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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 22:48:38 GMT -5
Sharon, Jesus' teaching was for individuals. He didn't set up a hierarchy therefore he didn't need to give instructions for how to manage a religious organization. Representatives of an organization tend to protect the organization at all costs as they see fit. Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. Right on JO I agree, it's a good description. Another way to look at it is like having an embarrassing relative. Some families just clam up about him/her and only speak of it within tight family circles but pretend to the world that all is well. Essentially, they don't want the embarrassment to rub off on the rest of the family. It's much the same thing within the fellowship.....no one wants the CSA offender make everyone else appear bad. The Only Way can't be allowed to be sullied by a CSA offender. As a result, children are being exposed to risk with unsuspecting and naively trusting parents when the CSA offenses are buried. |
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Post by Admin on Aug 24, 2010 23:02:07 GMT -5
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:44:09 GMT -5
I feel for those downunder WHO ARE trying their best to have it dealt with legally AND biblically! Doesn't seem Jesus' teachings for handling such things is going very far these days! Didn't happen in the US or hasn't so far..... Sharon, Jesus' teaching was for individuals. He didn't set up a hierarchy therefore he didn't need to give instructions for how to manage a religious organization. Representatives of an organization tend to protect the organization at all costs as they see fit. Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. Lah! Who in their right mind would call this CSA business a sleeping dog! I'm not believing the continued head in the sand on this....I think perhaps that the overseers and assistant overseers need to be imprisoned on covering up...then it might make the point that this IS A CRIME! AND THE BIBLE SAYS WE'RE TO OBEY THE LAWS OF THE LAND. Also doesn't it say somewhere that God has appointed the rulers and that they're appointed to uphold sound practices or something of that ink? |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:47:15 GMT -5
I would think all professing folks would expect accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with such an issue. I know, I would. I don't really believe that all workers are caused to come under scrutiny just because of the unsavory actions of the very few or to champion the cause of Scott to further his own end. Where there is accountability, honesty and openness, those responsible for doing the damage are quickly identified and effectively dealt with. However, when these virtues are not evident in the leadership, and the problem is allowed to go on and on, then the entire group becomes suspect. I can't see any reason to blame Scott or Wings. In fact, it is an embarrassment to me that these functions are being performed outside the camp, in effect, appearing to drag a reluctant leadership into accountability, honesty and openness. How can anyone in their right mind support this approach? Am I seeing this wrong? Ron, this is very well worded. I can imagine that the staunch professing folk are very irritated that it takes an outside force to deal with such a heinous crime among workers. If the kind of honesty, openness and accountability were in the meetings, I highly suspect that I would still be professing. Not to say that I am "outside" because I am "offended" or "bitter". It is just that the fruits that are so evident are not the fruits of truth. That means that the workers cannot be sowing truth. I cannot support untruths and we encouraged "outsiders" (from other religions who were disgruntled for the same problems the workers are facing) to come out of dishonesty and into the truth. I do not see the workers encouraging the friends to do the same. I do not see the workers encouraging "outsiders" to not be bitter with their congregation and to "not forsake the assembling of themselves together". I used to preach that we must look at the fruit of a religion and have heard the workers, groping for sermons, preach this same thought in so many different ways. Rather they quit groping sermons(and everything else), stop preaching and actually start living a life of truth and honesty. Just DOING the right thing would mean more than 1000 sermons from the most senior overseer visiting from a foreign field. Reminded me of a old, old poem that one of the friends in Nashville has set to music... "I'd Rather See A Sermon Anyday As To Hear One" |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:48:30 GMT -5
Sharon, Jesus' teaching was for individuals. He didn't set up a hierarchy therefore he didn't need to give instructions for how to manage a religious organization. Representatives of an organization tend to protect the organization at all costs as they see fit. Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. Right on JO Well, it seems reasonable to me that IF it works for individuals, then what is good for the gander is good for all of the geese!  |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:49:06 GMT -5
Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. I think that this sleeping dog is about to start barking..... Scott  Yea, the brass band has already rev'd up! |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 25, 2010 6:51:38 GMT -5
Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. I think that this sleeping dog is about to start barking..... Scott Yea, the brass band has already rev'd up! Same band as the Mich case. I think that band was out of tune. Result a lot of discords. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:51:57 GMT -5
I agree, it's a good description. Another way to look at it is like having an embarrassing relative. Some families just clam up about him/her and only speak of it within tight family circles but pretend to the world that all is well. Essentially, they don't want the embarrassment to rub off on the rest of the family. It's much the same thing within the fellowship.....no one wants the CSA offender make everyone else appear bad. The Only Way can't be allowed to be sullied by a CSA offender. As a result, children are being exposed to risk with unsuspecting and naively trusting parents when the CSA offenses are buried. This naivity of the fellowship's members has been the impetus that has allowed the corruption to become in it...and I was part of that once and I guess that is what irks me to the bottom of my soul! That at one time, I thought all the workers to be of the highest moral fiber, and then to find out that there's criminals in their midst PLUS the other workers covering that crime(s) up and continuing on with the blanket of innocency and sacrifice? How dumb can any of us be? |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:53:25 GMT -5
Jesus' hierarchy was this: God Jesus the angels the prophets and preachers those who obeyed the prophets and preachers and gave 100 fold those who obeyed the prophets and preachers and gave 50 fold those who obeyed the prophets and preachers and gave 30 fold those who disobeyed the prophets and preachers but never understood. those who disobeyed the prophets and preachers but once understood. the devil and his angels Jesus gave some instructions, and Paul and the apostles gave us instructions. It is possible that Jesus did give ALL instructions as the running of His church, but these are not recorded (recall, most things were not recorded.) Else, how would His Apostles have known? nb This is getting off-topic.  Woops! Bert, you left out the Holy Spirit in that Hierarchy....maybe that's the reason these things are and have gone on...the Holy Spirit has been left out of it all! |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 6:55:38 GMT -5
Yea, the brass band has already rev'd up! Same band as the Mich case. I think that band was out of tune. Result a lot of discords. Wouldn't have been any discords or barking dogs, if the proclaimed leadership had been on the right note to start with, Lin! If the conductor asks for a flourish and it's time to set down, then there'll be discord...or if he asks for an oboe and gets a flute, there'll be discord, etc. |
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Post by ronhall on Aug 25, 2010 7:21:04 GMT -5
It was referred to as a sleeping dog not because that was how the poster viewed it but by how it has been treated within the fellowship over many decades.
While that is sad, one must acknowledge that the fellowship just followed the norms of the rest of society in their handling of this type of thing.
I don't have a big problem with that, but I wonder why our fellowship isn't at the forefront of society in beginning to make corrections, not dragging its feet in responding to only the few allegations that get reported through some outside group like WINGS.
Here we are, conventions coming to a close, time to start Gospel meetings again in the various communities and hope there will be some serious interest. With all the benefits of living for Jesus in this fellowship, I would think that there would be a huge interest. But then I stop and consider what I would do if I were, say, a Lutheran and got invited to some meetings by a friend. I would likely ask the worker at the door while shaking hands for his group's internet site.
Well, you know how that would go. And you know whether or not I would go back to listen to another meeting after doing some research.
Hey! I do that after going to the doctor before I spend my money for whatever pill he prescribed. If there is an alternative that is safer, I'll put my money on that one. All I have to do is read the side effects and big pharma either wins or loses.
Why wouldn't I do that and more when my eternal salvation is at stake?
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 7:30:26 GMT -5
It was referred to as a sleeping dog not because that was how the poster viewed it but by how it has been treated within the fellowship over many decades. While that is sad, one must acknowledge that the fellowship just followed the norms of the rest of society in their handling of this type of thing. I don't have a big problem with that, but I wonder why our fellowship isn't at the forefront of society in beginning to make corrections, not dragging its feet in responding to only the few allegations that get reported through some outside group like WINGS. Here we are, conventions coming to a close, time to start Gospel meetings again in the various communities and hope there will be some serious interest. With all the benefits of living for Jesus in this fellowship, I would think that there would be a huge interest. But then I stop and consider what I would do if I were, say, a Lutheran and got invited to some meetings by a friend. I would likely ask the worker at the door while shaking hands for his group's internet site. Well, you know how that would go. And you know whether or not I would go back to listen to another meeting after doing some research. Hey! I do that after going to the doctor before I spend my money for whatever pill he prescribed. If there is an alternative that is safer, I'll put my money on that one. All I have to do is read the side effects and big pharma either wins or loses. Why wouldn't I do that and more when my eternal salvation is at stake? ronhall! I think you've perhaps named the prevailing spirit or attitude about any religion of today's generation....they typically do not just set back and take someone's word for anything these days simply because word of mouth has little good value.....people have willingly let "word of Mouth" go to pot...they say they'll do one thing, and they never come close to it....kind of like used to a handshake sealed a contractual agreement...didn't have to depend on a legelese putting it into wordy ways...but NO, mankind has killed all the reliability of mankind.... It seems to me that it is becoming another condition like what was in the religious world back in the 1800's and was an impetus to start a religious uprising.....probably get a bunch more religious sects started eh? |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 25, 2010 7:39:06 GMT -5
Lead the way Sharon
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Post by ronhall on Aug 25, 2010 8:37:47 GMT -5
Around here one of the more successful charismatic groups that fills their parking lot several times on Saturday and Sunday has started a "New Life" fellowship for young folks. They attract so many young folks and also older too, that they meet in school auditoriums. They use big screen TV instead of hymnals and much of their preaching is accompanied by animated power point presentations. They also have several pretty good rock bands.
I don't know if they are outside of our local area or not. But I do know they have a lot of religious energy. Young folks like it because instead of attending a service of a couple hundred and hoping to find a date, they can attend one of a couple thousand. The chance of hooking up is a lot higher. And there's some really nice young folks there too.
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Post by ts on Aug 25, 2010 10:19:37 GMT -5
Hmm. I hope you know, Bert, that being a graphic artist and editorialist doesn't make you right. But I must admit that you do get your point across very cleverly. In this case you would be the first to recognize that you logic is flawed. I don't think anyone is disputing what Paul did. I think the main dispute is how the workers are carrying out the word.
You seem pretty computer savvy. There are many workers who are also. What would be wrong with the workers maintaining a website that stated their beliefs? Would that be detrimental? There are a lot of workers with a lot of free time. Even if one of them started to reach out on line, do you think they could promote truth that way?
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Post by emy on Aug 25, 2010 13:51:45 GMT -5
... You seem pretty computer savvy. There are many workers who are also. What would be wrong with the workers maintaining a website that stated their beliefs? ... God's work is individual through the Holy Spirit. Any effort by one individual, or a group selected, would be incomplete and maybe so basic that it wouldn't be considered helpful. ("too simple") Yet, there can be nothing which brings more unity than being subject to the control of the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 25, 2010 13:55:43 GMT -5
... You seem pretty computer savvy. There are many workers who are also. What would be wrong with the workers maintaining a website that stated their beliefs? ... God's work is individual through the Holy Spirit. Any effort by one individual, or a group selected, would be incomplete and maybe so basic that it wouldn't be considered helpful. ("too simple") Yet, there can be nothing which brings more unity than being subject to the control of the Holy Spirit. TS, there was a worker who had a very good blog on the web before you came on TMB....but it didn't last long, he had to take it down! I thought it was very nicely put together myself. |
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Post by emy on Aug 25, 2010 14:53:20 GMT -5
TS, there was a worker who had a very good blog on the web before you came on TMB....but it didn't last long, he had to take it down! I thought it was very nicely put together myself. Do you have a source for this information? |
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Post by ts on Aug 25, 2010 18:27:38 GMT -5
I have handed out and mailed thousands of invitations to gospel meetings. What is the difference in doing that and having an invitation on line with a little more extensive blurb than could fit on a card? Does the card contain any more of the Holy Spirit than a website? We didn't get one response in a thousand from the invitations but we kept on an on putting them out "in faith". Do you think a website might be cheaper, reach more people and make a good impression on folks in an area? THEN they might possibly be attracted to gospel meeting BY THE SPIRIT and hear the gospel.
Now tell me, what is the resistance to doing things like that?
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Post by ronhall on Aug 25, 2010 20:09:04 GMT -5
I have handed out and mailed thousands of invitations to gospel meetings. What is the difference in doing that and having an invitation on line with a little more extensive blurb than could fit on a card? Does the card contain any more of the Holy Spirit than a website? We didn't get one response in a thousand from the invitations but we kept on an on putting them out "in faith". Do you think a website might be cheaper, reach more people and make a good impression on folks in an area? THEN they might possibly be attracted to gospel meeting BY THE SPIRIT and hear the gospel. Now tell me, what is the resistance to doing things like that? Seems like I read somewhere on a forum that years ago Jack Carroll did some preaching or advertising on the radio. Also seems like having a radio was forbidden at that time, so he wasn't too worried about any of the true and faithful picking up the broadcast. Somehow it became noticed and . . . . . I was going to say all 7734 broke loose . . . . . . Nah! That's ridiculous. I must'av just been dreaming or somehow just made that up!! :>) What apparently is at stake here is the F&W desire to continue to go forth as was done in New Testament times. Using an internet web site doesn't fit in well with that scheme. One major problem I can see with the practice is that the person who sets up the site becomes an authority in doctrine for the simple reason that no formal doctrine other than the Bible is used. |
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Post by pinky on Aug 26, 2010 1:27:01 GMT -5
God's work is individual through the Holy Spirit. Any effort by one individual, or a group selected, would be incomplete and maybe so basic that it wouldn't be considered helpful. ("too simple") Yet, there can be nothing which brings more unity than being subject to the control of the Holy Spirit. I was disadvantaged when I sat through decades of gospel meetings. The effort made by the individual worker, or group selected (-ie pair) was incomplete, and basic, so not considered helpful! I guess that nullified the message for everyone. Doesn't make a lot of sense as an argument, does it Emy! |
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Post by ts on Aug 26, 2010 9:07:35 GMT -5
TS.You need to identify my logic flaw. NEARLY EVERYONE here disputes Paul's ministry and doctrine (ie didn't happen; was rarely as 2x2; wasn't based upon works; speaking for himself and not Jesus etc..) And why didn't Jesus get His message across better? Where is the doctrine? Where are the objective historical witnesses? Why all the racism; covering up; exclusion; judging etc?? I suspect, that if ANY WORKER DID A WEBSITE IT WOULD BE IGNORED LIKE MINE HAVE BEEN. Your cartoon was that of someone telling an outsider to look up the meeting doctrine online and he comes up with Paul's writings much to the consternation of the bitter ex. Makes no sense. Every Christian religion, no matter how bizzar it is, will point to the scriptures for their justification. What people want to know is what is the 2x2's particular slant on the scripture. No matter how the message is delivered, only a few will accept it. That is the definition of the narrow way. Different methods have been used over time to reach people. Giving out invitations with a little blurb on them is one way. Different workers have their different methods. Putting an ad in a newspaper is another way. Jesus certainly didn't do either of those. Now the media has changed and people get most of their information off of the internet rather than the newspaper. You are probably right about the site getting ignored. I have beat the streets for days on end and handed out thousands and thousands of invitations to gospel meetings. Not ONE person professed as a result of that effort. Not one in a million viewers of invitations across the States comes to meeting and professes. Yet, we still keep on doing it. Why? Because it is worth the effort if one in a million gets saved. So don't be discouraged about your website. It might be just the thing that someone is looking for. I know at one point the gospel that the workers and friends taught appealed to me. I was really glad that there was someone out there who was willing to say that they definitely had the truth, there was no other true way and were willing to stake their life on it. The "one true way" doctrine appealed to me. The workers and friends believe that message whole heartedly. They seem afraid to state it publicly even though it is scriptural. A nice website stating clearly their beliefs would likely appeal to a lot of people in this world of confusion. A worker-established site would definitely get a lot of attention. I mean, this site and Wings has brought a lot of attention to the meetings. If the "2x2" is the truth, it will stand this sort of scrutiny. Paul wasn't afraid of "negative" press. He welcomed it just like the positive press. "...Christ is preached" either way. For years the workers have tried to keep their movements and organization low key for fear of bad publicity. Now that methodology is coming back to bite them. The Great Wall of China kept the enemies out and their technology in. But the Wall eventually was the undoing of China because they stagnated as a culture as the world passed them by. Because of the worker's lack of openness, a lot of problems are surfacing. Personally, I think there is hope. I do not think it would be destructive or against the Spirit to have a website along with other signs of openness. The friends and workers love to keep in touch with each other all over the world. They love to know what is going on in the different countries. I am sure they do keep in touch like they always have before the advent of internet. A common website would greatly help with emphasizing needs and victories all over the world. The friends love to give and would like to know where to give. The site, carefully controlled by an open panel, could help direct funds all over the world. I think the exes would also be drawn to a website. Some would go there for bad reasons. Others for legitimate reasons. I mean, arguing for a website right now is like the day when they were talking about whether to wear black stockings or not. Overnight, that staunch rule changed without discussion. People went practically from saying, "You are going to hell if you wear blackstockings" one day and the next day they were like, "sure, wear them. No big deal." I suspect that eventually there will be no elaborate defenses for or against worker websites. It will just be a natural part of their ministry to reach a perishing world. There will be some old timers who will oppose it for a dwindling decade, but they will die off and the new generation will continue on with their new freedoms and new restrictions. Hopefully each generation will become more open and accountable to each other and more like a functional family. |
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Post by Admin on Aug 27, 2010 23:23:59 GMT -5
Please stick to the topic (rule 4). Other stuff goes on other threads. Thanks  |
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Post by Jason Storebo on Aug 29, 2010 23:50:58 GMT -5
Do the workers do much actual door-to-door evangelizing these days? The clean-cut young men wearing the white shirts and ties, & riding bicycles, are immediately recognized as Mormon missionaries, and the well-scrubbed cluster of family members who come and stand at your door, are often known to be Jehovah's Witnesses. Do the workers no longer do much door-to-door evangelizing...or are they rebuffed due to people confusing them with the frequently unwelcome visits of these...others?
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Post by landdownunder on Aug 30, 2010 3:49:40 GMT -5
Are you implying visits by our workers would be any more welcome?
I haven't heard of any door knocking by our workers here in southern Australia for many years.
Perhaps the sight of workers with two heads from Tasmania could be a bit off putting ;D
If news of the CSA hits the media, our group will get lots of public scrutiny and a knock on the door by workers representing a group known to have child molesters in its ranks won't be too welcome I'm thinking. Our society has a very dim view of child molesters, something workers are going to quickly discover.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 30, 2010 6:48:38 GMT -5
Are you implying visits by our workers would be any more welcome? I haven't heard of any door knocking by our workers here in southern Australia for many years. Perhaps the sight of workers with two heads from Tasmania could be a bit off putting ;D If news of the CSA hits the media, our group will get lots of public scrutiny and a knock on the door by workers representing a group known to have child molesters in its ranks won't be too welcome I'm thinking. Our society has a very dim view of child molesters, something workers are going to quickly discover. Seems like to me, that not only Aust. but USA will get a lot of public scrutiny, esp. now with the Boston arrest last week and public disclosure of the WINGS website as well as VOT website. A little known sect is going to hit the news a blarin'. LDU, what is the statue of limitations dow under? |
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Post by landdownunder on Aug 30, 2010 7:04:56 GMT -5
There is no statute of limitations on CSA offences down here.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 30, 2010 7:06:04 GMT -5
Usually news is short lived. Look at the story about the priests molesting children. How much was done and how much news is it now?
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