Attention Tasmanian/Victorian friends!

[Scott Ross]

ronhall:

Are you suggesting that adding policeman responsibilities to the workers will somehow make things any better? Even without direct ties to the local police establishment, workers tend to be viewed by the friends as someone who is watching to make sure they have all their t's crossed and i's dotted with adverse comments on hair length, attire, etc.

In most places it isn't a matter of 'adding policeman responsibilities', but rather simply following the law in regard to being a mandated reporter. By NOT reporting, the workers are actually breaking the law in areas where they are mandated reporters.

Lin:

I would think it would be the parents job to go to the authorities.

In the example above, it was the parents/relatives that were the abusers. I doubt if they are going to turn themselves in. This is where the workers as mandated reporters need to contact the authorities as required by law.

Scott

[sharonw]

Aug 10, 2010 8:45:39 GMT -5 ronhall said:

Aug 10, 2010 7:16:27 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Again, this is where the workers taking full responsibility to help eradicate such horrible practices OUT OF THE FELLOWSHIP, can be fully cognizant of these things going on in the homes of the friends and be fully aware that the children are being abused by their parents/ or other family members. Then the worker goes to the authorities pronto and tells them what they have seen or have heard and then the authorities can investigate it and sift out the real facts within the homelife. And yes, this could go the other way and workers get into it with someone and break up a healthy family unit by false allegations...BUT we're going to give the workers the space to be honorable and honest people!

So, are the workers going to be issued uniforms and badges?

Are you suggesting that adding policeman responsibilities to the workers will somehow make things any better? Even without direct ties to the local police establishment, workers tend to be viewed by the friends as someone who is watching to make sure they have all their t's crossed and i's dotted with adverse comments on hair length, attire, etc.

No, I'm not suggesting anything...the fact of the matter is IF the workers are educated as to what they should do when a CSA allegations or suspicion is within their scope of practice OR their field, then IF it is something they see within a home then they're under obligation to report that to the authorities as much as they're under obligation to report CSA allegations about their peers...wouldn't they be?

[JO]

Aug 10, 2010 6:27:27 GMT -5 Linford Bledsoe said:

landdownunder wrote
What is important is that we draw the line that CSA is completely unacceptable in a Christian ministry.

CSA is unacceptable anywhere. I don't think we should just concentrate on the workers. Some of the worst cases have been from parents,which is much easier to cover up. The hardest part of conquering this problem anywhere is the delay of reporting.

If you believe CSA is unacceptable anywhere, then why not concentrate on the workers first?

Should we not expect some moral leadership from the ministry?

Fear of false accusations contributes to the delay of reporting.

A CSA victim can hardly believe its happening to them, let alone try to convince others.

Part of the problem is the "children should be seen and not heard" mindset along with the concept of women submitting to men and believers submitting to those above them in the church hierarchy.

We need a culture of accountability from the greatest to the least.

[Deleted]

Seems that Judaism itself has a CSA problem, according to the Jerusalem Post.
Where will it all end?

As I see it, some faiths have a difficult time with this issue.

Christianity is not Nazism. In some of its forms

it:

focuses upon the private confession
emphasizes the importance of forgiveness
believes in the growth of the individual
stresses love of children and the childlike quality
has intimate contact with children
seeks to protect its reputation
stresses celibacy to Christ

etc
etc

All this can create marvelous institutions, when it works properly. But the very qualities it seeks to promote can create this terrible blind spot.

[Scott Ross]

All this can create marvelous institutions, when it works properly. But the very qualities it seeks to promote can create this terrible blind spot.

Very true Bert. Any ideas on how it should be addressed? Those Christian qualities you listed can create an atmosphere that leads to covering up issues that happen. (when they are used inappropriately)

I have heard of people who are told they must forgive the one who wronged them, and then because they brought it up in the first place they are then told they can't take part in meetings since they created discord.... go figure huh?

Incidentally, I've noticed a change in you regarding this. I'm not sure if it is because the issue discussed here is kind of close to home for you, or if you decided that this is an issue that should be discussed and dealt with openly and honestly.

Trying to pretend that this is something that just happens in 'worldly churches' sure hasn't helped out the credibility of the workers that covered these issues up. I know of a few overseers that have very little credibility and trust by people in a few different places around. They are no longer trusted to care for the well being of the professing folks in their area.

If issues are dealt with as soon as they come up in an open and honest manner, the church in that area will feel the pain, heal up and be stronger for the experience. I have never heard of anyone leaving meetings when the overseers take immediate action, but I know of several that have left (including extended families) because of cover-ups and denial of the problem.

Minimizing the problems and acting like it is all in the past and no big deal just keeps the hurt going, and the church never has a chance to heal. The overseers involved there in Tas/Vic have a great opportunity to show just how serious they are in taking care of the problems that they are aware of. It isn't easy to do, but the rewards are many.

Scott

[sharonw]

Aug 10, 2010 18:05:36 GMT -5 Scott Ross said:

All this can create marvelous institutions, when it works properly. But the very qualities it seeks to promote can create this terrible blind spot.

Very true Bert. Any ideas on how it should be addressed? Those Christian qualities you listed can create an atmosphere that leads to covering up issues that happen. (when they are used inappropriately)

I have heard of people who are told they must forgive the one who wronged them, and then because they brought it up in the first place they are then told they can't take part in meetings since they created discord.... go figure huh?

Incidentally, I've noticed a change in you regarding this. I'm not sure if it is because the issue discussed here is kind of close to home for you, or if you decided that this is an issue that should be discussed and dealt with openly and honestly.

Trying to pretend that this is something that just happens in 'worldly churches' sure hasn't helped out the credibility of the workers that covered these issues up. I know of a few overseers that have very little credibility and trust by people in a few different places around. They are no longer trusted to care for the well being of the professing folks in their area.

If issues are dealt with as soon as they come up in an open and honest manner, the church in that area will feel the pain, heal up and be stronger for the experience. I have never heard of anyone leaving meetings when the overseers take immediate action, but I know of several that have left (including extended families) because of cover-ups and denial of the problem.

Minimizing the problems and acting like it is all in the past and no big deal just keeps the hurt going, and the church never has a chance to heal. The overseers involved there in Tas/Vic have a great opportunity to show just how serious they are in taking care of the problems that they are aware of. It isn't easy to do, but the rewards are many.

Scott

This bears repeating!~

[spiders]

I have heard a rumor that the meetings to be held in Hobart on the 15th August have been cancelled. I don't why and also if they will be rescheduled.

Can anyone verify this? What about you Ian, as the meeting was to be held at your relatives house?

[Deleted]

There's no doubt about it, the celibate, single lifestyle of the workers, coupled with having lifelong same sex partners, the unique domestic character of their living arrangements amongst the friends, along with the high level of trust afforded them, is an unhealthy and unwise mix. It throws denial, craving, opportunity and temptation all into the same cauldron, which for the weak produces a brew of homosexuality, lesbianism and CSA, as well as other problems.

I cannot imagine that the arrangements of the travelling preachers today is the same as those of 2000 years ago. There's something not being properly understood. The Lord prayed "Lead us not into temptation," but that is exactly what is happening with the current arrangements. Until this is addressed and properly managed, the problems will continue.

[spiders]

Aug 11, 2010 2:11:40 GMT -5 @ram said:

There's no doubt about it, the celibate, single lifestyle of the workers, coupled with having lifelong same sex partners, the unique domestic character of their living arrangements amongst the friends, along with the high level of trust afforded them, is an unhealthy and unwise mix. It throws denial, craving, opportunity and temptation all into the same cauldron, which for the weak produces a brew of homosexuality, lesbianism and CSA, as well as other problems.

I cannot imagine that the arrangements of the travelling preachers today is the same as those of 2000 years ago. There's something not being properly understood. The Lord prayed "Lead us not into temptation," but that is exactly what is happening with the current arrangements. Until this is addressed and properly managed, the problems will continue.

Very well put Ram! I couldn't agree more. We are seeing the results of this lifestyle now and the sad thing is that many innocent people end up mental wrecks.

[Deleted]

Yes Spiders and without making any attempts to excuse any worker for any individual behaviour, we must recognise too that they have been beguiled into thinking the whole set up is the right thing and are victims of Irvine's halucinations just like the rest of us and probably moreso!

[Ju]

The comments in regard to the reporting of CSA are interesting and I think a worker has a moral responsibity to report child abuse how ever at this stage in Vic toria and Tasmania they do not have a legal one as they are not under the categories required by law to report. In Australia this does vary from state to state, however police, school teachers, medical staff are generally all legislated australia wide for mandatory reporting. South Australia specifically listed volunteers and paid personal in religous organisations as being required to mandatory report.
I agree that this is a great opportunity forVic/TAs folk to step up to the plate and address this issue and I believe it should be pushed not only by the workers and overseas but also all of the people within the fellowship. My thoughts and prayers are with those directly effected by the individual in this case and also with the many people who afre indirectly effected as they wonder how this could have happened in their very midst. It takes courage to stand up and face these issues and we should give thanks for the women who have been willing to do so. Their honesty and courage may protect other young people in the fellow ship today and I would hope raise an awareness amongst parents of the need to be honest and open with their children.

[Deleted]

Irrespective of the legal position, the workers have both a moral and a civic duty to report CSA matters where reasonable suspicion is aroused. If they are unsure about matter which comes to their attention then they should report it for proper investigation.

Of course, these standards apply to any sensible adult, not just workers.

[landdownunder]

Aug 11, 2010 2:55:31 GMT -5 Ju said:

The comments in regard to the reporting of CSA are interesting and I think a worker has a moral responsibity to report child abuse how ever at this stage in Vic toria and Tasmania they do not have a legal one as they are not under the categories required by law to report. In Australia this does vary from state to state, however police, school teachers, medical staff are generally all legislated australia wide for mandatory reporting. South Australia specifically listed volunteers and paid personal in religous organisations as being required to mandatory report.
I agree that this is a great opportunity forVic/TAs folk to step up to the plate and address this issue and I believe it should be pushed not only by the workers and overseas but also all of the people within the fellowship. My thoughts and prayers are with those directly effected by the individual in this case and also with the many people who afre indirectly effected as they wonder how this could have happened in their very midst. It takes courage to stand up and face these issues and we should give thanks for the women who have been willing to do so. Their honesty and courage may protect other young people in the fellow ship today and I would hope raise an awareness amongst parents of the need to be honest and open with their children.

Excellent post, thanks for all that info ju. Ram don't you ever sleep? Are you a closset Aussie? The thing is, some workers think they ARE the law or at least a higher authority, so they unlike us don't always feel the need to report to civil authorities.

[Deleted]

ld, I'm a lost sheep without a shepherd. I have no place to lay my head, unlike foxes and birds. I just have too much time on my hands at the moment. Soon be preoccupied with other things though. Also, I've been robbed of my cause, i.e. supporting Bert in his time of need. So yeah, maybe I'll be going back in the closset?

The thing is, some workers think they ARE the law or at least a higher authority, so they unlike us don't always feel the need to report to civil authorities.

Yes, I've seen that too. However, I think there is also a touch of the blacksmith about these ones, rather than guardians of the flock?

[shushy]

This is being spoken about on the internet. It is probably only a matter of time before it goes public.

[spiders]

[quote author=landdownunder board=general thread=16322 post=355421 time=1281515874

[/quote]

Excellent post, thanks for all that info ju. Ram don't you ever sleep? Are you a closset Aussie? The thing is, some workers think they ARE the law or at least a higher authority, so they unlike us don't always feel the need to report to civil authorities.

[/quote]

I think their primary focus is to try and shield the "one true way" from the scandal of CSA and other abuse, so the friends think it is all pure and holy. The systematic cover up of CSA by the workers is sickening and needs to be exposed

[Deleted]

The trouble is that anything which brings the way down to the level of other churches takes that special "one true wayness" out of it and then it is open to all sorts of questioning. The workers are 100% dependent upon the way as it is, or the people in the way. Once the one true way becomes questioned, the workers' survival is threatened. Serving God can so easily conflict with serving oneself, especially for older workers who have no means of support outwith the system.

[sharonw]

OOPS, one has to wonder IF the c ancellation of the Tas mtg. is related to the overseers' mtg. in Ill.? Are they trying to all get their outlook and behaviour of this issue alike? Do they think that will make them more credible? I suppose if they actually do do the things which are moral and legal and all are togethert, then yes, that will make them more credible. But IF they're trying to get all on the same page just to continue to make the sect look good then something is not right!

[landdownunder]

Aug 11, 2010 5:59:26 GMT -5 sharonw said:

OOPS, one has to wonder IF the c ancellation of the Tas mtg. is related to the overseers' mtg. in Ill.? Are they trying to all get their outlook and behaviour of this issue alike?

C'mon Sharon. Us align with America? You jest. Surely you understand that within the "one right way", we down here are the purest (OK slightly tarnished) One Supremely Right Branch of that way. We would never align with or take orders from, anything American.

On this, I'm happy to support our workers to the hilt!

[landdownunder]

Aug 11, 2010 3:48:01 GMT -5 @ram said:

ld, I'm a lost sheep without a shepherd. I have no place to lay my head, unlike foxes and birds. I just have too much time on my hands at the moment. Soon be preoccupied with other things though. Also, I've been robbed of my cause, i.e. supporting Bert in his time of need. So yeah, maybe I'll be going back in the closset?

Ram don't vanish on us, I like you. We're not all Bert's down here (OK most of us are Bruce's however - Monty Python as you ask). If you need a shepherd, I'm available. Call me Bruce!

[Linford Bledsoe]

Aug 10, 2010 23:22:46 GMT -5 spiders said:

I have heard a rumor that the meetings to be held in Hobart on the 15th August have been cancelled. I don't why and also if they will be rescheduled.

Can anyone verify this? What about you Ian, as the meeting was to be held at your relatives house?

The facts are becoming rumors?

[Deleted]

SCOTT

I have heard of people who are told they must forgive the one who wronged them, and then because they brought it up in the first place they are then told they can't take part in meetings since they created discord.... go figure huh?

Never heard THAT one, but then, I hear lots of things about Workers on the internet which stretch one's credulity.

Incidentally, I've noticed a change in you regarding this. I'm not sure if it is because the issue discussed here is kind of close to home for you, or if you decided that this is an issue that should be discussed and dealt with openly and honestly.

I know of two CSA figures in the meeting now. First one was in the 1970's. I like to make a distinction between a specific CSA issue and generic Worker Bashing. Sometimes these get badly meshed.

Trying to pretend that this is something that just happens in 'worldly churches' sure hasn't helped out the credibility of the workers that covered these issues up. I know of a few overseers that have very little credibility and trust by people in a few different places around. They are no longer trusted to care for the well being of the professing folks in their area.

At my first convention I left valuables lying around. I was warned not to do that. I thought, "Why not? These are God's people? Don't you trust them? Who can you trust if not God's people?"
But the Workers speak a lot on these things. At least once per mission meeting we are reminded that because we believe we are of Israel doesn't mean we really are.

If issues are dealt with as soon as they come up in an open and honest manner, the church in that area will feel the pain, heal up and be stronger for the experience. I have never heard of anyone leaving meetings when the overseers take immediate action, but I know of several that have left (including extended families) because of cover-ups and denial of the problem.

True, true. Its where we draw the lines with addressing issues squarely, and doing it in a humane and scriptural manner that causes the angst. Jesus didn't help by hiding Judas' role in thieving and betrayal, did He?

Minimizing the problems and acting like it is all in the past and no big deal just keeps the hurt going, and the church never has a chance to heal. The overseers involved there in Tas/Vic have a great opportunity to show just how serious they are in taking care of the problems that they are aware of. It isn't easy to do, but the rewards are many.

What I find offensive in this Tasmania case is the lack of leadership. Who knew about all this?

[Scott Ross]

Hey Bert!

I have heard of people who are told they must forgive the one who wronged them, and then because they brought it up in the first place they are then told they can't take part in meetings since they created discord.... go figure huh?

Never heard THAT one, but then, I hear lots of things about Workers on the internet which stretch one's credulity.

I have actually heard of that happening in at least 3 cases. One within just the last couple of months in regard to an overseer in a nearby state.


I know of two CSA figures in the meeting now. First one was in the 1970's. I like to make a distinction between a specific CSA issue and generic Worker Bashing. Sometimes these get badly meshed.

I agree that when a specific CSA issue is discussed that there are quite a few that seem to turn it into a general worker bashing opportunity. I don't like that any more than you do I would bet. It detracts from the focus of taking care of a specific issue, and it also tends to negate the good that some of the overseers are doing in dealing with this. I am all for pointing out when overseers take care of these problems. (as I am all for pointing out when they don't)

Also, these are professing women coming forward, and they aren't worker-bashing. They are asking for action concerning a specific individual.


At my first convention I left valuables lying around. I was warned not to do that. I thought, "Why not? These are God's people? Don't you trust them? Who can you trust if not God's people?"
But the Workers speak a lot on these things. At least once per mission meeting we are reminded that because we believe we are of Israel doesn't mean we really are.

I agree. It is well known that there are the same weaknesses in all of us regardless of the church we attend. The church doesn't remove sin or temptations.

True, true. Its where we draw the lines with addressing issues squarely, and doing it in a humane and scriptural manner that causes the angst. Jesus didn't help by hiding Judas' role in thieving and betrayal, did He?

That is correct. There are scriptural guidelines that should be followed. Confronting the accused, notifying the church and obeying the laws of the land. If these are followed then the issues can be dealt with as they come up, the church heals and continues on stronger than before.

One thing that tends to be forgotten is that it is also the way that the offender needs to get right with God by admitting and repenting of his actions.

Minimizing the problems and acting like it is all in the past and no big deal just keeps the hurt going, and the church never has a chance to heal. The overseers involved there in Tas/Vic have a great opportunity to show just how serious they are in taking care of the problems that they are aware of. It isn't easy to do, but the rewards are many.

What I find offensive in this Tasmania case is the lack of leadership. Who knew about all this?

Well.... the victims for sure, and now they have come forward and the overseers and others know.

There are other issues that are being looked into that have been known about and covered up however.. Another worker is currently not listed as having a companion at the moment, and I believe that the authorities are starting an investigation concerning him. It is one more item that the overseers are dealing with at the moment.

It really can't be emphasized enough that when these types of issues come to light, dealing with them immediately, decisively, legally and scripturally will take care of a lot of problems that occur by trying to minimize the issue.

Thanks for your thoughts Bert!

I think it is important for the professing folks from your area of the world to give their thoughts on this matter. Workers are reading here from that area, and when they understand that the church members not only want this dealt with, but also that they EXPECT it to be dealt with then it will probably get done.

Scott

[sharonw]

Aug 11, 2010 6:43:05 GMT -5 landdownunder said:

Aug 11, 2010 5:59:26 GMT -5 sharonw said:

OOPS, one has to wonder IF the c ancellation of the Tas mtg. is related to the overseers' mtg. in Ill.? Are they trying to all get their outlook and behaviour of this issue alike?

C'mon Sharon. Us align with America? You jest. Surely you understand that within the "one right way", we down here are the purest (OK slightly tarnished) One Supremely Right Branch of that way. We would never align with or take orders from, anything American.

On this, I'm happy to support our workers to the hilt!

If Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever then the "Jesus church" should ALL be the same.

After thinking about it, I think IF all the workers worldwide get together and learn, understand just what CSA is and how it needs to be handled so that the victims are able to heal, the perpatrators are removed from the arena where children should have free reign.....yes, I couldn't blame them for all wanting to get it together!

[sharonw]

Aug 11, 2010 3:48:01 GMT -5 @ram said:

ld, I'm a lost sheep without a shepherd. I have no place to lay my head, unlike foxes and birds. I just have too much time on my hands at the moment. Soon be preoccupied with other things though. Also, I've been robbed of my cause, i.e. supporting Bert in his time of need. So yeah, maybe I'll be going back in the closset?

The thing is, some workers think they ARE the law or at least a higher authority, so they unlike us don't always feel the need to report to civil authorities.

Yes, I've seen that too. However, I think there is also a touch of the blacksmith about these ones, rather than guardians of the flock?

Pardon me, but what do you mean a touch of the blacksmith! My husband was a blacksmith and a very honest businessman, besides b eing popular!

[sharonw]

I think the poor workers are having to realize just how many members of the fellowship that have been lost to them because of the CSA issue and the habit of the workers covering it up in the past and kept putting the perpatrator back out there where more victims were offended. As someone said, it really is hard for some of us to wrap our brains and hearts around the fact that the older workers just did NOT understand the permanent harm done to the victims, their focus was on re-establishing the perpatrator as an honorable worker! As many of the older workers there were, it really is extremely difficult for me to believe that they were all this unknowing! Part of this is from the experience in me trying to speak with some of the older workers about these issues and I was clearly and purely told they did NOT want to hear these things about their peers! But I do know that there are workers who have very tender hearts and consciences that will get the right know-how to do that which is morally right and legally correct! I'm praying for those workers every day, I understand that handling things of long years past is nearly impossible to completely get things right! So may the good Lord help them as they put forth the effort to change the old ways of doing!

[Deleted]

Aug 11, 2010 12:39:15 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Aug 11, 2010 3:48:01 GMT -5 @ram said:

ld, I'm a lost sheep without a shepherd. I have no place to lay my head, unlike foxes and birds. I just have too much time on my hands at the moment. Soon be preoccupied with other things though. Also, I've been robbed of my cause, i.e. supporting Bert in his time of need. So yeah, maybe I'll be going back in the closset?

The thing is, some workers think they ARE the law or at least a higher authority, so they unlike us don't always feel the need to report to civil authorities.

Yes, I've seen that too. However, I think there is also a touch of the blacksmith about these ones, rather than guardians of the flock?

Pardon me, but what do you mean a touch of the blacksmith! My husband was a blacksmith and a very honest businessman, besides b eing popular!

It's my humour again Shaz. Rather than face up to responsibilities, they "make a bolt for the door!"

Nothing against blacksmiths.

[sharonw]

Aug 11, 2010 13:10:05 GMT -5 @ram said:

Aug 11, 2010 12:39:15 GMT -5 sharonw said:

Pardon me, but what do you mean a touch of the blacksmith! My husband was a blacksmith and a very honest businessman, besides b eing popular!

It's my humour again Shaz. Rather than face up to responsibilities, they "make a bolt for the door!"

Nothing against blacksmiths.

ahhhh!