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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2010 10:28:33 GMT -5
... Seems like to me that if there is anyone who has daughters that were around the man should try and get them to tell IF there was anything unseemly, would it? I may be wrong, but I believe this is one way that false allegations happen. AND may provide grounds for charges of coercion by the defendant.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 11:59:32 GMT -5
ATTENTION! There is to be a special "union meeting" held in Hobart on Sunday morning August 15 followed by a gospel meeting. WINGS trusts the purpose is to advise the surrounding meetings of some changes in the 2010 workers list and reasons behind these changes. Considering the serious and criminal nature of the matters involved, it is essential for all who may be concerned to attend this meeting. WINGS commends the workers who are taking this meeting for openly addressing this particular issue in Tasmania and Victoria in a legally correct manner. Please note that if you are aware or learn of any inappropriate sexual behaviour involving children, you should immediately call your local authorities. www.wingsfortruth.info/who%20knows%20the%20secret-1.htm www.wingsfortruth.info/bill%20glaser.pdf WINGS trusts the purpose is to advise the surrounding meetings of some changes in the 2010 workers list and reasons behind these changes. Considering the serious and criminal nature of the matters involved, it is essential for all who may be concerned to attend this meeting. Is this in the invitation message? Or a leading statement.WINGS commends the workers who are taking this meeting for openly addressing this particular issue in Tasmania and Victoria in a legally correct manner. Is this fact or supposition?
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Post by sharonw on Aug 9, 2010 13:57:28 GMT -5
... Seems like to me that if there is anyone who has daughters that were around the man should try and get them to tell IF there was anything unseemly, would it? I may be wrong, but I believe this is one way that false allegations happen. AND may provide grounds for charges of coercion by the defendant. Emy, most parents, guardians know not to "suggest" anything but then there has to be ways of opening up the children esp. those too young to know what to say....i.e. this link posted already! www.wingsfortruth.info/howtotalktochildren.pdf
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2010 14:01:13 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I believe this is one way that false allegations happen. AND may provide grounds for charges of coercion by the defendant. Emy, most parents, guardians know not to "suggest" anything but then there has to be ways of opening up the children esp. those too young to know what to say....i.e. this link posted already! www.wingsfortruth.info/howtotalktochildren.pdfI read the link. It dealt mostly with prevention rather than post-episode intervention. I think you are mistaken in thinking that "most parents" know anything at all about dealing with a possible molestation.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 14:15:36 GMT -5
ATTENTION! There is to be a special "union meeting" held in Hobart on Sunday morning August 15 followed by a gospel meeting. WINGS trusts the purpose is to advise the surrounding meetings of some changes in the 2010 workers list and reasons behind these changes. Considering the serious and criminal nature of the matters involved, it is essential for all who may be concerned to attend this meeting. WINGS commends the workers who are taking this meeting for openly addressing this particular issue in Tasmania and Victoria in a legally correct manner. Please note that if you are aware or learn of any inappropriate sexual behaviour involving children, you should immediately call your local authorities. www.wingsfortruth.info/who%20knows%20the%20secret-1.htm www.wingsfortruth.info/bill%20glaser.pdf WINGS trusts the purpose is to advise the surrounding meetings of some changes in the 2010 workers list and reasons behind these changes. Considering the serious and criminal nature of the matters involved, it is essential for all who may be concerned to attend this meeting. Is this in the invitation message? Or a leading statement.WINGS commends the workers who are taking this meeting for openly addressing this particular issue in Tasmania and Victoria in a legally correct manner. Is this fact or supposition? WINGS trusts the purpose is to advise.........I haven't heard of any invitation message Lin. WINGS has no reason to think that the workers would do anything but use this meeting to openly and honestly deal with this issue. Since being notified about this, the head workers involved have taken action which has been well received by those that have heard about it. Unfortunately, some of the workers have not been real open with those they have been staying with. Here are some of the comments that I have received from professing folks over there: This is why there won't be any genuine disclosure of facts in Hobart. They will only do what they are forced to do. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
There is a groundswell of women (mothers and victims and friends of victims) who are getting very angry.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
It is looking very likely that there will be police investigation before long, this is just far too much of a culture amongst a group who seem to have known and been covering for each other. I suspect what is known is just a fraction of the reality. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
More will be revealed shortly involving other senior workers (plural) in the work in Vic. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Great damage will be done if they don't tackle the xxxxx case and the others, openly xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
People here are reporting visits by workers who are telling them nothing. It seems the issue isn't raised unless people ask or are concerned. The visits seem designed to determine who might be worried and need special assuring, rather than to inform and correct misinformation. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxworkers aren't informing people in Vic/Tas of all the facts, and that this involves very serious criminal behaviour by a senior worker over many years.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx .......... any ministry that didn't support victims of CSA or didn't openly discharge their legal and moral obligations to their flock. What kind of shepherds would they be?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Those are some of the comments that I have received from professing folks over there. There is a great expectation that the Union Meeting is going to openly and honestly deal with this issue head-on without trying to minimize the issue. I've been gone for over a week, so haven't had a chance to look through all my emails yet, but it was mentioned that everyone that is in that area would hopefully attend this meeting to get answers to their questions and concerns. Some people are hoping that the letter on WINGS will also be distributed there, and that it will be getting sent to any who haven't already read it. I have also offered that if anybody from Vic/Tas would like, I can put them in touch with some ladies down there who can provide the facts and support for any victims who wish to come forward. My role would be simply to put these people in touch with one another. These are the professing folks that I have been emailing with who are trying to help get this issue dealt with so the church can get through all this and be able to heal and move forward. Scott
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Post by Rob Sargison on Aug 9, 2010 14:20:51 GMT -5
Thank God for WINGS.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 14:31:22 GMT -5
It is looking very likely that there will be police investigation before long, this is just far too much of a culture amongst a group who seem to have known and been covering for each other. I suspect what is known is just a fraction of the reality. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
What are they waiting for. If it's of this great of a magnitude why are people sitting on their hands?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 14:32:47 GMT -5
Emy, most parents, guardians know not to "suggest" anything but then there has to be ways of opening up the children esp. those too young to know what to say....i.e. this link posted already! www.wingsfortruth.info/howtotalktochildren.pdfI read the link. It dealt mostly with prevention rather than post-episode intervention. I think you are mistaken in thinking that "most parents" know anything at all about dealing with a possible molestation. Parents can ask their kids some fairly general questions. Then if they feel that there is something that needs clarification they should contact the authorities who are trained to talk with kids about these issues. In the situation we have been discussing, the authorities know about this. In fact, an officer has offered to speak with any of the victims who may wish to come forward even if they do not wish to press charges. I think that based on how this is handled in the Union Meeting and how the information is distributed will have an effect on how this may be investigated by the authorities. (That is just my thoughts based on what I have been told.) If the church openly notifies everyone about this individual and no one presses charges, then there might not be an official investigation. However, if it is NOT openly dealt with, then the authorities could be forced into questioning people to determine if there are any other victims who have not been informed. Like I mentioned earlier: WINGS has no reason to think that the workers would do anything but use this meeting to openly and honestly deal with this issue. Since being notified about this, the head workers involved have taken action which has been well received by those that have heard about it.This has been getting much the same international attention that was generated when a worker confessed to CSA here in Minnesota. Professing folks from all over the world have been reading here on the TMB to see how this is being handled. Here in Minnesota, the whole ordeal was over with in about 6 months and the church was able to heal and is stronger than it was before because of how it was handled openly, honestly and immediately. If you look at some of the other states where things were not dealt with openly, honestly and immediately, you'll find folks that have quit professing and others that have lost the trust they once had in their overseers and the workers in their field for not being open about problems or dealing with them. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 14:42:46 GMT -5
It is looking very likely that there will be police investigation before long, this is just far too much of a culture amongst a group who seem to have known and been covering for each other. I suspect what is known is just a fraction of the reality. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx W hat are they waiting for. If it's of this great of a magnitude why are people sitting on their hands?I think that in this situation without anyone wanting to press charges, the authorities are letting the church handle this, and the professing folks that are involved are waiting to see how the workers are going to deal with it. You need to remember, these are not a bunch of 'crazy exes' that have come forward to try and discredit the church, but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power. I think it is a really great thing that the professing folks who are aware of this are supporting the overseers (I guess they call them elders down there?) for their immediate actions in removing this worker from his position. I think that much rides on how this is going to be handled within the church. In fact, this is much like what some of the professing folks would prefer isn't it? To treat this as a church discipline matter without involving the authorities? Scott
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2010 14:53:43 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. You obviously have lots more insight to this than anyone here, but just a sideline from me...
In the USA, a Sunday morning union meeting would not be an informational meeting about CSA. The "gospel meeting" format would be a more likely venue. Any thoughts from WAY down under?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 15:10:26 GMT -5
I agree Emy I doubt very much this will be brought up in a Union Meeting. It's so easy to speculate. I noticed this statement "but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power. I think it is a really great thing that the professing folks who are aware of this are
Sounds like we have women usurping some authority. Why wouldn't they ask their husbands at home and let them look into it.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 15:23:27 GMT -5
I agree Emy I doubt very much this will be brought up in a Union Meeting. It's so easy to speculate. I noticed this statement "but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power. I think it is a really great thing that the professing folks who are aware of this are Sounds like we have women usurping some authority. Why wouldn't they ask their husbands at home and let them look into it. Guess I'm not following your line of thought there Lin. How is coming forward usurping the authority of the husband? Perhaps a better statement from me would have been something such as: These are professing ladies that have come forward to report to the workers and authorities. All those who now know about this are wanting the issue to be taken care of by the workers in power. Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 15:37:31 GMT -5
I'm only quoting your statement "but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power" I guess it's different in our house. My wife would make me aware of what she has heard, but would place the responsibility on me to see what should be done. Many times problems come because " professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of"
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 15:53:06 GMT -5
Many times problems come because " professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of" Now I see what you meant. That's hilarious actually!! Scott
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 9, 2010 15:53:07 GMT -5
I read the link. It dealt mostly with prevention rather than post-episode intervention. I think you are mistaken in thinking that "most parents" know anything at all about dealing with a possible molestation. Parents can ask their kids some fairly general questions. Then if they feel that there is something that needs clarification they should contact the authorities who are trained to talk with kids about these issues. Scott You are right about this Scott, what you've said matches what I've read on the subject. Plus what if the parents and/or relatives are the abusers? I wonder if most people realise parents and relatives are by far the largest statistical segment of abusers? If people don't like WINGS then they could type "CSA education and prevention" into their favorite search engine or click these links to educate themselves; Click -> darkness2light.org (highly recommended by a worker) Click -> ministrysafe.com (many workers have taken this training) Click -> childluresprevention.com Click -> childwelfare.gov Click -> False accusers get sued for 25 million. Click -> Excerpt of a letter written by a young Sister Worker to Tharold Sylvester
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 9, 2010 15:56:51 GMT -5
Many times problems come because " professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of" Now I see what you meant. That's hilarious actually!! Scott No it isn't!!
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2010 16:05:38 GMT -5
Sounds like we have women usurping some authority. Why wouldn't they ask their husbands at home and let them look into it. Guess I'm not following your line of thought there Lin. How is coming forward usurping the authority of the husband? Scott I think Lin's reference is to this: 1 Cor.14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.However, if these women are married, it's very possible that the discussion with husbands has already been done, and they are on the next step. Would it be better if the husband handled it? Maybe with the senior workers, but not according to most modern law. It does appear as though a group of women have chosen to exert some pressure on head workers. I don't see any problem with that IF they have the support of their husbands.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 16:06:49 GMT -5
My wife would make me aware of what she has heard, but would place the responsibility on me to see what should be done.The professing ladies I was referring to were relaying their personal experiences, and not 'what they had heard'. Most of those that I know of that have been worried about this issue are doing so as couples and not as individuals. Scott
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Post by ScholarGal on Aug 9, 2010 16:08:54 GMT -5
I'm only quoting your statement "but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power" I guess it's different in our house. My wife would make me aware of what she has heard, but would place the responsibility on me to see what should be done. Many times problems come because " professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of" I see your point. If your wife tells you she just heard about a situation where someone has been abused, I hope you know what to do next. Bear in mind that there are a lot more professing ladies than professing men. (This is based on my observations at meetings and conventions around the world during the past 10 years.) Given the imbalance of numbers, I am sure there are a lot of professing ladies who don't have husbands or fathers who can or will act for them. Personally, I wouldn't act (or demand action) on such an emotional issue without consulting my husband first. My husband knows that I can speak and express myself. His response is to help me analyze the situation, discuss the options, and then he advises me to do/say what I believe most appropriate given the situation.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 16:14:17 GMT -5
My karma will be shot but I stand by what I say. I have witnessed it many many times. If there is a real concern ,don't wait to see what the powers that be will do. If something is this critical and they have facts why send it to a site like wings? Don't they know how to take care of it there? I don't believe this is the only quarrel these ladies have with the powers that be.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 16:18:03 GMT -5
I'm only quoting your statement "but rather professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of by the workers in power" I guess it's different in our house. My wife would make me aware of what she has heard, but would place the responsibility on me to see what should be done. Many times problems come because " professing ladies who are wanting the issue taken care of" I see your point. If your wife tells you she just heard about a situation where someone has been abused, I hope you know what to do next. Bear in mind that there are a lot more professing ladies than professing men. (This is based on my observations at meetings and conventions around the world during the past 10 years.) Given the imbalance of numbers, I am sure there are a lot of professing ladies who don't have husbands or fathers who can or will act for them. Personally, I wouldn't act (or demand action) on such an emotional issue without consulting my husband first. My husband knows that I can speak and express myself. His response is to help me analyze the situation, discuss the options, and then he advises me to do/say what I believe most appropriate given the situation. If they aren't married couldn't they take it to their elder? I'm serious I've seen great harm done in just such a situation. I wonder how much these ladies have prayed about this situation? Do they think God can't see or is deaf. Just my feelings. I fear witch hunts.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 16:28:13 GMT -5
My karma will be shot but I stand by what I say. I have witnessed it many many times. If there is a real concern ,don't wait to see what the powers that be will do. If something is this critical and they have facts why send it to a site like wings? Don't they know how to take care of it there? I don't believe this is the only quarrel these ladies have with the powers that be. They brought it to WINGS to get the information. Incidentally, it was NOT the women that brought this to WINGS. They were husbands. They did not have issues with the workers. (other than the one that has now confessed about it) When contacted, it was for information on how to be put in contact with various workers. I contacted the workers asked about and put them in contact with the professing folks that contacted WINGS. Through that contact other overseers were contacted and got involved. No witch hunt. None of those actions had anything to do with WINGS. The workers themselves have been dealing with all of this. WINGS simply passed on information as requested. Scott
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Post by sharonw on Aug 9, 2010 16:35:01 GMT -5
Guess I'm not following your line of thought there Lin. How is coming forward usurping the authority of the husband? Scott I think Lin's reference is to this: 1 Cor.14:34 women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.However, if these women are married, it's very possible that the discussion with husbands has already been done, and they are on the next step. Would it be better if the husband handled it? Maybe with the senior workers, but not according to most modern law. It does appear as though a group of women have chosen to exert some pressure on head workers. I don't see any problem with that IF they have the support of their husbands. Actually since the ladies perhaps represent the victims, husbands need to support them as they seek to address the issue. One would think that some do not believe in women having any thing to do or say in the church! If that is the case, I'd have to ask, do these same people respect the sister workers?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 16:37:19 GMT -5
If they aren't married couldn't they take it to their elder? I'm serious I've seen great harm done in just such a situation. I wonder how much these ladies have prayed about this situation? Do they think God can't see or is deaf. Just my feelings. I fear witch hunts. Why would you think this is a witch hunt? That would imply that these women are trying to find guilt where there is none. You do realize that they read here, and by your posts you are once again making them a victim by not taking this as being a serious issue. Don't forget. This 'witch hunt' is concerning an individual that has confessed to the overseers, and that there are about 10 victims who have come forward. There is a lot of discussion going on among the friends about how the workers are going to handle all this. People who normally wouldn't get involved are discussing this together. This isn't just one age group either. The young folks that read here are talking about it, and it goes up to people in their 70's. It is actually a real good opportunity for the overseers there to show their church authority in cases such as this. By dealing with this openly and honestly with the friends they will be showing that they care for what happens in the church. If they can't take care of their own worker issues, they certainly will send the message that they aren't willing to take responsibility for protecting members of the church. Scott
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Post by sharonw on Aug 9, 2010 16:52:14 GMT -5
If they aren't married couldn't they take it to their elder? I'm serious I've seen great harm done in just such a situation. I wonder how much these ladies have prayed about this situation? Do they think God can't see or is deaf. Just my feelings. I fear witch hunts. Why would you think this is a witch hunt? That would imply that these women are trying to find guilt where there is none. You do realize that they read here, and by your posts you are once again making them a victim by not taking this as being a serious issue. Don't forget. This 'witch hunt' is concerning an individual that has confessed to the overseers, and that there are about 10 victims who have come forward. There is a lot of discussion going on among the friends about how the workers are going to handle all this. People who normally wouldn't get involved are discussing this together. This isn't just one age group either. The young folks that read here are talking about it, and it goes up to people in their 70's. It is actually a real good opportunity for the overseers there to show their church authority in cases such as this. By dealing with this openly and honestly with the friends they will be showing that they care for what happens in the church. If they can't take care of their own worker issues, they certainly will send the message that they aren't willing to take responsibility for protecting members of the church. Scott Very good points, Scott! I hate for the victims to be reading that someone thinks they're not bona fide in their complaints! Bless their hearts, they're trying to do this as Jesus has suggested and I'm praying that it happens that way....just so we all will know it CAN WORK THAT WAY! Thanks, Scott!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Aug 9, 2010 16:59:45 GMT -5
Actually since the ladies perhaps represent the victims, husbands need to support them as they seek to address the issue. One would think that some do not believe in women having any thing to do or say in the church! If that is the case, I'd have to ask, do these same people respect the sister workers? Women have effectively forced changes in many societies when men have been unwilling to step up. I'm glad they're doing this! To say that "it's not women's place" only reinforces power structures that have already proven hurtful.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 9, 2010 17:07:14 GMT -5
This is a discussion board. Who brought this discussion to the board?According to what I read, Wings. If the workers are taking care of this issue within,why is it here.It seems as long as the discussion goes along party lines,it's great. If not you pay. I appreciate anything that can be done to eradicate CSA. I don't think it will be done here.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 9, 2010 17:36:47 GMT -5
This is a discussion board. Who brought this discussion to the board?According to what I read, Wings. If the workers are taking care of this issue within,why is it here.It seems as long as the discussion goes along party lines,it's great. If not you pay. I appreciate anything that can be done to eradicate CSA. I don't think it will be done here. Actually, quite a bit has been done here. There have been several victims come forward because of what was posted here. People read and then pass the info on. The TMB is widely read by workers also. Some of them have contacted me to ask questions and get information that isn't on the board. Lots of stuff has gotten done to help eradicate CSA because of what is shared here on the TMB. Where else do you think that this should be discussed as openly as it has been here? Scott
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