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Post by quizzer on May 21, 2012 9:27:30 GMT -5
These cultural characteristics are nothing less than the fruits of adverse cultic influences at work within the system. There is no other logical explanation. Honestly, the need for child sacrifice usually shows that there is something being worshipped that is considered far, far greater than what is being sacrificed. In the case of the 2x2s, it's the work and workers that are considered more important than the children. How this resounds with a God that loves all, especially children, is a mystery to me. |
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Post by jwatt on May 21, 2012 21:56:36 GMT -5
These cultural characteristics are nothing less than the fruits of adverse cultic influences at work within the system. There is no other logical explanation. Honestly, the need for child sacrifice usually shows that there is something being worshipped that is considered far, far greater than what is being sacrificed. In the case of the 2x2s, it's the work and workers that are considered more important than the children. How this resounds with a God that loves all, especially children, is a mystery to me. Have to agree with you quizzer it seems the children are the least concern for the workers. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 2:49:47 GMT -5
Honestly, the need for child sacrifice usually shows that there is something being worshipped that is considered far, far greater than what is being sacrificed. In the case of the 2x2s, it's the work and workers that are considered more important than the children. How this resounds with a God that loves all, especially children, is a mystery to me. Have to agree with you quizzer it seems the children are the least concern for the workers. Personally I don't think children enter into things at all, or even the concerns of the majority of the friends. The cultural Earthly focus is on the workers and only the workers. It is about their support and their approval. There never has been proper consideration or provision for anyone else (generally speaking). |
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Post by quizzer on May 22, 2012 10:10:55 GMT -5
Have to agree with you quizzer it seems the children are the least concern for the workers. Personally I don't think children enter into things at all, or even the concerns of the majority of the friends. The cultural Earthly focus is on the workers and only the workers. It is about their support and their approval. There never has been proper consideration or provision for anyone else (generally speaking). Y'know, many of the hallmarks of the 2x2 doctrine seem to revolve around sacrifice, submission, and denial. The frightening part of this is that the friends and workers don't question why these are the hallmarks, and tend to fit things into these hallmarks. As a result, I'm afraid that CSA fits into the "sacrifice" option - your child is sacrificed for the good of the 2x2 system. Not a great testimony for the 2x2 system, in my opinion. |
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Post by sharonw on May 22, 2012 11:48:00 GMT -5
We all forget that IT really IS the Worker's church...it started with only workers and I suspect it will end with only workers.
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jwatt
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Post by jwatt on May 22, 2012 22:53:36 GMT -5
We all forget that IT really IS the Worker's church...it started with only workers and I suspect it will end with only workers. I second that! |
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shushy
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Post by shushy on May 22, 2012 23:59:14 GMT -5
We all forget that IT really IS the Worker's church...it started with only workers and I suspect it will end with only workers.
How any family could tolerate what has been going on is beyond me.
As for pedophiles remaining in a leadership capacity is beyond me as well.
Repentant or not. They should be removed. |
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Post by JO on May 23, 2012 0:27:38 GMT -5
How any family could tolerate what has been going on is beyond me. As for pedophiles remaining in a leadership capacity is beyond me as well. Repentant or not. They should be removed. It needs to be "one strike and you're out" in terms of eligibility for such a position of trust. You wouldn't give a fox responsibility for guarding the hen house no matter how repentant and plausible he seems. I can't imagine anyone with a history of child sex offending serving as a scoutmaster. |
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Post by quizzer on May 23, 2012 10:04:23 GMT -5
How any family could tolerate what has been going on is beyond me. As for pedophiles remaining in a leadership capacity is beyond me as well. Repentant or not. They should be removed. That's why job applications have a place to list all prior complaints and convictions. You have a chance to be honest about your background. Then, the company checks your background anyway. If your background and the position for which you're applying don't match, you don't get the job. It needs to be "one strike and you're out" in terms of eligibility for such a position of trust. You wouldn't give a fox responsibility for guarding the hen house no matter how repentant and plausible he seems. I can't imagine anyone with a history of child sex offending serving as a scoutmaster. |
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Post by JO on May 23, 2012 15:16:22 GMT -5
That's why job applications have a place to list all prior complaints and convictions. You have a chance to be honest about your background. Then, the company checks your background anyway. If your background and the position for which you're applying don't match, you don't get the job. Does the following scripture preclude a child sex abuser from having meetings in his home? ======== =========== ============ ============= ======== 1 Timothy 3 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Titus 1 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; |
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Post by quizzer on May 23, 2012 17:44:48 GMT -5
That's why job applications have a place to list all prior complaints and convictions. You have a chance to be honest about your background. Then, the company checks your background anyway. If your background and the position for which you're applying don't match, you don't get the job. Does the following scripture preclude a child sex abuser from having meetings in his home? ======== =========== ============ ============= ======== 1 Timothy 3 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Titus 1 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Umm...JO...keep reading these passages in the Bible, and you're going to toss out all of the workers... |
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Post by sharonw on May 23, 2012 18:22:18 GMT -5
Does the following scripture preclude a child sex abuser from having meetings in his home? ======== =========== ============ ============= ======== 1 Timothy 3 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Titus 1 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Umm...JO...keep reading these passages in the Bible, and you're going to toss out all of the workers... How so? Isn't the bishop/elder supposedly married and has a home in which they have the mtgs.? |
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Post by JO on May 23, 2012 19:39:25 GMT -5
Umm...JO...keep reading these passages in the Bible, and you're going to toss out all of the workers... Workers should be held to this standard as well, because they're higher up in the hierarchy. The fact that workers and elders think sexual immorality - and in some cases child sexual abuse - is acceptable, points to a serious doctrinal failure. The excuses, the covering up, the insensitivity and carelessness toward the victims, also says a lot about the priorities of the church. Too many in the church think fornication is OK. Where is the exhortation? Why is this not taught as doctrine? --------- ------------ ------------ -------------- ------------- -------------- --------------- ----------- 1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. |
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Post by quizzer on May 24, 2012 12:00:02 GMT -5
Umm...JO...keep reading these passages in the Bible, and you're going to toss out all of the workers... How so? Isn't the bishop/elder supposedly married and has a home in which they have the mtgs.? I just wonder that, if the elders held to this standard, would we need workers at all? Isn't the bishop title a clergy title? |
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Post by Greg on May 24, 2012 12:17:17 GMT -5
Umm...JO...keep reading these passages in the Bible, and you're going to toss out all of the workers... How so? Isn't the bishop/elder supposedly married and has a home in which they have the mtgs.? Yup. And further reading gets into godly people doing godly things and ungodly people doing ungodly things. |
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Post by Greg on May 24, 2012 12:20:16 GMT -5
How so? Isn't the bishop/elder supposedly married and has a home in which they have the mtgs.? I just wonder that, if the elders held to this standard, would we need workers at all? Isn't the bishop title a clergy title? Actually, it is the choice of the workers in general and the powers that be among them to set what standard will be upheld. The elders in general have little say in comparison. Yes, even if someone can relate they have heard or witnessed a few elder influenced decisions. As clearday had indicated quite a while ago, the brother workers are basically the elders. And to some degree they are the deacons, too. |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 13, 2012 10:51:47 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more Greg. He would not tolerate it for a second. Yes that's right but He wouldn't have a big gossip session about it  Must have been some gossip about what He said and did for it to be written in a book that has survived nearly 2000 years.  |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 13, 2012 10:57:28 GMT -5
Maybe, JO, the better questions to ask is: Why are we willing to sacrifice our children? Most professing folks, when reading the passages in Deuteronomy, Judges, Leviticus, and II Kings about sacrificing the children as burnt offerings, will proclaim, "Why, that was bad because they were worshipping false gods!" Now, when workers place CSA offenders in positions of trust within the meetings, professing folks do not view this as sacrificing children or worshipping a false god. They view this is as...something like..."not offending," or "upholding a standard"...or "respecting the work"... or something. Is there really a difference in these two scenarios? What makes it reasonable for us to sacrifice children? I would suspect the children that survived being made to run through the fire of a god got away with a few burn scars whereas the children who have survived a CSA have such scars that can never be found by unknowledgeable peoples...those scars have entrapped their whole psyche and affect everything in their entire lives.....so IT would be kind of like being made to pass through some god's fire which scars the outward body and perhaps does scar the psyhe as in comparison to CSA children's scarring. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2016 4:36:39 GMT -5
Wow! Looking back at this old thread makes me wonder what progress and safeguard, within the fellowship, has actually been made in this area of concern, since it stiil seems to be a hot topic on ths forum.
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Post by fixit on Apr 12, 2016 15:06:06 GMT -5
Wow! Looking back at this old thread makes me wonder what progress and safeguard, within the fellowship, has actually been made in this area of concern, since it stiil seems to be a hot topic on ths forum. Legislation around the teaching profession has got tougher in New Zealand due to child sex offenders failing to be apprehended... (The worker staff in Vietnam claim to be "teachers" - does that apply in other countries?) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2016 4:39:29 GMT -5
Well I grant you that apparently much progress has been made in the teaching arena, but apart from Vietnam, how many sheperds of the sheep in this fellowship or for the matter other religeous organisationd regard themselves as teachers? " Teacher" and "Preacher" sound pretty close, but there is a deep gulf between the two professions as far as this and other subjects/topics are concerned, unfortunately so. CSA in made easy by two things : opportunity and inclination, both these aspects must be addressed with severe consequences for those engaged in it, or those who aid and abet it, by cover ups or ignorance. Sympathy, concern and protection weigh on the side of victims not the abusers, IMO. But what do I know about such delicate things, I am just an old fool,who listens to me anyway.  |
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Post by magpie on Apr 14, 2016 0:08:34 GMT -5
"Quizzer",You said to "JO" she might as well through all the workers".. As a victim of and watched,for many decades, other victims of worker criminal CSA,facing 2x2 rejection,family breakups,gossip against,criminal workers getting jail sentence suspended(with 2x2s donation monies),"NO"compassion to criminal worker CSA,(told"you will get over it crapp")victims,mental breakdowns,"AND SUICIDES WORLDWIDE"because of unbiblical demanded unnatural celibate him/her ministry,full of unnatural minds. PEADOPHILE/PEDOPHILE= one (male/female) who is of a mental disorder making them attracted to pre-pubesant children and non human quarry for sexual gratification. Which ones do you trust Quizzer,the perpetrators or those who cover it(CSA)up?
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Post by pa on Apr 14, 2016 0:40:02 GMT -5
Neither, "in the same den of robbers"
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Post by magpie on Jul 22, 2016 1:49:01 GMT -5
Thanks "PA". 19 pages on this subject and many still want to gloss over,evade and defend the criminals and sex deviants amongst the unatural supposed celibates.
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Post by alistairhenderson on Jul 31, 2016 8:43:24 GMT -5
Uz theer six un Nyoo Zlnd?
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 29, 2023 17:02:04 GMT -5
Found this old chestnut when doing a Google search, which led me right back to this forum.
Worth a look in light of recent events.
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 30, 2023 5:49:28 GMT -5
Some familiar characters, characteristics, and complaints! You'd almost think that Internationalstudies was Review, was Noels, if you didn't know any better |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 12:13:14 GMT -5
These threads provide useful evidence of what the ministry's attitude has been up until recently. And many of the friends as well.
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