Vic/Tas requests help from senior workers

[ts]

Oct 21, 2010 7:04:07 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Child Wise is a great site because there is so much material available right there online.


An interesting quote that surprised me a bit:

"The response from parents revealed that 65% believed that their
child would tell them something was wrong at the program/activity
and 45% said they would know by their child’s behaviour if something was wrong.

In the children’s survey only 18% said they would tell their parents
if they were upset or scared at the program/activity. The majority
said they would tell their teacher/coach at the time if they were
upset or scared."


It's a bit difficult to understand the thought process of a child who would tell a teacher/coach of problems but not parents. However, as cubby points out, no one under 10 is ever likely to report to police and is even quite unlikely to report to parents.

To eliminate CSA, there has to be a child-centered focus on their protection by all good people around those children. Children will, apparently, report to a trusted adult well before reporting to parents which means all adults should be involved in Child Protection. Without someone in the church field filling the role of a CPO, nothing will change.

The huge cultural shift that has to occur is a shift away from being a worker-focused, meeting-focused group. The shift has to become more focused to the needy, the small, the weak, the seeking.......which is what we are talking about when we say we need to be more "Christ-focused".

I agree with the cultural shift. The man is the priest of the home, not the workers. Many workers will tell parents how to raise their children. That is hard for some parents to handle. When there are parents who are willing to give over their authority, there will be a worker ready to take it. It often takes training to know how not to give over your authority and also takes training to know who not to take authority. This sort of training is lacking in the work and meetings.
The scenario goes like this: A person is told that the worker is a servant of God and feels the expectation to give over authority to the workers. The person gets burned and says something. Then they are told that they are guilty for giving over their authority.
That is very confusing. Proper training in boundaries and self confidence is necessary. Implementing that sort of training in the meeting environment would indeed take a major cultural shift.

[rational]

Oct 20, 2010 2:46:37 GMT -5 @ram said:

Oct 19, 2010 21:54:38 GMT -5 rational said:

Experience has shown that god is not a solution for child abuse.

Well I'm not so sure the churches will agree with you rational? After all their Child Protection policies do tell us our Christian responsibilities towards our children and child protection.

They are not christian responsibilities. They are human responsibilities.

If we take their advice seriously it can certainly go a long way towards reducing child abuse.

Sure, if we can get people acting responsibly towards each other and looking out for their neighbor there are great possibilities.
Now how, exactly, does god enter into that solution?
I wonder if god is a mandated reporter? God would be a great person to be the judge, jury , and executioner since, after all, god is all knowing.

But there is the question of his/her knowing about these events and not only failing to report them but tacitly condoning them.

[rational]

Oct 20, 2010 3:05:51 GMT -5 @ram said:

The CPO should never be a gatekeeper, but an accommodator of the reporting process. A helper of the process, not a decision maker.

But many of the publications touted by ram give the CPO that exact task. They are to evaluate the claim.
Rational, I think you're reading far too much into the documents with the evaluation process. Any hint of abuse and it WILL be reported forthwith. After all the clear advice is NOT to investigate!

Probably. But the recommendation in most of those publications is to first report it to an internal member. By placing a person in the middle adds a place where the reporting can be subverted. I find it difficult to believe that you are worried about workers sleeping overnight but unconcerned with an organization that recommends a middle man in the reporting process.

Certainly people can go directly to the police but the ones that would do that probably already have. The rest may well be diverted from reporting by the church member assigned to the task.

You haven't forgotten that these procedures are based on Government guidelines, fully supported by the police, social services, child protection organisations, etc.? The churches nowadays want to follow the best advice and the procedures they are now adopting clearly shows they are following the best advice given by these bodies.

No, Still remembering. You haven't forgotten that these same organizations were already bound by law not to allow people to molest children.

Remember, these churches need insurance cover and they wont get it unless they have the necessary "approved" child protection policies in place. The CCPAS offers an approved registration facility where churches can have their policies approved and registered.

Right. I don't think I have ever heard of a case where an organization had all the policies in place but didn't actually follow them.
Two towns over there is a super-fund cleanup in place. The company had all of the permits and certificates in place. They were worth less than the papers they were files on.

More and more churches are using this. It helps them in many ways, including insurance purposes. Also, the scheme is approved by the Metropolitan Police and therefore ALL other police forces in the UK and no doubt further afield.

The scheme promoted by the police force is to report to them first then report to other agencies. I have never seen a police publication that says report to the designated church member and they will then report to the police.

[emy]

It's a bit difficult to understand the thought process of a child who would tell a teacher/coach of problems but not parents. However, as cubby points out, no one under 10 is ever likely to report to police and is even quite unlikely to report to parents.

I think the process here is that the child has been trained to tell any adult that is immediately available. Why wait until you get home when you can tell a trusted adult right away? Was the question asked if the child would tell the person there at the activity AND the parents at home?

Another thing, by the time some children start school, they are beginning to initiate an independence from their parents. This is true of kids who have healthy outgoing personalities, especially. I would not say this is universally true, but it is in some cases.

[cat girl]

Yes the linkis www.childwise.net
click on resources and the 12 step program to establish a child safe organization is the first one i think.
Also the booklets for parents are there as well. All are free!

[open mind]

Pamphlet I just saw this morning at our doctors,

www.napcan.org.au/images/uploads/pdf/3vefzm7eo1uu.pdf

[JO]

Oct 21, 2010 7:04:07 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The huge cultural shift that has to occur is a shift away from being a worker-focused, meeting-focused group. The shift has to become more focused to the needy, the small, the weak, the seeking.......which is what we are talking about when we say we need to be more "Christ-focused".

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

The focus now is on preserving the system. The values that are esteemed are all about system preservation.

[Deleted]

Rational, I'm sure everybody realises that all cases of CSA must be reported to the police. I'm sure too that most people realise that in virtually all cases of CSA the matter is not discovered in ongoing circumstances, i.e. during the actual commission of the offence.

I feel you still don't understand the wisdom behind having Church Child Protection officers within a church community. Here's a pretty standard scenario which is far more likely to happen than somebody walking in on ongoing child abuse.

Seven year old Johnny is normally a happy, friendly boy who mixes well and clearly enjoys attending church child activities. One day he attends and does not appear to be himself. He is acting quite reserved and someone notices he has a large bruise on his thigh, partly hidden by his shorts.

Rational, what would YOU do next!

I would appreciate it if others left answering this question to "rational!" Thanks!

[Deleted]

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

The focus now is on preserving the system. The values that are esteemed are all about system preservation.

This is a real TMB cliche.
Nothing specific, mind you.

Q - Can you tell me WHEN "Christ-like values" were supplanted by "system preservation"?
Q - Can you identify the people responsible for this shift?
Q - Can you itemize the values in question?

[sharonw]

Oct 21, 2010 20:42:02 GMT -5 open mind said:

Pamphlet I just saw this morning at our doctors,

www.napcan.org.au/images/uploads/pdf/3vefzm7eo1uu.pdf

This pamphlet would be a doable to get to the friends who have children or the elders of a mtg.

[sharonw]

Oct 21, 2010 23:00:15 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 21, 2010 7:04:07 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The huge cultural shift that has to occur is a shift away from being a worker-focused, meeting-focused group. The shift has to become more focused to the needy, the small, the weak, the seeking.......which is what we are talking about when we say we need to be more "Christ-focused".

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

The focus now is on preserving the system. The values that are esteemed are all about system preservation.

It just came to me, JO, that the "few in number" and few being added has played into this natural desire to preserve what one has. Then you add the fierce exiting of the fellowship and the CSA "attacks" against the leading level of the fellowship....all one will see is this severe mode of preservation...where the basic righteousness or good of that beginnings days are lost to this radical attempt to preserve and the preservation is wanted in the "seeable" mode, thus the stress on "form" gets overdone and has done so for the past generation or so.

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 6:40:08 GMT -5 @ram said:

Rational, I'm sure everybody realises that all cases of CSA must be reported to the police.

And you think people didn't know that previously?

I'm sure too that most people realise that in virtually all cases of CSA the matter is not discovered in ongoing circumstances, i.e. during the actual commission of the offence.

Not if the children are afraid to report it.
I would have also thought that most people would not leave their children with essential strangers just because they claim a connection to some paranormal being. But we both know these things are not true.
If people really thought the crimes were supposed to be reported to the police why would they go to a church member?
Do you think people would look to the church in the event of an automobile accident? A robbery? A mugging?
Would you not report an assault in the church directly to the police? Of course.

I feel you still don't understand the wisdom behind having Church Child Protection officers within a church community.

You are, of course, correct. I fail to see the wisdom in getting a church member involved prior to reporting to the police when that was the scenario that caused the problems to start with.

Here's a pretty standard scenario which is far more likely to happen than somebody walking in on ongoing child abuse.

Seven year old Johnny is normally a happy, friendly boy who mixes well and clearly enjoys attending church child activities. One day he attends and does not appear to be himself. He is acting quite reserved and someone notices he has a large bruise on his thigh, partly hidden by his shorts.

Rational, what would YOU do next!

Well, that is sort of a loose set of circumstances. The parents did not notice the bruise? Are we still talking about abuse by church members or is this a potential case of child abuse by parents? It would also depend on the amount of time I had known the child and how markedly the behavior change had been.

If this generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

If I had any kind of a relationship with the child I might venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

I would appreciate it if others left answering this question to "rational!" Thanks!

Personally, I think others should feel free to jump in and give their views.

[rational]

Oct 21, 2010 23:00:15 GMT -5 JO said:

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

You mean back when the crime rate was higher and there were more cases of CSA but they were well hidden?

[Deleted]

Well, that is sort of a loose set of circumstances. The parents did not notice the bruise? Are we still talking about abuse by church members or is this a potential case of child abuse by parents? It would also depend on the amount of time I had known the child and how markedly the behavior change had been.

If this generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

If I had any kind of a relationship with the child I might venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

I have given you a typical situation of how child abuse concerns may arise. The circumstances which I have outlayed are how (hypothetically) YOU rational, as a member of the church engaged in a church activity, discover them. What is your next step?

Can you be clearer on what your next step is? You can assume you know the child reasonably well.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2010 8:24:02 GMT -5 rational said:

Oct 21, 2010 23:00:15 GMT -5 JO said:

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

You mean back when the crime rate was higher and there were more cases of CSA but they were well hidden?

Where is your proof that CSA was higher a century ago?

[Deleted]

I would appreciate it if others left answering this question to "rational!" Thanks!

Personally, I think others should feel free to jump in and give their views.

No rational. You are the only one who is objecting to the concept of church child protection officers and their inclusion in reporting procedures.

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 8:31:05 GMT -5 @ram said:

Well, that is sort of a loose set of circumstances. The parents did not notice the bruise? Are we still talking about abuse by church members or is this a potential case of child abuse by parents? It would also depend on the amount of time I had known the child and how markedly the behavior change had been.

If this generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

If I had any kind of a relationship with the child I might venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

I have given you a typical situation of how child abuse concerns may arise. The circumstances which I have outlayed are how (hypothetically) YOU rational, as a member of the church engaged in a church activity, discover them. What is your next step?

Can you be clearer on what your next step is? You can assume you know the child reasonably well.

Since you have stipulated that I know the child well, I would venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

If the response, coupled with the change in behavior and the bruise, generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 8:51:34 GMT -5 @ram said:

I would appreciate it if others left answering this question to "rational!" Thanks!

Personally, I think others should feel free to jump in and give their views.

No rational. You are the only one who is objecting to the concept of church child protection officers and their inclusion in reporting procedures.

Let's at least state my objections as I articulated them.
I object to the church putting a church member in place and recommending that they be the point of first reporting.
I think the person can, as Scott stated, serve as a point of contact for the authorities in their investigation and be beneficial. I believe that having them as the initial contact opens the door to the same situation in which churches find themselves. I know you will say that they can go to the authorities instead but once you state that the report should be made to the church member that seed is planted.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2010 9:23:25 GMT -5 rational said:

Oct 22, 2010 8:31:05 GMT -5 @ram said:

Well, that is sort of a loose set of circumstances. The parents did not notice the bruise? Are we still talking about abuse by church members or is this a potential case of child abuse by parents? It would also depend on the amount of time I had known the child and how markedly the behavior change had been.

If this generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

If I had any kind of a relationship with the child I might venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

I have given you a typical situation of how child abuse concerns may arise. The circumstances which I have outlayed are how (hypothetically) YOU rational, as a member of the church engaged in a church activity, discover them. What is your next step?

Can you be clearer on what your next step is? You can assume you know the child reasonably well.

Since you have stipulated that I know the child well, I would venture a question about the bruise but in general the investigation is best left to the people who are trained to do that.

If the response, coupled with the change in behavior and the bruise, generated real concern I would notify the authorities, explain the circumstances, the reason for my concern, and ask what the next step should be.

Since the source of the trauma is unknown it would be unwise to report it to a person who may well be the cause of the abuse.

Rational. In the circumstance I gave, there is no suggestion of abuse of any kind. The child may have sustained the bruise a week beforehand after falling off their bike. The mood of the child may be totally unconnected and down to nothing more that the other boys won't play with him for some reason.

There's nothing wrong with asking the child "what's the matter," and after establishing that, if it was of an innocent nature, then ask about the bruise. However, women are generally far better than men at dealing with children in these circumstances.

In most circumstances the explanations are innocent. Whilst it is appropriate to be concerned about a child's welfare including being alert to the possibility of child abuse, we should not be alarminst. In most cases there will be innocent explanations.

Children bruise easily. They bruise often. Some cry easily. Some cry often. It is part of growing up. When I was young I regularly had bruises on my body from falling out of trees, playing football or rough and tumble games with my pals, or not sitting quietly in meeting.

When children are discovered in a church community where they have bruises or are not acting normal etc, then that it a good opportunity for them to be picked up on the radar. Most often the blips will be identified as friendly (innocent) forces and we don't have to scramble the police or social services to respond to innocent circumstances.

Often it takes time before instances of actual abuse become apparent. Churches which instigate preventaive and protection measures are to be complimented. Their trained staff are valuable radar operators and can scramble the appropriate services whenever a real threat is identified.

[emy]

Oct 22, 2010 8:51:34 GMT -5 @ram said:

I would appreciate it if others left answering this question to "rational!" Thanks!

Personally, I think others should feel free to jump in and give their views.

No rational. You are the only one who is objecting to the concept of church child protection officers and their inclusion in reporting procedures.

Wrong. Some of us are letting rational do the writing, because he does it well.

[Deleted]

Oh emy, I do apologise. I'd forgotten about his little travelling support who want no "organisation" even if it means disregarding the abuse of children.

Can I ask you what your closest involvement has been to to a real case of CSA?

[JO]

Oct 22, 2010 6:48:08 GMT -5 bert said:

We need a shift in values, back to how it was a few decades ago when Christ-like values were esteemed amongst us.

The focus now is on preserving the system. The values that are esteemed are all about system preservation.

This is a real TMB cliche.
Nothing specific, mind you.

Q - Can you tell me WHEN "Christ-like values" were supplanted by "system preservation"?
Q - Can you identify the people responsible for this shift?
Q - Can you itemize the values in question?

A -Its a gradual process that continues as we speak.
A -Everyone whose first love is the system rather than Christ.
A -When I have more time I will. Gal 5 would be a good place to start. Also the scripture that discusses the qualities of elders. And Matthew 5,6,7.

[emy]

Oct 22, 2010 12:37:44 GMT -5 @ram said:

Oh emy, I do apologise. I'd forgotten about his little travelling support who want no "organisation" even if it means disregarding the abuse of children.

Can I ask you what your closest involvement has been to to a real case of CSA?

No one responding here is DISREGARDING the abuse of children. I consider your comment nasty.

I will reveal my closest involvement when you do yours.

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 8:43:39 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Oct 22, 2010 8:24:02 GMT -5 rational said:

You mean back when the crime rate was higher and there were more cases of CSA but they were well hidden?

Where is your proof that CSA was higher a century ago?

Generally speaking, when someone says a "few decades ago" it does not mean a century ago.
However,
US Department of Justice Publication:
Substantiated cases of child sexual abuse decreased from a national estimated peak of 149,800 cases in 1992 to 103,600 cases in 1998, a decline of 31 percent.
Source - OJJDP Bulletin NCJ 184741
This Bulletin was prepared by Lisa M. Jones, Ph.D., Research Fellow, Crimes against Children Research Center, University of New Hampshire; and David Finkelhor, Ph.D., Professor of Sociology, and Director, Crimes against Children Research Center, University of New Hampshire.

FWIW - The University of New Hampshire maintains a very large data base on issues of crimes against children.

[Deleted]

Oct 22, 2010 15:40:27 GMT -5 emy said:

Oct 22, 2010 12:37:44 GMT -5 @ram said:

Oh emy, I do apologise. I'd forgotten about his little travelling support who want no "organisation" even if it means disregarding the abuse of children.

Can I ask you what your closest involvement has been to to a real case of CSA?

No one responding here is DISREGARDING the abuse of children. I consider your comment nasty.

I will reveal my closest involvement when you do yours.

Okay emy, as a supporter of "no organisation," how do YOU propose to introduce proper child protection measures without some form of organisation?

You clearly support maintaining the status quo. Your sensitivities are touched when there is an inference you may not be genuine in your approach to child protection, yet in the same breath almost, you clearly indicate you are all for protecting the workers and the system over protecting children in the fellowship.

Your sensitivities appear to have been touched (calling my remarks "nasty") by my suggestion that your "no organisation" is indicative of disregard for child protection.

How do YOU think your apparent indifferent remarks are being received not just by myself, but by the victims of CSA and their parents, etc.

If my remarks are nasty, then what does that suggest of your own?

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 11:31:00 GMT -5 @ram said:

Rational. In the circumstance I gave, there is no suggestion of abuse of any kind.

Really? In the circumstance when I inquired about the bruise he replied that it was from falling down the stairs and then tried to pull his shorts to cover it. When I asked if he was embarrassed he said it was something that he couldn't talk about.

The child may have sustained the bruise a week beforehand after falling off their bike.

It might have been but since he stated it was from falling down stairs (improbable) and then was embarrassed to talk about the cause of the bruise it seemed suspicious.

The mood of the child may be totally unconnected and down to nothing more that the other boys won't play with him for some reason.

Possibly, but it was observed that he had been interacting as usual up until that day and the other members had been reaching out to include him without success. That coupled with the fact that this normally gregarious boy now physically, as well as emotionally, withdrew from groups of people people also generated concern.

There's nothing wrong with asking the child "what's the matter," and after establishing that, if it was of an innocent nature, then ask about the bruise. However, women are generally far better than men at dealing with children in these circumstances.

Really? Do you think it is genetic? Would that be a recessive gene that carries the 'dealing with children' trait? That is like saying men make better doctors.

In most circumstances the explanations are innocent. Whilst it is appropriate to be concerned about a child's welfare including being alert to the possibility of child abuse, we should not be alarminst. In most cases there will be innocent explanations.

Well, in this case it turns out that there was cause for concern. When the social worker came to talk with the boy he almost immediately began to explain that he had been molested while on a church sponsored camping trip the previous month. He was upset because he had just learned that the abuser was going to become the leader of his activity group and had applied force when the boy said he had to tell someone because it was so upsetting.

Children bruise easily. They bruise often. Some cry easily. Some cry often.

He did bruise easily due to a vitamin K deficiency. And the unexpected bruise showing up made the abuser very angry and this also caused a lot of the distress that was noted in the boy's behavior.

It is part of growing up. When I was young I regularly had bruises on my body from falling out of trees, playing football or rough and tumble games with my pals, or not sitting quietly in meeting.

Oddly enough, these were among the excuses that the abuser had said the boy should use when questioned about the mark. The abuser did not know that due to the vitamin K deficiency a fall down stairs would have resulted in a multitude of bruises. These are the subtle things that one has to consider when evaluating a child's story regarding bruises.

When children are discovered in a church community where they have bruises or are not acting normal etc, then that it a good opportunity for them to be picked up on the radar. Most often the blips will be identified as friendly (innocent) forces and we don't have to scramble the police or social services to respond to innocent circumstances.

Right. That was what the church advisor had said. It is all part of life and we should just wait and see how it played out. It was only after the investigation began that it was learned that the advisor has been approached by the abuser and told that the boy was spreading lies about the incident. The advisor said he that would keep that in mind and not believe everything he heard.

Often it takes time before instances of actual abuse become apparent.

I am so glad I took the risk and decided to report directly to the authorities or I might have had my judgment swayed by the talk and warnings about the boy spreading lies from others.

Churches which instigate preventaive and protection measures are to be complimented.

Why? In this case they did not prevent he abuse nor protect the boy from the abuser after the fact.

Their trained staff are valuable radar operators and can scramble the appropriate services whenever a real threat is identified.

Waiting until a 'real threat' is identified is a disservice to the children. Not reporting a suspicion is a disservice.

I have a hunch that your experience of working directly with children at risk for any extended period of time is limited.

[rational]

Oct 22, 2010 17:59:50 GMT -5 @ram said:

Okay emy, as a supporter of "no organisation," how do YOU propose to introduce proper child protection measures without some form of organisation?

I think it was for no additional organizational parts.
People in the existing organization can be trained. Train and educational materials are readily available.

You clearly support maintaining the status quo. Your sensitivities are touched when there is an inference you may not be genuine in your approach to child protection, yet in the same breath almost, you clearly indicate you are all for protecting the workers and the system over protecting children in the fellowship.

Should it be assumed that you are still laboring under the idea that eliminating overnights will reduce he cases of child abuse even though there has been very little, if any, evidence supporting your premise?

Your sensitivities appear to have been touched (calling my remarks "nasty") by my suggestion that your "no organisation" is indicative of disregard for child protection.

Perhaps she was over reacting to your groundless claim.

How do YOU think your apparent indifferent remarks are being received not just by myself, but by the victims of CSA and their parents, etc.

Hopefully as a difference of opinion.

[emy]

Oct 22, 2010 17:59:50 GMT -5 @ram said:

Okay emy, as a supporter of "no organisation," how do YOU propose to introduce proper child protection measures without some form of organisation?

You clearly support maintaining the status quo. Your sensitivities are touched when there is an inference you may not be genuine in your approach to child protection, yet in the same breath almost, you clearly indicate you are all for protecting the workers and the system over protecting children in the fellowship.

That is not true. I disagree with you on the best way to protect them

Your sensitivities appear to have been touched (calling my remarks "nasty") by my suggestion that your "no organisation" is indicative of disregard for child protection.

Children can be protected without directives from an organization.

How do YOU think your apparent indifferent remarks are being received not just by myself, but by the victims of CSA and their parents, etc.

If they think I am indifferent, they are mistaken.

If my remarks are nasty, then what does that suggest of your own?