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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 7:03:03 GMT -5
Spiders me lad, you're not suggesting by any chance that the worldly churches are developing a unity the whole world over ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 7:06:00 GMT -5
Child consults CPO because child already knows CPO will know what to do. Child tells parent or sibling, parent or sibling consults CPO for how to proceed. Child tells elder of meeting who consults CPO for how to proceed. Child tells worker who consults CPO for how to proceed. Child tells..........and so on. With a CPO, you can be more confident that things will proceed properly, with the needs of the victim paramount and the alleged offended being treated properly too. Expecting a child to go directly to the authorities is not reasonable although that is to be encouraged too. The important thing is that the knowledge resource is right at hand, and that it will be a child-centered approach. Preschool children really have a limited source and way and that usually would be their mother, sometimes their father UNLESS they were especially close to a grandparent. School age children could and some would apt to tell their teacher or school counselor. I think that a majority of child molestations ARE discovered by teachers simply because they are quick to see abnormal behaviour on the child. Exactly Shaz. Five stars to you. Similarly, in a church environment the child protection co-ordinator acts along with other adults in the church as the early warning radar! |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 7:08:27 GMT -5
The church would need to mandate the CPO with the responsibility of dealing with the abused child in the most appropriate manner, realising that they would report it to the authorities and not cover it up internally as has been the case over many years in Vic/Tas. This is a huge paradigm shift because the church currently mandates the ministry for practically everything. That's why the friends feel so betrayed - the ones who the friends have been taught to trust without question have proven unworthy of that trust. The typical attitude of workers is that when it comes to authority, "the church" is the ministry. So if a CPO is mandated by "the church" it will be the ministry that does the mandating. And the ministry can't even own up to its own history, let alone own up to CSA and immorality within its ranks. With God's help these challenges can be resolved but a band aid approach will not work. This is serious stuff folks, and it won't happen without a major paradigm shift. Well, it seems so far that the workers who seek to even do what is right with CSA is few and far between...so it would seem that the workers are not caring if the fellowship goes belly up or not. To me that is weird or maybe it's indicative of something else? It's hard for me to understand why a larger majority of workers are not stepping up to the line, facing the truth about the truth's fellowship....the big question is "Why?" People are exiting the fellowship right and left and there doesn't seem to be any push to even stop that leak in the d**e....no efforts to try and understand why people ARE exiting. The answer that has been given to me is this: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition The f&w's think this is why people are exiting right and left....it seems to comfort them to be assured in their belief that they're the only ones that will be saved! |
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Post by spiders on Oct 19, 2010 7:09:06 GMT -5
Spiders me lad, you're not suggesting by any chance that the worldly churches are developing a unity the whole world over ? Shock horror ram, wash your mouth out man.....the F&W are the only true church and they know what is best!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 7:12:46 GMT -5
My apologies Spiders. For a moment I thought you were spinning a world wide web of deceipt?
Do you know where I can get spearmint flavoured soap? That stuff tasted horrible!
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 7:13:14 GMT -5
Exactly Clearday...thanks  Operating in this way is foreign to the F&W who don't have any organisational structure. I realise it is going to take a huge change of mindset and changes to the system before something like this could work. However with commitment from those at the top and properly resourced it can be done. Positive action is required....the future of our children is paramount. There has to be zero tolerance on child abuse. It would be a lot like the designated bible and hymn book seller in the field. I don't know if these persons still exist in each field but it was once quite common. There would a be designated person who would inventory some bibles and hymnbooks plus have access to special orders. This person had to be trained in what was available, able to carry the cost of inventory,and be trustworthy with money. The CPO system could be very similar so it isn't without precedence in the fellowship. There would be little more involved than with the hymnbook seller. The CPO would need to have some good personal characteristics, some complex training, and should be communicative enough to go around to the parents in each field and explain their role, even give the parents information and resources....and generally just raise awareness of the issue. The CPO could be a great resource for not only dealing with offenses, but more importantly, for prevention by raising awareness and knowledge levels. They could be a resource not just for in-church offenses, but for prevention and offenses which occur in school or elsewhere. I just thought of a possible candidate for CPO for each state and it could be someone who is not really able for the extreme duties of a regular worker, but would perhaps have been in the work....the travelling would not be as much as a worker most likely or it would likely come in spurts, etc. I think a yearly or bi-annually visit to each church would be helpful, just to kind of keep up with who is who in each church. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 7:22:51 GMT -5
This is a huge paradigm shift because the church currently mandates the ministry for practically everything. That's why the friends feel so betrayed - the ones who the friends have been taught to trust without question have proven unworthy of that trust. The typical attitude of workers is that when it comes to authority, "the church" is the ministry. So if a CPO is mandated by "the church" it will be the ministry that does the mandating. And the ministry can't even own up to its own history, let alone own up to CSA and immorality within its ranks. With God's help these challenges can be resolved but a band aid approach will not work. This is serious stuff folks, and it won't happen without a major paradigm shift. Well, it seems so far that the workers who seek to even do what is right with CSA is few and far between...so it would seem that the workers are not caring if the fellowship goes belly up or not. To me that is weird or maybe it's indicative of something else? It's hard for me to understand why a larger majority of workers are not stepping up to the line, facing the truth about the truth's fellowship....the big question is "Why?" People are exiting the fellowship right and left and there doesn't seem to be any push to even stop that leak in the d**e....no efforts to try and understand why people ARE exiting. The answer that has been given to me is this: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition The f&w's think this is why people are exiting right and left....it seems to comfort them to be assured in their belief that they're the only ones that will be saved! I think the reason why there is little traction to do the right thing is not because of bad people, but good people who are in denial of the truth. Rational's poll bears this out that even on a free site like this, a lot of people still think that this issue is insignificant and unworthy to deal with. The other part that makes this issue difficult to get traction is ignorance of the damages done. I think there has been some improvement in this regard but there are still lots of people who think "just get over it, you weren't beat up." Some workers may go so far to even think ".....and he/she is complaining about the thing I want and am denied?" I've been there. Many years ago when someone revealed to me she had been date raped, I felt somewhat ambivalent. I truly couldn't see the extent of the problem. I feel terrible today that I was so callous at the time but won't make that mistake again. |
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Post by sharonw on Oct 19, 2010 7:31:24 GMT -5
Well, it seems so far that the workers who seek to even do what is right with CSA is few and far between...so it would seem that the workers are not caring if the fellowship goes belly up or not. To me that is weird or maybe it's indicative of something else? It's hard for me to understand why a larger majority of workers are not stepping up to the line, facing the truth about the truth's fellowship....the big question is "Why?" People are exiting the fellowship right and left and there doesn't seem to be any push to even stop that leak in the d**e....no efforts to try and understand why people ARE exiting. The answer that has been given to me is this: 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition The f&w's think this is why people are exiting right and left....it seems to comfort them to be assured in their belief that they're the only ones that will be saved! I think the reason why there is little traction to do the right thing is not because of bad people, but good people who are in denial of the truth. Rational's poll bears this out that even on a free site like this, a lot of people still think that this issue is insignificant and unworthy to deal with. The other part that makes this issue difficult to get traction is ignorance of the damages done. I think there has been some improvement in this regard but there are still lots of people who think "just get over it, you weren't beat up." Some workers may go so far to even think ".....and he/she is complaining about the thing I want and am denied?" I've been there. Many years ago when someone revealed to me she had been date raped, I felt somewhat ambivalent. I truly couldn't see the extent of the problem. I feel terrible today that I was so callous at the time but won't make that mistake again. Date rape is a common occurrance and it always comes down to the boy saying the girl asked for it with her flirting behaviour..turning him on. And it is true that rape or sexual assault from anyone is very damaging and most the time the victims just don't want to go through the hazzle of reporting it. Used to the police would even make the female look like she asked for it...they weren't very sympathic either. The one thing that does happen with suppression of the event and all that it brings is an indwelling negative feeling about similar incidents with other victims....each case that becomes known to the victim just magnifies what is felt all over again. Often it is hard to channel that negative energy into something positive...and NO, you just don't get over it, it stays with you for life. Sometimes with help the burden is lightened esp. when the victim feels validated. |
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Post by ronhall on Oct 19, 2010 9:20:46 GMT -5
I really don't think there will ever be a worker or anyone else officially assigned as a CPO for the F&W. The group just isn't organized in a fashion to accommodate such an office that would be independent enough to function effectively.
What will happen though is that there will be a grass roots effort from interested persons within the group that will become informed, trained and act as watch dogs. These will largely be parents and grandparents, since they have the most interest.
Several problems that almost certainly will arise:
1) training will be somewhat pot-luck, not all from the same source material, thus something that is OK by the training of one person is not OK by the training of another. This will cause potential perps (for want of a term), workers or otherwise, to take the most conservative approach. Really they should anyway, and had they taken a thoughtful conservative approach all along there wouldn't be the problem today.
2) when it becomes known that crying CSA produces instant results there may be a few false alarms along the way, complete with police intrusion and investigation, perhaps the whole nine yards against an innocent worker or someone else.
3) whenever a case gets reported, whether a true infraction or a frivolous reporting, the friends in the greater area when they become aware, will divide into two camps, some on one side of the issue and others on the other side with only a few ambivalent. Knowing more than I care to know about the Alaska issue, after 20 years there are still hard feelings that haven't healed in all that time.
4) when someone having been reported, whether actually guilty or not, completes all official action, when that person attempts to re-integrate into the fellowship, this will cause more division and it is almost guaranteed that person will carry a sex offender label for life finding effective re-integration all but impossible.
It is easy to cast blame on each and all of these issues. However when I mentally put myself into the shoes of each of the parties in all this, I very likely would have done as was done. Just because I post here attempting to see through all this, should a similar situation comes my way
for real, I will likely react as others have reacted. Hopefully by making myself aware early on this will not overwhelm me.
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 9:31:28 GMT -5
Not to be outdone by the Catholics, here is the Church of England's Child Protection policy. Of course the Catholics can rightly take some credit since the CoE broke away from them during a bout of domestic abuse (Henry VIII). In reading the document expect to have your Christian conscience pricked with regards to child protection responsibilities. www.peterborough-diocese.org.uk/downloads/childprotectionpolicy.pdfLooks good! inform the person in the parish or diocese who is responsible for child protection;
make a referral to the social services department seeking advice about who else should be told, for example the parents;Inform the designated person and report directly to the authorities. Sounds like a good plan. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 9:34:17 GMT -5
Not to be outdone by the Catholics, here is the Church of England's Child Protection policy. Of course the Catholics can rightly take some credit since the CoE broke away from them during a bout of domestic abuse (Henry VIII). In reading the document expect to have your Christian conscience pricked with regards to child protection responsibilities. www.peterborough-diocese.org.uk/downloads/childprotectionpolicy.pdfLooks good! inform the person in the parish or diocese who is responsible for child protection;
make a referral to the social services department seeking advice about who else should be told, for example the parents;Inform the designated person and report directly to the authorities. Sounds like a good plan. Welcome to the gang rational. I'm pleased you can join us. That's how we've all been seeing it. Best wishes |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 9:40:29 GMT -5
Glad to have you on the train rational.
The CPO job is a conduit to accommodate the reporting process, not a decision maker to block it. Plus, the CPO is a whole lot more, particularly on providing information for preventive measures.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 9:44:24 GMT -5
I really don't think there will ever be a worker or anyone else officially assigned as a CPO for the F&W. The group just isn't organized in a fashion to accommodate such an office that would be independent enough to function effectively. What will happen though is that there will be a grass roots effort from interested persons within the group that will become informed, trained and act as watch dogs. These will largely be parents and grandparents, since they have the most interest. Several problems that almost certainly will arise: 1) training will be somewhat pot-luck, not all from the same source material, thus something that is OK by the training of one person is not OK by the training of another. This will cause potential perps (for want of a term), workers or otherwise, to take the most conservative approach. Really they should anyway, and had they taken a thoughtful conservative approach all along there wouldn't be the problem today. 2) when it becomes known that crying CSA produces instant results there may be a few false alarms along the way, complete with police intrusion and investigation, perhaps the whole nine yards against an innocent worker or someone else. 3) whenever a case gets reported, whether a true infraction or a frivolous reporting, the friends in the greater area when they become aware, will divide into two camps, some on one side of the issue and others on the other side with only a few ambivalent. Knowing more than I care to know about the Alaska issue, after 20 years there are still hard feelings that haven't healed in all that time. 4) when someone having been reported, whether actually guilty or not, completes all official action, when that person attempts to re-integrate into the fellowship, this will cause more division and it is almost guaranteed that person will carry a sex offender label for life finding effective re-integration all but impossible. It is easy to cast blame on each and all of these issues. However when I mentally put myself into the shoes of each of the parties in all this, I very likely would have done as was done. Just because I post here attempting to see through all this, should a similar situation comes my way for real, I will likely react as others have reacted. Hopefully by making myself aware early on this will not overwhelm me. I think you have a pretty good handle on how it's going to go. While the adults fiddle, fuss, fight, and deny, the children are exposed. Children's issues must be child-centric, not adult-centric, worker-centric or any other -centric. |
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 9:44:37 GMT -5
And even the good old Texan Bappies have similar guidelines to the Brits! And that's even with a law of mandatory reporting of CSA to the authorities by the person who discovers it! There is clergy privilege though for these persons. They are allowed to discuss the matter with their pastor before notifying the authorities. It is an accepted practice written into the guidelines. images.acswebnetworks.com/1/41/ChildProtectionPolicies.pdfTheir directions are a bit confusing. Section 29 states: Reporting obligationAny person having cause to believe that a child’s physical or mental health or welfare has been or may be adversely affected by abuse or neglect must report the person’s belief. Non-accusatory reports, that identify the victim whether or not the person responsible for the abuse is known, must be made to the local or state law enforcement agency or to the Texas Department of Human Services as follows:
A. An oral report must be made immediately on learning of the abuse or neglect.
B. Notify the pastor as quickly as possible.
C. A written report must be made within five (5) days to the same agency.
D. All reports must contain the name and address of the child, the name and address of the person responsible for the care of the child and any other pertinent information.
The oral and written reports are required by law. This entire reporting policy is required as a condition of employment for both paid and volunteer workers.It is followed by a procedure that suggests reporting to the pastor or church first. I am guessing they copied the TX law first and then added the part about reporting to the church. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 9:45:21 GMT -5
Perhaps rational will now agree that the F&W's group should fall in line with other religious groups and formulate a proper Child Protection policy, hopefully with the professional guidance of a group like the CCPAS, which would be drawn up to Government standards?
That way personal agendas and opinions could be minimised, if not discarded.
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 9:55:02 GMT -5
Well, this one still has the church as the gatekeeper. Retaining control and still having a policy in place which is a good thing from the church's point of view. All of this is moving in the right direction. |
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 9:56:53 GMT -5
Perhaps rational will now agree that the F&W's group should fall in line with other religious groups and formulate a proper Child Protection policy, hopefully with the professional guidance of a group like the CCPAS, which would be drawn up to Government standards? That way personal agendas and opinions could be minimised, if not discarded. I have always felt that a plan should be developed. I disagree that the gatekeeper should be a church member. |
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 9:58:43 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be necessary to have a CPO for nearly every state, district or even meeting? Yes, unless the reporting is done as recommended by the police - by the victim/guardians. |
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Post by rational on Oct 19, 2010 10:05:15 GMT -5
Date rape is a common occurrance and it always comes down to the boy saying the girl asked for it with her flirting behaviour..turning him on. Or the woman saying she said No and the male denying it. Or, after the fact, the woman deciding that it was rape. Or both parties being too drunk to actually remember what happened but, out of guilt, saying they did not give consent. This is always tough because it is rarely the male that brings the complaint. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:12:56 GMT -5
Well, this one still has the church as the gatekeeper. Retaining control and still having a policy in place which is a good thing from the church's point of view. All of this is moving in the right direction. Definitely, there should not be a church rule which says "thou shalt first report all alleged offenses to the pastor, CPO, or any other church official". Reporting directly and quickly of any offense to authorities has to be the preferred method. Child to parent(if the parent isn't the alleged offended) to authorities should be the most common direction. Child to authorities is good too, but only likely to happen with older victims. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:13:04 GMT -5
I disagree that the gatekeeper should be a church member. I too would prefer that the gatekeeper not be a church member. I'd like a process, but I'm not so sure about creating a third party. Why isn't having the victim/concerned party reporting directly to the agencies tasked with handling these things sufficient? That avoids any third-party tinkering with the process. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:17:58 GMT -5
I disagree that the gatekeeper should be a church member. I too would prefer that the gatekeeper not be a church member. I'd like a process, but I'm not so sure about creating a third party. Why isn't having the victim/concerned party reporting directly to the agencies tasked with handling these things sufficient? That avoids any third-party tinkering with the process. The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. As far as victims reporting directly to the appropriate agencies, just pretend for a moment that you are a 7 year old victim. What would you do? If it were me, I would look for someone I know and trust to help me through the process.....I certainly wouldn't be marching down to the police station on my own. I would also be wary of calling an 800 number and speaking to an unknown disembodied voice, although I think that would be an option to be considered for a desperate 7 year old. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:35:31 GMT -5
I too would prefer that the gatekeeper not be a church member. I'd like a process, but I'm not so sure about creating a third party. Why isn't having the victim/concerned party reporting directly to the agencies tasked with handling these things sufficient? That avoids any third-party tinkering with the process. The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. As far as victims reporting directly to the appropriate agencies, just pretend for a moment that you are a 7 year old victim. What would you do? If it were me, I would look for someone I know and trust to help me through the process.....I certainly wouldn't be marching down to the police station on my own. I would also be wary of calling an 800 number and speaking to an unknown disembodied voice, although I think that would be an option to be considered for a desperate 7 year old. I wasn't pretending that a 7 year old would walk down to the police station. If kids and parents can be educated as to the process, and I believe they can, why not have the process avoid anyone in the church body? Avoid the rumor mill, etc referenced by Ronhall. Like ronhall, I don't see a separate position as something likely to happen with the f&w set up. If there is to be a gatekeeper, I'd rather have that be a universally accessible position for all abused children, not just those of our faith. After all, the child could be abused by someone outside of the faith and it would be nice to have only one reporting mechanism for all types of abuse. But then, I'm always looking to reduce things to the "simplest practical" approach and perhaps this doesn't yield itself to that approach. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:44:00 GMT -5
The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker. As far as victims reporting directly to the appropriate agencies, just pretend for a moment that you are a 7 year old victim. What would you do? If it were me, I would look for someone I know and trust to help me through the process.....I certainly wouldn't be marching down to the police station on my own. I would also be wary of calling an 800 number and speaking to an unknown disembodied voice, although I think that would be an option to be considered for a desperate 7 year old. I wasn't pretending that a 7 year old would walk down to the police station. If kids and parents can be educated as to the process, and I believe they can, why not have the process avoid anyone in the church body? Avoid the rumor mill, etc referenced by Ronhall. Like ronhall, I don't see a separate position as something likely to happen with the f&w set up. If there is to be a gatekeeper, I'd rather have that be a universally accessible position for all abused children, not just those of our faith. After all, the child could be abused by someone outside of the faith and it would be nice to have only one reporting mechanism for all types of abuse. But then, I'm always looking to reduce things to the "simplest practical" approach and perhaps this doesn't yield itself to that approach. It's a Catch -22. Educating the parents is very important, but if you don't have an educator, it won't get done. I would think that having one or more trained friends in a field is not particularly complicated. Then, that trained friend can work with parents so that there will be very little need for a CPO to be reported to. A good CPO will work to put him/herself out of a job by training and providing information. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 10:49:51 GMT -5
Hi hb, my view is that we should look at other churches' methods. Draw up a policy based on these methods and requirements, legal, moral, social and spiritual, etc. Once we have agreed on what is required we look at tailoring it for the F&W's system, using what resources there are.
I believe getting the minimum requirements right to start with is the best way to begin things, then look at how best the F&W's church can accomodate the policy. Much of it could be quite simple, because the system is simple. However, some robust measures would have to be considered to make the simplicity effective.
I don't have any great ideas at the moment, but no one would expect the sect to take any unreasonable measures. The guiding line would be to accomodate the policy by keeping the focus on protecting children and vulnerable persons using all reasonable measures to do so. If we couldn't agree on what was "reasonable" then professional guidance could be sought.
The wailing has to stop and the willing has to begin.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 11:42:00 GMT -5
Just a thought that occurred to me following my discussions with a child protection charity a week or so ago. I was told that parents are being encouraged to ask youth groups, nurseries, churches, community centres etc, if they have child protection policies in place BEFORE they commit their children to them. Not only that they are advised to discuss these measures and ask for sight of the documents, to ensure such policies are in place for their own peace of mind.
Imagine a mother and father taking their three young children along to a gospel mission. They like what they hear and are drawn to the sect. Then they ask the workers if they have a child protection policy in force?
Do they get told to keep coming to the mission, it will all be explained there?
Another thought worth looking into. Those who hire out church halls may have a statutory obligation to ensure that those churches, youth groups etc, to whom they let out to the premises to, have the necessary policies in force, as well as proper insurance cover (which they wont get if they don't have a proper CP policy).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 12:35:24 GMT -5
CD and Ram,
You both make good points. Just the process of creating an effective policy would be a good reality check for all involved. I'm absolutely not okay with any form of "covering up" and I'm glad the pressure is on to change direction.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 19, 2010 14:01:46 GMT -5
My apologies Spiders. For a moment I thought you were spinning a world wide web of deceipt? Do you know where I can get spearmint flavoured soap? That stuff tasted horrible! Ram old chap, you need some Kool aid to get the taste out:) oh Yeaahh!! |
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