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Post by ronhall on Feb 15, 2012 16:08:27 GMT -5
And who, may I ask, is the CEO of the f&w group? For the purposes of my analogy........the overseer of an area, state or territory. I wonder who the chief overseer (or Chairman of the Board) would be??That's who I am interested in knowing -- and not just knowing about! Anyone know who he is? How about a phone number or other method of contact? |
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Post by Bad ger M on Feb 15, 2012 16:37:54 GMT -5
For the purposes of my analogy........the overseer of an area, state or territory. I wonder who the chief overseer (or Chairman of the Board) would be??That's who I am interested in knowing -- and not just knowing about! Anyone know who he is? How about a phone number or other method of contact? The Royal Telephone. Telephone to glory, oh, what joy divine! I can feel the current moving down the line. Made by God the Father for His very own You may talk to Jesus on this royal telephone carolynspreciousmemories.com/.../TheRoyalTelephone_JimmyLittle... |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on Feb 15, 2012 21:46:25 GMT -5
;DMy witty Badger. Glad to see you back.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 22:34:14 GMT -5
The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In an Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate.
Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers.
I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in.
A good example of an Apostolic, Pastoral system that works would be the Catholic Church. Yes some will say they have CSA, they also have a pastoral facility to deal with it.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Feb 15, 2012 22:44:51 GMT -5
The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In a Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate. Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers. I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in. Agreed redback - but that would remove one of the key points of doctrine - the ministry without a home... |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2012 22:52:52 GMT -5
pa1ag1 the Apostolic workers would be a ministry without a home.
If there is a shortage of workers the Elders could take over the Pastoral role.
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Post by Just Me on Feb 15, 2012 23:15:12 GMT -5
Right. Apostolic ministers are Church planters. They preach the Gospel bringing people to Christ and then move on. The believers are part of the Church. These believers either went back to their original Church or gathered together in a new Church. The workers should have let the appointed deacons select the Pastoral Minister. That is what the Apostolic foundation was. Church planters. The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In a Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate. Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers. I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in. A good example of an Apostolic, Pastoral system that works would be the Catholic Church. Yes some will say they have CSA, they also have a pastoral facility to deal with it. |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 15, 2012 23:58:04 GMT -5
;DMy witty Badger. Glad to see you back. this is getting like Wind in the Willows. ;D Who's the Rat?  |
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Post by spidercam on Feb 16, 2012 0:03:46 GMT -5
Right. Apostolic ministers are Church planters. They preach the Gospel bringing people to Christ and then move on. The believers are part of the Church. These believers either went back to their original Church or gathered together in a new Church. The workers should have let the appointed deacons select the Pastoral Minister. That is what the Apostolic foundation was. Church planters. Some pretty interesting discussion here. So how do you set this up? Within or without the current system? |
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Post by Ju on Feb 16, 2012 0:44:10 GMT -5
The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In an Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate. Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers. I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in. A good example of an Apostolic, Pastoral system that works would be the Catholic Church. Yes some will say they have CSA, they also have a pastoral facility to deal with it. This is interesting and insightful. So how to creat the change? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 1:00:26 GMT -5
spidercam within the current system. I know there are many very sincere 2x2's in Victoria, that I communicate with. They would like to see change so as problems like CSA are addressed. This will not happen unless the overseers are made aware that the system at the moment lacks pastoral care. This cannot be provided by the current workers, as they are supposed to be Apostolic. Hence there is a vacuum.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 1:16:10 GMT -5
Ju I believe there are enough friends in Victoria who should approach the overseer, and point out that pastoral care is needed. This is not a criticism of workers but recognition that their role is Apostolic, and dedicated to preaching the Gospel. I think the forming of a committee of Elders would be a good start. I do have experience in the pastoral care area, as I once was the treasurer of a Church, even though I was not a member of that Church. They did not insist on me becoming a member. As a member of the committee I found it worked well, and was great support to the Minister.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Feb 16, 2012 1:44:42 GMT -5
pa1ag1 the Apostolic workers would be a ministry without a home. If there is a shortage of workers the Elders could take over the Pastoral role. The independent baptist movement seeks to follow that pattern - missionaries, pastors, elders, etc - they do try to follow NT patterns and don't have a hierarchy controlling who does or doesn't. The church is managed locally and is spirit led. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 1:51:01 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a significant number of workers who would love to give up the elder work and focus on evangelism.
It won't happen though and here's why: the people who are in "power" are there because they are attracted to power. And power is a funny thing, once those people have it, they never give it up freely. That's just the nature of the beast. Check out any totalitarian state and almost 100% of them had to be replaced as a result of bloodshed. There are a few exceptions but it goes against the nature of people who have obtained power.
At some point something like this may be forced on them though. If worker numbers start to decline rapidly, which may occur over the next 5-10 years, local churches will have to get used to taking care of things themselves. However, I still don't see the workers ever giving up the power to allow or disbar someone from meeting and baptism....at least not in any foreseeable future.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2012 2:59:15 GMT -5
The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In an Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate. Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers. I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in. A good example of an Apostolic, Pastoral system that works would be the Catholic Church. Yes some will say they have CSA, they also have a pastoral facility to deal with it. This is largely how I've seen things for a while and it is how I interpret much that is in Acts of the Apostles etc, with the developing church. The Workers need not go out on a permanent basis. Suitable persons (as in other churches) could go out on a temporary basis. This would allow the potential for married, retired, unemployed, single people to partake in the outreach ministry. The roles of missionary and pastoral ministies need not be mutually exclisive, but allow for interchangability. CD's views on power control are bang on. Many people in power would rather relinquish their wealth, even family, rather than surrender power and control once they've had it. I reckon that was a major problem with William Irvine once the work went overseas. He tried to keep ultimate control over the whole thing and annoyed the overseers who had gained power and control in the new countries. Irvine, for a number of years sailed round and round the world checking on his new dominions. |
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Post by emy on Feb 16, 2012 20:16:44 GMT -5
The problem as I see it is what started out as an Apostolic ministry 100 years ago, because of the changing pressures of our society, has become a very poorly run Pastoral ministery. In an Apostolic ministry the only function for the workers would be to preach the gospel, and not be involved in day to day problems. In a Pastoral ministry the workers would become involved in the care of their flock. For proper pastoral care the ministers should not be itinerant, and also preferably not celibate. However for Apostolic ministers it is better to be itinerent and celibate. Unfortunately the 2x2 system is neither Apostolic or Pastoral, and that is why problems are occuring. There should be designated Apostolic workers, and designated Pastoral workers. I even think that the pastoral workers could be replaced with a committee of elders. This would be a more practical way to deal with day to day chores such as CSA, Finance, Marriage Counselling, etc. Changes need to be made to the structure of the organisation to match the times we live in. [/i] A good example of an Apostolic, Pastoral system that works would be the Catholic Church. Yes some will say they have CSA, they also have a pastoral facility to deal with it.[/quote] "Man's wisdom leads into a maze... "The CEO: Is this carried through perfectly? No because... oh well, I won't quote that old 'saw' again! |
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