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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 9:19:18 GMT -5
I've heard the name of the Worker Involved who is not known to me apart from a name that's been on lists for many years. But the only elaboration doing the rounds amongst F&W is "He is unable to continue in the work" The safety of our children and grandchildren, and healing of any abused surely must be the top priority in all of this. How does saying “ xxxx is unable to continue in the work” help with children’s safety and healing ? Why is this being said and not the full truth? Fortunately I found a worker who was prepared to be open enough so I can consider my own family’s position on this. But what of those who know nothing of this who are spread across the country and may potentially have a ‘harmed’ relative in their midst? The response so far to this strains credibility. Why not state things straightforwardly? What has been the thought process in all this? – I really hope it isn’t around protection of the work’s reputation- because even if any were tempted into that sort of thinking, surely they must see that long term their credibility would be rocked as things unravel and become known little by little. Openness would start the healing and would help the new leadership get everything cleaned up from the outset instead of this matter rumbling on and on. I simply cannot understand the response seen up to now. Can the response so far, be reconciled with love and care for defenceless children or ,worse than that, already harmed children? To be fair, one thing that has been achieved is that the perpetrator has been removed and presumably is no longer moving around from house to house that have families – actually I hope that is sorted- is anyone sure of that? I wonder if it is felt that by removing the worker that that means the problem has effectively been dealt with. If so, how misguided can you get - with nothing being done or communicated that will help those in most need here i.e. the abused. I must say I feel this injustice to the most innocent and defenceless in our fellowship most intensely. Are there others with families that feel the same fear, hurt and concern ? I have acquaintances who have been abused as children and the effect on them was profound. Counselling was much needed. I do agree with Budgie that prayers are needed for all here – Alan, the other overseers who are helping him, the perpetrator, and particularly the victim(s) |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 9:54:49 GMT -5
Your post is exactly right imo daphne. Generically, the way I see it, there are at least two vital things to be done with regard to the offender at the point in a case where a worker is allegedly accused and confessed:
1.Inform all those who "need to know" the reasons for the removal of the worker. This would include at least some meeting elders and parents with children. Depending on circumstances, it could include all F&Ws in region.
2.Request the alleged offender to turn himself into the authorities to begin the process of making things right. Advise him to receive professional counseling.
There are other things to be done, but these are two important matters regarding the offender. Some overseers in North America have done this properly. The Severud case is the one which is probably the best model for the ministry management group to do what is right.
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Post by onlooker on Feb 27, 2012 10:10:18 GMT -5
Re "He's unable to continue in the work".
Maybe the situation is indeed being handled on a 'need to know' basis in which case nobody who is unlikely to have been at risk is told anything, or benefits from that knowledge. There has to be sympathy for the victim and opportunity for others who might be at risk to come forwards but I don't think there is benefit in promulgating any stories. And whilst I have no doubt the workers will do everything to defend the system (which they would say is perfect in its plan but subject to mankind's imperfections) it would be good if there was a feeling that they sypmathise with people who might be affected.
When Jesus mentioned, Matthew 18, that offences would come, and that it would be better for whoso offends a little one which believes in him to have been drowned in the sea, I believe this was the kind of offence he had in mind, not just the occasional offputting comment. That is why the damage is so grievous. I hope the workers will assure friends in the spirit of what Jesus was then saying, because for the victim(s) I can understand that it would be very difficult for her/them to want to stay in the same fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 10:23:54 GMT -5
On the face of it at the moment this is a historical case of some antiquity. It might be a one off occurrence by this worker. Also, we do not know how serious the actions were. We must be circumspect at this stage.
First and foremost the needs of the victim must come first. It appears she needs time to come to a decision over whether to report the matter or not.
Next, we need to find out if this was a one-off, isolated matter by this worker, or if there are other cases out there waiting to come to light. Only the police can properly establish this.
The church in Scotland needs reassurance. This worker is very popular amongst the friends in this country and has received hospitality from many, many friends who have or had children in their homes at the time. The need to know basis should include virtually everyone who has been visted by this worker whilst they have had children in their care, past and present. That almost includes the whole church in Scotland. There is also a clear duty to those no longer in the fellowship who have in the past been visited by this worker and also had children under their care at the time.
Even minor offences of a csa nature can be very damaging to the victims.
However, at this stage let us not go jumping to conclusions about possible court cases etc.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 27, 2012 10:26:06 GMT -5
Ram -
Aapproximately how many F&W are there in Scotland?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 10:27:50 GMT -5
On the face of it at the moment this is a historical case of some antiquity. It might be a one off occurrence by this worker. Also, we do not know how serious the actions were. First and foremost the needs of the victim must come first. It appears she needs time to come to a decision over whether to report the matter or not. Next, we need to find out if this was a one-off, isolated matter by this worker, or if there are other cases out there waiting to come to light. Only the police can properly establish this. The church in Scotland needs reassurance. This worker is very popular amongst the friends in this country and has received hospitality from many, many friends who have or had children in their homes at the time. The need to know basis should include virtually everyone who has been visted by this worker whilst they have had children in their care, past and present. That almost includes the whole church in Scotland. Even minor offences of a csa nature can be very damaging to the victims. Good post. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 10:57:23 GMT -5
Ram - Aapproximately how many F&W are there in Scotland? Cherie I have lost track of things. At a very rough guess I would suggest 500+ friends these days? Hopefully someone more up to date will provide more accurate details. I reckon about 20 workers with half a dozen or so being brother workers. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 27, 2012 11:00:51 GMT -5
How many conventions?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 11:06:56 GMT -5
Cherie, I forgot to consider the two northern regions of England, ie Northumberland and Cumbria, which which come under the Scottish workers' responsibility. This will enhance numbers quite a bit. There are now only three conventions. The first two take place on successive extended weekends at Gartocharn, Dunbartonshire. I think they get about 400 attendees. However, they come from far and wide including Ireland and a number of people attend both conventions. The third convention is at Dochray Hall Farm in Cumbria, just over the border in England. Numbers will be at least on a par with Gartocharn, if not more. Traditionally many Irish people attend Dochray also. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 11:30:23 GMT -5
10 pairs of workers and three conventions of 400 attendees each would suggest about 750 friends to me.....which is in line with Ram's estimate of 500 for the friends associated with the 2 Dunbartonshire conventions.
That's really not an unwieldy number to inform those who "need to know" of that group.
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Post by onlooker on Feb 27, 2012 12:08:34 GMT -5
Unwieldy?
1) I can never imagine the workers sending a letter/email around (it might fall into the wrong hands)
2) I can't imagine them asking the local workers in each area to notify the friends (I bet some of the staff would treat the whole matter as not an allegation they believe, period, (the work is perfect). Such message would probably get distorted. Ditto for the elders at each meeting group.
3) I can't imagine them holding mass meetings for the purpose
4) The overseer would be incapable of visiting everyone individually.
I guess they just hope for the main part to sweep it under the carpet and let it die a death of its own, if like RAM says this concerns allegations to do with something years ago. They will be in damage limitation mode, to protect the 'work' rather than the victim(s).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 12:58:55 GMT -5
There are bigger issues at stake here onlooker which will need to be addressed.
This worker has been in the work in Scotland for many years. He has probably been in the majority of homes where children have been brought up in the faith at some time or another.
Hopefully this is an isolated case, but until further details are known, every person who has brought up children in this way and has been visited by this worker, will have their own concerns.
These people will need reassurance AND brief but specific information about the allegations.
A proper enquiry will likely need to take place but in the meantime our concerns should be with the victim and the possibility of other cases.
Workers can be sent a prepared statement and asked to ensure that every member of the church in their field who might have raised children is informed. A list or check list can be compiled. It is not difficult.
It would also be a good vehicle for learning about any further cases if such exist.
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Post by onlooker on Feb 27, 2012 14:19:06 GMT -5
In spite of there being wider issues and bigger implications,there is no way that any workers I know would want to give chance for extra people to lodge their complaints unless they were required to do so by outside authorities or court of law.
They will rely on the antiquity of any allegations and just hope for the best.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 17:20:47 GMT -5
In spite of there being wider issues and bigger implications,there is no way that any workers I know would want to give chance for extra people to lodge their complaints unless they were required to do so by outside authorities or court of law. They will rely on the antiquity of any allegations and just hope for the best. The workers have a moral duty to inform the church. This issue is far bigger than the workers. It's time to rejoin planet Earth. There is no legal authority that can force the workers to do anything about this case. However, if they do not act in the best interests of the church and the children, they will soon end up in a huge mess of their own making. This is not about women cutting their hair, or divorced peiople remarrying or even TVs in peoples' homes. It is an issue where the workers must address the needs of the fellowship. If the workers do not show they are genuinely interested in the welfare of the church members and their children and any victims, they should be shown the door. |
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Post by onlooker on Feb 27, 2012 17:57:06 GMT -5
I spoke to a worker concerning the issue and all they would say was they would pray for the overseer
When I said there might be a predator upon an innocent victim who now needs all the support there was no comment.
If that's not defending the ministry at any expense I don't know what is, and it's not right. Totally introverted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 18:04:39 GMT -5
In spite of there being wider issues and bigger implications,there is no way that any workers I know would want to give chance for extra people to lodge their complaints unless they were required to do so by outside authorities or court of law. They will rely on the antiquity of any allegations and just hope for the best. The workers have a moral duty to inform the church. This issue is far bigger than the workers. It's time to rejoin planet Earth. There is no legal authority that can force the workers to do anything about this case. However, if they do not act in the best interests of the church and the children, they will soon end up in a huge mess of their own making. This is not about women cutting their hair, or divorced peiople remarrying or even TVs in peoples' homes. It is an issue where the workers must address the needs of the fellowship. If the workers do not show they are genuinely interested in the welfare of the church members and their children and any victims, they should be shown the door. I can not agree more. There are many aspects about the church I love and am happy to uphold to anyone. For instance I think our people, taken as a whole, hold a high set of values in this world. Overall the friends and workers have high levels of trustworthiness etc. I appreciate that very highly. But the way this is being handled makes me very very ashamed. I couldn’t defend this to anyone in the world- outsiders would be absolutely shocked if they knew the way we were handling it. I am actually not outraged by the fact that a worker needs to be removed - these things happen. I am very outraged by the fact that no thought is given to members of the fellowship being able to have the information they need so they can protect and help the families God has given them. This is absolutely outrageous. Is it ignorance, blindness, arrogance or something else? - I simply do not understand this. It smacks to me of acting a bit like the verse of the destitute brother where it says “And one of you say unto them ‘Depart in peace, be warmed and filled’ ; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful…..” Well, there’s plenty needful for parents and grandparents here at present – and comfortable words like “he couldn’t continue in the work” simply will not do. Come on. Stir yourselves and give the people in the Scottish fellowship the info they need so they can all fill their place as fathers and mothers in the family of God. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 18:08:43 GMT -5
I spoke to a worker concerning the issue and all they would say was they would pray for the overseer When I said there might be a predator upon an innocent victim who now needs all the support there was no comment. If that's not defending the ministry at any expense I don't know what is, and it's not right. Totally introverted. Yes it is conservative Scotland. The ministry has become a God within the fellowship. That needs to change. However, the priority is the victim. She needs time. This is a very sensitive issue for her and the last thing she needs is to be pushed into doing something she doesn't want to do (at least until she is ready). There is no need for urgency other than to properly inform the church in Scotland. The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. He is no longer a threat. |
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Post by onlooker on Feb 27, 2012 18:16:24 GMT -5
"The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. "
That is also something I find very sad
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 18:25:59 GMT -5
" The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. " That is also something I find very sad That all sounds too final to me. God can still work within him - if so, he has a future on earth and beyond. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2012 18:44:11 GMT -5
" The worker in question is finished, irrespective of whether this matter is reported to the authorities or not. All his long years in the work have come to naught. He has no Earthly future. " That is also something I find very sad That all sounds too final to me. God can still work within him - if so, he has a future on earth and beyond. I have great confidence that God has/will forgive this man's sins whatever they may be. I rely on this same merciful God. However, although God forgives sins, that does not mean we will not have to face the Earthly consequences of these sins. It is to this that I am referring. If these allegations have substance to them, he is finished as a worker. Period. |
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Post by pom on Feb 27, 2012 19:57:28 GMT -5
Openness would start the healing and would help the new leadership get everything cleaned up from the outset instead of this matter rumbling on and on. I simply cannot understand the response seen up to now. Is the new leadership squeeky clean? If they are conflicted then Scotland can hardly expect openness. Has the church in Scotland been fully informed yet of the allegations? Studies on paedophiles indicate that the number of victims they sexually molest is usually large. In the work, grooming of victims is automatically achieved because of the trust that is placed in workers. Opprtunities for a paedophile worker are almost boundless. The administration in Scotland must inform all church members fully and quickly. Else they have no credibility in this matter, and rumours and probable further allegations will eat away at the church like a nasty cancer amongst us. |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Feb 27, 2012 19:58:09 GMT -5
The workers have a moral duty to inform the church. This issue is far bigger than the workers. It's time to rejoin planet Earth. There is no legal authority that can force the workers to do anything about this case. However, if they do not act in the best interests of the church and the children, they will soon end up in a huge mess of their own making. This is not about women cutting their hair, or divorced peiople remarrying or even TVs in peoples' homes. It is an issue where the workers must address the needs of the fellowship. If the workers do not show they are genuinely interested in the welfare of the church members and their children and any victims, they should be shown the door. I can not agree more. There are many aspects about the church I love and am happy to uphold to anyone. For instance I think our people, taken as a whole, hold a high set of values in this world. Overall the friends and workers have high levels of trustworthiness etc. I appreciate that very highly. But the way this is being handled makes me very very ashamed. I couldn’t defend this to anyone in the world- outsiders would be absolutely shocked if they knew the way we were handling it. I am actually not outraged by the fact that a worker needs to be removed - these things happen. I am very outraged by the fact that no thought is given to members of the fellowship being able to have the information they need so they can protect and help the families God has given them. This is absolutely outrageous. Is it ignorance, blindness, arrogance or something else? - I simply do not understand this. It smacks to me of acting a bit like the verse of the destitute brother where it says “And one of you say unto them ‘Depart in peace, be warmed and filled’ ; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful…..” Well, there’s plenty needful for parents and grandparents here at present – and comfortable words like “he couldn’t continue in the work” simply will not do. Come on. Stir yourselves and give the people in the Scottish fellowship the info they need so they can all fill their place as fathers and mothers in the family of God. HI, UK FRIENDS, Hope you dont mind being infiltrated by an Aussie just this once. Dont expect too much info from workers, if any. They are flat out sweeping things under the carpet downunder. Some people have been told to go for asking questions, and a lot of others have left because of the situation. TRY READING (if you havnt already done so!) - CSA Vic worker update 19 pages - Letter to friends in Victoria and Tasmania 12 pages - Vic/Tas requests help from senior workers 15 pages Sorry so many pages to read (WINGS site) but it will give you an idea of friends in Australia worries and feelings on this subject. Warning though - be careful what you say and about whom. Be careful whose names and/or initials are mentioned. |
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Post by pom on Feb 27, 2012 20:00:41 GMT -5
If these allegations have substance to them, he is finished as a worker. Period. Admin says he has confessed, according to a worker. So we can remove the "if". Is it legal to post the name of the confessed perpetrator on the internet? Would it be legal for the workers to name the alleged perpetrator in a letter to the church in Scotland? |
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Post by onlooker on Feb 28, 2012 1:40:16 GMT -5
Scriptural guidance for workers
2 Corinthians 6
1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
I hope they will remember this scripture and wish they would not merely sweep things under the carpet (God's way is perfect etc).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 2:33:45 GMT -5
If these allegations have substance to them, he is finished as a worker. Period. Admin says he has confessed, according to a worker. So we can remove the "if". At this stage we have no knowledge what he has confessed to. Also nothing is proved so far. Is it legal to post the name of the confessed perpetrator on the internet? As this matter may become sub-judicae I think it best to refrain from this meantime.Would it be legal for the workers to name the alleged perpetrator in a letter to the church in Scotland? All they need to do is mention xxxxx xxxxx has been put out of the work following an allegation of sexual abuse with a minor many years ago. No harm in giving an honest explanation without going into details. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 2:37:38 GMT -5
Scriptural guidance for workers 2 Corinthians 6 1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. I hope they will remember this scripture and wish they would not merely sweep things under the carpet (God's way is perfect etc). The offending worker has been swept out of the work, not under the carpet. That is a good start until the victim has had time to decide what is best for her in the circumstances. Informing the church with brief honest details at this stage would be very appropriate. Other than that let's not be too hasty with things for the time being. |
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Post by bystander on Feb 28, 2012 2:53:06 GMT -5
At this stage we have no knowledge what he has confessed to. Also nothing is proved so far. It seems you and many others will only believe a worker has committed a criminal and evil act on a child, if the worker is convicted in a court of law. What other "proof" can you suggest? Victims note, if you want to be believed, go to police. The sad part of this stance is, victims who for whatever reason do not wish to go to police, might as well just shut up and suffer in silence. |
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Post by rjkee on Feb 28, 2012 3:04:04 GMT -5
Has the offending worker been excommunicated?
Regards
Robert
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