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Post by sharonw on Apr 20, 2012 17:26:39 GMT -5
There are several reasons to consider working with Lynn C: First, she has experience in the culture of the 2x2s, which your current experts may not have. Second, she would have insights into the female psych that a male consultant may not have, especially into the 2x2 female psych. Third, when consulting with professionals, it helps to have a range of expertise in a subject. Most professionals will have a variety of points in agreement, a rouge professional will not. This way, you would know if you are receiving the most and the best current information available. As to why you should be willing to discuss the matter in an above-board manner: First, to demonstrate your care and concern for things being done in an informed and well-intentioned manner. Second, to show that you understand that serious matters like CSA are a concern for all, and cannot be hidden. Third, you will be legally advised to do these things. Fourth, you have always been a pioneering-type worker and now is a time to show that you can be a pioneer in communicating with everyone on serious matters for the 2x2s. This is easy and simple to answer. You and anyone else who has interest in the issue you raise need only reread the posts that Lynn C has made in this thread and read posts she makes under the other poster name she uses and you'll be able to understand why she is unable to be of any help to our ministry. We consult with discreet confidential non biased professionals of both sexes who have objectivity and integrity such that they would cringe and shake their heads in embarrassment if they were aware of the posts this lady makes...and claims to be a colleague of theirs. I was thinking Noels, IF the workers were to ever sit hidden and hear the "pain" that the young victims feel, would that not be a better "training"? Somehow the workers are still bypassing getting an understanding of the wreckage of a young innocent life that this crime makes of them...... perhaps if the workers were allowed to be married and were parents to children, then the fears and pain of the affected little ones' MIGHT, JUST MIGHT make a difference in how the workers see this crime. They don't seem to comprehend a lot about this crime.....all they can see is that a worker/elder may well have the rest of their life wrecked and they work extra hard to restore "a brother"...... It's too bad there isn't a way to "record" what a child does or does not do AFTER they've been violated....but the second best thing would be IF the workers would receive extensive training on being the "help" for those children.....this would give the workers NEW purpose and would help them get rid of those perps out of their ranks. The bible definitely says we are not to associate with those kind of people. And yes, I know Paul accepted the offender back into the group after his repentance...but the problem is when to know that the offender is really repentant. And I think that can be acsessed AFTER he/she stands convicted and serves time. |
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Post by sharonw on Apr 20, 2012 17:27:55 GMT -5
Sheesh! Ram! You sent me down the hall 2 doors on the right when you accused me of "thinking".....seems unfair that I can continue to "think" but Partaker isn't allowed!  ;D Well sharonw, that is my luck of the draw.  Yes, I'm sorry about that! Ram's getting crotchety in his old age, eh?  Me, too! Ram! |
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Post by sharonw on Apr 20, 2012 17:30:53 GMT -5
I respect other posters wish for anonymity but you won't need too many brains to be able to work what her other poster identity is. Or perhaps you already know and are just 'testing' and 'playing (tmb) games' with me? Lots of 'interesting' techniques and games played on TMB! Okay, following that lead I will not ask Lynn C what other name she might be using. I have not recognized any posts under another name that might have been written by Lynn C. So, apparently I am short of whatever amount of brains needed to recognize that. That includes me....though I remember not long ago, NOELS, accused another poster of having another posting name(s) and the truth of the matter that poster so accused told us that s(he) was not posting under another name at that given time, but had had a different handle sometime before that. I think Noels has caught the disease that seems to get ahold of all of us all sometimes on TMB..."speculation"! |
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2012 18:23:12 GMT -5
The bible definitely says we are not to associate with those kind of people. And yes, I know Paul accepted the offender back into the group after his repentance...but the problem is when to know that the offender is really repentant. And I think that can be acsessed AFTER he/she stands convicted and serves time. Sharon, the offender Paul mentioned had a consensual sexual relationship with his father's wife, presumably his stepmother. Paul was disgusted, as every Christian should be, with this report (what some on this board would classify as gossip). However, child sexual abuse is a far greater sin with far greater consequences in terms of damage to lives and souls. It would be interesting to know how the apostle Paul would react today to the child sexual abuse in this fellowship. I'm sure he would do more than run around "putting out fires" behind the scenes. I believe he would ensure that every professing Christian would be absolutely clear that child sexual abuse is evil, it destroys lives and souls, and it should never be once named amongst us. ========== ========== ========== ======= ====== 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. |
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Post by sharonw on Apr 20, 2012 18:28:55 GMT -5
The bible definitely says we are not to associate with those kind of people. And yes, I know Paul accepted the offender back into the group after his repentance...but the problem is when to know that the offender is really repentant. And I think that can be acsessed AFTER he/she stands convicted and serves time. Sharon, the offender Paul mentioned had a consensual sexual relationship with his father's wife, presumably his stepmother. Paul was disgusted, as every Christian should be, with this report (what some on this board would classify as gossip). However, child sexual abuse is a far greater sin with far greater consequences in terms of damage to lives and souls. It would be interesting to know how the apostle Paul would react today to the child sexual abuse in this fellowship. I'm sure he would do more than run around "putting out fires" behind the scenes. I believe he would ensure that every professing Christian would be absolutely clear that child sexual abuse is evil, it destroys lives and souls, and it should never be once named amongst us. ============================================================================= 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. I'd say that the case indicated above perhaps would or should have greater consequences then the CSA and that's according to the OT law. The two people that consented to that fornication would have been both "stoned to death". Whereas when a "virgin" or an "innocent little one" was violated, then the perpatrator would have been "stoned to death". That's according to the bible....for some reason we tend to not think of "consensual" sin as being as great as sin against some one vulnerable....and that is how the "law" in the US pretty much stands.....consensual fornication is very often not even batted an eye at.....but thankfully the law does speak strongly against child abuse in any form. I was thinking also what the bible says about consensual fornication....that when a person fornicates with someone not their own wife, etc...they sin against themself.....and I think that is true...a conscientious person who might have been tempted thus often can't forgive themself. |
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2012 18:30:00 GMT -5
I was thinking Noels, IF the workers were to ever sit hidden and hear the "pain" that the young victims feel, would that not be a better "training"? I agree Sharon, it is good training. Noels has listened to at least one victim that I know of, and I applaud him for that. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 20, 2012 19:01:01 GMT -5
The bible definitely says we are not to associate with those kind of people. And yes, I know Paul accepted the offender back into the group after his repentance...but the problem is when to know that the offender is really repentant. And I think that can be acsessed AFTER he/she stands convicted and serves time. Sharon, the offender Paul mentioned had a consensual sexual relationship with his father's wife, presumably his stepmother. Paul was disgusted, as every Christian should be, with this report (what some on this board would classify as gossip). However, child sexual abuse is a far greater sin with far greater consequences in terms of damage to lives and souls. It would be interesting to know how the apostle Paul would react today to the child sexual abuse in this fellowship. I'm sure he would do more than run around "putting out fires" behind the scenes. I believe he would ensure that every professing Christian would be absolutely clear that child sexual abuse is evil, it destroys lives and souls, and it should never be once named amongst us. ============================================================================= 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. I think Paul was surprised that they had not booted the sinner out and indicated in the future they for sure should. |
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Post by JO on Apr 20, 2012 19:18:02 GMT -5
.....consensual fornication is very often not even batted an eye at.....but thankfully the law does speak strongly against child abuse in any form. I think its unhelpful to include consensual fornication in a discussion on child sexual abuse. Its not that consensual fornication is acceptable for people professing godliness, but they're not in the same league. Child sexual abuse messes with the child's mind. They don't have the mental or sexual maturity to process what has happened. Symptoms of child sexual abuse differ according to the child, and a sceptic might even see some as contradictory, but the effects on a child are typically life-changing. No child should have to go through this. I wonder if prisoners attack child molesters because many of them have been sexually abused themselves as children. ======= ========= ========== ======= ====== Here's an interesting website run by a child sexual abuse victim: www.child-abuse-effects.com/sexual-abuse-effects.htmlEmotional and Physical Sexual Abuse Effects:Molested children suffer many losses, including: - self-esteem and self-worth
- trust
- childhood, including the opportunity to play and learn
- the opportunity for normal growth and development
- intimacy
- control over his/her body
- normal loving and nurturing
- safety and security
Behavioural Sexual Abuse Effects:- nightmares, phobias, and regressive behaviours such as thumb-sucking and bed-wetting
- learning problems
- clinging and smothering
- insecurity, which put the child at risk for further abuse and exploitation
- psychosomatic complaints such as stomachaches and headaches
- precocious sexual activity--a young child knows more than they should about sexual activity; child may exhibit seductive behaviour
FACT: 17% of abused children exhibit age inappropriate sexual behaviour (Trocme & Wolfe, 2001, p.283). FACT: Of the sexual abuse effects exhibited, sexualized behaviour is the most consistent indicator of sexual abuse (Cavanagh Johnson et. al., 1995, pp.50-514). - with young children, a preoccupation with sexual organs of self, parents and others--often this shows itself in language and art
- aggression and bullying behaviours
FACT: 14% of abused children exhibit behaviour problems (Trocme & Wolfe, 2001, p.285). - sudden changes in eating and/or sleeping habits
- depression and anxiety
FACT: 29% of abuse children exhibit depression or anxiety (Trocme & Wolfe, 2001, p.286). - refusal to change clothes in front of others
- isolation
- obsessively good behaviour
- obsessed with cleanliness
- relationship problems
FACT: 13% of abused children exhibit negative peer involvement (Trocme & Wolfe, 2001, p.287). - anti-social behaviour
- unwillingness to participate in social activities
- running away
FACT: 85% of runaways in Toronto have been sexually abused(Conference on Child Victimization & Child Offending, 20008). - truancy / long absence from school
FACT: 10% of abused children have irregular school attendance (Trocme & Wolfe, 2001, p.289). - long absence from participation in extracurricular activities
- dissociation--a child's existence is dependent on his/her ability to separate from the pain, which, in the most repulsive cases, may result in multiple personalities
- risky behaviours such as firestarting, stealing and other delinquencies
- animal cruelty
- alcohol and drug abuse
FACT: According to the Conference on Child Victimization & Child Offending (200010), sexual abuse effects on children with a history of molestation reflect that they are seven times more likely to become drug/alcohol dependent FACT: In a sexual abuse effects study of 938 adolescents admitted to residential, therapeutic communities for the treatment of substance abuse and related disorders, 64% of the girls and 24% of the boys reported histories of sexual abuse (Hawke, Jainchill, & DeLeon, 2000, pp.35-4711). - dysfunctional relationships
- avoiding confrontation
- self-harm, including cutting and burning
- paranoid behaviour
FACT: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is one of the sexual abuse effects that plague sexually abused children and adult survivors of child abuse. Symptoms experienced are similar to those experienced by Vietnam veterans and may include sleep disturbances, anxiety and depression, which negatively impact on their daily psychosocial functioning and for which many seek professional help (Wiehe, 1998, p.5012). - preoccupation with sex
- promiscuous behaviour
- compulsive and aggressive sexual behaviours
- self-destructive sexual behaviour and prostitution
FACT: 98% of female street youth in British Columbia reported being victims of physical or sexual abuse as compared to 32% of female youths in schools. 59% of male street youth reported being victims of physical or sexual abuse as compared to 15% of male youth in schools (Beauvais et al., 2001, p.6213). - in adulthood, sexual dysfunction--avoidance of or phobic reactions to sexual intimacy
- becomes the abuser
FACT: Studies done by Haywood, Kravitz, Wasyliw, Goldberg and Cavanaugh in 1996 reflect some disturbing sexual abuse effects. The study found that the odds of becoming a child molester were 5.43 times greater for adult male victims of childhood sexual abuse than for adult male non-victims (Lee, Jackson, Pattison, & Ward, 2002, p.8814). - attempted and completed suicide
FACT: Children with a history of sexual molestation are ten times more likely to attempt suicide (Conference on Child Victimization & Child Offending, 200015). Sexual abuse effects on the child or youth are connected to the child/youth's life before, during and after the sexual contact. We must understand that the effects apply every bit as much to the disclosure and intervention as it does to the abuse itself. Sexual abuse effects continue long after the abuse stops. |
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Post by What Hat on Apr 20, 2012 21:48:47 GMT -5
Well, hang on. While I agree in principle about that not being the main determinant, you can't just ignore this either. That '1 in 20' credible but false allegation can be incredibly devastating to the person who has lived through it. While publicity is necessary to protect children, due diligence has to be exercised in invoking disclosure procedures, and care has to be taken to explain that charges don't mean that the person is guilty. Incidentally, in this NZ case have charges been laid? What is the recommendation in the guidelines regarding disclosure if allegations have been made and no charges laid? This situation occurs frequently, I believe. Hey WHAT, I suggested we need to be thinking and you come back with: "Well, hang on." So you're thinking that thinking is a bad idea??? I think (if that's OK?) that I have as much compassion as anyone for the falsely accused. In posting as I did, I had in mind (oops, that's sort of like thinking) the persistent hand-wringing by a few on this board who are so fearful of a false accusation that they would have us do nothing about the child sexual abuse that causes so much hurt to vulnerable people in our fellowship. I would like everyone in the fellowship to understand that child sexual abuse is evil and not acceptable amongst us. We need to "think" about how that could be achieved. I have had no thought about your compassion one way or another. My focus is on the policies and guidelines which have to take note of the possibility of false accusation in dealing with child abuse. I'm trying to bring out that "only" 5% doesn't mean we can just ignore the problem either. I've lived through that issue, so I know it's real. But a couple of comments. 1) In many cases, open disclosure is better for the falsely accused than leaving it to the rumor mill. 2) Protecting children generally outweighs the rights of the accused, where one has to choose. |
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on Apr 20, 2012 22:10:07 GMT -5
After the friends learn how to deal with CSA, the next step is to learn how to deal with forgiveness of the offender and where possible, rehabilitation of the offender. I believe they won't get to the second stage until they get past the first. This reminds me that when my mother disclosed to the workers that my brother was an alcoholic the workers only solution was to tell him to profess again. I know of other cases where the workers were faced with similar situations and in each case the solution was for the person to profess again. That is also sweeping the problem under the carpet and not dealing with the real issue. Professing again fixes nothing as they were professing when they were involved in the behaviour before. Their resistance to professionals is seen by noels attitude towards me in which he wants to be seen as knowing it all and not one to be questioned. To profess again? Can't see how anyone could be helped through professing again - doesn't deal with the problem. Also I do not understand why noels is so against working with you on this issue in nz. You have the expertise in a professional way and also no of this religion. I guess they wouldn't be able to just sweep it under the carpet and would have deal with the offender in a way they deserve, what help does the poor victim get? I guess you are an "outsider" now so they don't want your help. Very sad. |
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Lynn C
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Post by Lynn C on Apr 20, 2012 23:00:28 GMT -5
I feel no need to change or retract any statement made in that nor any need to defend myself or refute a number of incorrect statements in this last post made by lynnc. I am unconcerned by posts made or perceptions held of me by this poster nor of the influence she may have on others who read this or other threads. I have tried without success to have meaningful or edifying dialogue with this poster and have been advised by a number that would be wise to avoid engaging in dialogue with her. There was nothing in my post that was incorrect. People are able to form their own opinions by your postings. You were not advised, I told you not to contact with me at my request. As you would not stop bullying me in private posts I asked a third party to tell you to stop contacting me. Not matter how much people tell you your posts are not good you just don't get it. The same with private posts, you were unable to see your own bullying tactics. You are not able to have a meaningful dialogue without put downs and bullying. Now lets get back to the topic at hand. NZ sex abuse issue. It would be difficult working with workers who would like to control the whole thing and are only interested in preserving their place in their fellowship. I would hope that you have a committee to deal with such a serious issue as sexual abuse in your church. This committee would need to consist of a variety of people. Some workers, some members, some outsiders, and some exes, some professionals and some lay people. Keeping it within the church is dangerous. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:17:54 GMT -5
We need to be thinking about the damage 19 perpetrators can do while we wring our hands over the possibility of one false accusation. Well, hang on. While I agree in principle about that not being the main determinant, you can't just ignore this either. That '1 in 20' credible but false allegation can be incredibly devastating to the person who has lived through it. While publicity is necessary to protect children, due diligence has to be exercised in invoking disclosure procedures, and care has to be taken to explain that charges don't mean that the person is guilty. Incidentally, in this NZ case have charges been laid? What is the recommendation in the guidelines regarding disclosure if allegations have been made and no charges laid? This situation occurs frequently, I believe. I have known of people who have killed themselves because of false allegations, not saying that it is false in the case of this man. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:20:29 GMT -5
After the friends learn how to deal with CSA, the next step is to learn how to deal with forgiveness of the offender and where possible, rehabilitation of the offender. I believe they won't get to the second stage until they get past the first. This reminds me that when my mother disclosed to the workers that my brother was an alcoholic the workers only solution was to tell him to profess again. I know of other cases where the workers were faced with similar situations and in each case the solution was for the person to profess again. That is also sweeping the problem under the carpet and not dealing with the real issue. Professing again fixes nothing as they were professing when they were involved in the behaviour before. Their resistance to professionals is seen by noels attitude towards me in which he wants to be seen as knowing it all and not one to be questioned. And then when they do more like you suggest you could very well be the one to say they interfere to much |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:29:07 GMT -5
Steffan, I cannot verify for you whether the said elder is still taking the meetings in his own home, or not. I do not know which case you are talking about. I do know that in some instances in NZ, where an elder has been guilty of some misdemeanour, that the meeting has been left in his home, but someone else steps in to give out the hymns. In one case I know of, a relative of a “guilty elder” told me that elder was not to take meetings in his home for a certain length of time, and in that time the workers in the area were to attend each week, so that the friends would not suspect any untoward behaviour having taken place! A certain humility WAS present for a few weeks, apparently. But later an even more tragic event that took place in that home came to light later, that has caused a lot of heartache, and has never been resolved in a satisfactory way. Punishment of that sort seems to miss the point somehow. To be honest, I find your other questions, while more general, equally as profound. Many here feel that since "his co-helper died a few years back", that fear of man has been playing an increasingly larger role, along with a certain lack of fear of man....a feeling of, I stand above it all, untouchable. The independent observation definitely has some truth in it. We know here of several situations where no action has been taken, for such reasons as..." It could affect his children if I put him out", or " His wife has enough to suffer, and she would suffer more if we took the meeting away" , or "The person with the misdemeanour has a difficult nature". And such reasons are reasons enough to do nothing We are living in scary times here. So- why doesn’t he act ? Out of fear? Out of caution? Out of wisdom? Out of pride? We cannot judge that completely. Or is there a complacent feeling that most friends will be nobly loyal whatever? Simon, I think I should clarify now that the man concerned, while still having the meeting in his home, is not actually taking that meeting. I am satisfied that this is correct. This contradicts what I mentioned in my opening post when I said he was still operating as 'elder'. I owe everybody here an apology for getting that point wrong at the outset. This is where wrong points can bring so much misery to people who have things said about them. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:30:58 GMT -5
Im not John!! Just thought I better correct that! Sorry, J! But with a handle of "jwatt" you're apt to get mistaken more then once! Another case of saying something for which no verification was sought  |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:34:08 GMT -5
Okay, following that lead I will not ask Lynn C what other name she might be using. I have not recognized any posts under another name that might have been written by Lynn C. So, apparently I am short of whatever amount of brains needed to recognize that. That includes me....though I remember not long ago, NOELS, accused another poster of having another posting name(s) and the truth of the matter that poster so accused told us that s(he) was not posting under another name at that given time, but had had a different handle sometime before that. I think Noels has caught the disease that seems to get ahold of all of us all sometimes on TMB..."speculation"! Do you think it might be a good idea to ask her if she uses another name on this board and if she posts under that name? You know just to get things straight. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:40:44 GMT -5
And then when they do more like you suggest you could very well be the one to say they interfere to much What a feeble excuse kiwi. My mother asked the workers for help and to do something as she was sick of them knowing there was an issue but pretending nothing was happening. I guess she should have known that they were not capable of helping. Their only help was to tell him to stop going to Sunday morning meeting, go to Gospel meetings, and profess again. They have also done this in the case of a women being abused and battered by her professing husband. The workers are way behind the general population in knowing how to handle any kind of issue. Most pastors have some form of counselling in their training. Training which the workers criticise pastors for. And again as you have in the past complained that they interfere to much, so another case of dammed if you do and damned if you don't. |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 20, 2012 23:43:17 GMT -5
It leaves 99% of the remainder of the post correct. You expect nothing to be said in case of the small chance something is wrong. No wonder people don't speak out in meetings about wrong. I guess people are not mind readers. There are 2 jwatts on this board although one uses another name. The first response of a number of people, even mods was that someone was using the first jwatts handle only to discover that there are 2 jwatts on here. Just another case of engaging mouth before brain in gear. |
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Post by quizzer on Apr 21, 2012 0:21:03 GMT -5
There are several reasons to consider working with Lynn C: First, she has experience in the culture of the 2x2s, which your current experts may not have. Second, she would have insights into the female psych that a male consultant may not have, especially into the 2x2 female psych. Third, when consulting with professionals, it helps to have a range of expertise in a subject. Most professionals will have a variety of points in agreement, a rouge professional will not. This way, you would know if you are receiving the most and the best current information available. As to why you should be willing to discuss the matter in an above-board manner: First, to demonstrate your care and concern for things being done in an informed and well-intentioned manner. Second, to show that you understand that serious matters like CSA are a concern for all, and cannot be hidden. Third, you will be legally advised to do these things. Fourth, you have always been a pioneering-type worker and now is a time to show that you can be a pioneer in communicating with everyone on serious matters for the 2x2s. This is easy and simple to answer. You and anyone else who has interest in the issue you raise need only reread the posts that Lynn C has made in this thread and read posts she makes under the other poster name she uses and you'll be able to understand why she is unable to be of any help to our ministry. We consult with discreet confidential non biased professionals of both sexes who have objectivity and integrity such that they would cringe and squirm in embarrassment if they were aware of the posts this lady makes...and claims to be a colleague of theirs. If she made such statements without the cover that the facility of anonymous posting on a forum offers I would think it would be within the realms of possibility that she would face disciplinary action from any professional body that she may belong to?.....any you ask why we don't consult with her?I don't see any reason for Lynn C to face any disciplinary actions. She's offered her services, you've insulted her, and now you're both upset. Kinda normal and acceptable. If you're not facing any disciplinary actions for your behavior, you can't ask Lynn to face disciplinary actions, either. Anyway, noels, the thread is about the NZ issue. Can the friends expect to hear the actions/decisions being made? How about daily updates on the situation, if the final decision hasn't been made? |
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on Apr 21, 2012 0:26:33 GMT -5
This is easy and simple to answer. You and anyone else who has interest in the issue you raise need only reread the posts that Lynn C has made in this thread and read posts she makes under the other poster name she uses and you'll be able to understand why she is unable to be of any help to our ministry. We consult with discreet confidential non biased professionals of both sexes who have objectivity and integrity such that they would cringe and squirm in embarrassment if they were aware of the posts this lady makes...and claims to be a colleague of theirs. If she made such statements without the cover that the facility of anonymous posting on a forum offers I would think it would be within the realms of possibility that she would face disciplinary action from any professional body that she may belong to?.....any you ask why we don't consult with her?I don't see any reason for Lynn C to face any disciplinary actions. She's offered her services, you've insulted her, and now you're both upset. Kinda normal and acceptable. If you're not facing any disciplinary actions for your behavior, you can't ask Lynn to face disciplinary actions, either. Anyway, noels, the thread is about the NZ issue. Can the friends expect to hear the actions/decisions being made? How about daily updates on the situation, if the final decision hasn't been made? I agree with quizzer and keep to what this is about, remember someone is suffering here |
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Post by JO on Apr 21, 2012 0:59:42 GMT -5
I have had no thought about your compassion one way or another. My focus is on the policies and guidelines which have to take note of the possibility of false accusation in dealing with child abuse. I'm trying to bring out that "only" 5% doesn't mean we can just ignore the problem either. I've lived through that issue, so I know it's real. But a couple of comments. 1) In many cases, open disclosure is better for the falsely accused than leaving it to the rumor mill. 2) Protecting children generally outweighs the rights of the accused, where one has to choose. If you're addressing me, you're preaching to the converted WHAT. I doubt there's any difference between your view and mine on this. There's an even bigger issue here than dealing with child sexual abuse in the past, and that is convincing ALL friends and workers that child sexual abuse should not be once named amongst us (and that doesn't mean we should cover it up when it occurs, it means it shouldn't occur at all). I think all the friends and workers would agree that murder is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Sadly, not all friends and workers understand that child sexual abuse is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Child sexual abuse can be as bad as murder in that it makes life a living hell for some victims, and some feel suicide is their only option. Why do some friends and workers think they can have sex with under-aged kids and serve God as well? Assuming the docrine of the church forbids child sexual abuse, why has this doctrine not been conveyed to all the members of the church? |
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Post by Greg on Apr 21, 2012 2:33:53 GMT -5
Can we stay on the subject? NZ sex issue?? We're not interested in who thinks what of whom! And now back to our regularly scheduled program.... Sorry.... This just in.....take it away, Kiwi.... |
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Post by kiwi on Apr 21, 2012 3:45:16 GMT -5
Do you think it might be a good idea to ask her if she uses another name on this board and if she posts under that name? You know just to get things straight. Another statement for which you cannot verify  Why do you say such things when they are so untrue? I knew who big paddle foot was long ago and I didn't need anyone to tell me either |
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mira
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Post by mira on Apr 21, 2012 5:12:23 GMT -5
Big paddle foot sounds like he'd be a good swimmer  |
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Post by Greg on Apr 21, 2012 5:36:36 GMT -5
Can we stay on the subject? NZ sex issue?? We're not interested in who thinks what of whom! Big paddle foot sounds like he'd be a good swimmer Apparently we are experiencing technical difficulties and receiving mixed signals. Please stand-by... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 5:46:17 GMT -5
Gosh!!!! There appears to be quite a lot of bad blood and bickering on this forum of late, but God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints....... There must be a much better way to discuss and resolve or, at least, try to resolve matters such as these. Looks like some folks are enjoying it. Maybe I am a dithering old fool, pay no attention to me, God is looking down.  |
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Post by What Hat on Apr 21, 2012 8:29:49 GMT -5
I have had no thought about your compassion one way or another. My focus is on the policies and guidelines which have to take note of the possibility of false accusation in dealing with child abuse. I'm trying to bring out that "only" 5% doesn't mean we can just ignore the problem either. I've lived through that issue, so I know it's real. But a couple of comments. 1) In many cases, open disclosure is better for the falsely accused than leaving it to the rumor mill. 2) Protecting children generally outweighs the rights of the accused, where one has to choose. If you're addressing me, you're preaching to the converted WHAT. I doubt there's any difference between your view and mine on this. There's an even bigger issue here than dealing with child sexual abuse in the past, and that is convincing ALL friends and workers that child sexual abuse should not be once named amongst us (and that doesn't mean we should cover it up when it occurs, it means it shouldn't occur at all). I think all the friends and workers would agree that murder is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Sadly, not all friends and workers understand that child sexual abuse is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Child sexual abuse can be as bad as murder in that it makes life a living hell for some victims, and some feel suicide is their only option. Why do some friends and workers think they can have sex with under-aged kids and serve God as well? Assuming the docrine of the church forbids child sexual abuse, why has this doctrine not been conveyed to all the members of the church? Well I agree with you, but I wasn't sure if you agreed with me. But you've hit on another issue, which is general awareness of the issue. Perhaps that old "denial/ anger/ acceptance" transition applies here. If it does it's still stuck somewhere on denial. The friends will say they know about this topic and are up to date, etc, but there is a large wall of excuses, rationalization. I know 'noels' means well on this thread, in saying that they are handling the issue, but when I look at what organizations like the Christian Reformed Church have done, and what the friends have done by comparison, there's a mile wide gap. www.crcna.org/pages/safechurch_index.cfmIf you showed that web link to 'most' of the friends, would they say, "Oh, there might be some good ideas there. They've already covered this issue, wonder what we could learn from that"? No, they would say, "that doesn't apply to us", "we don't operate like that here", "we don't have problems like that", and so on. At least those are the kinds of responses I have heard in relation to this problem, so it may sound critical but it's real. So general awareness and denial is a large problem, and it's going to be an issue for those workers who want to deal with this, also. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2012 9:50:14 GMT -5
If you're addressing me, you're preaching to the converted WHAT. I doubt there's any difference between your view and mine on this. There's an even bigger issue here than dealing with child sexual abuse in the past, and that is convincing ALL friends and workers that child sexual abuse should not be once named amongst us (and that doesn't mean we should cover it up when it occurs, it means it shouldn't occur at all). I think all the friends and workers would agree that murder is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Sadly, not all friends and workers understand that child sexual abuse is both illegal and unacceptable behaviour for people professing godliness. Child sexual abuse can be as bad as murder in that it makes life a living hell for some victims, and some feel suicide is their only option. Why do some friends and workers think they can have sex with under-aged kids and serve God as well? Assuming the docrine of the church forbids child sexual abuse, why has this doctrine not been conveyed to all the members of the church? Well I agree with you, but I wasn't sure if you agreed with me. But you've hit on another issue, which is general awareness of the issue. Perhaps that old "denial/ anger/ acceptance" transition applies here. If it does it's still stuck somewhere on denial. The friends will say they know about this topic and are up to date, etc, but there is a large wall of excuses, rationalization. I know 'noels' means well on this thread, in saying that they are handling the issue, but when I look at what organizations like the Christian Reformed Church have done, and what the friends have done by comparison, there's a mile wide gap. www.crcna.org/pages/safechurch_index.cfmIf you showed that web link to 'most' of the friends, would they say, "Oh, there might be some good ideas there. They've already covered this issue, wonder what we could learn from that"? No, they would say, "that doesn't apply to us", "we don't operate like that here", "we don't have problems like that", and so on. At least those are the kinds of responses I have heard in relation to this problem, so it may sound critical but it's real. So general awareness and denial is a large problem, and it's going to be an issue for those workers who want to deal with this, also. The advantage of following the "reporting of suspicion" to authorities is that "false accusations" don't occur privately. The suspicions go the authorities who investigate. Only when they find sufficient evidence to charge someone does someone actually get accused at that point. Of course real life is never so clean and clear cut, but it is a good goal to work toward. If we lived in a society that understood that it is a good thing that all suspicions are reported, even ones about ourselves, then no stigma will ever be attached to reports of suspicions. Innocent people should be able to welcome an investigation and the rest of society should hold back judgment until the investigation is complete. It doesn't quite work that way now but it would be a great way to go. |
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;D
