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Post by sharonw on Apr 22, 2012 10:47:21 GMT -5
Have you experienced the court systems for yourself? How can you judge that the abuse cases in the civil/family court were not relevant to the safety of the child? As in my case the allegation came out at the beginning of lengthy court proceedings and the father had been grooming the child since the marriage break up. Who are you to make the judgement that allegations are only made for monetary or custody purposes. Making an allegation is very stressful and upsetting and certainly not something one would choose to do for their own benefit. This is a common mistake the layman makes about custody proceedings - making presumptions based on what they hear not what they experience. BTW, Ram's had a lot of "legal" experience....so be assured his viewpoint via that avenue are "correct" at least for where he lives and he usually makes that clear. I just wanted to reassure you!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 10:57:35 GMT -5
A very nice platitude CD, until it happens to you. I know first hand of the pain and devastation that occurs to the individual and the family when a false (and mostly vindictive) accusation is made. The stain it leaves behind never goes away. I know first hand what it is to be accused of making a false accusation by a so called elder and his wife about his son; all he was interested in was protecting themselves and their son not their Grandchildren. This was during marital court proceedings and the child told me what happened then refused to open up to the police. Evidence needs to be physical: photos, video or bodily trauma before police will even take accusations further. The ex inlaws are still trying to clear their sons name; they couldn't care less about the victim who will always now have the realization that they were abused by their father. For those on here to say CSA unsubstantiated cases are common in divorce proceedings is naive and ignorant. It is a very sensitive topic and distressing for all involved. That is a unique and worthwhile perspective Wanda. Fred worries about the effects of false accusations. You rightly point out the effects of true accusations which lead to accusations of false accusations.....and how traumatic that can be. Justice, and doing what is right is never simple and easy which is why so many injustices never come to light.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2012 10:57:58 GMT -5
Have you experienced the court systems for yourself? How can you judge that the abuse cases in the civil/family court were not relevant to the safety of the child? As in my case the allegation came out at the beginning of lengthy court proceedings and the father had been grooming the child since the marriage break up. Who are you to make the judgement that allegations are only made for monetary or custody purposes. Making an allegation is very stressful and upsetting and certainly not something one would choose to do for their own benefit. This is a common mistake the layman makes about custody proceedings - making presumptions based on what they hear not what they experience. I have considerable experience of the criminal court system in my own country and more than the average amount of experience with the civil court system. It was part of my job for 30 years to distinguish between what was the business of the criminal courts and what applied to the civil courts. It stands to reason that any genuine allegations of "criminal" child abuse is a matter "primarily" for the criminal courts NOT the civil courts who do not deal with criminal matters. However, civil court matters may arise from matters which have been progressed through the criminal court system, or any criminal matters may later form part of civil court proceedings. Crimes are reported to the criminal courts. The civil courts deal with civil disputes (or not so civil) between two parties eg husband and wife who are seeking divorce and or custody of their children. That is where the gain is to be made! A divorce, an appropriate or greater share of the spoils, or custody of children. Do you appreciate the difference between criminal and civil courts? Was the case you mention about the father grooming a criminal court case or a civil court case, or was it the former followed by the other?
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on Apr 22, 2012 13:26:52 GMT -5
And again as you have in the past complained that they interfere to much, so another case of dammed if you do and damned if you don't. since the workers are NOT trained to counsel or advise anyone outside of the scriptural things, they would most likely feel "damned if we do and damned if we don't". That is very true for the reason they "often try" to help and it boomerangs on them and that is because they do not have training to "protect" their personal feelings, etc. That said, it is really a stupid thing for any one within the fellowship to expect the workers to advise them, counsel them in regards to the trials and troubles of life. Most times the workers would have NO personal experience in these things NOR do they have the training to help others and protect themselves. So I can't always want to blame the workers for NOT trying but I do find it that I blame the workers to try when they know full well that what is being asked of them is something they are NOT trained to do. The workers do need to refuse, but it is hard when they know the person asking worships the ground they walk on....this worker worship is very harmful in more ways then one. God's only true servants is a title that is harmful to any person who works under that thought! IMO And this is why these cases of csa need to go through the police and to the experienced people who deal with these sitatuions like LynnC offered.
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wanda
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Post by wanda on Apr 22, 2012 18:00:32 GMT -5
Experience in the legal system for 30 years: as a professional. Have you ever been involved personally where a child or grandchild has been abused?
A certain level of detachment is necessary in the legal profession and there is a distinct lack of compassion towards victims and families however if put in a position themselves personally I'm sure the level of understanding wouldbe greatly increased.
My point - whether civil or criminal - every accusation of CSA should be taken seriously and acknowledged rather than placed in a broad sweeping view that those involved have ulterior motives and something vindictive against the person accused.
A lack of compassion is sadly all too common in the legal system.
The only way to get justice is to ensure there is Adequate evidence of the offense and to take the allegation to the police.
The workers will always be seeking to cover things up and protect the church.
A good example of this is the catholic church where they had a culture of hidden abuse and victims came forward yet the church did nothing - all this can be read at the broken rites site.
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Post by JO on Apr 22, 2012 18:23:58 GMT -5
No I don't believe they have contact with the victims The victims in the OP were sexually abused by an elder in good standing with the church who they should have been able to trust. The church should take responsibility for supporting those boys, helping them to see that the church neither condones, nor tries to hide, child sexual abuse.
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on Apr 23, 2012 1:53:05 GMT -5
Has this been dealt with in the correct manner or has it just been allowed to continue? Children suffering just to save a churchs name. We seem to hear this happening more and more often within religious groups.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 2:53:33 GMT -5
Experience in the legal system for 30 years: as a professional. Have you ever been involved personally where a child or grandchild has been abused? I have had more than my fair share of first hand involvement with investigations which has taught me how to be compassionate and understanding with victims and where appropriate, with the perpertrators as well. I think my historical discussions on this board will stand me in good stead with that!A certain level of detachment is necessary in the legal profession and there is a distinct lack of compassion towards victims and families however if put in a position themselves personally I'm sure the level of understanding wouldbe greatly increased. A certain level of detachment is necessary with many sensitive and traumatic incidents, but only in order to get the job done in a professional way. I would disagree with the rest of your statement, at least in respect of my own personal experiences. Yes some people lack empathy and sympathy, but often that is a result of their own make up, not so much through detachment. My point - whether civil or criminal - every accusation of CSA should be taken seriously and acknowledged rather than placed in a broad sweeping view that those involved have ulterior motives and something vindictive against the person accused. Then you don't have any knowledge or experience of the civil court system. Just ask yourself why "few" cases which are raised in the civil courts and were not previously dealt with in the criminal courts are ever referred to the criminal judicial system. Whilst there will be genuine cases which for one reason or another have not been reported for criminal investigation the majority are an abuse of civil law procedure.
It is the responsibility of the criminal courts to deal with criminal matters, especially csa or other forms of child abuse. If a case has previously been dealt with under the criminal judicial process the end result can hugely benefit a subsequent case. Lawyers know this. What do you think they would be advising their clients to do if a matter had not been previously reported to the authorities? The truth is that in civil procedure lawyers often put their clients up to creating or imagining, or grossly exaggerating circumstances in order to achieve the result they are aiming for.A lack of compassion is sadly all too common in the legal system. That happens. It also happens everywhere else. Some quarters of this board are good (or bad) examples.The only way to get justice is to ensure there is Adequate evidence of the offense and to take the allegation to the police. Now you're talking! That's what the criminal court system is for.The workers will always be seeking to cover things up and protect the church. The mainstream maybe. There are some good signs, but far from enough. A change in attitude is what is necessary.A good example of this is the catholic church where they had a culture of hidden abuse and victims came forward yet the church did nothing - all this can be read at the broken rites site. I'll leave this to the Catholics to sort out.
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Post by JO on Apr 23, 2012 4:39:04 GMT -5
Some refer to this church as "the truth"? Since that time, the remaining elders have actively informed “need to know” parties about the accused’s past offences and the possibility of his reoffending. In particular parents of young boys living in the area and/or moving into the area have been informed. The issue here is a man in the north of NZ who is a known CSA offender who has a meeting in his home and meets with children whose parents are unaware of his past. Noels, surely you cannot support that? The very LEAST thing that should happen is a letter to every parent in the area advising them of this mans past. I am in dialogue with Noels and think this thread should not be pursued until certain points have been given a chance to be clarified and verified. Will someone report back, or will the whole issue be swept back under the carpet again?
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Post by Rob Sargison on Apr 23, 2012 5:00:15 GMT -5
. Btw: Rob S this is not the same man you’re referring to in your post. Yes, I am aware of that. The point I was making was how will this case be handled as compared to the other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2012 7:53:47 GMT -5
This case goes back over several decades and at the time a group of concerned elders met together and confronted the accused. The accused expressed sincere remorse and gave assurances that the offending would never re-occur. None of the known victims at the time wished to press charges. Since that time, the remaining elders have actively informed “need to know” parties about the accused’s past offences and the possibility of his reoffending. In particular parents of young boys living in the area and/or moving into the area have been informed. It’s my understanding that the workers were not involved with this initial action and it is possible that they were not aware of the accused’s offending. The group of elders acted with a sincere desire to protect children, their motives were pure, and their actions were spirit led. In more recent years a number of workers have been made aware of the situation and this has resulted in the man being removed from the position of elder and also from him being requested not to stay overnight on the convention grounds. If this man has not re-offended in recent years then I believe that the actions taken thus far are enough. However, if this man has broken the assurances that he made to the elders and has re-offended, then the victims need the full support of the elders and the workers and the case must without question be referred to the Police to handle. I’m confident that the original group of elders would support this (unfortunately a number of them have since passed on) and I pray that the current elders and workers will have the strength to do what is right. Btw: Rob S this is not the same man you’re referring to in your post. Perhaps you would be so kind as to provide RobS or JO with verification that the "need to know" people are informed of this. Verification is important because of two things: .. conflicting information that the "need to know" people have reported to others that they do not know, and ..the fact that the above description is atypical of how the F&Ws resolve sexual abuse cases.
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Post by JO on Apr 23, 2012 14:42:53 GMT -5
This is an incorrect statement. I will contact the Overseer and post here again once I have received an answer from him. What part of the statement is incorrect?
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Post by JO on Apr 23, 2012 16:43:07 GMT -5
These two cases are closely related and I understand that removal from convention grounds applies to both men. In the interests of clarity, they do attend meetings and have meals on the convention grounds, but don't stay on the grounds.
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Post by JO on Apr 24, 2012 3:03:47 GMT -5
Thankfully secular authorities take child sexual abuse seriously: ----------------- --------------------------- ---------------------- ------------------- www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbcri/364661656-Sexual-abuse-victims-ask-to-release-offender-s-nameSexual abuse victims ask to publicise offender's name Victims of what a judge has described as chilling sexual abuse by a Christchurch man have asked his name to be made public. Dennis Aubrey Newell was sentenced this morning in the Christchurch District Court for eight charges of sexually abusing young children in the early 1980s. The 70-year-old was given eight years, six months jail for offending on children aged under 12 at the time. Judge Paul Kellar told the court Dennis Newell's case has some chilling aspects, including that he continues to deny the offending.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 7:17:34 GMT -5
@clearday: I'd be happy to verify with JO and Rob S or anyone else effected by this that I am amongst those who have been warned about this man because I was a possible target for him. I'm glad to say that because of the awareness, I was saved from becoming a victim. Thanks. I am glad you were warned because that is the way it needs to be for people who may be vulnerable. Are you saying that because you were warned about this person, then that is verification that others are being systematically warned? You say you are "amongst those" who were warned. Just to clarify the above question, I will explain why I asked it that way. I understand that with a high degree of certainty that certain specific parents in the area with vulnerable children who have a relationship with this person, have no idea that they need to protect their children. I believe you in recounting your own experience, but your belief that vulnerable people are being warned does not line up with other information. How about this possibility? Is it possible that the local elders stopped doing their duty to warn others once the workers got involved and set some restrictions? Let's hope there are not more victims out there right now because of a failure to warn parents with young children.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 7:31:30 GMT -5
Rongo, here is another problem with this case.
There are people who know a little of this situation but understand it to be inappropriate behaviour in a mild way. To put it this way, if you were told that this was the "offense", you would not be highly motivated to protect your children around this person. This sort of "warning" may be worse than no warning at all. In fact, if you liked the person, you would be inclined to be protective and cover up.
Your overseer, however, knows how horrific these offenses are. Taking away hymn announcing duties and restricting overnight stays at convention is not enough, not even close. The latter is good, but the former is nearly useless and more must be done.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2012 8:51:57 GMT -5
Clearday, I think we’re in agreement here. Please don’t doubt that I’d like to see justice served. I’m not an apologist for this man, nor do I answer for the responsibilities of the elders or the workers. I simply wanted it to be known that there are and have been those in the faith who have sought to protect the children. To answer your questions: I know for certain of three other families who met with this man who were warned of his tendencies. It is a possibility that the current local elders have not continued to warn families (it was a previous generation of elders that I referred to in my original post – hence the reference to some passing on and also my hope that the current generation can do the right thing). I certainly hope that there haven’t been any further victims. I look forward to hearing back from steffan and noels and to this whole situation being sorted out. Thanks rongo. I appreciate your candidness. I'm sure you can see my concern about your post as it gave the impression that people with vulnerable children were being systematically informed. This is not the case. It is certainly appreciated that this has been done with some families in the past but this really needs to be re-visited. There doesn't need to be a lot of publicity about this nor any hysteria. Since the workers are apparently not doing anything about informing the people who need to know and the elders apparently are, in my view one elder should have the responsibility to make sure this happens. That way, vulnerable people won't fall through the cracks because everyone who cares thinks someone else is taking care of this.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Apr 25, 2012 7:55:07 GMT -5
rob S: Sorry, my mistake with regards to the point you were making - yes, good point. These two cases are closely related and I understand that removal from convention grounds applies to both men. As I see it the best thing for the victims, the families and the church would be for the accused to simply present themselves to the police with whatever confession they may have to make. They are gutless wonders. pedophiles and predators. Where are the men of valour who have courage to stand up and sort out this problem. Men who call themselves men of God should be dealing with this quickly. This has gone on for years.
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on Apr 25, 2012 13:22:59 GMT -5
rob S: Sorry, my mistake with regards to the point you were making - yes, good point. These two cases are closely related and I understand that removal from convention grounds applies to both men. As I see it the best thing for the victims, the families and the church would be for the accused to simply present themselves to the police with whatever confession they may have to make. They are gutless wonders. pedophiles and predators. Where are the men of valour who have courage to stand up and sort out this problem. Men who call themselves men of God should be dealing with this quickly. This has gone on for years.So true shushy
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Apr 25, 2012 15:53:40 GMT -5
Children are helpless victims terrorised by the predators.
Im begining to think the religious brain washing has something to do with the way it has not been handled correctly.
That guy should have been made an example of in the 70's. Excommunicated after public exposure.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 25, 2012 16:50:54 GMT -5
JO and Shushy When presented with facts that prove you have made false incorrect statements. Will you retract them and apologize to the parties who are slandered by the statements you post? noels, Both JO and shushy are concerned with the treatment of CSA cases in NZ. I don't blame them - it's a cause for concern. However, we both know that JO and shushy will be open to discuss the current situation in NZ. Instead of attacking, could you tell us all what is occurring in NZ to deal with CSA cases? Thank you, because this is very necessary, quizzer
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Post by JO on Apr 25, 2012 17:09:41 GMT -5
JO and Shushy When presented with facts that prove you have made false incorrect statements. Will you retract them and apologize to the parties who are slandered by the statements you post? Sure, please go ahead and post the facts and I will retract any false or incorrect statements and apologise on the thread on which they were made. Please tell me that all the children in the district are safe and that all known victims have received apologies for the abuse suffered, and support in dealing with it.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 25, 2012 17:48:45 GMT -5
The friends and workers need not only to protect children from abuse, but be seen to protect the children. One church that I'm familiar with has established three mandates in order to provide a safe environment and fight the forces of violence, disrespect and abuse that threaten them. These are: "to provide education to church members regarding issues surrounding abuse, to support those affected by abuse, and to offer thean Advisory Panel Process in cases of allegations against a church leader." www.crcna.org/pages/safechurch_index.cfmHow are the friends doing in these three areas in New Zealand?
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Post by JO on Apr 25, 2012 18:24:36 GMT -5
Children are helpless victims terrorised by the predators.
Im begining to think the religious brain washing has something to do with the way it has not been handled correctly.
That guy should have been made an example of in the 70's. Excommunicated after public exposure.Shushy, I would lean towards mercy for the perpetrators but they have overstepped a red line and should know that there are consequences. There have been some ruined lives as a result of their actions. Interestingly, people have been asked to "profess again" for much less than this. I wouldn't recommend excommunication, but continued cover-up doesn't line up with the following scripture: James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2012 18:53:50 GMT -5
Children are helpless victims terrorised by the predators.
Im begining to think the religious brain washing has something to do with the way it has not been handled correctly.
That guy should have been made an example of in the 70's. Excommunicated after public exposure.Shushy, I would lean towards mercy for the perpetrators but they have overstepped a red line and should know that there are consequences. There have been some ruined lives as a result of their actions. Interestingly, people have been asked to "profess again" for much less than this. I wouldn't recommend excommunication, but continued cover-up doesn't line up with the following scripture: James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. I think that is the right approach JO. I'm not in favour of the old "hang 'em, then give 'em a fair trial" method, tempting though that can be with child predators. Justice should be done and seen to be done, but it has to be tempered with compassion. "I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice." Abraham Lincoln
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Post by JO on Apr 25, 2012 20:54:59 GMT -5
...with assurance I can say that each and every instance of CSA allegation made to the ministry in New Zealand is fully looked into and dealt with according to standards that are right in the sight of God and man and will stand open audit. We are doing things correctly here in NZ. With regard to the concerns expressed in the OP, would it be appropriate to bring the victims and the victims' families up to speed on progress so far? Do the victims have as much right to know as the auditors you referred to?
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mira
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Post by mira on Apr 25, 2012 22:28:31 GMT -5
Noels,
This thread is now 9 pages long and has been viewed almost 4500 times as I write this. Can you please repeat what you see as incorrect statements made by others. Is it possible that you may not have all of the correct facts? As far as I understand, there are children who are in danger as we speak. Can you categorically deny that?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2012 0:42:15 GMT -5
The correct action is to inform the Police. Has this been done?. These matters need to be handled by the Police, not by God.
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