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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 16:14:30 GMT -5
My apologies Spiders. For a moment I thought you were spinning a world wide web of deceipt? Do you know where I can get spearmint flavoured soap? That stuff tasted horrible! Ram old chap, you need some Kool aid to get the taste out:) oh Yeaahh!! I hear Ram goes to KAA (Kool Aidaholics Anonymous) and he has been clean for quite awhile.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 16:33:01 GMT -5
I really don't think there will ever be a worker or anyone else officially assigned as a CPO for the F&W. The group just isn't organized in a fashion to accommodate such an office that would be independent enough to function effectively. What will happen though is that there will be a grass roots effort from interested persons within the group that will become informed, trained and act as watch dogs. These will largely be parents and grandparents, since they have the most interest. Several problems that almost certainly will arise: 1) training will be somewhat pot-luck, not all from the same source material, thus something that is OK by the training of one person is not OK by the training of another. This will cause potential perps (for want of a term), workers or otherwise, to take the most conservative approach. Really they should anyway, and had they taken a thoughtful conservative approach all along there wouldn't be the problem today. 2) when it becomes known that crying CSA produces instant results there may be a few false alarms along the way, complete with police intrusion and investigation, perhaps the whole nine yards against an innocent worker or someone else. 3) whenever a case gets reported, whether a true infraction or a frivolous reporting, the friends in the greater area when they become aware, will divide into two camps, some on one side of the issue and others on the other side with only a few ambivalent. Knowing more than I care to know about the Alaska issue, after 20 years there are still hard feelings that haven't healed in all that time. 4) when someone having been reported, whether actually guilty or not, completes all official action, when that person attempts to re-integrate into the fellowship, this will cause more division and it is almost guaranteed that person will carry a sex offender label for life finding effective re-integration all but impossible. It is easy to cast blame on each and all of these issues. However when I mentally put myself into the shoes of each of the parties in all this, I very likely would have done as was done. Just because I post here attempting to see through all this, should a similar situation comes my way for real, I will likely react as others have reacted. Hopefully by making myself aware early on this will not overwhelm me. I think you have a pretty good handle on how it's going to go. While the adults fiddle, fuss, fight, and deny, the children are exposed. Children's issues must be child-centric, not adult-centric, worker-centric or any other -centric. I don't feel that the fellowship can be anything other then worker-centric for that is how the fellowship came into being and that was converting people to workership until they got so many they had to do something else with the overflow. Somehow the making of the second level just didn't get the importance that the worker level got and has retained and actually has increased in the 100 odd years of its' inception. The fellowship IS ABOUT the workers and almost nothing BUT the workers! This is so apparent when one is around even exworkers who have left the work but still retain a better identity within the fellowship esp. the workers then an every day friend, and the friends that are those who've dropped out and reprofessed seem to be the bottom of the barrel so to speak. The active workers all like to swarm to the exworkers' homes or I should say most of the active workers do that.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 16:37:26 GMT -5
Date rape is a common occurrance and it always comes down to the boy saying the girl asked for it with her flirting behaviour..turning him on. Or the woman saying she said No and the male denying it. Or, after the fact, the woman deciding that it was rape. Or both parties being too drunk to actually remember what happened but, out of guilt, saying they did not give consent. This is always tough because it is rarely the male that brings the complaint. Uhhh, rat! I think that is expected, the male wouldn't voice anything to start with! He might get pinned by the ears if he did!
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 16:41:12 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. As far as victims reporting directly to the appropriate agencies, just pretend for a moment that you are a 7 year old victim. What would you do? If it were me, I would look for someone I know and trust to help me through the process.....I certainly wouldn't be marching down to the police station on my own. I would also be wary of calling an 800 number and speaking to an unknown disembodied voice, although I think that would be an option to be considered for a desperate 7 year old. I wasn't pretending that a 7 year old would walk down to the police station. If kids and parents can be educated as to the process, and I believe they can, why not have the process avoid anyone in the church body? Avoid the rumor mill, etc referenced by Ronhall. Like ronhall, I don't see a separate position as something likely to happen with the f&w set up. If there is to be a gatekeeper, I'd rather have that be a universally accessible position for all abused children, not just those of our faith. After all, the child could be abused by someone outside of the faith and it would be nice to have only one reporting mechanism for all types of abuse. But then, I'm always looking to reduce things to the "simplest practical" approach and perhaps this doesn't yield itself to that approach. Seems to me a practical gatekeeper for all children's abuse issues would be a teacher, probably someone that works with the very young folks...simply because the younger the child when the incident occurs the more confused they are because they can't reason these things out.....seems like the younger the victim the more likely they begin to think somehow its' their fault even without the perp grooming them to think that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:23:38 GMT -5
Ram old chap, you need some Kool aid to get the taste out:) oh Yeaahh!! I hear Ram goes to KAA (Kool Aidaholics Anonymous) and he has been clean for quite awhile. Listen you guys, I've been called many things, but never "clean!" Why do you think the soap never agreed with me? The workers at KAA are still out looking for me. I'm the lost sheep that got away!
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Post by emy on Oct 19, 2010 17:42:20 GMT -5
You have got to remember that we are dealing with young children being abused who will be feeling hurt, confused, embarrassed etc. They will not be thinking rationally and certainly not likely to take themselves off down to the local police station and report what has happened to them. In most cases they will not even tell their parents for a whole range of reasons, including protecting the ministry. However if the church had a qualified Child Protection Officer with whom they were confident in approaching, this would enable the abused child to talk with someone who understands the situation in a less confronting manner that might be the case with the police and other authorities. The church would need to mandate the CPO with the responsibility of dealing with the abused child in the most appropriate manner, realising that they would report it to the authorities and not cover it up internally as has been the case over many years in Vic/Tas. The CPO will also have the experience and ability to recognise symptoms of abuse in a child and to approach them in a sensitive way, thus preventing further abuse from occuring. This would require a huge change in mindset for the F&W group, but one that is necessary if they are going to take CSA seriously. Wouldn't it be necessary to have a CPO for nearly every state, district or even meeting? I was kind of thnking the same thing. Our field is large geographically, but not so many people here in the boonies. So, let's say my husband is named CPO (he won't be). There are people in other parts of the field who barely know him by sight. I don't think it would be a stretch to say they would rather go to the police!! And yet, it would be rather strange to have a CPO for each part of the field, when there aren't that many people in the church who live here.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 17:54:12 GMT -5
Emy, once we know what is required, we can look at the way in which the friends and workers operate and tailor things accordingly. We simply take on board the standards that other churches are adopting (there is a general sameness across the western world) and see how best we can reasonably fit them into the system.
The fact the workers generally go out in pairs could be a great help along with many people who have meetings in their homes (read church premises). Others could fill good roles too.
We need the willingness first and foremost. After that I'm sure God will help us!
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 19, 2010 17:55:05 GMT -5
I actually discussed the most appropriate time to discuss issues with the church with a worker some time back. His thoughts were that Special Meetings were probably the most realistic. Pretty much everyone in that particular area attends, and also the local workers are usually all in attendance so you are addressing your 'home group'. Scott
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 18:02:30 GMT -5
I actually discussed the most appropriate time to discuss issues with the church with a worker some time back. His thoughts were that Special Meetings were probably the most realistic. Pretty much everyone in that particular area attends, and also the local workers are usually all in attendance so you are addressing your 'home group'. Scott But I suspect he was thinking that this would be taken care of during the "home visits" during the special mtgs. Which it does happen on issues that workers want the friends to take into consideration. But then it would have to be repeated for every home a spec. mtg. visit occurred and sometimes it is only visiting workers that visit a particular home....
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Post by spiders on Oct 19, 2010 20:45:01 GMT -5
I actually discussed the most appropriate time to discuss issues with the church with a worker some time back. His thoughts were that Special Meetings were probably the most realistic. Pretty much everyone in that particular area attends, and also the local workers are usually all in attendance so you are addressing your 'home group'. Scott I have never been in a Special Mtg where any "issues" were discussed with the church. Just the same old format year after year......not even a welcoming greeting I guess conv. would be another time to discuss "issues"........I can just see the overseer getting up and apologizing for the the incidents of CSA and outlining ways in which it will be prevented from happening in the future! Whoops!! I had better stop dreaming ;D
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 21:51:25 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. But many of the publications touted by ram give the CPO that exact task. They are to evaluate the claim. In most cases involving a 7 year old there will be an adult or guardian involved. Think it through. A trusted member of the church has been abusing you. The option, because you have been taught about the process, is to report it directly to the authorities (in person, via a 800 number, or filling out a claim form) or going to yet another 'trusted' church member, who may well know and associate with the abused. Hopefully it would have been stressed that there are 800 numbers specifically for children to call.
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 21:54:38 GMT -5
After that I'm sure God will help us! Experience has shown that god is not a solution for child abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 2:46:37 GMT -5
After that I'm sure God will help us! Experience has shown that god is not a solution for child abuse. Well I'm not so sure the churches will agree with you rational? After all their Child Protection policies do tell us our Christian responsibilities towards our children and child protection. If we take their advice seriously it can certainly go a long way towards reducing child abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 3:05:51 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. But many of the publications touted by ram give the CPO that exact task. They are to evaluate the claim.
Rational, I think you're reading far too much into the documents with the evaluation process. Any hint of abuse and it WILL be reported forthwith. After all the clear advice is NOT to investigate!
You haven't forgotten that these procedures are based on Government guidelines, fully supported by the police, social services, child protection organisations, etc.? The churches nowadays want to follow the best advice and the procedures they are now adopting clearly shows they are following the best advice given by these bodies.
Remember, these churches need insurance cover and they wont get it unless they have the necessary "approved" child protection policies in place. The CCPAS offers an approved registration facility where churches can have their policies approved and registered. More and more churches are using this. It helps them in many ways, including insurance purposes. Also, the scheme is approved by the Metropolitan Police and therefore ALL other police forces in the UK and no doubt further afield.
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Post by spiders on Oct 20, 2010 4:06:55 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. But many of the publications touted by ram give the CPO that exact task. They are to evaluate the claim. Rational, I think you're reading far too much into the documents with the evaluation process. Any hint of abuse and it WILL be reported forthwith. After all the clear advice is NOT to investigate! You haven't forgotten that these procedures are based on Government guidelines, fully supported by the police, social services, child protection organisations, etc.? The churches nowadays want to follow the best advice and the procedures they are now adopting clearly shows they are following the best advice given by these bodies. Remember, these churches need insurance cover and they wont get it unless they have the necessary "approved" child protection policies in place. The CCPAS offers an approved registration facility where churches can have their policies approved and registered. More and more churches are using this. It helps them in many ways, including insurance purposes. Also, the scheme is approved by the Metropolitan Police and therefore ALL other police forces in the UK and no doubt further afield. How do the F&W church get around not having a child protection policy when hiring halls etc? Presumably the owners of halls require insurance policies. Maybe they don't let on that they are a church? If this is the case then they are misrepresenting the reason for wanting a hall
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 4:19:09 GMT -5
Spiders, it was just a thought that I had. I know our local authority will not let out halls to certain groups who do not have adequate insurance cover. If they did, then they themselves (via their own insurance companies) can become liable for any claims which may result. It is likely a stipulation on their "own" insuirance policies that such groups have their own insurance cover. That then protects the Local Authority's insurers from accepting liability for those hiring the premises. There may or may not be statutory obligations. However, you can see where the world is going with things and it is very risky to keep flying below the radar.
Maybe "Gospel Missions" do not fit the criteria?
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Post by cat girl on Oct 20, 2010 4:27:15 GMT -5
All this talk of having a CPO is wonderful but will never happen because the"workers know best". I am trained in CSA and a Qualified Child care worker(pardon the pun!)I have never known of a small child under the age of 10 to talk to police or anyone. This is because the Abuser grooms them to "keep our little secret", don't tell, it is our special time etc". The child feels special and it is not until they are older and are able to realise the disgusting and invasive aspect of the abuse.(Sometimes not until adulthood. )The better way is to train them and their parents in recognising abuse, being confident enough to say"stop I don't like it", empowering the child to keep their personal space secure and safe and developing a trust with a teacher or carer, in case it is the parent abusing.I would love to be able to distribute all the resources availbale free on the Child Wise site, to all families within the truth.Maybe I should ??!
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 6:55:10 GMT -5
I hear Ram goes to KAA (Kool Aidaholics Anonymous) and he has been clean for quite awhile. Listen you guys, I've been called many things, but never "clean!" Why do you think the soap never agreed with me? The workers at KAA are still out looking for me. I'm the lost sheep that got away! Wellm, they're not looking in the right place for perhaps they're not frequenting that place and that is you're in between a rock and a hard place at the CSA school.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2010 6:59:17 GMT -5
All this talk of having a CPO is wonderful but will never happen because the"workers know best". I am trained in CSA and a Qualified Child care worker(pardon the pun!)I have never known of a small child under the age of 10 to talk to police or anyone. This is because the Abuser grooms them to "keep our little secret", don't tell, it is our special time etc". The child feels special and it is not until they are older and are able to realise the disgusting and invasive aspect of the abuse.(Sometimes not until adulthood. )The better way is to train them and their parents in recognising abuse, being confident enough to say"stop I don't like it", empowering the child to keep their personal space secure and safe and developing a trust with a teacher or carer, in case it is the parent abusing.I would love to be able to distribute all the resources availbale free on the Child Wise site, to all families within the truth.Maybe I should ??! Hey cubby, keep posting.....your input is very helpful.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 7:00:56 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. But many of the publications touted by ram give the CPO that exact task. They are to evaluate the claim. In most cases involving a 7 year old there will be an adult or guardian involved. Think it through. A trusted member of the church has been abusing you. The option, because you have been taught about the process, is to report it directly to the authorities (in person, via a 800 number, or filling out a claim form) or going to yet another 'trusted' church member, who may well know and associate with the abused. Hopefully it would have been stressed that there are 800 numbers specifically for children to call. Rat, brings up a vital point in that when a trusted member of the fellowship has abused a child...that child will likely be leery of other members because the child got burned by trusting said member. I think a child old enough to know there are numbers to call, would be more apt to call a 1-800 number because they don't know that person or that person's persuasion in life or association outside of being a designated person to call. I still say most children from kindergarten up would be more apt to discuss something like this with a teacher or school personnel they feel comfortable with. And even babysitters could be a first line contact for the very young ones.....IF children are taught from as soon as possible in their youth what is right and what is not right touching, things talked about....then when they start babysitting the younger children, they'll know when one of their clients has been abused by that child's behaviour.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 7:03:46 GMT -5
Experience has shown that god is not a solution for child abuse. Well I'm not so sure the churches will agree with you rational? After all their Child Protection policies do tell us our Christian responsibilities towards our children and child protection. If we take their advice seriously it can certainly go a long way towards reducing child abuse. If all churches stressed our stewardship while on earth, then I think a majority of people from said churches would know their responsibilities towards children and child protection...but DO all churches stress this stewardship? Not many in the fellowship have done so.... I got that stewardship from the Adam and Eve story, myself....knowing God has given us so much and knowing God had asked Adam to care for it all...just seems to be reasonable to expect all mankind be good stewards and yes, I know, they aren't.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 7:07:51 GMT -5
Spiders, it was just a thought that I had. I know our local authority will not let out halls to certain groups who do not have adequate insurance cover. If they did, then they themselves (via their own insurance companies) can become liable for any claims which may result. It is likely a stipulation on their "own" insuirance policies that such groups have their own insurance cover. That then protects the Local Authority's insurers from accepting liability for those hiring the premises. There may or may not be statutory obligations. However, you can see where the world is going with things and it is very risky to keep flying below the radar. Maybe "Gospel Missions" do not fit the criteria? At times in this area, the workers have obtained classrooms at the local university free of charge....I think there is a clause in their insurance that this is "charity" and does not come under insurance claims...otherwords anyone getting hurt during those gospel or special mtgs. will naturally be responsible for their own expenses.....The local Catholic monastery also lets the workers/friends use rooms within their monastery, and usually in their school areas. All of this is "charity" and is not covered by any insurance...
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 7:10:49 GMT -5
All this talk of having a CPO is wonderful but will never happen because the"workers know best". I am trained in CSA and a Qualified Child care worker(pardon the pun!)I have never known of a small child under the age of 10 to talk to police or anyone. This is because the Abuser grooms them to "keep our little secret", don't tell, it is our special time etc". The child feels special and it is not until they are older and are able to realise the disgusting and invasive aspect of the abuse.(Sometimes not until adulthood. )The better way is to train them and their parents in recognising abuse, being confident enough to say"stop I don't like it", empowering the child to keep their personal space secure and safe and developing a trust with a teacher or carer, in case it is the parent abusing.I would love to be able to distribute all the resources availbale free on the Child Wise site, to all families within the truth.Maybe I should ??! Yes, but even teaching children to tell someone to "stop, I don't like it" is kind of strange after having said children like the attention....so the children won't know to say "I don't like it" if they're looking for the attention. Doesn't it come under a better reasoning to tell the child what or where it is okay to be touched or not touched?
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Post by sharonw on Oct 20, 2010 7:12:26 GMT -5
After that I'm sure God will help us! Experience has shown that god is not a solution for child abuse. Rational, maybe it seems like God is being absent when a child is abused....but then we have to believe that somewhere down the line in life OR in the judgment day that those who do the abusing WILL have to answer to that behaviour! And most likely for all of eternity....something no one would want to have to do.l
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Post by cat girl on Oct 21, 2010 5:02:12 GMT -5
Quite right Sharonw, we also teach children to respect their own bodies, keep a safe space just for themselves. Abusers make that really confusing when they groom children using lollies etc. A large part of training parents and children is "to keep your body safe, and respect other people."
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 21, 2010 6:17:24 GMT -5
cubby - is this the website you're talking about? www.childwise.net/All this talk of having a CPO is wonderful but will never happen because the"workers know best". I am trained in CSA and a Qualified Child care worker(pardon the pun!)I have never known of a small child under the age of 10 to talk to police or anyone. This is because the Abuser grooms them to "keep our little secret", don't tell, it is our special time etc". The child feels special and it is not until they are older and are able to realise the disgusting and invasive aspect of the abuse.(Sometimes not until adulthood. )The better way is to train them and their parents in recognising abuse, being confident enough to say"stop I don't like it", empowering the child to keep their personal space secure and safe and developing a trust with a teacher or carer, in case it is the parent abusing.I would love to be able to distribute all the resources available free on the Child Wise site, to all families within the truth.Maybe I should ??!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2010 7:04:07 GMT -5
Child Wise is a great site because there is so much material available right there online.
An interesting quote that surprised me a bit:
"The response from parents revealed that 65% believed that their child would tell them something was wrong at the program/activity and 45% said they would know by their child’s behaviour if something was wrong.
In the children’s survey only 18% said they would tell their parents if they were upset or scared at the program/activity. The majority said they would tell their teacher/coach at the time if they were upset or scared."
It's a bit difficult to understand the thought process of a child who would tell a teacher/coach of problems but not parents. However, as cubby points out, no one under 10 is ever likely to report to police and is even quite unlikely to report to parents.
To eliminate CSA, there has to be a child-centered focus on their protection by all good people around those children. Children will, apparently, report to a trusted adult well before reporting to parents which means all adults should be involved in Child Protection. Without someone in the church field filling the role of a CPO, nothing will change.
The huge cultural shift that has to occur is a shift away from being a worker-focused, meeting-focused group. The shift has to become more focused to the needy, the small, the weak, the seeking.......which is what we are talking about when we say we need to be more "Christ-focused".
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Post by sharonw on Oct 21, 2010 7:11:50 GMT -5
All this talk of having a CPO is wonderful but will never happen because the"workers know best". I am trained in CSA and a Qualified Child care worker(pardon the pun!)I have never known of a small child under the age of 10 to talk to police or anyone. This is because the Abuser grooms them to "keep our little secret", don't tell, it is our special time etc". The child feels special and it is not until they are older and are able to realise the disgusting and invasive aspect of the abuse.(Sometimes not until adulthood. )The better way is to train them and their parents in recognising abuse, being confident enough to say"stop I don't like it", empowering the child to keep their personal space secure and safe and developing a trust with a teacher or carer, in case it is the parent abusing. I would love to be able to distribute all the resources availbale free on the Child Wise site, to all families within the truth.Maybe I should ??![/quote] I think dispersing such resources with the friends is a great idea...however, since CSA is a really hot topic amongst the workers in power, you might face some of them taking that adversely and they could come down on you like they did the father in CO. who was trying to give out flyers about IH's and him being present at the convs. there!
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