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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 14:47:46 GMT -5
Are You attacking me Sharon?
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2010 15:31:04 GMT -5
If there is an issue with a worker it, is his or her own responsibility to come clean. That is known as integrity. Those that accuse him or her should confront with evidence. It is an open lack of honesty when it is required for the overseer to be involved. Lin, I agree with you that a false accusation is possible and the damage it can do is enormous. However, false CSA accusations are relatively rare. The main reason CSA allegations take so long to surface is the victim doubts they will be believed. They even might doubt their own sanity. A five year old is not going to say to the perp "please let me set up the video camera before you start". In the absence of such proof do you think we should assume the abuse never happened? |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 12, 2010 16:09:07 GMT -5
You mention those that they may be staying with. I feel this is some of the problem. Workers are inclined to frequent some homes more than others. Some for a long length of time . This can breed familiarity that can be conducive to such happenings. I would like to see workers moving out and getting an apartment and work among the masses.I think you would see less of these type of situations. I agree, and I feel that many issues could be addressed through the workers renting an apartment. It would put them out in communities, not as dependent on the friends for generating "interest." Some of us who worked in foreign countries, where we used "baches," benefited from the experience in this way. A word of caution too though - I have seen some places where a particular "bach" was held by succeeding pairs of workers for years, and seemed to become an institution in itself. To me, that tended to lessen the ability to meet new people and it didn't seem to require as much faith either, much like moving among the friends. Different sides to consider in everything . . . |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 12, 2010 16:10:00 GMT -5
Are You attacking me Sharon? No, I simply said I do not understand why you don't seem to understand! Phew! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 17:56:23 GMT -5
I confess to thinking bad things: I have looked at women lustfully.  When I hear of someone shooting someone else I often think, "Well, yes, I feel like doing that sometimes!"  I hear of "road rage" I wonder if I wouldn't have done the same thing with some idiot driver.  I hear of a teller machine or bank robbery I wonder, "Would I do that if I was really broke?"  etc etc But... for the life of me, I can't figure out what goes through the mind of a person who fiddles with kids. Children are not sexual objects! |
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2010 18:26:07 GMT -5
I'm savoring the moment -
Bert and I are actually in agreement.
What's happened to the Karma?
I might have bumped Bert up from -39 to -38 or something like that...
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Post by Admin on Aug 12, 2010 19:10:50 GMT -5
I confess to thinking bad things: I have looked at women lustfully. When I hear of someone shooting someone else I often think, "Well, yes, I feel like doing that sometimes!" I hear of "road rage" I wonder if I wouldn't have done the same thing with some idiot driver. I hear of a teller machine or bank robbery I wonder, "Would I do that if I was really broke?" etc etc But... for the life of me, I can't figure out what goes through the mind of a person who fiddles with kids. Children are not sexual objects! Give thanks to the Lord for He is good For His mercy endures forever. Go in peace, brother bert. "Thanks be to God." |
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Post by Gene on Aug 12, 2010 19:54:51 GMT -5
...I do not accept that every worker who has indulged in improper behaviour of a sexual nature is a paedophile, gay, lesbian or even a Casanova!" Yes there are some who are indeed afflicted by these tendencies and they need rooted out and FAST!... So all the gays and lesbians should be removed from the work, along with the paedophiles and Casanovas? Do you mean all the gays and lesbians, or just the sexually active ones? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 2:08:51 GMT -5
Those who indulge in improper behaviour, Gene! Heteros, homos, paedos.....you name it, the blinking lot. We all have our weak persuasions, mainly inherited at birth. It is about self control. The domestic culture of workers must put some of the weaker ones under enormous pressure where self restraint is little defence.
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Post by Ju on Aug 13, 2010 2:32:47 GMT -5
I have to express my great disappointment in the Tasmanian/Victoria workers... a couple of weeks after hearing about the allegations *(via the internet) against the vic/tas worker who has stayed in our home this year with us having two young daughters we have not been contacted by the workers or received a letter. It seems despite the hard work and advice of wings the good intentions have come to nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 2:35:28 GMT -5
Like I said, they make good blacksmiths!
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Post by Gene on Aug 13, 2010 5:07:59 GMT -5
Those who indulge in improper behaviour, Gene! Heteros, homos, paedos.....you name it, the blinking lot. We all have our weak persuasions, mainly inherited at birth. It is about self control. The domestic culture of workers must put some of the weaker ones under enormous pressure where self restraint is little defence. I understand -- and agree! |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 13, 2010 6:42:36 GMT -5
Those who indulge in improper behaviour, Gene! Heteros, homos, paedos.....you name it, the blinking lot. We all have our weak persuasions, mainly inherited at birth. It is about self control. The domestic culture of workers must put some of the weaker ones under enormous pressure where self restraint is little defence. I understand -- and agree! As a very devoted brother worker, who is now no longer with us, said that it wasn't any different then a kleptomaniac who needed to learn self control/discipline. Just because we're born with tendencies which are often anti-social ones, God gave us the ability to learn when and how an who to engage those tendencies with or not with! We're given brains and I believe we're expected to use them!  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 7:02:19 GMT -5
Sharon, consider yourself exalted. This is the type of exaltation that the TMB thief cannot rob you of!
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Post by sharonw on Aug 13, 2010 7:12:46 GMT -5
Sharon, consider yourself exalted. This is the type of exaltation that the TMB thief cannot rob you of! thanks  |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 13, 2010 7:13:53 GMT -5
I confess to thinking bad things: I have looked at women lustfully. When I hear of someone shooting someone else I often think, "Well, yes, I feel like doing that sometimes!" I hear of "road rage" I wonder if I wouldn't have done the same thing with some idiot driver. I hear of a teller machine or bank robbery I wonder, "Would I do that if I was really broke?" etc etc But... for the life of me, I can't figure out what goes through the mind of a person who fiddles with kids. Children are not sexual objects! This bears repeating! Thanks, Bert!  |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 13, 2010 8:23:16 GMT -5
Hey Ju! I have to express my great disappointment in the Tasmanian/Victoria workers... a couple of weeks after hearing about the allegations *(via the internet) against the vic/tas worker who has stayed in our home this year with us having two young daughters we have not been contacted by the workers or received a letter. It seems despite the hard work and advice of wings the good intentions have come to nothing. There are several people that are disappointed with how the workers seem to have stopped what they had planned to do. Not just the letter, but also the Union Meeting they scheduled to provide answers to the members of the church. I should again point out that the letter that is posted on WINGS came about because of the efforts of some of the professing folks in Vic/Tas who asked for some help with this through WINGS. I believe that the letter (or one similar) will still be sent out, but it may have to come from the concerned friends rather than from the workers. This is unfortunate really, as it will be one more time that the workers will have shown a disregard for the church members, and also disregarded the needs of those who were abused by the individual in question. The fact that the worker has confessed to abuse, and the fact that about 10 people have come forward now should show a need to get the message out to all people about this issue. I have heard that some of the professing folks have printed out the letter and shared it with relatives and other members of the truth fellowship, plus we have had a lot of people read it on WINGS. Here is a link to the letter on WINGS for those reading here who would like to print it off and share it, or who might like to share the link with others. wingsfortruth.info/victasfriends.pdfAgain, this letter came about because of the efforts of professing folks there who asked for help with getting the information out. In the words of a professing individual which is in this letter: It is our belief that by openly tackling any such issues should they arise, in a legally correct manner, the fellowship will only grow in integrity and with its reputation enhanced. By seeking to deny or cover over such issues, the reputation of the fellowship can only suffer. It seems improbable that God could bless a ministry that knowingly failed to deal correctly with any worker who had sexually abused children.Likewise I should point out that WINGS has recently taken a step which many felt wouldn't happen. We have now added new members who are professing. This is an important step for WINGS as it will no longer be seen as just 'a bunch of exes'. There are a lot of concerned professing folks that see the need for a method to hold the overseers accountable in these situations. Fortunately, here in the US, Barry Barkley has taken a strong stand on this issue recently, letting the other overseers know that there have been mistakes in the past as to how sexual abuse in the fellowship has been handled by the workers (not just child abuse, but other issues as well) and that the way these issues are addressed needs to be changed immediately. Some of the overseers have now started to actually address past issues with open conversations with the abusers and their victims. Overseers have sought outside help with this issue and have attended classes concerning this. (This was noted on the board a while back in regard to sensitivity training and was also the subject at the recent meeting on the Seneca convention grounds) He has made it clear that the focus needs to shift from trying to help the offender to helping the victims. Of course we have seen that some of the overseers recently have already taken this course of action in cases in Minnesota and Texas, and other overseers were also involved in those cases. This has been a great step forward here in the US, and it is hoped that it will also help bring change in other parts of the world. As always, WINGS is there to assist everyone in any way that we can. Scott |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 9:49:02 GMT -5
Scott, whilst I appreciate that worker naivity or even a feeling they are out of their depth with these issues, may be contributing factors for apparent worker reluctance or indifference, I wonder if there is a real fear for some of them that "personal skeletons in the cupboard" might come out if they go too far down the path of openness and disclosure.
After all, there might be quite a few bumps in that big carpet that need explaining?
The longer these issues drag on, the more it will be speculated that other workers including overseers, may have their own dark issues they want to hide? This is the risk they take by dragging their heels.
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Post by tas2000 on Aug 13, 2010 9:53:59 GMT -5
I have to express my great disappointment in the Tasmanian/Victoria workers... a couple of weeks after hearing about the allegations *(via the internet) against the vic/tas worker who has stayed in our home this year with us having two young daughters we have not been contacted by the workers or received a letter. It seems despite the hard work and advice of wings the good intentions have come to nothing. Hey Ju! Maybe it's time to suggest to PD that if he is not going to deal with it then there is no option but to ask the authorities to take a look. It's time someone held these guys accountable. BJB  |
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Post by aus1 on Aug 13, 2010 10:48:03 GMT -5
Tas2000, Is PD dealing with this in Tas, or is he back in WA?
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Post by StAnne on Aug 13, 2010 11:34:46 GMT -5
Could it be that the meeting was cancelled while they step back to seek legal and/or educational advisment before proceeding? It's a weighty issue...
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 13, 2010 12:05:03 GMT -5
I have to express my great disappointment in the Tasmanian/Victoria workers... a couple of weeks after hearing about the allegations *(via the internet) against the vic/tas worker who has stayed in our home this year with us having two young daughters we have not been contacted by the workers or received a letter. It seems despite the hard work and advice of wings the good intentions have come to nothing. There are several people that are disappointed with how the workers seem to have stopped what they had planned to do. Not just the letter, but also the Union Meeting they scheduled to provide answers to the members of the church. I have found this to be a problem in other issues than CSA too. When a then-professing man was seriously affecting another family here in Honolulu, and I pointed out what was going on, in time an overseer did take time to visit with me. He listened patiently, then told me that they - the workers - felt the same way I did about the man, but they were waiting for a specific sister worker to "come around." That in itself was problematic to me, as people were being seriously hurt, but it seemed to be a step anyway. Well, I visited with that sister worker at convention a few weeks later, as the overseer had suggested, and yes, she had begun to see that there was an issue, although it seemed difficult for her to actually say so. But her attitude toward us had definitely changed. I acknowledged this to the overseer when he asked later that day. But nothing was done. The situation was allowed to sort of "play out," but there are still some things unresolved. This doesn't mean anyone is "bitter." But the affect is still there, though the man has moved out of the country. And no one has admitted to his/her complicity in the entire, several-years-long issue. Again, we are not "bitter" about it - we're "moved on," we're happy. And I assume others have too. But I feel there was a reason why things were so effectively "silenced" for several years, a reason why we were repeatedly told to not talk about it. And all we were asking is that we could meet with someone who was accusing us of something - of what we're still unclear - and find out what the issue was with us. I strongly feel that the man in some way felt threatened by me and made trouble for us. Though the workers never did like this man either, he was allowed to do and say as he pleased, while we were told to be quiet. Why? What were they afraid of? What did he know that they didn't want spoken? What did he do for them? Violent power was used - lies, insinuations of "you're losing out," etc. And it was allowed to just "quietly go away." I can forgive, and I have. But the reasons behind the violence remain. The ability to use power in this way remains, there to use on the next person who happens to cross the wrong person. This is where I feel things must be addressed. I'm not interested in "toppling" a system. But I am very interested in interrogating misuse of position and power. And I'm not trying to point fingers and assign blame. We're all involved in various ways. Before this happened to us, I too wanted to have a nice place for the workers to stay, a car I could loan them, etc. And I realize now that it was just "approval," and probably "status" that I wanted. But an experience came along to show me the problems in my thinking. I must also assume that others are doing things in the belief that they are making the right decisions, so entrenched in a system that they do not see their own involvement in hurting others, or at the least they are unable to see a way out of it, even if they do recognize the issues. This may seem a bit "off-track" from the CSA issues this thread is dealing with, but I see an over-arching, connecting misuse of power in CSA and other issues that have arisen. I also see no way to resolve things if we hurry in, eager to assign blame. We all live in complex intersections of identities and power. Is there any way to untangle them without first seeing our own involvement, "removing the beam from our own eye"? I'm not saying we have all done criminal acts, but we have bought into power and status ourselves, generally until we're either hurt badly enough or we feel enough tension from the difference between what we've been told and what we're experiencing. Uhhh . . . sorry . . . this became longer than planned! |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 13, 2010 12:10:19 GMT -5
Scott, whilst I appreciate that worker naivity or even a feeling they are out of their depth with these issues, may be contributing factors for apparent worker reluctance or indifference, I wonder if there is a real fear for some of them that "personal skeletons in the cupboard" might come out if they go too far down the path of openness and disclosure. After all, there might be quite a few bumps in that big carpet that need explaining? The longer these issues drag on, the more it will be speculated that other workers including overseers, may have their own dark issues they want to hide? This is the risk they take by dragging their heels. I have wondered this myself too, ram, particularly as things began happening to us a few years ago, and we were effectively "silenced." I am in no way implying that all workers have some skeletons. But a few who do have them - and who have enough power/control - can make it pretty uncomfortable for others to deal with things. Workers, like the rest of us, are worrying about their futures too - I sometimes call it "job security." And that can be a powerful factor, particularly if you're middle-aged, have no education or marketable skills . . . |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2010 12:22:20 GMT -5
Scott, whilst I appreciate that worker naivity or even a feeling they are out of their depth with these issues, may be contributing factors for apparent worker reluctance or indifference, I wonder if there is a real fear for some of them that "personal skeletons in the cupboard" might come out if they go too far down the path of openness and disclosure. After all, there might be quite a few bumps in that big carpet that need explaining? The longer these issues drag on, the more it will be speculated that other workers including overseers, may have their own dark issues they want to hide? This is the risk they take by dragging their heels. I have wondered this myself too, ram, particularly as things began happening to us a few years ago, and we were effectively "silenced." I am in no way implying that all workers have some skeletons. But a few who do have them - and who have enough power/control - can make it pretty uncomfortable for others to deal with things. Workers, like the rest of us, are worrying about their futures too - I sometimes call it "job security." And that can be a powerful factor, particularly if you're middle-aged, have no education or marketable skills . . . I think we are hitting on something which probably has a lot of relevance. If it really was spiritual concerns then surely they would seek to have faith in God to provide (?). However, if there were skeletons and natural concerns then their inclinations would be towards stopping the hole in the dam getting bigger. |
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 13, 2010 12:28:06 GMT -5
But... for the life of me, I can't figure out what goes through the mind of a person who fiddles with kids. Children are not sexual objects! Can we extend this, Bert? No one should be a "sexual object." Sex should occur between people within a relationship of trust and love. But modern society "objectifies" it - makes people, and females in particular, an object for others to use. This is obvious enough in terms of pornography, or even in walking down to Waikiki Beach a couple miles from here. And in advertising, of course, where even young girls are dressed and pose in provocative manners. When anyone is treated as an object, personal boundaries are violated. That person becomes a "thing" for others to use, in whatever manner - sexual or otherwise. And when we begin to see our fellow human beings - and by extension ourselves - as objects to use, I believe it can lead anywhere - the boundaries have already been violated. I'm certainly not excusing CSA, but I feel we need to interrogate, not just society around us, but the manner in which we view and treat the "other" person or people - "them." I wonder if any of us have invested in corporations that commodify people's bodies in this way . . . or how many are enticed to come to Hawai`i, at least partially through advertisements using Asian "hula girls" to portray a highly feminized, sexualized image of the Pacific? I like those ads too! I find it helpful to think through my involvement, my complicity, in things . . . |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 13, 2010 13:05:58 GMT -5
Scott quote "There are a lot of concerned professing folks that see the need for a method to hold the overseers accountable in these situations."
IMO, this IS a big step....that FINALLY professing folks are actually seeing the truth of things and not hiding their heads in the sand. Now if they can all be of a good courage, this will eventually play out in the best interest of all and truth and honesty will rule the day! The professing folks, friends and workers alike, who do see these truths can collaborate together and hopefully bring about the "cleansing" that enables the whole fellowship to be a blessing to our God and Saviour.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 13, 2010 13:11:31 GMT -5
What encompasses cleansing? What is in the best interest of all truth? Do we really know all the details of this Tasmania case or just what we read here? I don't think so.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 13, 2010 15:12:13 GMT -5
What encompasses cleansing? What is in the best interest of all truth? Do we really know all the details of this Tasmania case or just what we read here? I don't think so. Well.... I can tell you that what we read here is definitely far from all the details about this!! I am not real sure if it is all going to be brought out or not, although if just what we read about here is dealt with that would be a good start! Scott |
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Prayers for all who have requested prayer, or for whom prayer has been requested.