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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 11, 2010 20:40:06 GMT -5
If all of the workers were removed would that be the end of CSA Sharon?
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Post by ts on Aug 11, 2010 21:25:55 GMT -5
No, it would be the end of CSA from "God's only true servants"
We all recognize that workers are human. CSA among workers is so despicable from workers because of their trusted position AND the fact that it is so hard to confront them on CSA or any other kind of abuse. They are above accusation because of their status as "God's only true servants in God's only truth and way."
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Post by emy on Aug 12, 2010 0:26:53 GMT -5
.... As someone said, it really is hard for some of us to wrap our brains and hearts around the fact that the older workers just did NOT understand the permanent harm done to the victims, their focus was on re-establishing the perpatrator as an honorable worker! As many of the older workers there were, it really is extremely difficult for me to believe that they were all this unknowing! Given that what was known about CSA in their day was miniscule in comparison to now, I think the older workers reacted much like a lot of society did. Claims of repentance were believed and a change of venue was considered to be healthy for the accused and healing for the victim (out of sight, out of mind). You would surely concede that we live in a different social structure than we did 50 years ago - or 40 - or 30.
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2010 1:01:46 GMT -5
If all of the workers were removed would that be the end of CSA Sharon? Lin, do you think ALL workers are CSA perpetrators? I'm pretty sure its only a minority. However, if workers close ranks and protect their errant fellow workers they share the guilt. IMO there is no need for CSA perps in the work.
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aus1
Junior Member
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Post by aus1 on Aug 12, 2010 4:48:58 GMT -5
Hey Bert! There are other issues that are being looked into that have been known about and covered up however.. Another worker is currently not listed as having a companion at the moment, and I believe that the authorities are starting an investigation concerning him. It is one more item that the overseers are dealing with at the moment. Scott Scott, Going by what you are saying re: another woker is under investigation, this is going from bad to worse for Vic/Tas workers/friends. I saw a workers name in bracket in Tasmania and wondered why this was, perhaps this explains it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 5:49:42 GMT -5
I think it is time that a two-pronged approach is taken as a result of the CSA and other issues of improper behaviour. Whilst the number of workers involved is still on the face of it very few, compared the the overall amount of workers, the number of victims of the abuses is potentially very high.
As Prime Minister Within Churchhouse once said "Never in the field of human ministry, was so much suffered by so many, by so few!"
Anyway, on a more serious note, it is high time that the ministry domestic arrangements were examined and overhauled. I do not accept that every worker who has indulged in improper behaviour of a sexual nature is a paedophile, gay, lesbian or even a Casanova!" Yes there are some who are indeed afflicted by these tendencies and they need rooted out and FAST!
However, I believe that if that big carpet with all the bumps in it could be lifted, there would be some very surprising revelations would come to the fore. The unhealthy mix of denial, sacrifice, temptation opportunity and exemplary trust will no doubt have caused even some of the best of workers to stumble along the way, and it is these ones who need some degree of understanding.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2010 6:55:26 GMT -5
If all of the workers were removed would that be the end of CSA Sharon? If all workers are covering it up, then all workers should be removed. It's really that serious. Covering up serious crime is a serious crime.
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Post by fred on Aug 12, 2010 7:03:47 GMT -5
Something else been on my mind too emy, and that is the punishment.
It doesn't seem just that a person found guilty of abuse dating to the 70's should receive punishment that is appropriate for 2010. Society would have deemed a much lighter sentence for someone found guilty in the 70's.
I wonder if judges take this into account.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 12, 2010 7:12:18 GMT -5
If all of the workers were removed would that be the end of CSA Sharon? That's a weird question to ask of me...I'm all for the workers stepping up to the plate and doing what is morally and legallhy correct just like I'm guided to do as a health professional!
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 7:39:07 GMT -5
It doesn't seem just that a person found guilty of abuse dating to the 70's should receive punishment that is appropriate for 2010. Society would have deemed a much lighter sentence for someone found guilty in the 70's.If it would have been dealt with in the 70's, they would have been judged by the 70's standards. That is one of the problems with covering these issues up. When they are dealt with immediately, the whole issue is done with in a short time span. What is going on in Vic/Tas will either be done within a few months or it will drag on for a looooong time. It is up to the workers there to decide which route this takes. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I have never heard of anyone leaving the truth fellowship when the overseers took appropriate action in dealing with CSA issues. However I have heard of dozens who have left for not taking appropriate action. Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 7:43:55 GMT -5
If all of the workers were removed would that be the end of CSA Sharon? That's a weird question to ask of me...I'm all for the workers stepping up to the plate and doing what is morally and legallhy correct just like I'm guided to do as a health professional! I don't think it's a strange question. you seem the most vocal in criticizing workers. Is it fair to criticize when in most cases knowledge of the crime isn't made known for 20,30 ,40 years.That in itselfi strange. Could it be it is now being made popular to tell. Just wondering.
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Post by ScholarGal on Aug 12, 2010 8:07:46 GMT -5
I don't think it's a strange question. you seem the most vocal in criticizing workers. Is it fair to criticize when in most cases knowledge of the crime isn't made known for 20,30 ,40 years.That in itselfi strange. Could it be it is now being made popular to tell. Just wondering. Another option: Could be it is now being made popular possible to tell.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 8:11:06 GMT -5
I don't think it's a strange question. you seem the most vocal in criticizing workers. Is it fair to criticize when in most cases knowledge of the crime isn't made known for 20,30 ,40 years.That in itselfi strange. Could it be it is now being made popular to tell. Just wondering. Another option: Could be it is now being made popular possible to tell.Could be a good reason.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 8:22:33 GMT -5
Hey Bert! There are other issues that are being looked into that have been known about and covered up however.. Another worker is currently not listed as having a companion at the moment, and I believe that the authorities are starting an investigation concerning him. It is one more item that the overseers are dealing with at the moment. Scott Scott, Going by what you are saying re: another woker is under investigation, this is going from bad to worse for Vic/Tas workers/friends. I saw a workers name in bracket in Tasmania and wondered why this was, perhaps this explains it! I don't know if that is the worker in question or not, as I haven't seen any lists. It was what some of the friends from there had mentioned to me. The worker in question was actually reported to WINGS some time in the past, and he had also been reported to the overseer in the past I believe. It is an interesting situation at the moment. As always, WINGS cooperates with the authorities when contacted. WINGS does not report what we are sent, but if contacted by the authorities will cooperate with any investigation. Scott
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2010 8:38:52 GMT -5
Lin, do you think ALL workers are CSA perpetrators? I'm pretty sure its only a minority. However, if workers close ranks and protect their errant fellow workers they share the guilt. IMO there is no need for CSA perps in the work. That's an "if" that will not be legally or otherwise settled on this board. Since it will never be proven beyond all doubt it becomes a perpetual speculative criticism. I don't see what gain there is in getting locked into those kinds of speculative hypotheticals. Criticising hypotheticals is a bottomless pit. Better to be an intercessor than an accuser of speculative hypotheticals, better to offer education, encouragement, and move forward in a positive way. Click -> WINGS (Web site by a group of exes and friends.) Click -> darkness2light.org (highly recommended by a worker) Click -> ministrysafe.com (many workers have taken this training) Click -> childluresprevention.com Click -> childwelfare.gov Click -> False accusers get sued for 25 million. Click -> Excerpt of a letter written by a young Sister Worker to Tharold Sylvester
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jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Aug 12, 2010 8:55:48 GMT -5
[/quote]
Scott, Going by what you are saying re: another woker is under investigation, this is going from bad to worse for Vic/Tas workers/friends. I saw a workers name in bracket in Tasmania and wondered why this was, perhaps this explains it![/quote]
No this does not explain it. The worker in brackets had temporary ill health and it was unclear how long it would be until he could take an active role. I don't believe he is the other individual in question and he has returned to an active role in the ministry
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jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Aug 12, 2010 9:01:33 GMT -5
aus1 you need to be careful about who you implicate in this matter by making such assumptions. This is how incredibly hurtful gossip starts about innocent individuals.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 9:28:42 GMT -5
aus1 you need to be careful about who you implicate in this matter by making such assumptions. This is how incredibly hurtful gossip starts about innocent individuals. typical action for here. it's called hypothetical hysteria.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 10:02:57 GMT -5
aus1 you need to be careful about who you implicate in this matter by making such assumptions. This is how incredibly hurtful gossip starts about innocent individuals. I agree. This points out another problem that comes up when there is an 'issue' with a worker. If the overseers are secretive and give out misleading information, then rumors tend to run wild. When they are open and honest with dealing with a worker issue, then there are NO rumors, and because people know what is going on they tend to accept things as they are and no problems occur. If you don't take out your dirty laundry, it isn't ever going to get clean..... Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 10:21:04 GMT -5
If there is an issue with a worker it, is his or her own responsibility to come clean. That is known as integrity. Those that accuse him or her should confront with evidence. It is an open lack of honesty when it is required for the overseer to be involved.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 10:42:01 GMT -5
If there is an issue with a worker it, is his or her own responsibility to come clean. That is known as integrity. Those that accuse him or her should confront with evidence. It is an open lack of honesty when it is required for the overseer to be involved. So.... You are saying that without any involvement by the overseer (or anyone else), an individual should go to the worker, accuse them, and then accept whatever that worker decides is right to do? Lets say that a father confronts an individual about how his daughter was molested by him, and the individual denies it. Is that the end of the issue in your mind? Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 11:29:46 GMT -5
No I said with evidence. Not just an accusation. If then he denies it, take the evidence to the authorities,and let them investigate. Then there is no room for cover up by anybody. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's. If a law is broken, it is a criminal act and is not under a church authority.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 11:37:09 GMT -5
No I said with evidence. Not just an accusation. If then he denies it take the evidence to the authorities,and let them investigate. Then there is no room for cover up by anybody. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's. What would you consider to be evidence that could be used? I'm not trying to take issue with what you are saying, but trying to clarify what your meaning is. I DO agree that this is something that should go to the authorities before the overseer, however the overseer should be made aware of the allegations. If someone has come forward with an allegation of CSA, it would be only correct for the overseer to then make sure that the worker is placed in a position that protects both him (or her) and those that they may be staying with. Incidentally, this is how it was handled in the case being discussed. The workers were removed from their positions as the issue is looked into. (I agree that anything that is a legal matter should be taken care of by the authorities and not the workers as you are saying) Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 11:42:37 GMT -5
I agree the overseer should be aware and it should be the accusers that make him aware,but all ability to cover up or excuse should be removed.
In this case say by fluke all evidence and possible charges are dismissed. Should this person be allowed back in the work?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 12, 2010 11:50:22 GMT -5
make sure that the worker is placed in a position that protects both him (or her) and those that they may be staying with.
You mention those that they may be staying with. I feel this is some of the problem. Workers are inclined to frequent some homes more than others. Some for a long length of time . This can breed familiarity that can be conducive to such happenings. I would like to see workers moving out and getting an apartment and work among the masses.I think you would see less of these type of situations.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 11:58:56 GMT -5
I agree the overseer should be aware and it should be the accusers that make him aware,but all ability to cover up or excuse should be removed.I agree. That is what happened in this case. After WINGS was asked to help, we simply put the people in contact with the workers that could help the professing folks. There should be no way to cover up or minimize what has happened in that case. In this case say by fluke all evidence and possible charges are dismissed. Should this person be allowed back in the work?In the case of the one worker, he has admitted to the offense(s), so I really doubt that there would be a chance for him to return to worker status. In other instances, if a worker is accused, investigated and no wrong-doing found, then I see no reason for them to be removed from the work. That would certainly be up to the church to decide on a case by case basis I would think. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 12, 2010 12:04:57 GMT -5
make sure that the worker is placed in a position that protects both him (or her) and those that they may be staying with. You mention those that they may be staying with. I feel this is some of the problem. Workers are inclined to frequent some homes more than others. Some for a long length of time . This can breed familiarity that can be conducive to such happenings. I would like to see workers moving out and getting an apartment and work among the masses.I think you would see less of these type of situations. I agree that the workers would be better off having their own apartment in the area that they are assigned. It would be no more expensive to take care of their needs than if they stayed with different people. This would not mean that they shouldn't stay with people as they travel outside of their area of course. I can see LOTS of benefits for everyone if this were to be done. It would be a lot easier to invite the workers over for dinner than to have them stay and use up all of your toilet paper...... I would think that it would get them to visit with more people actually, as they would be able to hang out for dinner and a couple of beers and go back to their own place afterward. People would be more apt to invite a crabby old worker over for a meal than to have them hang around searching their closets for the hidden TV..... Scott
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Post by sharonw on Aug 12, 2010 14:09:28 GMT -5
That's a weird question to ask of me...I'm all for the workers stepping up to the plate and doing what is morally and legallhy correct just like I'm guided to do as a health professional! I don't think it's a strange question. you seem the most vocal in criticizing workers. Is it fair to criticize when in most cases knowledge of the crime isn't made known for 20,30 ,40 years.That in itselfi strange. Could it be it is now being made popular to tell. Just wondering. I don't know what you're talking about, Lin...some of the CSA issues were KNOWN ABOUT when they happened and that is what most of us are really steamed about.....the workers in power just shifted the perpatrators from one place to another with the promise to the victims and their significant others that they wouldn't have to worry about a repeat from the worker that did the crime, but that just opened up the way for someone else to be a victim. I cannot for the life of me understand why you do not understand that by now,Lin! Now I am NOT saying that is the case with the Tas issues, but it has been the case with more then one in the US. So yes, the crime WAS KNOWN about by workers in authority positions within a decent amount of time in connection with the crime when it happened.
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