depends on how much rumor goes with the allegation for I do know one man is apt to have to face questions anytime a CSA issues comes up in regards to the general area he is known to be in....that is sad. There doesn't seem to be a "safe" answer for CSA! It comes down to innocent alleged perps suffering undue problems on their reputations OR the children are supressed into silence! But as someone noted, usually going to the side of the children is the best because they do not have the maturity to handle the lasting effects of the CSA.
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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2012 10:25:28 GMT -5
Wanda, over here (the UK), it is quite commonplace in the "civil courts" which deal with matrimonial and/or custody cases for parties to mud sling with accusations of child abuse (as opposed to the specific category of csa) in their bid to gain a divorce or custody of children. Few of these accusations end up in the criminal courts. The whole system and standards of evidence are vastly different. Are not some of the "symptoms" of CSA not also found in children of a divorcing fighting parents? Would it not be almost impossible for even professional CSA experts to tell the difference when they get the privilege of examining the children? So in that light, even the professionals might come back that those children (child) WERE abused by one parent, though in fact it may turn out when the child get old enough that they find out that it was just trauma of the child's emotional being due to the divorce, etc?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 10:28:06 GMT -5
Wanda, over here (the UK), it is quite commonplace in the "civil courts" which deal with matrimonial and/or custody cases for parties to mud sling with accusations of child abuse (as opposed to the specific category of csa) in their bid to gain a divorce or custody of children. Few of these accusations end up in the criminal courts. The whole system and standards of evidence are vastly different. I was quoting my own experience and I believe others should only quote theirs. If you have been involved in divorce proceedings and have experienced the pitfalls of the court system yourself then fair enough, however if you are quoting from your perceived idea of what you think is happening then that is unwise. Child abuse allegations against another parent can very well be the reason they have divorced to begin with - there is always denial and lies from the guilty party and often the children involved get manipulated to keep quiet out of fear. There are so many factors involved it is hard to comprehend the extent of understanding abuse allegations as the perpetrator will always deny and if they are the parent, the child will want to be loyal to them. It doesn't matter where you live - the court systems in the western world are very similar, the common theme being to blame the mother if an allegation occurs unless the court appointed psychologist or police can determine that the abuse actually did occur. I am merely pointing out there is a vast difference in making allegations of child abuse or other misconduct in the civil courts and criminal courts. In the former the pursuer is seeking to make some gain either through obtaining a divorce, a greater division of the spolis or gaining custody of children. Very often if there are genuine "serious" allegations made of child abuse, violent conduct, etc, in the civil courts, these will have been preceded by earlier complaints made to the authorities and the crimes processed through the criminal courts. Criminal convictions for child abuse, matrimonial violence etc, in respect of the other party are a Godsend to any lawyer representing a client in the civil courts. Lawyers in civil cases advise their clients to report criminal matters simply because any convictions which result will strengthen their case no end. Of course there are many reasons why a client may not wish to report criminal matters, but that will only serve to weaken their case. Civil matters are usually kept in abeyance until any criminal matters are disposed off, simply because the result in a criminal case can all but seal and deliver a case in the civil courts. The standard of evidence is much higher in a criminal court, ie the case must be proved beyond all reasonable doubt. In the civil courts it is merely "on the balance of probabilities." If you throw enough mud some of it will stick and it does. Of course there are genuine cases of child abuse or matrimonial violence which appear in the civil courts in pursuance of divorces and child custody and which have not been reported to the authorities for investigation and process through the criminal courts, but in comparison to those where imagination, exaggeration and lawyer induced fantasy are few.
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wanda
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Post by wanda on Apr 22, 2012 10:41:24 GMT -5
Have you experienced the court systems for yourself? How can you judge that the abuse cases in the civil/family court were not relevant to the safety of the child? As in my case the allegation came out at the beginning of lengthy court proceedings and the father had been grooming the child since the marriage break up.
Who are you to make the judgement that allegations are only made for monetary or custody purposes. Making an allegation is very stressful and upsetting and certainly not something one would choose to do for their own benefit. This is a common mistake the layman makes about custody proceedings - making presumptions based on what they hear not what they experience.
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