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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 28, 2012 3:07:49 GMT -5
I spoke to a worker concerning the issue and all they would say was they would pray for the overseer When I said there might be a predator upon an innocent victim who now needs all the support there was no comment. If that's not defending the ministry at any expense I don't know what is, and it's not right. Totally introverted. Yes it is conservative Scotland. The ministry has become a God within the fellowship. That needs to change. However, the priority is the victim. She needs time. This is a very sensitive issue for her and the last thing she needs is to be pushed into doing something she doesn't want to do (at least until she is ready). There is no need for urgency other than to properly inform the church in Scotland. The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. He is no longer a threat. Of course he is still a threat. There are a million other children out there in the world. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Feb 28, 2012 4:07:20 GMT -5
 message for Scotland  You're enraging God  And seeing nobody else is telling the truth this is it According to the most hated family in America www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKiDHrp9p3E |
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 28, 2012 4:18:30 GMT -5
Ram - Aapproximately how many F&W are there in Scotland? Cherie I have lost track of things. At a very rough guess I would suggest 500+ friends these days? Hopefully someone more up to date will provide more accurate details. I reckon about 20 workers with half a dozen or so being brother workers. 8 Males - 6 active 16 Females as of July 2011 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 4:32:10 GMT -5
I spoke to a worker concerning the issue and all they would say was they would pray for the overseer When I said there might be a predator upon an innocent victim who now needs all the support there was no comment. If that's not defending the ministry at any expense I don't know what is, and it's not right. Totally introverted. you're absolutely right - this response is no good at all. I suggest you go to another worker to get answers. Or maybe you need to go to the new overseer. I haven't even begun to think why they have had to go far away to get a new overseer, but maybe there is some sound reason for it and maybe he has some extra good qualities. I understand he is approachable with good people skills. Maybe you should track down Alan. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 4:49:26 GMT -5
I have woken this morning wondering if the overseers need a bit more benefit of the doubt. Maybe they have been acting totally in ignorance (rather than deliberately acting the way they did). A sort of mental and spiritual myopia- not seeing the bigger picture. I bet if they had children of their own they wouldn’t have done it the way they have.
I looked yesterday at these csa GUIDELINES recently issued to workers – does anyone know if they were sent to any of John Gunn, Tommy Gamble, Percy Watkins, Alan Beggs, Bobby Kerr and Ben Crompton – the ones who I understand attended the Scottish workers meeting last week. If so, they didn’t get what it was all about did they?
I must have been subconsciously thinking about it all during my sleep because just after I woke up this morning I found myself playing through a made-up scene in my mind. I was the mother of all those men (who in my mind were now boys). And I was standing in my kitchen and I was saying to them. “ Right lads sit down there round the table. No ! It’s now my turn to speak. What you’ve done to those people today has been totally totally inconsiderate. After tea you are going right round there to apologise to those people. And tomorrow when you get home from school there’s NO football. Not until you’ve done your homework and learnt those GUIDELINES. OK? Once you’ve learnt them come down and I’ll be testing you in the lounge. In the meantime get peeling those potatoes.”
Funny how the subconscious and imagination works eh, showing the need to bring this whole saga back on track for the sake of the people and children in the fellowship.
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Post by bystander on Feb 28, 2012 5:10:42 GMT -5
I wonder is the reason why there's been no open communication with the church because those men/boys are simply embarrassed about the whole subject?
On the other hand it could be because others amongst them are on shaky ground sexually and fearing for their own skins and reputations?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 5:32:16 GMT -5
At this stage we have no knowledge what he has confessed to. Also nothing is proved so far. It seems you and many others will only believe a worker has committed a criminal and evil act on a child, if the worker is convicted in a court of law. What other "proof" can you suggest? Victims note, if you want to be believed, go to police. The sad part of this stance is, victims who for whatever reason do not wish to go to police, might as well just shut up and suffer in silence.
Nobody is disbelieving the victim. Rather its the opposite I think. However the situation at the moment is a very delicate one for the victim. Often the wheels of justice turn slowly. This matter has just come to light after X amount of years of suffering by the victim. This is not a time for hasty, knee jerk reactions. Calculated responses based upon what is known is the best way forward.All I know about this case is that the victim has made it known to workers that at some distant time in the past another worker carried out some kind of sexual act on her as a minor. So far no official statement has been made to the authorities by the victim as far as I know. One or more workers have approached the worker in question and he has apparently admitted the allegation. As a result he has been put out the work. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 5:39:06 GMT -5
Yes it is conservative Scotland. The ministry has become a God within the fellowship. That needs to change. However, the priority is the victim. She needs time. This is a very sensitive issue for her and the last thing she needs is to be pushed into doing something she doesn't want to do (at least until she is ready). There is no need for urgency other than to properly inform the church in Scotland. The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. He is no longer a threat. Of course he is still a threat. There are a million other children out there in the world. Any alarmist reaction must be balanced against the level of threat. At the moment I am only aware of one incident which happened many years ago. This worker has been removed from the work, instantly reducing by considerable measure the level of threat however significant or insignificant that may be. I think this person will be lying very low just now and will feel unable to move around the only circles he knows, at least to a great degree. Yes it's wise to be careful, but in the circumstances I do not think there is any measurable threat as things stand. Remember, there are a few hundred thousand other threats out there walking about freely whom you don't know about. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 5:46:53 GMT -5
I wonder is the reason why there's been no open communication with the church because those men/boys are simply embarrassed about the whole subject? On the other hand it could be because others amongst them are on shaky ground sexually and fearing for their own skins and reputations? This is the problem. People are left wondering. It may be that so far the workers are fulfilling the victim's wishes ? That's one thing to wonder about. The victim is receiving professional help. The professionals may well be in contact with a police family protection dept for advice/guidance etc. That's another thing to be wondering about. Also it may be the workers are worried about what else and who else is about to come out of the bag. That's another thing to be wondering about. A short frank letter to all the friends in Scotland would go a long way towards addressing peoples' concerns. This is an extremely delicate matter for the victim who needs time to decide what is best for her. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 5:47:25 GMT -5
On the other hand it could be because others amongst them are on shaky ground sexually and fearing for their own skins and reputations? It's possible, but if so, then on this point they need to be assured they have nothing to worry about unless they have been involved with children. There is a huge difference. At this point in time, parents and grandparents will overlook a lot if they can simply get the information they need to protect their children and grandchildren. Abusing children is a crime, as plain and simple as that, - it damages and harms someone who has had no way to defend themselves. It’s abhorrent to all mankind, is recognised as such by the law and therefore often leads to the law being involved. Adults messing around together is totally different- it shouldn’t be ignored in the church but it is not a crime. But at this point of time parents/grandparents do not have it as a top priority. They are concentrating on their responsibility to protect their families from the behaviour that is criminal that can bring lifetime damage to their loved ones. You workers, do you really not see this? Do you really not see the need your people have right now for some kind of statement from you, at least? Do you feel no responsibility to us? Do you really not understand the extent of the damage this can do to young lives? If not, then please go and educate yourselves and cut out the 'hireling' approach to your flock. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 5:49:57 GMT -5
On the other hand it could be because others amongst them are on shaky ground sexually and fearing for their own skins and reputations? It's possible, but if so, then on this point they need to be assured they have nothing to worry about unless they have been involved with children. There is a huge difference. At this point in time, parents and grandparents will overlook a lot if they can simply get the information they need to protect their children and grandchildren. Abusing children is a crime, as plain and simple as that, - it damages and harms someone who has had no way to defend themselves. It’s abhorrent to all mankind, is recognised as such by the law and therefore often leads to the law being involved. Adults messing around together is totally different- it shouldn’t be ignored in the church but it is not a crime. But at this point of time parents/grandparents do not have it as a top priority. They are concentrating on their responsibility to protect their families from the behaviour that is criminal that can bring lifetime damage to their loved ones. You workers, do you really not see this? Do you really not see the need your people have right now for some kind of statement from you, at least? Do you feel no responsibility to us? Do you really not understand the extent of the damage this can do to young lives? If not, then please go and educate yourselves and cut out the 'hireling' approach to your flock. hear hear Daphne! |
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Post by onlooker on Feb 28, 2012 6:03:06 GMT -5
The workers make a lot of the fact they are not trained in bible college as are ministers of 'false' religions.
That is a weakness as well as a strength
For the same reason none of them can take the wheel of a car without having passed a test to drive, they must seriously consider training along the guidelines this board has put together.
Similarly there ought to be a general code of conduct for everything which they do, so that in every aspect such as confidentiality to do with matters where friends approach them, through to how they behave in all aspects of their life reduces the likelihood of them being blamed.
2 Cor 6, which I quoted earlier is the perfect pattern for all of this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 6:12:17 GMT -5
Has the offending worker been excommunicated? Regards Robert No idea on this Robert. I've tried to find out myself and end up with a mix of views on what's happened. I have heard some say he's out of fellowship totally, but this is counterbalanced by around the same number saying he's simply out of the work. so, don't know. Another thing that needs to be clarified in the ever more needed worker statement. |
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Post by September on Feb 28, 2012 8:47:04 GMT -5
You workers, do you really not see this? Do you really not see the need your people have right now for some kind of statement from you, at least? Do you feel no responsibility to us? Do you really not understand the extent of the damage this can do to young lives? If not, then please go and educate yourselves and cut out the 'hireling' approach to your flock.Succinctly said and echoes the thoughts of many in the meetings in Ireland. The workers must be accountable to the friends in matters such as these. It might also be a good time to review the current model of workers staying in homes where there are vulnerable children/people. There appears to be enough money sloshing about in the system to support rented accommodation for 8 months of the year. Another thing: If Tommie Gamble was at the meeting in Scotland, he is well-placed to give advice on the legal position regarding the offender. He has learned much since the summer past when he insisted a victim did not report an Irish offender as the offender "had been dealt with". Apparently taking the offenders name of the workers list was sufficient punishment but none of the friends were informed of the reason why. The offender still behaved and was treated like a worker, taking meetings and union meetings, visiting friends' homes and even being included in the workers photograph at Fermanagh Convention June 2011. The offender claimed TG had made a mistake in omitting his name from the list and he was still a worker although "resting". A victim learned that he was still afforded worker privileges and informed TG that she would be reporting the offender to the police. TG insisted she shouldn't but the victim did report him. TG has since apologised for his failure in grasping the gravity of the situation and has urged anyone affected by the elderly offender (or anyone else) to go to the police and to inform him, TG of the circumstances and he will offer his full support. This is progress of course, but TG must somehow convey this to the friends and assure them that anyone informing the police of abuse by a worker (or anyone else in the meetings) will not be ostracised. This, I'm afraid, is a very real fear. TG has been working with the police in NI over the months since the report was made and understands his obligations from a legal perspective. With all this in mind, I have every confidence that the situation will be dealt with appropriately. I DO NOT have the confidence that the situation will be conveyed to the friends appropriately as this has not been done in Ireland regarding the elderly offender. Whispers and rumours are often more damaging than a simple factual statement. With a brief statement, the friends will have some confidence that the workers are taking the issue seriously. I understand they may not wish to commit something of this nature to paper but its not that difficult to contact every pair of workers who can then inform the bishops of meetings and the information passed verbally. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 9:16:10 GMT -5
Whispers and rumours are often more damaging than a simple factual statement. With a brief statement, the friends will have some confidence that the workers are taking the issue seriously. I understand they may not wish to commit something of this nature to paper but its not that difficult to contact every pair of workers who can then inform the bishops of meetings and the information passed verbally. oh, if only this had been done in Scotland, what a difference to parents in the fellowship. There's still some time to do this. PLEASE do this for us. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 10:04:22 GMT -5
September, I understand TG would be a mandated reporter in NI, by virtue of being an ordinary member of the public (evertone is mandated), not by way of his ministerial position. In the rest of the UK there is no mandated reporting, which makes TG's legal position in NI different from the rest of the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 11:19:52 GMT -5
just wondering back when CSA was committed and came to light many years ago (1980's?) in NORTHERN IRELAND I think there were some of the friends in the Police Force Wondering when they were aware of an allegation of CSA were they not duty bound to bring it to the attention of thier senior officers Or were they asked by the workers what could be done to keep it quiet. the reason I ask this is because I believe at least one of the friends in Scotland is a Police Officer,who may be stationed on one of the islands or a remote part of Scotland When he hears of this is he not duty bound to bring it to the attention of his senior officers. Maybe he doesn't have to but I would see it as withholding information regarding a person suspected of a serious crime I AM NOT TAKING AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT THE WORKERS SHOULD BE DUTY BOUND TO REPORT THE CRIME, EVEN IF NOT BY LAW PRAYER IS SO SO NEEDFUL I HOPE THE VICTIM HAS THE COURAGE TO SEE THIS THROUGH AND ADMIRE THEM FOR THE STAND THEY HAVE TAKEN Strictly speaking once a police officer is made aware of possible criminal circumstances he/she is duty bound to cause investigation into the circumstances. Of course circumstances affect matters as well as degree of seriousness, etc. The investigation of most crimes depends upon a victim's willingness to complain (report), since the outcome of an investigation is heavily dependent upon this. I understand the victim in this instance is receiving professional help and is undecided as to whether to complain or not. It looks as though the question of reporting is being addressed whatever the outcome. Perhaps the professionals have been in contact with the appropriate Family Protection Dept and are following their guidance or are following agreed procedures? |
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Feb 28, 2012 12:14:48 GMT -5
Hi
FYI excommunication is not standard in Scotland.
When my grandfather was found guilty of CSA he was "reprimanded" and from my recollection did not take an active part in meetings but still attended.
What really stuck in our throats was that he was then allowed at a later date to stand up at a convention and speak.
The workers in Scotland could really do with asking for professional help to deal with all this. I doubt very much this will happen.
I am delighted to hear that the survivor has been having professional counselling - it saved my life.
Karen
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 12:22:51 GMT -5
I am delighted to hear that the survivor has been having professional counselling - it saved my life.
Karen
Karen I am very thankful that you mentioned this. It goes a long way towards keeping the focus on the primary concern in this case, ie the victim (survivor).
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Feb 28, 2012 12:49:31 GMT -5
Yes, we need to remember the survivor is the one who needs support. And if they are seen to be given it, and not condemned for speaking out, then it may encourage others who have suffered to be less afraid of doing so. I used to feel that I had burdened others when I told them about my own situation, ( due to some rather strange reactions!) but with the right help - professional - I realised that I was finally UN - burdening myself from years of torture.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 13:07:25 GMT -5
Good advice and insight Karen.
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Feb 28, 2012 15:55:08 GMT -5
Whispers and rumours are often more damaging than a simple factual statement. With a brief statement, the friends will have some confidence that the workers are taking the issue seriously. I understand they may not wish to commit something of this nature to paper but its not that difficult to contact every pair of workers who can then inform the bishops of meetings and the information passed verbally. oh, if only this had been done in Scotland, what a difference to parents in the fellowship. There's still some time to do this. PLEASE do this for us. Oh, if only this had been done in Australia, what a difference to parents in the fellowship. There's still some time to do this. PLEASE do this for us.
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Post by bystander on Feb 28, 2012 16:43:16 GMT -5
A victim learned that he was still afforded worker privileges and informed TG that she would be reporting the offender to the police. TG insisted she shouldn't but the victim did report him. TG has since apologised for his failure in grasping the gravity of the situation and has urged anyone affected by the elderly offender (or anyone else) to go to the police and to inform him, TG of the circumstances and he will offer his full support. This is progress of course, but TG must somehow convey this to the friends and assure them that anyone informing the police of abuse by a worker (or anyone else in the meetings) will not be ostracised. This, I'm afraid, is a very real fear. TG has been working with the police in NI over the months since the report was made and understands his obligations from a legal perspective. With all this in mind, I have every confidence that the situation will be dealt with appropriately. I DO NOT have the confidence that the situation will be conveyed to the friends appropriately as this has not been done in Ireland regarding the elderly offender. Whispers and rumours are often more damaging than a simple factual statement. With a brief statement, the friends will have some confidence that the workers are taking the issue seriously. I understand they may not wish to commit something of this nature to paper but its not that difficult to contact every pair of workers who can then inform the bishops of meetings and the information passed verbally. Well said about the simplicity of the ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL process of openly informing the whole church in Scotland. Like your experience with TG, the ONLY way workers are going to understand the gravity is for police to be involved. Victims of this perpetrator in Scotland, PLEASE CONSIDER for the sake of the church in Scotland, doing what workers seem incapable of and giving priority to the needs of the church... by reporting to police. You will be well supported by all friends worldwide who want to see child abuse amongst us ERADICATED! |
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Post by bystander on Feb 28, 2012 17:11:06 GMT -5
September, I understand TG would be a mandated reporter in NI, by virtue of being an ordinary member of the public (evertone is mandated), not by way of his ministerial position. In the rest of the UK there is no mandated reporting, which makes TG's legal position in NI different from the rest of the UK. Come on ram, for a self-proclaimed 'servant of the living God' to not hold to HIGHER standards than what the law might require is, in our view, indefensible. Please try and see this from more than a narrow legal perspective. I'm sure based on Scots law, clever legal minds could exonerate the workers, even a self-confessed perpetrator of child sexual abuse. But that is not JUST what this is about! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 17:33:56 GMT -5
September, I understand TG would be a mandated reporter in NI, by virtue of being an ordinary member of the public (evertone is mandated), not by way of his ministerial position. In the rest of the UK there is no mandated reporting, which makes TG's legal position in NI different from the rest of the UK. Come on ram, for a self-proclaimed 'servant of the living God' to not hold to HIGHER standards than what the law might require is, in our view, indefensible. Please try and see this from more than a narrow legal perspective. I'm sure based on Scots law, clever legal minds could exonerate the workers, even a self-confessed perpetrator of child sexual abuse. But that is not JUST what this is about! I was merely pointing out the legal difference since a legal equation was inferred. Nothing more. If you had been following the Michigan and JF threads you would be well aquaint with my moral position. |
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Post by bystander on Feb 28, 2012 17:39:24 GMT -5
I was merely pointing out the legal difference since a legal equation was inferred. Nothing more. If you had been following the Michigan and JF threads you would be well aquaint with my moral position. Sorry I haven't. Thank you! |
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Post by Supercalifragilistic on Feb 28, 2012 19:15:55 GMT -5
September can u please pm me if u see this thanks
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Post by September on Feb 28, 2012 19:47:54 GMT -5
September, I understand TG would be a mandated reporter in NI, by virtue of being an ordinary member of the public (evertone is mandated), not by way of his ministerial position. In the rest of the UK there is no mandated reporting, which makes TG's legal position in NI different from the rest of the UK. I was assuming TG would only offer advice, given that Scotland isn't his jurisdiction. I am also assuming that he might offer good advice... |
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