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Post by electbygrace on Aug 23, 2010 18:53:30 GMT -5
This problem of sexual abuse of children by workers is being discussed as a carnal issue. Perhaps it is fundamentally a spiritual problem.
For the individual, no or limited power of the Spirit to overcome the flesh could cause it.
For the church organization, holding exclusive beliefs means that protection of the 'one true church' becomes of paramount importance. A belief of man that is upheld by men's wisdom.
In both the fundamental problem is wrong doctrine. Embrace salvation by grace through faith - itself a gift of God - and the spiritual power flows to individuals and the collective. There is no need for men puffed up in pride to cover-up and God's name can be glorified in purity.
Get the fundamental doctrine right and with humility, plenty of good will follow.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 23, 2010 20:58:00 GMT -5
These are copied from the BTS board to here for informational purposes: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=loginWe have been reminded that the Vic/Tas workers in question have crossed state borders at times, with one having been in homes in NSW on many occasions. Also several of the offences occurred in Qld. This is not hearsay but the subject of a formal report to authorities in that state. So at least four states are involved in just this situation involving two workers from the Vic/Tas staff.  If victims in Qld and NSW wish to join with Vic/Tas victims in action against the worker/perpetrators of child sexual abuse, please in strict confidence contact one of us here at WINGS. We will put you in contact with the Vic/Tas victims. Professionals amongst the civil authorities who deal with such criminal actions have stated that this is an important first step in finding healing. Guilt includes those who are complicit in covering up these crimes. Nobody is above the law. Here is the link to WINGS for reporting. Anyone can report information to WINGS, and someone will contact you with information regarding the above. wingsfortruth.info/database.htm You can also contact me at my regular email address listed below, or by PM. Scott  Is this going to be a repeat of the 200 name list as in Michigan? I didn't know it was Wings objective to solicit names. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2010 22:09:30 GMT -5
This problem of sexual abuse of children by workers is being discussed as a carnal issue. Perhaps it is fundamentally a spiritual problem. For the individual, no or limited power of the Spirit to overcome the flesh could cause it. For the church organization, holding exclusive beliefs means that protection of the 'one true church' becomes of paramount importance. A belief of man that is upheld by men's wisdom. In both the fundamental problem is wrong doctrine. Embrace salvation by grace through faith - itself a gift of God - and the spiritual power flows to individuals and the collective. There is no need for men puffed up in pride to cover-up and God's name can be glorified in purity. Get the fundamental doctrine right and with humility, plenty of good will follow. You are right and wrong on this one, IMO. But there is a TEST: identify the churches which preach "salvation through grace alone" and look at their practices, moral standards and track record on CSA. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 23, 2010 22:13:43 GMT -5
Is this going to be a repeat of the 200 name list as in Michigan?No. This is the opposite scenario. The names of the abusers are known. It is the victims that are being asked to come forward and report to the authorities. I didn't know it was Wings objective to solicit names. It isn't. We are cooperating with the authorities and with the friends there that have asked us to. Scott
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Post by ts on Aug 24, 2010 0:36:41 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. We are glad for all the combat training that you have had and that you are putting it to good use, still, in defending our freedoms.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 24, 2010 6:53:07 GMT -5
Yes, Thank you very much Scott...I know that this gets to you but you are well and able to fill the shoes that are needed to be filled....
I didn't know until your last post that there was more then ONE worker alleged or perhaps even admitted!
This just makes me sick at heart! I cannot, for the life of me, see why this has been left to go on and on and on...multiple victims and each victim has their own support system that are terribly affected besides what it does to the rest of us! The tears are rolling off my face right now for all the pain that's been these victims.....I see the effects of this now more then ever since I'm working in the charity clinic and these people are usually from incidents that were pretty much taken care of at the time of incident! Man!
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 24, 2010 7:16:09 GMT -5
Have the abusers been reported to the authorities? Shouldn't the authorities be gathering the information?
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Post by spiders on Aug 24, 2010 7:29:18 GMT -5
This problem of sexual abuse of children by workers is being discussed as a carnal issue. Perhaps it is fundamentally a spiritual problem. For the individual, no or limited power of the Spirit to overcome the flesh could cause it. For the church organization, holding exclusive beliefs means that protection of the 'one true church' becomes of paramount importance. A belief of man that is upheld by men's wisdom. In both the fundamental problem is wrong doctrine. Embrace salvation by grace through faith - itself a gift of God - and the spiritual power flows to individuals and the collective. There is no need for men puffed up in pride to cover-up and God's name can be glorified in purity. Get the fundamental doctrine right and with humility, plenty of good will follow. You are right and wrong on this one, IMO. But there is a TEST: identify the churches which preach "salvation through grace alone" and look at their practices, moral standards and track record on CSA. You quoted ebg incorrectly Bert...it is "Embrace salvation by grace through faith - itself a gift of God." When we understand the grace of God in salvation and realise that we "are dead to sin and alive to God", then we will want to live a righteous life. We need to understand our position before God...that we are justified by faith, declared righteous and accepted in the beloved. Romans 6 is clear that although we are saved by grace through faith that this does not mean that we continue to sin. Grace empowers us to present ourselves as instruments of righteousness unto God. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2010 8:07:00 GMT -5
Have the abusers been reported to the authorities? Shouldn't the authorities be gathering the information? Yes, they have been reported to the authorities, and they are gathering information. (WINGS has not done the reporting to the authorities, but some of those who were abused have) WINGS is simply cooperating by being a means of putting people in contact with each other and passing on information as requested. Scott |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 24, 2010 8:18:02 GMT -5
I am interested to hear who this meeting is open to and who the letter is being sent to in Tasmania. Living in Southern Tasmania and having daughters the information coming to light is very unsettling and I would wonder who the letter is being addressed/sent to. Has consideration been given to people who have attended missions and had the worker in question in their home but not be part of the fellowship? Has the matter been reported to authorities or is it being dealt with as an internal matter? I believe the letter, which is on the Wings site, is not being sent out by the workers, but by some of the friends in Tas. I am not sure who is attending the union meeting in Hobart, but I suspect that it for the professing friends only. It is my understanding that the worker in question has not been reported to the authorities, as none of the victims (at this stage), wish to press charges.The worker has been removed from the work and is living with his sister in Victoria. What changed this situation? Wings involvement? |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2010 8:32:24 GMT -5
I believe the letter, which is on the Wings site, is not being sent out by the workers, but by some of the friends in Tas. I am not sure who is attending the union meeting in Hobart, but I suspect that it for the professing friends only. It is my understanding that the worker in question has not been reported to the authorities, as none of the victims (at this stage), wish to press charges.The worker has been removed from the work and is living with his sister in Victoria. What changed this situation? Wings involvement? No, what changed is that there have been some abuse survivors that have discussed the issue together and with other professing folks and decided to report to the authorities. Please keep in mind that these people that are doing the reporting are people that go to meetings and are wanting the situation dealt with legally and biblically. There is a growing number of friends that are demanding accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with this issue. Scott |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 8:42:44 GMT -5
Heard today of a priest in Ireland who was a leader of the IRA, and complicit in mass murder in Claudy in 1972 - the Catholic Church "moved" him to another area!
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 24, 2010 8:50:56 GMT -5
What changed this situation? Wings involvement? No, what changed is that there have been some abuse survivors that have discussed the issue together and with other professing folks and decided to report to the authorities. Please keep in mind that these people that are doing the reporting are people that go to meetings and are wanting the situation dealt with legally and biblically. There is a growing number of friends that are demanding accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with this issue. Scott A growing number? How many is a growing number. Why are we always chasing generalities? Because we don't like specifics. It belittles our cause. Of all of the workers that existed in th time frame of these happenings what is the percentage of workers that are guilty of such acts. Yet we are led to believe that all workers are to come under the scrutiny of those that champion a cause to further their own ends. |
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Post by landdownunder on Aug 24, 2010 8:54:59 GMT -5
Keep pushing Linford and you'll eventually get the lurid details. You may wish you hadn't.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2010 9:19:37 GMT -5
No, what changed is that there have been some abuse survivors that have discussed the issue together and with other professing folks and decided to report to the authorities. Please keep in mind that these people that are doing the reporting are people that go to meetings and are wanting the situation dealt with legally and biblically. There is a growing number of friends that are demanding accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with this issue. Scott A growing number? How many is a growing number. Why are we always chasing generalities? Because we don't like specifics. It belittles our cause. Of all of the workers that existed in th time frame of these happenings what is the percentage of workers that are guilty of such acts. Yet we are led to believe that all workers are to come under the scrutiny of those that champion a cause to further their own ends. Hey Lin, I am not quite following you on your questioning here I guess. I am trying to answer your questions honestly, although there is some info that cannot be shared due to the investigation. In regard to numbers of friends involved, this all started when a few professing couples contacted WINGS and asked to be put in contact with a certain worker that they felt they could trust. That happened, and from that the one worker was removed from his position. Then additional victims came forward. Not to WINGS, but to the professing folks that were dealing with this. Since that time I would imagine that those professing folks who are getting involved is somewhere above 30 or so, but there are extended families that are now questioning how this has been handled. Sorry I can't be more specific, and I can only pass on the info that I get. On the BTS board we have had about 50 people register since this issue came to light. The majority of those are people from Vic/Taz who are looking for information and wanting to find out how the workers are handling this. It appears that this is now going to be out of the workers hands and into the hands of the authorities. The authorities will certainly be contacting the workers, and I would assume that the workers will fully cooperate with any investigation and will encourage the friends to also cooperate. The main workers involved at the moment are Peter Doecke & David Leitch. I believe that David is more or less assuming the duties of John Robinson who is unable to handle the overseer duties due to health related issues. I would encourage the friends there to contact these two workers if they have concerns as to how this is being handled, and also to support these two workers if they are indeed being open and honest in this matter. Scott |
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Post by ronhall on Aug 24, 2010 9:27:08 GMT -5
I would think all professing folks would expect accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with such an issue. I know, I would.
I don't really believe that all workers are caused to come under scrutiny just because of the unsavory actions of the very few or to champion the cause of Scott to further his own end. Where there is accountability, honesty and openness, those responsible for doing the damage are quickly identified and effectively dealt with. However, when these virtues are not evident in the leadership, and the problem is allowed to go on and on, then the entire group becomes suspect.
I can't see any reason to blame Scott or Wings. In fact, it is an embarrassment to me that these functions are being performed outside the camp, in effect, appearing to drag a reluctant leadership into accountability, honesty and openness.
How can anyone in their right mind support this approach? Am I seeing this wrong?
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Post by ts on Aug 24, 2010 10:16:20 GMT -5
No, what changed is that there have been some abuse survivors that have discussed the issue together and with other professing folks and decided to report to the authorities. Please keep in mind that these people that are doing the reporting are people that go to meetings and are wanting the situation dealt with legally and biblically. There is a growing number of friends that are demanding accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with this issue. Scott A growing number? How many is a growing number. Why are we always chasing generalities? Because we don't like specifics. It belittles our cause. Of all of the workers that existed in th time frame of these happenings what is the percentage of workers that are guilty of such acts. Yet we are led to believe that all workers are to come under the scrutiny of those that champion a cause to further their own ends. Linford, when it comes to truth, you are TRUELY in the way. |
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Post by StAnne on Aug 24, 2010 12:11:01 GMT -5
Heard today of a priest in Ireland who was a leader of the IRA, and complicit in mass murder in Claudy in 1972 - the Catholic Church "moved" him to another area! You write as though it has been proven. It has not been proven as such, and perhaps there is more investigation that should have been and will be done. Does writing of possible Catholic infraction help to deflect what is being written of in this thread? Perhaps we should call to mind the commandment against bearing false witness--and at least wait until something has been proven before we start pointing fingers? "The Catholic Church did not engage in a cover-up of the 1972 IRA Claudy bombing, Archbishop of Armagh Seán Brady and Bishop of Derry Seamus Hegarty said today. In a joint statement, which followed the release of the Police Ombudsman’s Report into the 1972 bombing, they said the Church did not prevent the possibility of arresting and questioning of suspect Fr James Chesney. The report says Fr Chesney was transferred to a parish in Co Donegal following secret talks between the then northern secretary William Whitelaw and the head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal William Conway. “As the Ombudsman finds in his statement today, the Church was approached by the secretary of state at the instigation of senior members of the RUC. Furthermore, the Church subsequently reported back to the secretary of state the outcome of its questioning of Fr Chesney into his alleged activities,” the statement said. “The actions of Cardinal Conway or any other Church authority did not prevent the possibility of future arrest and questioning of Fr Chesney," they added. “As the Ombudsman's statement points out, Fr Chesney until the time of his death in 1980, 'is known to have regularly travelled across the Border but was never arrested, questioned nor further investigated by the RUC in connection with the Claudy bombings or other terrorist activity',” the statement said. “Throughout the Troubles, the Catholic Church, along with other churches in Northern Ireland, was constant in its condemnation of the evil of violence,” the statement said. “It is therefore shocking that a priest should be suspected of involvement in such violence. This case should have been properly investigated and resolved during Father Chesney's lifetime.” The statement said that if there was sufficient evidence to link him to criminal activity, Fr Chesney should have been arrested and questioned at the earliest opportunity. “We agree with the Police Ombudsman that the fact this did not happen failed those who were murdered, injured and bereaved in the bombings.” Northern Secretary Owen Paterson said he was "profoundly sorry" that Fr Chesney was not investigated for his "suspected involvement" in the incident. “My anger at the actions of those responsible for the attack is matched in strength by my sorrow that the survivors of the atrocity and the relatives of the dead did not see those responsible brought to justice for their crimes," he said." www.iriimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0824/breaking31.html?via=rel |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 24, 2010 13:23:51 GMT -5
Keep pushing Linford and you'll eventually get the lurid details. You may wish you hadn't. Likely would object loudly IF there were statistics reported without it being a court document! Since the authorities have been contacted and investigations are supposedly in process, I don't think this is Johnny calling wolf one time too many, do you? I was just thinking about a case of parental negligence that happened close to home here...a young father went to work last week, we had 105 degrees with humidity which raised it up to about 116 degress or thereabouts and the man went into work and left his very young child fastened in the child seat with the windows up.....when he went out after work there the poor baby was and of course, had died...he run the baby into the nursery where he was supposed to have taken the child earlier that morning and didn't but it was way too late. That child dropped through the cracks every direction...mama didn't make sure that father remembered to stop at the nursery, daddy didn't make sure he took the baby into the nursery and the nursery personnel didn't bother to try and contact the parents to find out why the child was not there that day, because it was a routine nursery drop-off.....it makes me so upset....parents having children that don't seem to be able to remember they have them when others who want them can't have them! Where's the justice in all of that? This kind of parental carelessness ranks right up there with CSA abuse in my opinion! It is awful! |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 24, 2010 13:28:44 GMT -5
I would think all professing folks would expect accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with such an issue. I know, I would. I don't really believe that all workers are caused to come under scrutiny just because of the unsavory actions of the very few or to champion the cause of Scott to further his own end. Where there is accountability, honesty and openness, those responsible for doing the damage are quickly identified and effectively dealt with. However, when these virtues are not evident in the leadership, and the problem is allowed to go on and on, then the entire group becomes suspect. I can't see any reason to blame Scott or Wings. In fact, it is an embarrassment to me that these functions are being performed outside the camp, in effect, appearing to drag a reluctant leadership into accountability, honesty and openness. How can anyone in their right mind support this approach? Am I seeing this wrong? No, ronhall, you've got it in the right mind of direction...just too bad everyone doesn't get going that direction....this CSA issue is becoming a more and more horrible surplus of degradation within the fellowship and I'm getting more and more shocked as more and more facts come out! To think workers knew of these perps but shuttled them from pillar to post and opening the way up for them to committ more and more crime....horrible! I'm glad for WINGS, simply because the victims have some other victims to correspond with and get understanding that some people don't seem to want to give them regardless...bless their hearts! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2010 15:06:34 GMT -5
It's time to stop thinking the workers involved in CSA and other inappropriate practices are very few in comparison to the numbers of workers who are not. We just don't know at this stage what the true statistics are. Are the procrastination and side-swerving the doing of the right thing in the circumstances is now raising the question of "are they hiding something," or "what skeletons are still in the cupboard?"
Instead of just looking to oust those involved and thinking things will be hunky dory after that (which it won't), an in depth analysis of the way workers operate and their domestic arrangements is badly needing carried out. In addition to asking "who are the miscreants," we should be asking, "what's causing it!" That second one is the hot potato current workers and die-hard innies can't handle apparently?
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Post by ts on Aug 24, 2010 17:47:49 GMT -5
The same system of hiding workers is being used in other circumstances. It is difficult enough to get any action on CSA issues and that is an illegal issue. We are trying to get action on a worker who is in a longstanding immoral relationship. No one wants to touch it. numerous overseers let it slide. "Not in my jurisdiction", they say. excommunicating friends for a tv is in their jurisdiction but putting a worker out of the work for fornication isn't. Doesn't make sense. They, of course, back it up scripturally, just as they have their inaction with CSA all these years.
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Post by sharonw on Aug 24, 2010 17:53:01 GMT -5
The same system of hiding workers is being used in other circumstances. It is difficult enough to get any action on CSA issues and that is an illegal issue. We are trying to get action on a worker who is in a longstanding immoral relationship. No one wants to touch it. numerous overseers let it slide. "Not in my jurisdiction", they say. excommunicating friends for a tv is in their jurisdiction but putting a worker out of the work for fornication isn't. Doesn't make sense. They, of course, back it up scripturally, just as they have their inaction with CSA all these years. And to think William Irvine was ousted due to some kind of immorality PLUS a wacky mind! Is it just a symptom of the whole makeup of the fellowship? Has Christ been used as a coverup? I don't know, but my blood curdles when these things are not dealt with morally muchless biblically. I feel for those downunder WHO ARE trying their best to have it dealt with legally AND biblically! Doesn't seem Jesus' teachings for handling such things is going very far these days! Didn't happen in the US or hasn't so far..... |
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Post by ts on Aug 24, 2010 19:49:34 GMT -5
I would think all professing folks would expect accountability, honesty and openness in dealing with such an issue. I know, I would. I don't really believe that all workers are caused to come under scrutiny just because of the unsavory actions of the very few or to champion the cause of Scott to further his own end. Where there is accountability, honesty and openness, those responsible for doing the damage are quickly identified and effectively dealt with. However, when these virtues are not evident in the leadership, and the problem is allowed to go on and on, then the entire group becomes suspect. I can't see any reason to blame Scott or Wings. In fact, it is an embarrassment to me that these functions are being performed outside the camp, in effect, appearing to drag a reluctant leadership into accountability, honesty and openness. How can anyone in their right mind support this approach? Am I seeing this wrong? Ron, this is very well worded. I can imagine that the staunch professing folk are very irritated that it takes an outside force to deal with such a heinous crime among workers. If the kind of honesty, openness and accountability were in the meetings, I highly suspect that I would still be professing. Not to say that I am "outside" because I am "offended" or "bitter". It is just that the fruits that are so evident are not the fruits of truth. That means that the workers cannot be sowing truth. I cannot support untruths and we encouraged "outsiders" (from other religions who were disgruntled for the same problems the workers are facing) to come out of dishonesty and into the truth. I do not see the workers encouraging the friends to do the same. I do not see the workers encouraging "outsiders" to not be bitter with their congregation and to "not forsake the assembling of themselves together". I used to preach that we must look at the fruit of a religion and have heard the workers, groping for sermons, preach this same thought in so many different ways. Rather they quit groping sermons(and everything else), stop preaching and actually start living a life of truth and honesty. Just DOING the right thing would mean more than 1000 sermons from the most senior overseer visiting from a foreign field. |
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Post by JO on Aug 24, 2010 19:52:47 GMT -5
I feel for those downunder WHO ARE trying their best to have it dealt with legally AND biblically! Doesn't seem Jesus' teachings for handling such things is going very far these days! Didn't happen in the US or hasn't so far..... Sharon, Jesus' teaching was for individuals. He didn't set up a hierarchy therefore he didn't need to give instructions for how to manage a religious organization. Representatives of an organization tend to protect the organization at all costs as they see fit. Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. |
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Post by someguy on Aug 24, 2010 20:10:37 GMT -5
I feel for those downunder WHO ARE trying their best to have it dealt with legally AND biblically! Doesn't seem Jesus' teachings for handling such things is going very far these days! Didn't happen in the US or hasn't so far..... Sharon, Jesus' teaching was for individuals. He didn't set up a hierarchy therefore he didn't need to give instructions for how to manage a religious organization. Representatives of an organization tend to protect the organization at all costs as they see fit. Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. Right on JO |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 24, 2010 20:14:08 GMT -5
Therefore they may choose to dispense information on a "need to know" basis and maintain a "let sleeping dogs lie" policy. I think that this sleeping dog is about to start barking.....  Scott
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Post by mrws on Aug 24, 2010 22:33:59 GMT -5
how do i get to the BTS board
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