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Post by unlogged on Mar 5, 2012 14:35:36 GMT -5
Verses from Romans 9. It's not our place to decide about God's wrath, or His mercy.
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! 15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” ... 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. ...
22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, ...
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 5, 2012 17:34:08 GMT -5
Hi Tiger and all that have written about this very serious matter. The sad truth is that not one single worker male or female have come near and spoken to us concerning this worker in Tas/Vic. and they know how much time he spent in our home while I was growing up and also since we married and had children of our own. he was around our children and other children that were visiting. It just makes us sick to think about it. They seem determined not to say a thing about it hoping it will go away somehow. The thing that hurts as we think of the many friends including us and our family that were reprimanded about such trivals things and have had to endure needless suffering inflicted by the very workers we were supposed to trust and yet now they can't do the right thing and take responsibiliy for what terrible pain they have caused. They don't mind tarnishing peoples reputations so long as they keep a clean slate themselves. and at other peoples expense. All we seem to hear is the friends making allowances for them, saying that God will deal with him at the end, strange that the workers can't make the same allowances for innocent people that have been cast out in the cold. DITTO to everything you have said here Aussie22. We cant understand the "head in the sand" attitude of many in Tas. This person is a criminal. It is criminal to not reassure people it wont happen again. Maybe the eunich idea is not a bad idea. Dont reckon we would hav any male workers if that was suggested.  |
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Post by eunuchesses on Mar 5, 2012 18:20:19 GMT -5
Maybe the eunich idea is not a bad idea. Dont reckon we would hav any male workers if that was suggested. So Ms Mouse in the house, what will you do about the Tas (Vic) female molesters. Female eunuchs? ;D |
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Post by JO on Mar 5, 2012 19:05:40 GMT -5
I would appreciate making contact with anyone who has experience with female molesters because I have a personal interest in some unresolved female on male abuse.
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 5, 2012 20:08:23 GMT -5
Maybe the eunich idea is not a bad idea. Dont reckon we would hav any male workers if that was suggested. So Ms Mouse in the house, what will you do about the Tas (Vic) female molesters. Female eunuchs? ;D Whats good for the goose, is good for the gander. That is just so disgusting. Feel sorry for those that have experienced abuse of any type. Sometimes I just wish I lived in Antartica. |
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Post by uneunuched on Mar 6, 2012 0:29:24 GMT -5
Sometimes I just wish I lived in Antartica. Might freeze them off !!! ;D |
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Post by Concerned ex tas on Mar 6, 2012 2:32:33 GMT -5
Maybe the eunich idea is not a bad idea. Dont reckon we would hav any male workers if that was suggested. So Ms Mouse in the house, what will you do about the Tas (Vic) female molesters. Female eunuchs? ;D Can anyone add any more info - Tas / vic female molesters!!!!!!!!! Need more explanation? |
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Post by exVic on Mar 6, 2012 5:06:32 GMT -5
Maybe it's time to be contacting your "friendly" overseer in Vic/Tas and asking for an explanation.
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Post by currenttas on Mar 6, 2012 5:11:27 GMT -5
Sadly I have contacted the current "friendly" overseer of VICTAS to no avail.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 11:06:04 GMT -5
One thing that worries me. Maybe your sister workers there have no idea of the state of things ? I am beginning to wonder about that too. I have heard of one set of sisters who were prepared to talk about the change of overseer but would not talk of anything else- I thought of this as total denial of the truth, but this may be unfair, as there is a chance,as you say, that they haven't been informed. I think if we come across such cases we need to advise them to urgently seek the truth from their overseer- it is not fair to them to be expected to be good and able shepherdesses if they haven't been given the full kitbag to enable them to comfort the sheep. Could that be the case ? For example, I understand that that there is one country where the overseer very magnanimously acceded to the request to acquaint his staff with ways to deal with CSA. So - a meeting of his staff was called. 2 things happened: the first was that a subordinate brother worker did the talking, the overseer effectively divorcing himself from directly being involved. ( But, maybe this act was due to infirmity of age, mind, or tiredness or some other mitigating factor, so we must be fair here). This is not the point at issue though. The second( which maybe does relate to this topic) was that the sister workers were asked to leave at that point. Maybe it was felt that they wouldn’t be able to understand the issue ? ! This doesn't sound ideal especially re the sister workers , but I think the overseer does deserve credit for getting some training started in his territory. i suspect , based on what we are seeing here in Scotland, that there are a good number of places that still must have had none. So - maybe your sister workers there are in the dark ? If so, they will be helplessly meandering in the fog too. If that is the case, then, we can only pray that the sheep and the shepherdesses can link their woolly limbs together,and holding to each other, find strength to stumble together, out of the morass. So - if there ARE any sister workers reading this, please question yourselves, are you prepared to be a Deborah ? if you don’t really believe that the friends are hurting, as "seems" the case here, then Go and ask some of your sisters, nieces, friends and their husbands, those with children. ask them ! Find out how they really feel, not just the words they may feel they have to say to you this would be wonderful - the information vacuum we have currently, is painful to witness. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 12:07:35 GMT -5
Thank you for all your thoughts and prayers. I am aware a number of us here in the Uk & Scotland have received PMs from people far afield – these mean a lot especially when otherwise there is a sense of isolation from truth and openness. There are many people who still have no idea what has happened and it galls me to think that young lives, parents and grandparents can be so easy overlooked and be left unconsidered.
I was at the supermarket this morning and spent some time people watching. There were some people (I know I’m guilty of this ) who its easy to feel quite prejudiced against. Outwardly rough, vulgar language etc. Yet what I saw today was that these same people had an innate care for the children and animals they had with them. That care and feeling in their heart is God-given to human beings. PLEASE PLEASE give your flock the information they need so that that care and feeling that parents/grandparents have for their families can be properly applied at this time. PLEASE. We need to be able to ensure that all our young are protected and that parents/grandparents can feel they are fulfilling the responsibilities that they have to those they love in this life. PLEASE don’t let them down. I know for certain that many are still ignorant of what has happened in their midst. How are they going to all be reached ? Are you really intending to leave it to us to drip-feed this around bit by bit and leave open the way for some to miss out ? Is there anyone listening at all to any of this?
I wonder if you realise the affect all this has on the spiritual condition of your people. Maybe not everyone’s like me. Yesterday I felt a deep need just to get close to God, but to be honest I never felt I could pray. My thoughts were too muddled. I normally love reading but I found I struggled. In the end I got a little help from just remembering a very simple verse. “I will fear no evil for thou art with me” .
Doe this sort of thing matter to you? This sort of impact on the spiritual life just adds to the sense of isolation and reinforces the point that all is not well.
As Simon suggested earlier, it is possible that some of the shepherds and particularly the shepherdesses may not know any detail of what has happened. If so, if we find workers that say they don’t know, then it’s important we stress to them the urgency of finding out the truth from their overseer. We want them to fulfil their role of sheep carers. They can’t shepherd(ess) through the darkness without some light.
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Post by JO on Mar 6, 2012 13:23:39 GMT -5
The Ministry is my shepherd;
I shall not want.
It makes me to lie down in green pastures;
It leads me beside the still waters.
It restores my soul;
It leads me in the paths of righteousness...
My heart goes out to you folks in Scotland, but dependance on workers as shepherds and shepherdesses is not good for you or for the workers.
The workers are fellow human beings, fellow believers, and they're totally out of their depth when it comes to dealing with child sexual abuse.
As caregivers of children we must be vigilant. Abuse can come from a child's sibling, parent, cousin, uncle, aunt, and yes...from elders and from workers.
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 6, 2012 16:01:24 GMT -5
I would appreciate making contact with anyone who has experience with female molesters because I have a personal interest in some unresolved female on male abuse. Hi JOE, Re:- female on male abuse. Are you talking about male children, teenager or an unsuspecting husband!!!!!!!!!! Have you spoken to someone from WINGS. I think you need to re-read your own post. At the bottom you say evil goes on if good men do nothing. (That should read women as well). We do need to talk to each other, to try and help each other. My husband spoke to one person about this subject, and they just changed the subject. Obviously not interested, somehow involved or just totally embarassed. Probably thought we didnt know. |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 6, 2012 16:12:40 GMT -5
:)Sorry posters from UK, getting off the subject for a moment.
Just wanted to say to anyone in NSW and VIC that have been affected by the floods, us here in TAS are thinking of you. Our thoughts and prayers to those who have been evacuated.
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Post by JO on Mar 6, 2012 17:14:41 GMT -5
I would appreciate making contact with anyone who has experience with female molesters because I have a personal interest in some unresolved female on male abuse. Hi JOE, Re:- female on male abuse. Are you talking about male children, teenager or an unsuspecting husband!!!!!!!!!! Have you spoken to someone from WINGS. I think you need to re-read your own post. At the bottom you say evil goes on if good men do nothing. (That should read women as well). We do need to talk to each other, to try and help each other. My husband spoke to one person about this subject, and they just changed the subject. Obviously not interested, somehow involved or just totally embarassed. Probably thought we didnt know. I'm referring to woman sexually abusing pre-teen boy. Workers and friends who don't want to talk about child sexual abuse are part of the problem rather than part of the solution. |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 6, 2012 18:19:20 GMT -5
[/quote]
I'm referring to woman sexually abusing pre-teen boy.
Workers and friends who don't want to talk about child sexual abuse are part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
[/quote]
Looks like nobody willing to talk about it. Did you ask on another thread? Are we talking about Australia, and which state. Just ignore this if you would rather not say!
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Post by JO on Mar 6, 2012 21:20:46 GMT -5
Why don't you register, Angelina Mouse?
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 6, 2012 22:11:02 GMT -5
Why don't you register, Angelina Mouse? I would just rather be incognito. Just not sure if I would ever register. There are questions about the board and mods, etc, I would need answered before I registered. As said on another thread, they know which computers the messages have come from, so do they already know who I am. Also are there any workers that are mods. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 6, 2012 23:28:32 GMT -5
Why don't you register, Angelina Mouse? I would just rather be incognito. Just not sure if I would ever register. There are questions about the board and mods, etc, I would need answered before I registered. As said on another thread, they know which computers the messages have come from, so do they already know who I am. Also are there any workers that are mods. Ms A Mouse, There are no workers who are mods. The mod team is very small which translates into efficiency. I am the only one on the mod team who has access to IP information, and letting you into a little secret, I have very little interest in IP statistics. I just prefer not to know. So I can assure that you are as safe and secure here as is possible on the internet. I will endeavor to keep it that way. Any person contributing on this thread should also consider signing up on Wings. admin  |
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Post by JO on Mar 7, 2012 13:35:01 GMT -5
Why don't you register, Angelina Mouse? I would just rather be incognito. Just not sure if I would ever register. There are questions about the board and mods, etc, I would need answered before I registered. As said on another thread, they know which computers the messages have come from, so do they already know who I am. Also are there any workers that are mods. Being so fearful of workers is only contributing to a power structure that never should have developed. Sometimes the following scripture is misinterpreted to give the preacher power that was never intended. Authority is in Jesus himself and the message, not in the messenger. The messenger is to teach people to obey the message of he who was given all authority in heaven and on earth. Jesus didn't delegate power or authority to middle men or to an organisation. ========================================== Matt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” |
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Post by otto2 on Mar 7, 2012 16:18:30 GMT -5
Jesus didn't delegate power or authority to middle men or to an organisation. I feel I must reiterate JO's statement as I find it almost as disturbing as the main issue of the thread, the fact that the friends are so dependant on the workers to guide them. Paul writes in 1 Timothy 2:5 'For there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. And again in Hebrews 6:17-19 'that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek'. There is only one Good Shepherd and the Bible tells us who it is. All the rest are hirelings as is well demonstrated in Matthew 26:69-75. Whenever I speak to my family about Salvation, (which frankly is rare now due to the direction in which they point) they always point to the workers as the example to follow rather than having faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus himself. Equally worrying is the call in this thread to the sisters to respond in the absence of the brothers. I would respectfully recommend a close reading of 1 Corinthians 11: 3-10 in respect of headship order, and also 1 Cor 14: 34-37 with particular attention to v37. As the whole letter is written (ch1: v2) to the Church at Corinth, 'with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours', that would seem to preclude these matters being dismissed as cultural to the time. I apologise if I am somewhat off topic but I have of late become rather alarmed to discover that the faith of some close family members really does seem to be placed in the sacrifice of men rather than of God, and that seems to be the case here too. edited by mod3 to fix quote format |
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Post by JO on Mar 7, 2012 16:46:56 GMT -5
Its a concern that sister workers are sometimes kept out of child sexual abuse discussion.
Sometimes sister workers show more wisdom and understanding and compassion than their male colleagues.
If the overseers had the wisdom and courage of the young sister worker in the following letter of two decades ago, it would have saved a lot of grief.
===========================================
Excerpt of a letter written by a young Sister Worker to Tharold Sylvester
Dated: February 11, 1991
In my own experience in two fields where there were molestation cases, I have learned:
The offender did not fully acknowledge his wrong until he was in the hands of the law.
The victim was not able to begin healing until it had been publicly acknowledged through proper legal channels to have committed a crime against her. That the behavior had ceased was not enough. In the one case, several months passed from the time the behavior ceased to the time the victim reported the crime. It was only after the crime was reported that she had access to the counseling and support she so badly needed to rise above it all. I might mention also that the offender himself expressed relief when the matter was finally settled in court.
The friends in the field did not settle down until we had visited in each home, brought the unpleasant matter out in the open, stated out loud that the problem was of a sexual nature. (Euphemisms were not adequate.) We stated a few facts to counteract imagination and/or rumors, and then gave them a chance to vent their feelings and bring up any concerns. Most of them were first extremely angry, but later supportive of us and of the family. The friends who had more difficulty were the ones who already had hidden, unresolved problems of their own.
I was dubious about the wisdom of tackling these visits. It felt like tattling, and I worried it might stir up unnecessary trouble. Actually, we discovered it to be a great relief to have things out in the open. For instance, we had some very upset parents of small children asking, "If you knew about this, why didn't you warn us earlier?" We had no answer, except that we had been naïve. Also, when one family knew, and they would be talking to another family, and they were wondering, "Do they know?" and "If they know, do they that we know?” This made for a strong undercurrent of tension that popped like a bubble when everyone knew the facts, and everyone knew that everyone else knew. Here I might add that the facts we gave them had already been established in court.
We also let each family know that they were free to talk directly to us or to the family involved if they had further questions. Then we made good on our promise to listen to and answer them. Actually, there were not many who needed to talk further; for most, it was settled for them with one visit.
In the second case, the offender had an unblemished reputation. We all reacted with "But he would never do a thing like that," and concluded it must be a false accusation. We just couldn't believe it. But we had to believe it when confronted by the fact that he had pled guilty. There could have easily been sidetaking in the church. But when someone said "He wouldn't do that," we could simply answer, "He pled guilty. He's been sentenced." This kept us workers out of the position of having to judge or take sides. His guilt had already been established. We were simply supporting the laws of the land. There was no problem. If people felt the sentence was too strict or too lenient; the Judge had decided that matter. No problem with differing opinions about what kind of counseling should be given the family members; that was decided by the authorities. No problem with getting him to follow through with treatment; he had to or be found in contempt of court.
Meanwhile, the man is saying to himself, "But I'd surely never do a thing like that." Very difficult for him to admit to himself even, that he'd really done it. As hard for him to believe as it was for us. But having to face the legal consequences helped him to face the reality of what he had done. (When the police knocked at the door with arrest warrant and handcuffs, it got pretty real.) That was the first step towards repentance. The court ordered treatment that followed established the seriousness of what he had done and offered him a positive course of action. When the friends saw that he was sincerely working with the treatment program, they were wonderfully supportive.
The program also guided him in the steps of making amends. One step was writing a letter of apology, and later an oral apology. He was required to state exactly and completely what he did; a partial or general apology was not acceptable. He stated that what he did was wrong, and that he was sorry. He was not allowed to ask her to forgive him. That was her decision; his responsibility was to simply apologize. The responsibility for making things right was on him, and asking her to forgive him was putting some responsibility over on to her, and that was not his right to do. The whole problem started with asking her to do things he had no right to ask, and the counselors were trying to help him break that pattern. It seems that addicts often feel that if they can get the victim to forgive, it will make things all right, and then the addict doesn't have to change.
The treatment also taught the offender how to deal with the terrible overpowering shame he felt once his denial was broken down. This man's wife told us that his shame was incapacitating, and his counselors spent weeks trying to help him to deal with it and go on. Without their specialized help, she felt he would not have been able to recover himself.
His counselors also taught him that every day for the rest of his life he must remind himself, "I am a sex offender. I have the potential to hurt someone, and I must watch myself because this could happen again." They said that any time he begins to believe he will not do it again, he is likely to repeat the crime.
According to the little brochure we picked up at the police station, any professional, which includes teachers, counselors, medical personnel, and ministers, who becomes aware of a case of child abuse or molestation, is required by law to report it. That's a legal obligation. As for our moral obligation, I personally feel that it parallels the duty of a citizen who knows about a murder. We do wrong if we keep quiet. We aid the criminal if we keep quiet.
…I need assurance that when we make special meeting plans, we can place workers in the homes of our people and feel confident that their doctrine and behavior will be godly. When I give our friends addresses for meetings in another state, I want to know that they will be safe there.
As you older brothers deal with this matter, you are in my prayers. Thank you for taking time to consider the fears I feel as a woman and as a young worker.
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Post by aussie22 on Mar 7, 2012 19:18:31 GMT -5
Hi Jo,
Thanks for your well written message.
The trouble is that the Vic/Tas workers expect the power and if they don't get the power over the friends there is trouble.
Unfortunately we are not sure they really understand what they read in the Bible.
We had workers especially visit to tell us how important it was for us to( and we must) obey the workers.
They even went as far as tell us that the friends must obey the workers even if it is wrong because if the friends are willing to obey the workers even if it is wrong, then God will one day give them the blessing.
They even gave us an example of someone we knew who had been willing for this.
As they spoke of this it just made us shudder.
It seems this kind of attitude opens the door for abuse of all kinds.
I was born into a Christian home, where love and honesty prevailed. and you can imagine how devastated I was to hear the workers speak this way, as it was so far removed from our pre- professing days.
I do understand the reason why Angelina Mouse may not want to register.
I have lived in both Tas and Victoria and we know how much one has to keep their guard up and protect not just ourselves but our families.
While the friends should be free to speak out, it unfortunately comes at a cost.
While, what we write and say is 100% the truth and only the truth, we do try to protect those in the fellowship even though we are no longer a part of it.
Thanks Angelina mouse for you contribution here, we do appreciate people like yourself who are willing to take the time and care to write and we don't mind even if you are a mouse.
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Post by JO on Mar 7, 2012 20:11:02 GMT -5
We had workers especially visit to tell us how important it was for us to( and we must) obey the workers. They even went as far as tell us that the friends must obey the workers even if it is wrong because if the friends are willing to obey the workers even if it is wrong, then God will one day give them the blessing. Thanks Aussie22. Such ungodly attitudes are destroying the work and the church. There are some good workers out there who I appreciate very much. They preach and live Jesus Christ and not themselves. Sadly, some friends and workers may need sorrowful times to wean them from the error of the ungodly hierarchical control system that has developed. John 5:39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 “ I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 7, 2012 20:35:45 GMT -5
Many thanks to Admin, JO, otto2 and aussie 22. Especially thankyou to JO for the sister workers letter. And aussie22 - I feel like a really small mouse when I come in contact with one of the workers in TAS at the moment. This person totally freaks me!!!!!!!!!!!! The mouse needs to wipe her eyes. Thanks for your kind thoughts.
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 7, 2012 22:42:55 GMT -5
We seem to have pinched the UK thread again. Did I remember right that Daphne said she had spoken to a worker about the problem. Could you get back to us Daphne. I would like to know of the attitude the worker had to your questions. |
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Post by JO on Mar 7, 2012 23:42:03 GMT -5
I feel like a really small mouse when I come in contact with one of the workers in TAS at the moment. This person totally freaks me!!!!!!!!!!!! The mouse needs to wipe her eyes. This is disgusting. No servant of the meek and lowly Jesus would strike fear into the hearts of his little ones. This worker needs to shape up or go find a different job. ======================================== Luke 1:73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham: 74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear |
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Post by aussie22 on Mar 8, 2012 0:56:02 GMT -5
Thanks Jo and Angelina,
I have been thinking this afternoon about the little mouse wiping her eyes.
I too have shed many many tears, and I remember how I feared some of them, and there being times I thought I would faint with fear, I was so full of fear it made me sick, now I wonder why, but at the time I don't think it was without reason and there are sure some of the workers we need to fear or have needed to fear.
Yes, Jo there are some workers we still have respect for and give them credit for the stand they take.
Thanks Angelina for reminding us we may be on the wrong thread. being it is the Re UK and Scotland.
Thanks Jo for your encouraging posts, I have so appreciated them.
Please keep posting.
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