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Post by September on Feb 28, 2012 19:50:36 GMT -5
September can u please pm me if u see this thanks Can't! I'm not registered. PM Matt10. He can direct you to me by other means. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2012 20:04:47 GMT -5
ram, let me ask you this. You now too seem to have knowledge that this man has apparently confessed to sexually abusing one child while in a position of trust as a worker. Is "outing him from the work" the proper and adequate response; a) of a church upholding the standard of holiness of Christ? b) of a church committed to protecting all children in future from such vile wickedness? You also mention the confession relates to an offence against this child a long number of X years ago. You have directed this at ram and he will no doubt answer but I would like a shot at answering as well. Why has it taken so very long for the victim to only now be believed? No idea. Do you know? There could be a number of reasons- a new victim came forward to give credence to the first victim?, other evidence has somehow come to light?, the perpetrator confessed.?, there may be other reasons. Yes I have some knowledge in what I say. Those who disbelieved X long years ago, have other children been sexually abused as a result? This is an absolutely key point. Any why I am appalled that no one has been notifying the members of the fellowship with a consistent message of what is going on. People simply must have the information to protect their young and to help victims. This has been a truly shocking oversight. We agree on the priority of the victim's needs now. But why has she been forced to suffer cruelly all those long years? I don’t know- sadly it may be because she was not believed years ago. Do you know? All I know is that all of us should be loaded to the hilt with sympathy whenever we find any who have suffered such abuse.. Has the church and its system seriously failed this victim? Obviously and we should all feel very humbled by it. Is not this the [in bold][underlined] lesson [/in bold][/underlined] we need to learn in Scotland?
But we should at least acknowledge that steps were taken here to remove a perpetrator – what we do need to learn is that when cases arise, those in the know provide the necessary information to enable members of the fellowship to fulfil their own responsibilities to families and victims.
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Post by September on Feb 28, 2012 20:09:54 GMT -5
oh, if only this had been done in Scotland, what a difference to parents in the fellowship. There's still some time to do this. PLEASE do this for us. Oh, if only this had been done in Australia, what a difference to parents in the fellowship. There's still some time to do this. PLEASE do this for us.  If it had been done here in Ireland then the police may never have been notified. The victim who reported the offender was incensed by the incompetent handling and indifference shown by the senior workers in allowing the offender to continue in his role as a worker (albeit "resting") and indeed encouraged. There was a comfortable seat set aside at convention with his name on it and he was clearly expected to show up for the workers' photograph as he is seated artfully to balance a row of sister workers flanked by two elderly brothers. At least two other brother workers (one TG's assistant) knew that the offender had been removed from the work but chose to ignore that tiny detail. The workers must remember in all of this, quite apart from the Christian expectation of correct handling, quite apart from the legal obligations of reporting, they are doing what they are doing on the strength of handouts from the friends. If trust is abused in such a cavalier manner and lives blighted or crushed by the actions of people to whom trust is automatically afforded, the friends have a very fundamental right to accountability of workers' actions, if not their spending habits. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 3:35:46 GMT -5
September, I understand TG would be a mandated reporter in NI, by virtue of being an ordinary member of the public (evertone is mandated), not by way of his ministerial position. In the rest of the UK there is no mandated reporting, which makes TG's legal position in NI different from the rest of the UK. I was assuming TG would only offer advice, given that Scotland isn't his jurisdiction. I am also assuming that he might offer good advice... Thanks for the clarification September. I hope you are right! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 3:39:49 GMT -5
ram, let me ask you this. You now too seem to have knowledge that this man has apparently confessed to sexually abusing one child while in a position of trust as a worker. Is "outing him from the work" the proper and adequate response; a) of a church upholding the standard of holiness of Christ? b) of a church committed to protecting all children in future from such vile wickedness? You also mention the confession relates to an offence against this child a long number of X years ago. You have directed this at ram and he will no doubt answer but I would like a shot at answering as well. Why has it taken so very long for the victim to only now be believed? No idea. Do you know? There could be a number of reasons- a new victim came forward to give credence to the first victim?, other evidence has somehow come to light?, the perpetrator confessed.?, there may be other reasons. Yes I have some knowledge in what I say. Those who disbelieved X long years ago, have other children been sexually abused as a result? This is an absolutely key point. Any why I am appalled that no one has been notifying the members of the fellowship with a consistent message of what is going on. People simply must have the information to protect their young and to help victims. This has been a truly shocking oversight. We agree on the priority of the victim's needs now. But why has she been forced to suffer cruelly all those long years? I don’t know- sadly it may be because she was not believed years ago. Do you know? All I know is that all of us should be loaded to the hilt with sympathy whenever we find any who have suffered such abuse.. Has the church and its system seriously failed this victim? Obviously and we should all feel very humbled by it. Is not this the [in bold][underlined] lesson [/in bold][/underlined] we need to learn in Scotland?
But we should at least acknowledge that steps were taken here to remove a perpetrator – what we do need to learn is that when cases arise, those in the know provide the necessary information to enable members of the fellowship to fulfil their own responsibilities to families and victims.
Bystander, I notice your OP has disappeared, although daphne has preserved it by quoting it. There are some of your questions that I am not in a position to answer and there are others which I feel are too sensitive to answer publicly considering the current circumstances of this case. If you wish me to answer what I feel able to then please pm me. |
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Post by onlooker on Feb 29, 2012 4:46:46 GMT -5
Does anyone happen to know how long ago this incident occured?
eg 5,10 years ago?
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Post by bystander on Feb 29, 2012 5:53:35 GMT -5
X years ago!  |
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Post by bystander on Feb 29, 2012 5:55:55 GMT -5
ram, where did it go?
I wish I could PM you. Maybe I will enrol.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 6:45:15 GMT -5
ram, where did it go? I wish I could PM you. Maybe I will enrol. Please do. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 2:15:03 GMT -5
It’s early in the morning but my heart aches.
I believe that the sheep are still left alone in ignorance.
I have heard that one elder has spoken to the people in his meetings giving them the basic facts of what has happened in their midst. That will have been very helpful and reassuring.
Does anyone know if any others have had the necessary information given them so they can verify their own family situation?
Certainly yesterday we had a call from another who had not heard anything but simply sensed something was amiss. Yes, my heart aches.
When are you going to tell your people what they need so they can protect their families? Will we all know something relevant and factual soon….., later this year perhaps………… next year maybe …… How long O Lord, how Long?
We need consistent facts now to fulfil our responsibilities ……….PLEASE
I now suspect that those in overseer roles feel they have done a good job. They have removed a perpetrator, which we rightly can thank them for. But it is not the time to then sit back and feel we’ve completed our task on this for the church. Not at all.
Is someone close enough to them and able to show them the ignorance and inconsiderateness in such thinking? Can they perhaps show them that mothers and grandmothers (and fathers and grandfathers) need to have information given them so that they can rest easy that their children are safe and have never been harmed and damaged in the past.
Is there anyone can help us one who can understand our hearts, when the thorns of life have pierced them till they bleed.
Is there anyone can help us when our heart is burdened down with pain and woe.
Well we know there is one and I hope I can be restful enough to find him this morning, but is there anyone he can use to help bring comfort and rest to the people collectively in Scotland?
Please shepherd your sheep. The sheep are wanting to feel safe in the fold. They want to know they and their lambs are safe there. They don’t enjoy feeling isolated and uncertain. They look to the shepherds for help in that.
Please feed and nurture them.
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Post by onlooker on Mar 1, 2012 2:29:35 GMT -5
Daphne's is an urgent appeal, a cry for help. I wonder if anyone is listening? I wonder if any English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh workers are reading the board? If they don't heed the needy cry, surely there's someone on here who knows a Scottish name and address, or preferably multiple of such (so that the message definitely gets to someone) to which the whole thread could be printed off and posted?
While I doubt the workers list would contain a 'permanent' official address of any kind, surely the convention grounds would be the nearest you can get to that. Alternatively who are the superior saints there nowadays? I believe they have lots of special meetings in the central area, eg Stirling, Edinburgh, Glasgow, surely someone would have a great responsibility to deliver the post if it has the name of a high ranking worker care of a superior saint! It is the least that can be done.
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Post by onlooker on Mar 1, 2012 3:44:56 GMT -5
On second thoughts the same material could be copied to all of the sister workers on the Scottish list. I have reason to believe some female workers have reacted with incredulity to any of this. The males might not be surprised!
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Post by sharonw on Mar 1, 2012 12:03:15 GMT -5
It seems you and many others will only believe a worker has committed a criminal and evil act on a child, if the worker is convicted in a court of law. What other "proof" can you suggest? Victims note, if you want to be believed, go to police. The sad part of this stance is, victims who for whatever reason do not wish to go to police, might as well just shut up and suffer in silence.
Nobody is disbelieving the victim. Rather its the opposite I think. However the situation at the moment is a very delicate one for the victim. Often the wheels of justice turn slowly. This matter has just come to light after X amount of years of suffering by the victim. This is not a time for hasty, knee jerk reactions. Calculated responses based upon what is known is the best way forward.All I know about this case is that the victim has made it known to workers that at some distant time in the past another worker carried out some kind of sexual act on her as a minor. So far no official statement has been made to the authorities by the victim as far as I know. One or more workers have approached the worker in question and he has apparently admitted the allegation. As a result he has been put out the work.I'm sorry that this ordeal is so hush-hush because of that act was some years ago, there is every chance that there are other victims out there....and they need to be encouraged that it is good and well to come forward now! My prayer is for the victim(s) that their courage is well endowed! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 12:04:48 GMT -5
Those are interesting ideas of yours, onlooker. Thanks also for your 'feeling' expressed in your first response.
I’m sure many of us have expressed things a bit unclearly on this thread, but the themes within the thread should still be clear to any recipients of them
Hopefully it could be used to help this situation.
It would be good if saints and servants could all see the way to deal with things better and rightly. We need to be all in this together –workers and saints.
I feel deeply for families here.
I also have questioned myself today - am I meant to say nothing and shut down my mind on all this subject.
I looked at hymn 287 this morning about leaving it all to Jesus and wondered if I was meant to take the path of trying to block this all out of my mind.
But the hymn is actually quite interesting.
The chorus says:
I will leave it all to Jesus
For I know He understands
Things in life I cannot alter
I will leave in Jesus hands
It didn’t say ignore everything.
It mentions things I cannot alter that I will leave in Jesus hands
But the things we have been discussing can be altered and need to be altered.
So it’s important that its persevered with – a bit like that widow woman in Luke 18. To have some tenacity to ensure right is done for our children.
I drew some strength from that today.
The first verse is something similar
When my heart is heavy burdened
And I cannot understand (I can relate to that)
What I have no power over
I will leave in Jesus hands
Again it doesn’t say I’m to block everything out.
It speaks of things I have no power over, I will leave in Jesus hands
I do feel I have no power/strength at all in this
But I’m sure there are brothers and sisters who do have some strength
Maybe there is someone who has a little power and strength who can help to get us the information we desperately need.
An elder perhaps
Or someone close to the workers
We need to keep focussed on helping the workers to see what parents and grandparents are desperate to hear in order to support our family members. Always seeking to keep our spirit right, but firm in what it is that’s needed.
We need to all be together on this – workers and saints
We need and want there to be unity across God’s family in Scotland. But that unity has to be unity in things that are true and right.
Please keep praying for all and praying for right to be done.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 1, 2012 12:07:54 GMT -5
I wonder is the reason why there's been no open communication with the church because those men/boys are simply embarrassed about the whole subject? On the other hand it could be because others amongst them are on shaky ground sexually and fearing for their own skins and reputations? This is the problem. People are left wondering. It may be that so far the workers are fulfilling the victim's wishes ? That's one thing to wonder about. The victim is receiving professional help. The professionals may well be in contact with a police family protection dept for advice/guidance etc. That's another thing to be wondering about. Also it may be the workers are worried about what else and who else is about to come out of the bag. That's another thing to be wondering about. A short frank letter to all the friends in Scotland would go a long way towards addressing peoples' concerns. This is an extremely delicate matter for the victim who needs time to decide what is best for her. Ram, I don't understand a general letter from the workers to all the churches that the accused worker has been in which is probably all of those homes, how the letter would be against the victim...she doesn't have to be named or even alluded to....but a CSA letter to the friends is necessary to ascertain IF there is any possibility there are more victims out there. The worker who sends these letters do not have to name the worker IF that worker has been in all the homes in Scotland...although it would help the victims if there are any, to know who has admitted to the act. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 12:50:47 GMT -5
This is the problem. People are left wondering. It may be that so far the workers are fulfilling the victim's wishes ? That's one thing to wonder about. The victim is receiving professional help. The professionals may well be in contact with a police family protection dept for advice/guidance etc. That's another thing to be wondering about. Also it may be the workers are worried about what else and who else is about to come out of the bag. That's another thing to be wondering about. A short frank letter to all the friends in Scotland would go a long way towards addressing peoples' concerns. This is an extremely delicate matter for the victim who needs time to decide what is best for her. Ram, I don't understand a general letter from the workers to all the churches that the accused worker has been in which is probably all of those homes, how the letter would be against the victim...she doesn't have to be named or even alluded to....but a CSA letter to the friends is necessary to ascertain IF there is any possibility there are more victims out there. The worker who sends these letters do not have to name the worker IF that worker has been in all the homes in Scotland...although it would help the victims if there are any, to know who has admitted to the act. I'm not sure I am understanding you here Sharon. This matter has just come out. The workers have a responsibility to inform the whole church in Scotland that xxxxxx xxxxxx has been removed from the work along with brief details of the reason why. The victim should not be named. With regards the victim this appears to be a very delicate situation. We do not know what her wishes are as things stand. |
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Mar 2, 2012 1:08:10 GMT -5
In my opinion, workers need to stop pretending they are itinerant. Most have an address they use for contact.
I am a lead signatory for CRBS in Scotland- the governing body for disclosure in Scotland. If the workers got themselves onto this system, it would go a long way to starting the process of protecting themselves and the children they are in contact with ,and also re- assuring parents. It is not a foolproof system in anyway, but a START. The workers need to stop burying their heads in the sand and acknowledge that they have to do something. It also opens the doors to educating them in child protection.
I know it's unlikely to happen .......
Karen
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 2, 2012 5:06:05 GMT -5
Hi Karen,
Have to agree with everything you say. Lots of hushing up and carpet sweeping in Oz. If only they would be honest with us!!!!!!!! The Man Mouse is devastated that this is happening again.
Feel sorry for Daphne, a very sad and hurt lady there. We feel just the same. From the Mumma Mouse.
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Post by To Angelina on Mar 2, 2012 5:15:08 GMT -5
Hey Angelina
They're looking for people like you at wingsbts...
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 2, 2012 5:20:12 GMT -5
As I have said on here before. Check out the sites on WINGS re CSA in Oz. Lot of reading there. Same comments as here, only these have Scottish accent.  |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Mar 2, 2012 5:29:51 GMT -5
READ - ON Breaking the Silence. "Senior Worker Confesses" Post 29.
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Mar 2, 2012 6:02:30 GMT -5
Thank you - I have just done that. Hopefully the Scottish workers will be aware of this situation and take on board what has been happening in Aus to try and move towards better child protection understanding.
Karen
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 8:06:34 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of anyone hearing anything definitive from any worker in the last couple of days.
Has anyone heard anything they are saying at all on the changes.
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Post by emerald on Mar 2, 2012 9:49:26 GMT -5
Has anyone heard of anyone hearing anything definitive from any worker in the last couple of days. Has anyone heard anything they are saying at all on the changes. I've heard that they're sending some young English workers to Scotland. Apparently they're trying to boost worker numbers in Scotland and there aren't enough young Scottish people offering. |
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Post by onlooker on Mar 2, 2012 11:48:56 GMT -5
But years ago I heard some of the English who went to Scotland returned as nervous wrecks.
Perhaps either they found out something which made them uncomfortable, else they might not have been integrated very well, or maybe the native population was just cold towards them
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Post by simon on Mar 2, 2012 23:29:28 GMT -5
Like Mumma Mouse, our deep symathies here also. Last evening some of us (workers & friends) talked together about the writings on this thread. Some of us here have been very moved by the obvious anguish and care being expressed.
To my shame , I found a large disparity in the feelings voiced, between parents and workers. The one group had feelings they could barely adequately voice, so deep was the intensity of their emotions. The other group, understandably enough, skilled in verbal arts, but feelings not so intense.
Understandable, but not acceptable
As I say, it was to my shame, because as we thrashed it out, as to what we can do ( for you, for ourselves, should it ever raise its ugly head amongst us here) is simply this - we can find no answer. Could we go to the older worker in this country and plead for his help, to try and persuade other workers to be frank, open , compassionate in caring for both victim and perp ? Zero chance of any positive outcome, based on his reputation of being committed to a policy of non-intervention in similar cases that have arisen in other parts of his area of jurisdiction.
So - it seems we are left for every man alone to guard his castle, fearing to open his doors to welcome some in, and damned and misunderstood if he doesn’t. Trapped. I am so sorry, as I have been watching workers' reactions (on this board and off) for over a year now, and am left with some disturbing questions. It seems to me we are like sheep and lambs meandering in a fog, where fear and anguish increases the longer it takes for the shepherd(s) to reach out and dispel the angst and ease the hurts. I just wish there was a ready answer.
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Post by Karen Fletcher on Mar 2, 2012 23:52:27 GMT -5
Simon
I read with great sympathy your post above, and commend you for your honesty.
I don't claim to understand much about how workers think, but having been on the receiving end of their dealings with my pedophile grandfather, one thing is very sure - they are out of their depth when dealing with CSA. That is no shame. Most of us are. What we CAN do is admit it, and ask the appropriate learned profession for help.
I appreciate that ,for the workers, it is an admission of losing control, but at what cost? Children would be safer, parents would be reassured, and lastly , but importantly for the workers, they would be protecting their chosen way of life.
I wish they could see it.....
Karen
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2012 3:46:08 GMT -5
Thanks you for what you wrote Simon. I can relate very much to the sheep and lambs you mention meandering in a fog. And I can tell you they are bleating loudly in their anxiety and isolation. But we can’t get any to hear.
PLEASE hear us.
You seem to have good links with workers. I wish I had opportunities to talk as freely with them as you do. I admit to some envy and longing on that point. Are you fairly local? – i.e. one of the jurisdictions of the UK and potentially a person who could get us the help we desperately need?
The perpetrator has been removed which is good news….. But the sheep……. They’ve been left totally alone. They are in that fog you talk about bleating continually out of fear as they seek protection particularly for their young. They’re bleating because they know there’s danger about, but they are uncertain what it is. Many have lambs beside them and they instinctively know they need to protect them. But from what, from where. They don’t know what. They haven’t been told. They are trying to gauge it all, and have this hope ‘Surely a shepherd is coming soon’. Someone must be coming to deal with this and help make us safe again…….. but don’t know which way to head or what to do in the meantime. …….Do I stay still…. No it feels very unsafe.. (another bleat)… better move on… but where to…… will someone ever come.
Look, come on you guides. GIVE YOUR PEOPLE WHAT THEY NEED….. NOW……
….are you really going to let them bleat through this day……. ……… and then do you then expect them on Sunday morning to open their hymn book and choose to sing together ‘Where is all is restful calm and still’…………….. or perhaps ‘ how fresh and green those pastures fair.’ Sheep and lambs in a fog don’t feel much like feasting at present on pastures fair … correction, they’d like to, but are lacking the feeling of rest that enables them and their lambs to settle happily to feed……. Oh now, this fog feels cold and dense…. Have to move on alone……… BLEAT………. Anybody there?..... my lambs also subconsciously feel my uncertainty too…..BLEAT from them too…… oh, is that a shepherd coming there…… if only……. it was my mind playing tricks in the fog because of some desire to keep hoping.
PLEASE help your flock.
Wonder how many other sheep I’ll come across today….. all in the same condition…… Oh, there’s one – ‘any word of information at all about what to do’…..No? ..... BLEAT …… let’s move on ………we have each other but no deep comfort there….. none has the words (information) that can set us sheep free in soul and that would enable us to care for our lambs.
Even sheep have hope….. surely a shepherd must come ….. maybe today……... …………come quickly please.
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