|
Post by Rob Sargison on May 8, 2012 15:31:01 GMT -5
Thank God for TMB and Wings. It's interesting how Noels seeks to closet any information into his little box and control where and when it is disseminated. He forgets of course that people talk. A little while ago I mentioned to an ex-worker the instances of sex abuse committed by a worker previously brought to the board's attention. He commented that in conversation with another ex-worker, the other stated rather emphatically that it didn't happen. It would appear that much of Noels efforts are going in to maintaining that allusion.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on May 8, 2012 15:41:11 GMT -5
Sexual abuse surrounds itself in secrecy noels. Sexual abuse is not something that is discreet. I have real concerns that such an issue is not addressed publicly to its members. Openness is important for such an issue. Again you say you have professional advice. I am sure no professional would agree to keep it secret.
You are accountable to people in your church. Your policy appears to still be, keep it secret until we check out who is on our side. That is not being discreet and confidential. People do not feel safe in such an environment. Once you have told one person it no longer becomes confidential. You are in no circumstances to give any information that identifies the victim without the victims permission, that is being confidential and no one is asking you to do such a thing.
Telling people behind the scenes is not being confidential, and keeping important information from members is not being discreet. You are being neither of these. You are being secretive and trying to protect your own skin, noels.
You are being neither discreet nor confidential, you are being secretive and not willing to put your self on the line in fear of looking less than good in front of others. It is all about you keeping face. It is not about protecting the victim, it is about protecting yourself.
|
|
|
Post by JO on May 8, 2012 16:03:49 GMT -5
Something like the statement below would help to alleviate concerns: Wouldn’t it be showing humility and integrity to say something like: We thought that we did what was right at the time, but we now realise that we made mistakes. We are taking this seriously and taking steps to rectify the mistakes we have made in the past. We are making every effort to get professional advice and get better educated on the issue of sexual abuse and offending. We apologise to victims and those in the church whom we have obviously failed and welcome any contact with regard to any concerns that people have. We want to offer a safe place for people to bring these concerns. We are still learning and welcome your input in order to protect victims. We will not tolerate any form of sexual abuse in our midst and need your help to assure this zero tolerance is adhered to.
|
|
|
Post by JO on May 8, 2012 17:24:08 GMT -5
Thank God for TMB and Wings. It's interesting how Noels seeks to closet any information into his little box and control where and when it is disseminated. He forgets of course that people talk. A little while ago I mentioned to an ex-worker the instances of sex abuse committed by a worker previously brought to the board's attention. He commented that in conversation with another ex-worker, the other stated rather emphatically that it didn't happen. It would appear that much of Noels efforts are going in to maintaining that allusion. The abuse in the OP likely wouldn't have happened if earlier offenses had been properly dealt with and warnings had been taken seriously. The lesson to be learned here is that covering up of child sexual abuse not only puts vulnerable children at risk, but it does more damage to the fellowship than if allegations were resolved with openness and accountability. Everyone needs to know that child sexual abusers will not be entrusted with access to children.
|
|
|
Post by sacerdotal on May 8, 2012 17:35:47 GMT -5
The lesson to be learned here is that covering up of child sexual abuse not only puts vulnerable children at risk, but it does more damage to the fellowship than if allegations were resolved with openness and accountability. Amen.
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on May 8, 2012 18:12:57 GMT -5
Is the meeting in NZ still being held in the home of a CSA offender? What changes have been made?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 8, 2012 18:33:43 GMT -5
Below is the sort of action the church should expect from the ministry dealing with this issue. The steps below would be appropriate as a template for similar cases. The friends should expect their workers or elders to do something like this:
1.Offer through the victims' representative or to victims directly, access to a professional counsellor for the victims paid for by the fellowship funds. Counseling is the number one recommended action needed by ALL the abuse survivors that I have corresponded with as being needed to heal.
2.Advise the victims or the victims' representative that the victims may be served well to approach the police, but it would have to be under their own terms, no pressure.
3.Ask the victims or the victims' representative to find out what the victims want to have the matter addressed and resolved.
4.Approach the accused and advise that he had heard (no need to be identify who from) allegations about his conduct and set very clear guidelines for his ongoing conduct. Ask the accused to turn himself in to authorities with a statement of what he did.
5.Offer the accused access to professional help. The church should not be obligated to pay for this though.
6.Ensure that everyone who needs to know is advised.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on May 8, 2012 18:50:04 GMT -5
Counselling is provided free, paid for by the government in cases of sexual abuse in New Zealand. No information is needed in order for a person to receive this government assistance except for the person to say that they have been sexually abused. Reports are written based on the person's claim and does not have to be proven.
Professional counselors in the area of sexual abuse are registered with this government department to provide this service. If a person is not registered with the government agency then they are probably not specialized in sexual abuse counselling. There is often a top up fee on top of what the government provides.
|
|
|
Post by kencoolidge on May 8, 2012 20:52:28 GMT -5
Sexual abuse surrounds itself in secrecy noels. Sexual abuse is not something that is discreet. I have real concerns that such an issue is not addressed publicly to its members. Openness is important for such an issue. Again you say you have professional advice. I am sure no professional would agree to keep it secret. You are accountable to people in your church. Your policy appears to still be, keep it secret until we check out who is on our side. That is not being discreet and confidential. People do not feel safe in such an environment. Once you have told one person it no longer becomes confidential. You are in no circumstances to give any information that identifies the victim without the victims permission, that is being confidential and no one is asking you to do such a thing. Telling people behind the scenes is not being confidential, and keeping important information from members is not being discreet. You are being neither of these. You are being secretive and trying to protect your own skin, noels. You are being neither discreet nor confidential, you are being secretive and not willing to put your self on the line in fear of looking less than good in front of others. It is all about you keeping face. It is not about protecting the victim, it is about protecting yourself. HF ssdd ken
|
|
simon
New Member
Posts: 33
|
Post by simon on May 9, 2012 3:44:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the "answer" Noels. Very much what one would expect.
|
|
|
Post by JO on May 9, 2012 5:01:12 GMT -5
I understand that the evidence of the abuse (via legal statements by a couple of the abused children) has been given to the overseer but no action has followed. Naturally a good number of the saints are feeling let down and discouraged as this goes on without any communication whatsoever. This is an incorrect statement. I will contact the Overseer and post here again once I have received an answer from him. If Noels receives an answer from the overseer he'll post here again.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 6:52:28 GMT -5
This is an incorrect statement. I will contact the Overseer and post here again once I have received an answer from him. If Noels receives an answer from the overseer he'll post here again. What we need from these dudes is "New Zeal and" some action!
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on May 9, 2012 12:26:24 GMT -5
Below is the sort of action the church should expect from the ministry dealing with this issue. The steps below would be appropriate as a template for similar cases. The friends should expect their workers or elders to do something like this: 1.Offer through the victims' representative or to victims directly, access to a professional counsellor for the victims paid for by the fellowship funds. Counseling is the number one recommended action needed by ALL the abuse survivors that I have corresponded with as being needed to heal.
2.Advise the victims or the victims' representative that the victims may be served well to approach the police, but it would have to be under their own terms, no pressure.
3.Ask the victims or the victims' representative to find out what the victims want to have the matter addressed and resolved.
4.Approach the accused and advise that he had heard (no need to be identify who from) allegations about his conduct and set very clear guidelines for his ongoing conduct. Ask the accused to turn himself in to authorities with a statement of what he did.
5.Offer the accused access to professional help. The church should not be obligated to pay for this though.
6.Ensure that everyone who needs to know is advised.Should it be added that, if the CSA offender is the elder of the meeting and/or has the meeting in his home, that the meeting/eldership should be removed immediately, pending the investigation?
|
|
shushy
Royal Member
Warning
50%
Posts: 8,009
|
Post by shushy on May 9, 2012 15:04:19 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on May 9, 2012 15:17:57 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. Why just the men. Women can do just as much about it as men. Remember New Zealand was the first country in the world that allowed women to vote.
|
|
|
Post by Rob Sargison on May 9, 2012 15:21:48 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. Remember New Zealand was the first country in the world that allowed women to vote. And it's all been downhill ever since.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 9, 2012 16:08:36 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. I understand they have sent a request to Gene for his tail-docking irons. I must admit that I'm baffled by this request. Do they still dock horses' tails in Enzed?
|
|
|
Post by JO on May 9, 2012 16:59:38 GMT -5
The Catholic Church pope gave some moral direction on child sexual abuse a decade ago: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Because of the great harm done by some priests and religious, the Church herself is viewed with distrust, and many are offended at the way in which the Church's leaders are perceived to have acted in this matter. The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God. To the victims and their families, wherever they may be, I express my profound sense of solidarity and concern. www.vatican.va/resources/resources_american-cardinals-2002_en.html
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on May 9, 2012 17:40:56 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. Just make sure there's no evidence to convict you, and I won't see a thing. It'll be another death by natural causes.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 9, 2012 17:52:08 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. Just make sure there's no evidence to convict you, and I won't see a thing. It'll be another death by natural causes. Two things: 1 - Nothing happens. - or - 2 - Headline reads: Local Minister Missing Article reads: Minister last seen going for a walk. No other information available.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 9, 2012 19:56:18 GMT -5
You guys are far tooo nice. Where are the fathers and the boyfriends of the victims why arent they doing something. Id take the law into my own hands if it was my blood that were being abused. I understand they have sent a request to Gene for his tail-docking irons. I must admit that I'm baffled by this request. Do they still dock horses' tails in Enzed? "But officer, I thought that was his TAIL!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 3:59:30 GMT -5
On the farm, we used "Crunchers", on the bull calves. They were very effective.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 10, 2012 4:58:43 GMT -5
On the farm, we used "Crunchers", on the bull calves. They were very effective. And here was me thinking you didn't have effective csa procedures in place down in the antipodes!
|
|
|
Post by quizzer on May 10, 2012 9:13:32 GMT -5
Just make sure there's no evidence to convict you, and I won't see a thing. It'll be another death by natural causes. Two things: 1 - Nothing happens. - or - 2 - Headline reads: Local Minister Missing Article reads: Minister last seen going for a walk. No other information available. I've often wondered why the workers do such questionable things like CSA and spiritual killings. These activities create people who will thoroughly dislike them. Then, the workers do things like travel around, with limited contact to one another and no contact with the friends. It's like a built-in deathwish. Create enemies, and make your location unknown.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on May 10, 2012 9:36:15 GMT -5
Two things: 1 - Nothing happens. - or - 2 - Headline reads: Local Minister Missing Article reads: Minister last seen going for a walk. No other information available. I've often wondered why the workers do such questionable things like CSA and spiritual killings. These activities create people who will thoroughly dislike them. Then, the workers do things like travel around, with limited contact to one another and no contact with the friends. It's like a built-in deathwish. Create enemies, and make your location unknown. I am not sure why you quote what I wrote and then make your comments.
|
|
|
Post by JO on May 11, 2012 17:23:45 GMT -5
Child sexual abuse, in terms of its profound and life-changing lasting impact on victims, is in an entirely different league to adult sexual immorality.
For that reason I'm reluctant to raise the wider subject of sexual immorality in a discussion on child sexual abuse. However, both result from a lack of moral boundaries and looseness in one can lead to offending in another.
e.g. A man who has no moral qualms about having sex with a woman who is a day older than the age of consent, may give it no thought to have sexual relations with a woman a day younger than the age of consent.
Do I need to spell it out explicitly what I mean by "sexual relations"? Hint: it is more than "wrestling with clothes on", it involves genital contact of one or both parties, either homosexual or heterosexual.
Some say that those who talk about sexual immorality are the ones who are most likely guilty of it. That's foolish nonsense, and is counter-productive.
There's a serious doctrinal failure in the church that has resulted in a lot of confusion around moral boundaries.
The subject needs to be discussed openly.
Here are some boundaries that people in the church are confused about that it might be worthwhile to consider:
1. Are there any circumstances that make it acceptable for unmarried professing people to have sexual relations with consenting adults?
2. Are there any circumstances that make it acceptable for married professing people to have sexual relations with consenting adults they are not married to.
3. Are there any circumstances that make it acceptable for workers to have sexual relations with consenting adults?
4. Are there any circumstances that make it acceptable for workers to have sexual relations with non-consenting adults?
5. Are there any circumstances that make it acceptable for professing people or workers to have sexual relations with people under the age of consent?
If any of the above are not in line with the doctrine of the church, how can that be taught so that everyone knows where the boundaries are?
Or are sexual boundaries simply a matter of personal choice and conscience, and nothing to do with doctrine?
|
|
|
Post by sharonw on May 11, 2012 17:43:57 GMT -5
I understand they have sent a request to Gene for his tail-docking irons. I must admit that I'm baffled by this request. Do they still dock horses' tails in Enzed? "But officer, I thought that was his TAIL!" A few years ago or let us say a number of a few years ago, our grandson liked to stand up in the seat between me and my husband. He was acting silly and sounded like a monkey. I asked him what he thought he was doing. "I'm doing what monkeys do," he said. I said "Oh, you think? I said "are you really a monkey today?" He answered "Yep, I'm a monkey!" I said "You can't be a monkey, you don't have a tail>" He grabbed himself, and hollored "Oh yes I do. It's right here." I turned all colors of embaraasment and my husband turned to me and winked real big and said, "He's got you on that one, eh?" ;D ;D ;D
|
|
|
Post by Gene on May 11, 2012 18:35:42 GMT -5
"But officer, I thought that was his TAIL!" A few years ago or let us say a number of a few years ago, our grandson liked to stand up in the seat between me and my husband. He was acting silly and sounded like a monkey. I asked him what he thought he was doing. "I'm doing what monkeys do," he said. I said "Oh, you think? I said "are you really a monkey today?" He answered "Yep, I'm a monkey!" I said "You can't be a monkey, you don't have a tail>" He grabbed himself, and hollored "Oh yes I do. It's right here." I turned all colors of embaraasment and my husband turned to me and winked real big and said, "He's got you on that one, eh?" ;D ;D ;D Hahahaha! That's great!
|
|