Vic/Tas requests help from senior workers

[rational]

Oct 24, 2010 16:09:26 GMT -5 hberry said:

I'm probably being over simplistic, but the problem I have with reporting to a church "authority" is the possibility that this person would tip the perpetrator off so he could fly the coop. If the reporting is directly with the police or other authorities, that doesn't seem as likely to happen.

In most states, once a claim has been filed it is required that there is some follow-up. Sort of like what happens when you child dials 911 while playing with the phone - there is at minimum a call back to investigate the reason for the call.
That is why most agencies suggest filing the report first with the responsible agency and then making any further non-official reports.

[Scott Ross]

Oct 25, 2010 6:58:04 GMT -5 @ettu said:

Oct 24, 2010 21:40:56 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

Just rethought how many workers I have been in contact with and it is actually closer to 20.

Well, while you're tooting your horn and feeling good about your connections, you might want to consider a reality check: that most friends can talk to or correspond with 20 workers any day of the week. And they'd be welcomed to. Unless of course you're an ex wanna be with an ax to unload on them.

The point I wanted to make Scott, concerning this thread, is that you are more likely to hear from malcontents. Complaint unfortunately has largely been the nature of these ex boards, and ex's. There's little or no reason for those feeling things are fine, or can talk freely with friends and workers to get in touch with you. So you're likely to have a skewed view. Whether there's any legs to what you've passed on, or it's a joke as someone mentioned, I don't know. Never the less, I suspect some thanks is due because these forums do provide a place to bring out dissatisfaction that otherwise might not be heard.

It's a delicate thing. Good luck to you and all.

Well, while you're tooting your horn and feeling good about your connections, you might want to consider a reality check: that most friends can talk to or correspond with 20 workers any day of the week. And they'd be welcomed to. Unless of course you're an ex wanna be with an ax to unload on them.

Actually the point I was trying to make wasn't meant to toot my own horn. It was meant to toot the WINGS horn. I just happen to be the administrator, so I am the one that gets to do the majority of the corresponding.(I DO still have my coronet from band that I got in 6th grade by the way, and occasionally take it out to drive the dogs and wife nutty)

The point I wanted to make Scott, concerning this thread, is that you are more likely to hear from malcontents.

Not true actually. I get plenty of workers/friends that contact me who are simply offering their thanks and support for what WINGS is involved in. (even you have thanked me)

Likewise as I said, people contact me to get additional information concerning various postings they read here on the board. In fact, most of my correspondence is of that nature rather than from complainers.

Complaint unfortunately has largely been the nature of these ex boards, and ex's. There's little or no reason for those feeling things are fine, or can talk freely with friends and workers to get in touch with you.

I can certainly agree that there is a lot of complaints here on the board.

Likewise I agree that there are many professing folks that feel that they CAN'T talk freely with the friends and workers. I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know. (I am referring to suggestions that could be used and not complaints)

So you're likely to have a skewed view. Whether there's any legs to what you've passed on, or it's a joke as someone mentioned, I don't know.

Well.... Take the recent posting of the conviction of the Canadian worker. WINGS was notified about this about 3 years ago from both exes, concerned workers and friends. I would imagine that there were about 10 professing people from that area that contacted me asking/giving information about that situation, and everything that was shared was proven to be true. I don't think that there was any skewed view in that regard.

I suppose that there are those that consider me/WINGS to be a joke, but luckily for us that doesn't include the workers, authorities, elders and friends and exes that have communicated with us concerning the issues that come up.

What I DID kind of get a chuckle about was an email I got a few days ago asking if I would be willing to appear in court as an 'expert witness' concerning some issues. The individuals are willing to pay for a flight, lodging and compensation to appear in court to testify.

Now THAT's funny!!! I mean really now..... why would I want to fly when I have a couple of perfectly good motorcycles sitting in the garage. As long as the weather is above 40 why would I fly??

Never the less, I suspect some thanks is due because these forums do provide a place to bring out dissatisfaction that otherwise might not be heard.

Yep. These forums aren't just for the exes to simply complain about a church that they no longer attend (which often makes no sense to me) but more importantly it is a venue where many of the professing folks can vent their frustrations about what they see is wrong about their church.

What I think is very beneficial are those that carry it a step further and don't just post complaints, but offer very usable solutions to problems that they see.

Thanks for the comments by the way.

Scott

[Linford Bledsoe]

Oct 23, 2010 19:55:05 GMT -5 ronhall said:

While it is good to bring forth ideas and discuss them extensively, the ideas brought up on this forum fit more in to the category of brain storming than anything else. To digress into lengthy arguments defeats the intended purpose by making this thread unreadable by those in responsible positions. They are definitely not going to wade through 13 pages, much of it acrimonious postings, at least I wouldn't if I were them.

Several ideas that came up here might have merit, but being lost in the mass of words, I really don't know what can be done. Perhaps there is someone who reads here that is close to a person of responsibility and can boil all the commentary down to a reasonable list of practical proposals. Who knows, it is quite likely these same things were discussed at the workers' meeting.

My exact sentimates Ronhall. Just another way of saying "see me here I am see me"

[Linford Bledsoe]

Oct 25, 2010 8:29:04 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

Oct 25, 2010 6:58:04 GMT -5 @ettu said:

Well, while you're tooting your horn and feeling good about your connections, you might want to consider a reality check: that most friends can talk to or correspond with 20 workers any day of the week. And they'd be welcomed to. Unless of course you're an ex wanna be with an ax to unload on them.

The point I wanted to make Scott, concerning this thread, is that you are more likely to hear from malcontents. Complaint unfortunately has largely been the nature of these ex boards, and ex's. There's little or no reason for those feeling things are fine, or can talk freely with friends and workers to get in touch with you. So you're likely to have a skewed view. Whether there's any legs to what you've passed on, or it's a joke as someone mentioned, I don't know. Never the less, I suspect some thanks is due because these forums do provide a place to bring out dissatisfaction that otherwise might not be heard.

It's a delicate thing. Good luck to you and all.

Well, while you're tooting your horn and feeling good about your connections, you might want to consider a reality check: that most friends can talk to or correspond with 20 workers any day of the week. And they'd be welcomed to. Unless of course you're an ex wanna be with an ax to unload on them.

Actually the point I was trying to make wasn't meant to toot my own horn. It was meant to toot the WINGS horn. I just happen to be the administrator, so I am the one that gets to do the majority of the corresponding.(I DO still have my coronet from band that I got in 6th grade by the way, and occasionally take it out to drive the dogs and wife nutty)

The point I wanted to make Scott, concerning this thread, is that you are more likely to hear from malcontents.

Not true actually. I get plenty of workers/friends that contact me who are simply offering their thanks and support for what WINGS is involved in. (even you have thanked me)

Likewise as I said, people contact me to get additional information concerning various postings they read here on the board. In fact, most of my correspondence is of that nature rather than from complainers.

Complaint unfortunately has largely been the nature of these ex boards, and ex's. There's little or no reason for those feeling things are fine, or can talk freely with friends and workers to get in touch with you.

I can certainly agree that there is a lot of complaints here on the board.

Likewise I agree that there are many professing folks that feel that they CAN'T talk freely with the friends and workers. I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know. (I am referring to suggestions that could be used and not complaints)

So you're likely to have a skewed view. Whether there's any legs to what you've passed on, or it's a joke as someone mentioned, I don't know.

Well.... Take the recent posting of the conviction of the Canadian worker. WINGS was notified about this about 3 years ago from both exes, concerned workers and friends. I would imagine that there were about 10 professing people from that area that contacted me asking/giving information about that situation, and everything that was shared was proven to be true. I don't think that there was any skewed view in that regard.

I suppose that there are those that consider me/WINGS to be a joke, but luckily for us that doesn't include the workers, authorities, elders and friends and exes that have communicated with us concerning the issues that come up.

What I DID kind of get a chuckle about was an email I got a few days ago asking if I would be willing to appear in court as an 'expert witness' concerning some issues. The individuals are willing to pay for a flight, lodging and compensation to appear in court to testify.

Now THAT's funny!!! I mean really now..... why would I want to fly when I have a couple of perfectly good motorcycles sitting in the garage. As long as the weather is above 40 why would I fly??

Never the less, I suspect some thanks is due because these forums do provide a place to bring out dissatisfaction that otherwise might not be heard.

Yep. These forums aren't just for the exes to simply complain about a church that they no longer attend (which often makes no sense to me) but more importantly it is a venue where many of the professing folks can vent their frustrations about what they see is wrong about their church.

What I think is very beneficial are those that carry it a step further and don't just post complaints, but offer very usable solutions to problems that they see.

Thanks for the comments by the way.

Scott

Could you give us the name of these overseers, so we can call them and verify this info?

[Scott Ross]

I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know.

Guess you are referring to that part of my post Lin?

Lyle Schober, Jeff Thayer, George Peterson, Jerome Frandle, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley, Joe Hobbs, Dale Schultz, Mark Huddle.

I may have missed a few, as this is just off the top of my head.

Only a couple of those got information directly from me, and the others got it from me through others who spoke with them concerning some issues.

In fact, with the exception of Lyle and Jerome, I am not even positive that the others knew that I had any hand in passing information to them, although I am pretty sure that Barry did.

So if you wish to contact any of them, the only two that I actually spoke with are Lyle and Jerome. (but just those two would in fact show my statement to be true.)

Scott

[Linford Bledsoe]

Thanks Scott for your honesty.

[sharonw]

Oct 25, 2010 7:22:59 GMT -5 @ram said:

I guess if there's anyone here who can rev a guy up it's oor Scotty?

I think he took a wrong turning though? The sign said "Biter Rally," NOT "Biker Rally!"

I wasn't particularly meaning oor Scotty!

[Deleted]

Oct 25, 2010 16:07:25 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Oct 25, 2010 7:22:59 GMT -5 @ram said:

I guess if there's anyone here who can rev a guy up it's oor Scotty?

I think he took a wrong turning though? The sign said "Biter Rally," NOT "Biker Rally!"

I wasn't particularly meaning oor Scotty!

Shaz, although I was responding to your post, I was reverring to ettu's post before it!

[JO]

Oct 25, 2010 14:47:36 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know.

Guess you are referring to that part of my post Lin?

Lyle Schober, Jeff Thayer, George Peterson, Jerome Frandle, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley, Joe Hobbs, Dale Schultz, Mark Huddle.

I may have missed a few, as this is just off the top of my head.

Only a couple of those got information directly from me, and the others got it from me through others who spoke with them concerning some issues.

In fact, with the exception of Lyle and Jerome, I am not even positive that the others knew that I had any hand in passing information to them, although I am pretty sure that Barry did.

So if you wish to contact any of them, the only two that I actually spoke with are Lyle and Jerome. (but just those two would in fact show my statement to be true.)

Scott

This is interesting.

Many of us who have been in the fellowship for decades, faithfully attend the meetings, have workers to stay in our homes, and recommend the fellowship to our kids....

.....find the overseers aloof and disinterested in hearing anything except commendation for everything workers say and do.

Yet it seems we could channel our concerns to the ministry through you?

[Scott Ross]

Oct 25, 2010 20:56:56 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 25, 2010 14:47:36 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know.

Guess you are referring to that part of my post Lin?

Lyle Schober, Jeff Thayer, George Peterson, Jerome Frandle, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley, Joe Hobbs, Dale Schultz, Mark Huddle.

I may have missed a few, as this is just off the top of my head.

Only a couple of those got information directly from me, and the others got it from me through others who spoke with them concerning some issues.

In fact, with the exception of Lyle and Jerome, I am not even positive that the others knew that I had any hand in passing information to them, although I am pretty sure that Barry did.

So if you wish to contact any of them, the only two that I actually spoke with are Lyle and Jerome. (but just those two would in fact show my statement to be true.)

Scott

This is interesting.

Many of us who have been in the fellowship for decades, faithfully attend the meetings, have workers to stay in our homes, and recommend the fellowship to our kids....

.....find the overseers aloof and disinterested in hearing anything except commendation for everything workers say and do.

Yet it seems we could channel our concerns to the ministry through you?

NO!!

If you have concerns for the ministry, I suggest that the best route is the direct one. As I mentioned, I only spoke with two of those overseers, and one of them contacted me. For whatever reason, there have been instances where people wanted to get information to a certain overseer, or needed to be put in contact with them, and I was able to help because of the many contacts I have with professing folks. I've made a lot of friends here on the TMB and through WINGS. They know that I am not in any way trying to harm the church, so they tend to trust me with getting/passing on information.

Likewise I have also found gospel meetings for people that ask. I've done that several times, and usually didn't just have an address and time for the gospel meetings, but also contact names and phone numbers to pass along.

Not everything I get involved with has to do with WINGS ya know....

.....find the overseers aloof and disinterested in hearing anything except commendation for everything workers say and do.

Well...... how much of that is perception and how much is reality? If they get treated like King Tut, then they might feel they have to act the part.

I've found that for the most part, the workers I've corresponded with appreciate normal conversation and being treated as an equal. I am sure there are some out there that certainly wouldn't want to have anything to do with a hardcore biker like me.......

[Deleted]

Uh... is that Mister Scott Ross?

[Scott Ross]

Yep.

Taken at the Patriot ride earlier this year. It ended at a national guard armory, and I was checking out a few of the weapons they had on display. There were a few of us that went on the ride, and it was really neat.

[Deleted]

Scott in Australia when bikies usually get together it is called "trouble."
Lots of gangs here, ie Hells Angels, Banditos, Commancheros etc are involved in drugs, prostitution, stand-over tactics. Some laws here are quite draconian, particularly in NSW.

[fred]

Oct 26, 2010 5:57:21 GMT -5 bert said:

Scott in Australia when bikies usually get together it is called "trouble."
Lots of gangs here, ie Hells Angels, Banditos, Commancheros etc are involved in drugs, prostitution, stand-over tactics. Some laws here are quite draconian, particularly in NSW.

The exception being the HOG's (Harley owners group) which is a much tamer more family oriented type meet. The Ulysses crew are a cool group too - many older guys with a focus on charity fund raising.

[sharonw]

Oct 25, 2010 20:56:56 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 25, 2010 14:47:36 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

I have passed on information to overseers from friends that do not wish the overseer to know where the information comes from, but wish them to know.

Guess you are referring to that part of my post Lin?

Lyle Schober, Jeff Thayer, George Peterson, Jerome Frandle, Ray Hoffman, Barry Barkley, Joe Hobbs, Dale Schultz, Mark Huddle.

I may have missed a few, as this is just off the top of my head.

Only a couple of those got information directly from me, and the others got it from me through others who spoke with them concerning some issues.

In fact, with the exception of Lyle and Jerome, I am not even positive that the others knew that I had any hand in passing information to them, although I am pretty sure that Barry did.

So if you wish to contact any of them, the only two that I actually spoke with are Lyle and Jerome. (but just those two would in fact show my statement to be true.)

Scott

This is interesting.

Many of us who have been in the fellowship for decades, faithfully attend the meetings, have workers to stay in our homes, and recommend the fellowship to our kids....

.....find the overseers aloof and disinterested in hearing anything except commendation for everything workers say and do.

Yet it seems we could channel our concerns to the ministry through you?

Actually, through Scott or WINGS is about the ONLY way to get info to some overseers. I know of some that Scott named who are or were before the spec. overseers' mtg. that did NOT want to hear any kind of adverse news about their "peers".....

So in order to bring them up to speed, Scott/and or Wings is the only way to get them all on the same page, unless they read it here! I think the mtg. in Seneca was a validation for those of us that had tried our best to get the workers in power to even begin to look at the issues that are killing the fellowship!

[Linford Bledsoe]

I would give the credit to God. He sees all and knows far better how to heal wrongs. Healing comes from within. Not from outside of the body. I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence. How could they get on the same page here,with some of the wild statements made here.
.

[ts]

Oct 26, 2010 9:35:03 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

I would give the credit to God. He sees all and knows far better how to heal wrongs. Healing comes from within. Not from outside of the body. I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence. How could they get on the same page here,with some of the wild statements made here.
.

I agree. Healing comes from within the body. Like the Samaritan helping the man on the side of the road.

Healing has indeed come from within the body of Christ. Take Scott, for example. He is a part of the body of Christ, though he is not a meeting goer. He is just a guy out there who God moved to fill a role in the body of Christ. He is instrumental in healing the wounds in the body caused by ungodly men who crept in among God's people and damaged lives and souls. God gets the credit for moving Scott's heart. Scott gets the credit for responding. In the day of judgment, that will all be taken into account.

[Scott Ross]

Oct 26, 2010 9:35:03 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

I would give the credit to God. He sees all and knows far better how to heal wrongs. Healing comes from within. Not from outside of the body. I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence. How could they get on the same page here,with some of the wild statements made here.
.

I agree with you Lin. All credit goes to God for how he is working through everyone involved to heal the church.

Likewise it is also true that the healing has to come from within.

However I know that WINGS has had influence on what has been happening in the church. I am not discounting what you have posted:

I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence

I would imagine that they are being influenced by other workers and the friends who now have an awareness because of WINGS.

Also, in keeping with your thought of 'healing must come from within', WINGS now includes members who are professing.

These people have access to additional means of communication within the church, so WINGS will be able to be more effective in how it is giving out information.

Some GREAT people have joined us, and I am thrilled to include people who have a vested interest in the church to help us.

Who knows? Maybe some day I will be able to 'retire' and let those within the church take care of all this fun stuff I get to do. (just not sure the others will accept my resignation......)

Scott

[Deleted]

Oct 26, 2010 6:32:39 GMT -5 fred said:

Oct 26, 2010 5:57:21 GMT -5 bert said:

Scott in Australia when bikies usually get together it is called "trouble."
Lots of gangs here, ie Hells Angels, Banditos, Commancheros etc are involved in drugs, prostitution, stand-over tactics. Some laws here are quite draconian, particularly in NSW.

The exception being the HOG's (Harley owners group) which is a much tamer more family oriented type meet. The Ulysses crew are a cool group too - many older guys with a focus on charity fund raising.

Yes, I happen to know a few from the Ulysses. Nice guys. Scott reminds me of 'em actually ;D
What I find astonishing about "bikies" in gangs is the fact that some find authority problematic, so join these groups to have someone rule over them.
One group went to Melb last week. An ambulance was called when a member had an "accident with a knuckle duster."

[Angelina Mouse]

;DHey Bert, What about the bikie that dropped a patchie [wheelie] right in front of the cops. He was arrested re VIC Hooning law. Was he just being arrogant or plain stupid!!! ::)You dont hav to be a bikie to ride a motorbike either.!

[JO]

Oct 26, 2010 9:35:03 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

I would give the credit to God. He sees all and knows far better how to heal wrongs. Healing comes from within. Not from outside of the body. I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence. How could they get on the same page here,with some of the wild statements made here.

I'm curious as to how long Lin feels it should take for the Australian overseers to acknowledge that child sexual abuse is unacceptable behaviour for professing Christians.

It seems to me that they have no intention of doing so, therefore WINGS is proving to be necessary.

[spiders]

Feb 14, 2012 4:21:42 GMT -5 JO said:

Oct 26, 2010 9:35:03 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

I would give the credit to God. He sees all and knows far better how to heal wrongs. Healing comes from within. Not from outside of the body. I have personally talked to several of these men and know their concerns and it has nothing to do with Wings influence. How could they get on the same page here,with some of the wild statements made here.

I'm curious as to how long Lin feels it should take for the Australian overseers to acknowledge that child sexual abuse is unacceptable behaviour for professing Christians.

It seems to me that they have no intention of doing so, therefore WINGS is proving to be necessary.

Exactly JO. There has been two conventions since the saga of EB eventuated and not one word has been spoken acknowledging what happened. The friends are disappointed and disillusioned with the way in which the workers have handled CSA, with the main purpose being to keep covering it up to protect the reputation of the ministry.

If they had of taken the initiative and been honest and open with the friends and given assurances that steps would be put in place to make sure that CSA would never happen again; then I think that the fellowship would be much better off and the workers would be respected.

[aussie22]

Many years ago my Dad spoke to the workers about issues that were far from right within the fellowship and he suggested that they address the problems and be honest to the people.
I asked My Dad what the response was from the workers and he said the workers said if they did that the friends would never believe us again.
How sad.
If only they had been honest and truthfully all along they would have nothing to fear.
They have covered up the truth and even lied to the friends so everything looks right for them, and now it is causing such grief and heartache

[JO]

Feb 14, 2012 6:13:29 GMT -5 spiders said:

Feb 14, 2012 4:21:42 GMT -5 JO said:

I'm curious as to how long Lin feels it should take for the Australian overseers to acknowledge that child sexual abuse is unacceptable behaviour for professing Christians.

It seems to me that they have no intention of doing so, therefore WINGS is proving to be necessary.

Exactly JO. There has been two conventions since the saga of EB eventuated and not one word has been spoken acknowledging what happened. The friends are disappointed and disillusioned with the way in which the workers have handled CSA, with the main purpose being to keep covering it up to protect the reputation of the ministry.

If they had of taken the initiative and been honest and open with the friends and given assurances that steps would be put in place to make sure that CSA would never happen again; then I think that the fellowship would be much better off and the workers would be respected.

Overseers are busy with administrative matters - keeping the convention system running smoothly, managing their staff, etc. A semblance of unity and "business as usual" is what matters most.

Leadership in morals and principles will have to come from somewhere else.

[spiders]

Feb 14, 2012 14:41:05 GMT -5 JO said:

Feb 14, 2012 6:13:29 GMT -5 spiders said:

Exactly JO. There has been two conventions since the saga of EB eventuated and not one word has been spoken acknowledging what happened. The friends are disappointed and disillusioned with the way in which the workers have handled CSA, with the main purpose being to keep covering it up to protect the reputation of the ministry.

If they had of taken the initiative and been honest and open with the friends and given assurances that steps would be put in place to make sure that CSA would never happen again; then I think that the fellowship would be much better off and the workers would be respected.

Overseers are busy with administrative matters - keeping the convention system running smoothly, managing their staff, etc. A semblance of unity and "business as usual" is what matters most.

Leadership in morals and principles with have to come from somewhere else.

In any business that values and cares about their staff and is successful, you will find that these sort of things come from the CEO. The right culture is established at the top and is shown by example to the employees. The f&w group should be no different

[aussie22]

Well said Spiders.

[ronhall]

Feb 14, 2012 15:22:59 GMT -5 spiders said:

In any business that values and cares about their staff and is successful, you will find that these sort of things come from the CEO. The right culture is established at the top and is shown by example to the employees. The f&w group should be no different

And who, may I ask, is the CEO of the f&w group?

[spiders]

Feb 14, 2012 19:46:59 GMT -5 ronhall said:

Feb 14, 2012 15:22:59 GMT -5 spiders said:

In any business that values and cares about their staff and is successful, you will find that these sort of things come from the CEO. The right culture is established at the top and is shown by example to the employees. The f&w group should be no different

And who, may I ask, is the CEO of the f&w group?

For the purposes of my analogy........the overseer of an area, state or territory. I wonder who the chief overseer (or Chairman of the Board) would be??