NZ Sex issue

[Deleted]

Edit by mod3:
Update on this situation, June 2012.
professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=19436

---

I recently had a visit with someone from New Zealand. He mentioned that he was angry and bitter (his words not mine) about the way a number of things were being addressed (or rather not being addressed) in NZ at present. This caught me a bit by surprise as , being a bystander watching things from afar, I had got the impression on this Board that if any part of Australasia was some sort of beacon in the troubled times of csa , it was NZ . Also, this fellow is usually so laid back…. but not this time.

One of the things he raised, and I have had verified independently since, is that an elder up the north of the country has abused young boys , that this is known by a fair percentage of the friends and workers, but that he continues as ever in his eldership with the matter itself unaddressed. I understand that the evidence of the abuse (via legal statements by a couple of the abused children) has been given to the overseer but no action has followed. Naturally a good number of the saints are feeling let down and discouraged as this goes on without any communication whatsoever.

As mentioned above I personally was surprised by this as my perception up to now has been that NZ had moved forward from the dark ages on such subjects.

I wonder if anyone is able to explain why in this instance the overseer in NZ hasn’t acted.
Is there any truth in an independent observation that the overseer backing off making decisions on problems is now becoming a more established pattern of his behaviour?
I am aware that his co helper died a few years back. It may be that without his help he has had a crisis in confidence on how to proceed- it maybe that he needs someone to help him act on this??
At the last workers meeting the brother workers of NZ went through the steps to take whenever csa cases arise (which most would applaud as being a proactive and positive thing to be discussing in such meetings). Is anyone able to confirm whether the steps taken in this particular case are in line or out of line with what the workers discussed at that meeting?

I am confused and bewildered where NZ is going with this – are any of the NZ saints/workers able to throw any light on what’s going on?

[Deleted]

Those are all good and valid questions to raise steffan.

Hopefully someone from NZ will be able to respond to these important questions: particularly the question of inaction about an abuser who may not be known to the parents of nearby vulnerable young children.

[Deleted]

Isn't this an old case I read about some time ago where the elder, who was a former worker, was put out of the work, subsequently got married, became an elder, has a family but continued to abuse and his own son blew the whistle on him? If my memory serves me correctly I believe that I read about that on this board a little while back. Does anyone else recall it? Of course it could be a different case altogether.

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2012 11:39:13 GMT -5 @partaker said:

Isn't this an old case I read about some time ago where the elder, who was a former worker, was put out of the work, subsequently got married, became an elder, has a family but continued to abuse and his own son blew the whistle on him? If my memory serves me correctly I believe that I read about that on this board a little while back. Does anyone else recall it? Of course it could be a different case altogether.

I had wondered if it was the same case too - as I remembered it from previous reading.
But, no. It's a different case- though the men are in a similar part of NZ by all accounts.

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2012 11:44:35 GMT -5 @steffan said:

Apr 18, 2012 11:39:13 GMT -5 @partaker said:

Isn't this an old case I read about some time ago where the elder, who was a former worker, was put out of the work, subsequently got married, became an elder, has a family but continued to abuse and his own son blew the whistle on him? If my memory serves me correctly I believe that I read about that on this board a little while back. Does anyone else recall it? Of course it could be a different case altogether.

I had wondered if it was the same case too - as I remembered it from previous reading.
But, no. It's a different case- though the men are in a similar part of NZ by all accounts.

Well I am gobsmacked.

[Deleted]

Noels
I will PM you now to find out what any incorrect points are.
If they are indeed incorrect I will be happy to point it out to the Board.

[Deleted]

Apr 18, 2012 11:52:32 GMT -5 @noels said:

Apr 18, 2012 11:12:48 GMT -5 @steffan said:

I recently had a visit with someone from New Zealand. He mentioned that he was angry and bitter (his words not mine) about the way a number of things were being addressed (or rather not being addressed) in NZ at present. This caught me a bit by surprise as , being a bystander watching things from afar, I had got the impression on this Board that if any part of Australasia was some sort of beacon in the troubled times of csa , it was NZ . Also, this fellow is usually so laid back…. but not this time.

One of the things he raised, and I have had verified independently since, is that an elder up the north of the country has abused young boys , that this is known by a fair percentage of the friends and workers, but that he continues as ever in his eldership with the matter itself unaddressed. I understand that the evidence of the abuse (via legal statements by a couple of the abused children) has been given to the overseer but no action has followed. Naturally a good number of the saints are feeling let down and discouraged as this goes on without any communication whatsoever.

As mentioned above I personally was surprised by this as my perception up to now has been that NZ had moved forward from the dark ages on such subjects.

I wonder if anyone is able to explain why in this instance the overseer in NZ hasn’t acted.
Is there any truth in an independent observation that the overseer backing off making decisions on problems is now becoming a more established pattern of his behaviour?
I am aware that his co helper died a few years back. It may be that without his help he has had a crisis in confidence on how to proceed- it maybe that he needs someone to help him act on this??
At the last workers meeting the brother workers of NZ went through the steps to take whenever csa cases arise (which most would applaud as being a proactive and positive thing to be discussing in such meetings). Is anyone able to confirm whether the steps taken in this particular case are in line or out of line with what the workers discussed at that meeting?

I am confused and bewildered where NZ is going with this – are any of the NZ saints/workers able to throw any light on what’s going on?

I am a NZ worker.


Perhaps you would like to contact me by pm?
I can positively confirm that is an incorrect statement.

I understand that the evidence of the abuse (via legal statements by a couple of the abused children) has been given to the overseer but no action has followed. Naturally a good number of the saints are feeling let down and discouraged as this goes on without any communication whatsoever.

This is an incorrect statement.
I will contact the Overseer and post here again once I have received an answer from him. However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit. We are doing things correctly here in NZ. Advice is sought from professionals as appropriate and where necessary. In consulting with a professional in such a matter recently he expressed appreciation for our way of handling CSA issues and said he wished all church groups that he dealt with handled them in such a manner.

Thanks Noels for your intervention which is re-assuring and much appreciated.
partaker.

[Deleted]

I am in dialogue with Noels and think this thread should not be pursued until certain points have been given a chance to be clarified and verified.

[sharonw]

Lynn C, as I mentioned in another thread there are some of the workers and friends that think all of this CSA issue just fits in with them being singled out for persecution and they are blessed to be persecuted and that the more persecution they are given in any regard makes more proof that they are the only true church.

I hear that often and I am astounded at the reasoning of some in regards to the CSA issue! It is really very bad attitude for the workers to use you or your professional standing as some kind of "threat" to the friends....that is really beyond being sensible!

[guilt]

Apr 18, 2012 16:17:42 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Lynn C, as I mentioned in another thread there are some of the workers and friends that think all of this CSA issue just fits in with them being singled out for persecution and they are blessed to be persecuted and that the more persecution they are given in any regard makes more proof that they are the only true church.

I hear that often and I am astounded at the reasoning of some in regards to the CSA issue! It is really very bad attitude for the workers to use you or your professional standing as some kind of "threat" to the friends....that is really beyond being sensible!

But entirely predictable.

I like this part....fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man

[kiwi]

Apr 18, 2012 15:48:50 GMT -5 Lynn C said:

Apr 18, 2012 12:48:15 GMT -5 @steffan said:

I am in dialogue with Noels and think this thread should not be pursued until certain points have been given a chance to be clarified and verified.

Do you mean bury it under the carpet and not let others who have also been sexually abused in NZ be aware of the issues and come out. This is probably just the tip of the ice berg. There is more than just this case of sexual abuse. A worker was accused of sexual abuse a number of years ago and he was just moved to another area by the workers. The worker is dead now.

A male worker sexually harassed a female worker of which nothing was ever done. There is plenty of historical sexual abuse in NZ I am sure. NZ is no different from other countries except our government pays for counseling of sexual abuse victims of which I work with many on a daily basis.

It is my understanding that the NZ CSA issue has only just recently begun to be discussed amongst workers following it being brought up on this board and WINGS the same as is happening in other parts of the world amongst workers. Prior to this nothing was done with regard to CSA in NZ by the workers. It is a recent development that the issue has begun to be dealt with. Tell me noels if it is only a recent development that CSA has begun to be discussed amongst workers in NZ? You have only been in NZ for the last 2 years noels and were away for 20 years prior to that so would you know all that has taken place over the years? With every one that comes out we know there are many more that don't come out.

I am a well known professional in the area of sexual abuse in NZ both in the Christian and non Christian field? I was also in meetings for 30 years and have family in it as well as being on this board. I have been doing a lot of work for the government for the last 20 years in regard to CSA in NZ and am an assessor for the government that deals in this for victims/survivors of CSA. I have run training courses for those training as professionals in the area of sexual abuse in churches.

The workers are well aware of my professional standing and I would have thought if the workers were serious about dealing with sexual abuse by workers in NZ maybe I would have been consulted in some small way for my input.

The only feedback that I have had regarding workers and those inside is from rumours that I because of my profession I have been accused of messing with exes minds because I wrote a book. Some one said they even left meetings because of what was being said about me in this regard.

Out come the one's who would do the opposite as to what Jesus would do.

[Scott Ross]

Out come the one's who would do the opposite as to what Jesus would do.

I am curious as to what you think Jesus would do concerning CSA in the ranks of ministers and elders of the church.

[Greg]

Apr 18, 2012 18:04:04 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

Out come the one's who would do the opposite as to what Jesus would do.

I am curious as to what you think Jesus would do concerning CSA in the ranks of ministers and elders of the church.

What whould he do? Hard to know.

What was his attitude?

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

[mira]

Couldn't agree more Greg. He would not tolerate it for a second.

[sharonw]

Apr 18, 2012 19:04:15 GMT -5 mira said:

Couldn't agree more Greg. He would not tolerate it for a second.

Precisely!

Furthermore, He would not have asked if they were His disciples first....He just would have not tolerated innocent children being violated!

[kiwi]

Apr 18, 2012 19:04:15 GMT -5 mira said:

Couldn't agree more Greg. He would not tolerate it for a second.

Yes that's right but He wouldn't have a big gossip session about it

[graceandtruth]

Steffan, I know you are in contact with Noels and that's good. However, I know that case you raised, fairly intimately, and as I see it, the only thing which you wrote which was incorrect, was that the elder was still in his elder role. No, the elder was stepped down, but meeting is still in his home. And the issue is NOT sorted out.

Noels, please say it as it is, and don't try and slide things around to fit the pretty image of all being sorted out. I applaud you for your loyalty, but I ask that you either speak the truth on a matter, or don't speak at all.

I know that most here, both within the fellowship and those who have left, really desperately need a worker who listens, and see's both sides and applies compassionate wisdom, to all situations. There is a huge gap waiting for this worker to step into the role.
Many around the world are crying out to be heard... not to speak out and be berated and corrected in a very tough schoolmaster manner.

Please see the need, Noels. You are in a very special position to help. You are doing so many proactive things in your ministry, which are helpful and I see God is blessing these things for you. The whole world needs workers who will listen with love and compassion, and I pray if it cannot be you, then God will remove you from this board, and raise someone up to will do this for Him, His Kingdom and all the hurting people world wide.

The NZ overseer is manipulating things all he can to keep the status quo of New Zealand's 'green, clean image'. Sadly, as the pressure of politics come more heavily upon him, he is succumbing to the "Pilate spirit".

Time to do some spring cleaning. Done in honesty, mercy and love, and no condemnation from onlookers, this would be the most healthy alternative.

The NZ house of the fellowship needs all it's rugs shaken and cleaned, so there are no secrets and we again thrive in total openness, honesty and truth.

We have Scott and Clearday who are both compassionate and doing a very good service in this area, but there is still a gap waiting to be filled which only a worker can fill. These three would make a very good team and I propose many situations raised on this board,would not escalate into the grief and sorrow they have, if we had an honest, caring team. My prayers are for this vacancy to be filled. May it be you, Noels.

[Lynn C]

If the issue had been dealt with by the overseer (or head workers as they are called in NZ), then part of dealing with it would be to inform the victims and people in the church of what has been done.

If they are being accountable for CSA then the people in meetings would know or is it still being kept secret amongst the workers and offender. Seems like there is still no accountability to the people or victims. For too long it has been kept quiet.

Speaking out about sexual abuse is nothing about gossip. I have to wonder if it is the fellowship you are trying to protect kiwi, or the victims out there.

Noels says "However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit..."

As I said above, you have not been around for years to know if this has been the case.

[eyedeetentee]

Things in NZ have sex? Or is it that they don't know how? How is sex an issue in NZ?

[graceandtruth]

Of course I will, Noels. I would be very happy to know that what I know is incorrect, or is in the past, and something good is coming of it.

[faune]

Apr 18, 2012 20:11:03 GMT -5 Lynn C said:

If the issue had been dealt with by the overseer (or head workers as they are called in NZ), then part of dealing with it would be to inform the victims and people in the church of what has been done.

If they are being accountable for CSA then the people in meetings would know or is it still being kept secret amongst the workers and offender. Seems like there is still no accountability to the people or victims. For too long it has been kept quiet.

Speaking out about sexual abuse is nothing about gossip. I have to wonder if it is the fellowship you are trying to protect kiwi, or the victims out there.

Noels says "However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit..."

As I said above, you have not been around for years to know if this has been the case.

Lynn C ~ I share your same opinion concerning CSA actually being dealt with by overseers in NZ. If things were honestly dealt with as they professed, the friends would have been amply informed as to what took place and the end result of the allegations and actions being taken ~ not some hush-up of the whole matter entirely, treating it like it never happened!

[kiwi]

Apr 18, 2012 20:11:03 GMT -5 Lynn C said:

If the issue had been dealt with by the overseer (or head workers as they are called in NZ), then part of dealing with it would be to inform the victims and people in the church of what has been done.

If they are being accountable for CSA then the people in meetings would know or is it still being kept secret amongst the workers and offender. Seems like there is still no accountability to the people or victims. For too long it has been kept quiet.

Speaking out about sexual abuse is nothing about gossip. I have to wonder if it is the fellowship you are trying to protect kiwi, or the victims out there.

Noels says "However with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit..."

As I said above, you have not been around for years to know if this has been the case.

Not trying to protect anyone this is just another case of being on the band wagon all up shouting away with him
The only one I know of here who has ever been concerned with the truth is Scott and not going of half cocked blathering all over the place.
But I suppose people cannot wait to accuse instead of waiting for noels to return with said information, but we know then no matter what information he delivers there will be those who will not believe.
oh well God knows no matter what others say.

[Greg]

Apr 19, 2012 1:47:52 GMT -5 kiwi said:

Not trying to protect anyone ...

I think that can happen....trying to protect someone. For me one time when I had a complaint I was cut off with "so&so is a friend of mine and of good report among the brethren". Didn't matter what I had to say. So, I think it can happen. And sometimes I think there is just doubt even when a complaint is made. "So&so would never, could never do that."

Further is I think there is misunderstanding about the nature of some crime/sin/behavior or at least has been in the past. Many people do not have to go about everyday thinking "only 1800 calories today" or "I will not drink today" or "I will not steal today" or "I will not abuse today". Some people do and some people really should.

I think the good report and the reputatuion and the position/office and the mostly known public behavior of some weighed too heavily in the moving around of abuser and the giving of second and third and perhaps more chances to "repent". And yes, there could have been some "silent" protecting of the esteeem of the ministry.

Those with a behavorial problem need a support system and not the "I am sorry (to the leaders) and it won't happen again."

What to do with an abuser that is made known? When you read the name "Ira" what comes to your mind? A man who gave years to a ministry? A man deemed qualified for overseership? Or some other mental picture? And in these current days, when you read the name "Jerome" what comes to your mind?

How would you feel listening to one preach? Or give testimony? Or even just sit across from you or next to you in meeting? In someplaces a divorced and remarried person is made silent in the church? Is that appropriate for the others?

As for the abused, I think they need not be identified. "Oh, s/he is the one that was abused by that elder/worker." Hard to make that go away. This might contribute to the low profile of some abuse cases - protect the victim. And maybe the powers that be know or think the abuser needs to be protected, too - from the "friends". Yet, the peace and welfare of the friends - especially the children - must not be compromised. Even if the ministry and church suffers shame.

[Lynn C]

Most churches have a policy for dealing with sexual abuse. I wonder if the workers consulted other churches to get an idea of their policy or are trying to do it on their own. Many churches are far more experienced in dealing with CSA (Childhood sexual abuse) than the workers where it is only a new field for them.

It is one thing to have a policy but it is another to actually put it honestly into practice. Saying and doing are often two different things. Seems like the workers one is not working if people are not being informed of progress. Keeping the meeting in the man's home shows carelessness. It is a new area for the workers and mistakes are bound to be made as they struggle with the issue. That is why it is important for them to liaison with other churches on the matter.

Dealing with an offender is a very skilled area of work, perhaps the most skilled and a lot of damage can be done as the offender is usually far smarter than other people. They often go on to offend again and go to an even greater measure to not get caught. The wrong kind of help can do more damage than good. The workers are certainly not equipped to work with any offender.

I dont' buy the comment by noels that "We are doing things correctly here in NZ". What is doing things correctly? We should be always learning new things. There is no cut and dried way, one should alway be open be learning and open to change.

Wonder if the workers advised the victims to go to the police or if they are trying to handle it themselves - i.e. cover it up.

Any policy should involve informing the people so that other victims can come forward and so that people are aware of children around the offender.

[landdownunder]

Apr 18, 2012 22:27:54 GMT -5 eyedeetentee said:

Things in NZ have sex? Or is it that they don't know how? How is sex an issue in NZ?

Must admit the notion is a total shock and surprise to me also.

(playing in my mind a haunting flute solo for Greg Ham...)

[emmarr75]

Sad to read the news of Greg's passing today. I had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of years ago.

[Linford Bledsoe]

Apr 18, 2012 18:04:04 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

Out come the one's who would do the opposite as to what Jesus would do.

I am curious as to what you think Jesus would do concerning CSA in the ranks of ministers and elders of the church.

First of all know if it's true.

[Deleted]

Apr 19, 2012 3:51:40 GMT -5 Greg said:

Apr 19, 2012 1:47:52 GMT -5 kiwi said:

Not trying to protect anyone ...

I think that can happen....trying to protect someone. For me one time when I had a complaint I was cut off with "so&so is a friend of mine and of good report among the brethren". Didn't matter what I had to say. So, I think it can happen. And sometimes I think there is just doubt even when a complaint is made. "So&so would never, could never do that."

Further is I think there is misunderstanding about the nature of some crime/sin/behavior or at least has been in the past. Many people do not have to go about everyday thinking "only 1800 calories today" or "I will not drink today" or "I will not steal today" or "I will not abuse today". Some people do and some people really should.

I think the good report and the reputatuion and the position/office and the mostly known public behavior of some weighed too heavily in the moving around of abuser and the giving of second and third and perhaps more chances to "repent". And yes, there could have been some "silent" protecting of the esteeem of the ministry.

Those with a behavorial problem need a support system and not the "I am sorry (to the leaders) and it won't happen again."

What to do with an abuser that is made known? When you read the name "Ira" what comes to your mind? A man who gave years to a ministry? A man deemed qualified for overseership? Or some other mental picture? And in these current days, when you read the name "Jerome" what comes to your mind?

How would you feel listening to one preach? Or give testimony? Or even just sit across from you or next to you in meeting? In someplaces a divorced and remarried person is made silent in the church? Is that appropriate for the others?

As for the abused, I think they need not be identified. "Oh, s/he is the one that was abused by that elder/worker." Hard to make that go away. This might contribute to the low profile of some abuse cases - protect the victim. And maybe the powers that be know or think the abuser needs to be protected, too - from the "friends". Yet, the peace and welfare of the friends - especially the children - must not be compromised. Even if the ministry and church suffers shame.

Good post Greg.

The desire to protect is a huge problem which leaves gaping holes of vulnerability. This is particularly a problem with regard to future victims. We can't see future victims, we don't know who they are, so our desire to protect what we can see takes precedent.

When there is a known offender in a group, children become extremely vulnerable when their parents don't know about the heightened risks associated with an offender. CSA offenders are different than many criminals because a lot of them are compelled to do what they did and are frequently thinking about the next victim, planning, grooming, establishing themselves as trustworthy in the eyes of the parents and child etc. That's why there is a need for parents to know about an offender who is close to them.

In the meeting situation, it is the responsibility of the workers and elders to inform those who "need to know". Specifically, that means the parents of children who would be in contact with the offender through the meeting system.

Taking away hymn-announcing duties is practically useless and without value in terms of eliminating the risks of children. Even moving a meeting out to another home is at best a minimal risk-reducer. The only way to significantly reduce risk is to inform the "need to know" people in the meetings with the offender. That may not be an easy or pleasant task, particularly when offenders are, as Greg suggests, often intelligent and affable people, or even more difficult, is when the offender knows about a lot of other hidden problems in the church and can threaten to cause trouble. All of these concerns must be overridden in favour of informing parents with vulnerable children. Knowledge will save them. Anything less makes those in charge as accessories to any future crime.

There is a "need to know" section in the CSA Guidelines.