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Post by sharonw on Aug 30, 2010 7:26:58 GMT -5
There is no statute of limitations on CSA offences down here. WOW! What the authorities can make of that in regards to 30 yrs. of molestations! Man! That IS a milestone hung around someone's neck! |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 30, 2010 7:27:53 GMT -5
Usually news is short lived. Look at the story about the priests molesting children. How much was done and how much news is it now? I think some money greased the news people's hand and I also think that a lot hasn't been told yet that will be told! |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 30, 2010 8:09:47 GMT -5
Usually news is short lived. Look at the story about the priests molesting children. How much was done and how much news is it now? I have read quite a bit lately about this actually. Just google it and you can read a lot of various articles. I actually have been interested in those articles which are being written by the Catholics themselves. There is a growing demand for openness and honesty from the church in dealing with all this, and church members (and clergy) are coming forward and acknowledging the problem and asking the church to deal with it. Here is an article from the National Catholic Reporter: ncronline.org/news/accountability/beneath-child-abuse-scandalFrom that: Few people want to dirty their hands with the crisis. Who from inside the clerical culture has spoken up and reported abuse? (10) Many folks are sick of hearing about clergy abuse. Fr. James Martin, an editor of the Jesuit magazine America told The New York Times, "I don't think editors realize how tired Catholics are of seeing the church portrayed through the lens of sex abuse." (11)
That poses the real conundrum: percolating behind the scandal of priests preying sexually on minors and vulnerable women and men only waiting to be served up steaming hot is the secret system where priests and bishops enjoy the sexual favors of willing adult women and compatible adult men; (to say nothing about pornography and masturbation). The questions about clerics' mistresses, their children, the abortions of their companions (often instigated by them) and widespread homosexual activity cannot long be ignored. (12) A more powerful lens is waiting to focus on the clerical culture that will render the crisis in ever more precise dimensions.
Beneath the child abuse scandal is a clerical world of sexual reality. Besides avoidance and denial of that reality is a system of moral disbelief sustaining the crisis. Many priests simply do not believe a host of church moral dictums about human sexuality. A more perfect example is not possible than a top official in the Vatican's Congregation for the Clergy who was caught on television in 2007 claiming he "didn't feel he was sinning" by having sex with gay men (13) -- unless it is a monsignor acting out in his Vatican office, or a Vatican chorister in 2010 allegedly procuring male prostitutes for papal gentleman-in-waiting.
Yes, there is a major Roman Catholic crisis -- from the papal household and curia to regional and pontifical seminaries, to our neighborhood parishes, in religious communities and monasteries. The name of that crisis is sex. It is time that we all move beyond public relations to counteract the attached scandal and move to embrace what sociologist Tom Westrum calls a "fix." (14) Like what is going on in different areas in regard to the truth fellowship, when members (and workers/clergy) start to demand change, then change will take place. Without change, there will be a significant loss of membership due to a lack of trust and respect for those who are in positions where they can take care of issues and bring about change. I have heard of this happening with overseers (as well as 'regular' workers) losing trust and respect due to their unwillingness to discuss these issues and deal with them openly, honestly, scripturally and legally. Scott  |
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Post by ronhall on Aug 30, 2010 10:20:35 GMT -5
When the progress of God's people was stalemated after crossing the Red Sea due to excess litigation among themselves, God sent the Priest of Midian.
When God's people were stalemated due to the posturing of Goliath, God sent David.
When God's people were being ruled by the Roman occupational army, God sent Jesus.
Etc.
Etc.
So, who will he send this time?
Or are we to believe he already sent his last prophet, Jesus, the alpha and omega, the first and last.
If so, it is entirely up to us to use what He has already given us to make this sin right and righteous again.
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2010 11:14:05 GMT -5
When the progress of God's people was stalemated after crossing the Red Sea due to excess litigation among themselves, God sent the Priest of Midian. When God's people were stalemated due to the posturing of Goliath, God sent David. When God's people were being ruled by the Roman occupational army, God sent Jesus. Etc. Etc. So, who will he send this time? Or are we to believe he already sent his last prophet, Jesus, the alpha and omega, the first and last. If so, it is entirely up to us to use what He has already given us to make this sin right and righteous again. The priest of Midian was an "outsider". Jesus was an ex. David was an insignificant professing person. Looks like it will take outsiders to make a change. That really provokes God's people to jealousy. Are the workers really happy about Scot's efforts? They have been forced to cooperate, but are they really happy that they did not think of a solution themselves? Scot is one of the many outsiders making a difference. I wonder what the real, behind the scenes reaction of the workers is to these sorts of meddlings. Would the workers go so far as to donate money to the cause of Wings? |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 30, 2010 11:51:33 GMT -5
I appreciate Scott as well. Could you tell us what changes Scott has made?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 30, 2010 11:55:45 GMT -5
ts, Don't make too big of a deal of my involvement here. I am simply the administrator of WINGS, and as such I am known to others. The involvement of myself is seen by others as I post information and some of what goes on. Most of what is done by WINGS is done by the other members, and most of that is never publicized here on the board. There is a lot that goes on that is never shared publicly. These other members provide support to those reaching out for help, and they also help put these people in contact with support groups and others who have suffered. I am mostly a conduit of information and here to answer questions and bring attention to some issues that come up. WINGS now has members who are professing and attending meetings. These members are better able to relate to some of those who contact us, and also are able to discuss issues with workers from the position of a professing member of the fellowship. In regard to the thread topic, members of WINGS have been involved in setting up a support group for those who have been affected by the issue of CSA there in Vic/Tas. This support group is almost exclusively professing folks that are willing to help those who have been abused in the past, and to assist them in reporting to the appropriate authorities. The authorities have made it clear that if people come to them to file a report, they do NOT have to carry it any further than just providing information. The authorities will respect the wishes of those making the report, and if they have no desire to press charges then that is fine. They can simply make their report and allow the investigation to continue without the need to be further involved or ever appear in court proceedings. If anyone is wanting to take advantage of this, I can provide the contact details and names of investigating officers for filing a report, or place other victims in contact with a support group who can also provide those details. Scott |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 30, 2010 12:04:30 GMT -5
I appreciate Scott as well. Could you tell us what changes Scott has made? Just for the record....... obviously I haven't made any changes.  I have provided information to various workers/overseers/friends and any changes that took place from that information was done by them, not me. Again, I am mainly a conduit of information, and put people in touch with others who may be able to help them. I'll be happy to take the credit of being a point of contact for folks, but do not wish to be credited for someone else's work. Scott |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2010 12:24:53 GMT -5
There are plenty of lessons to be learned by the RCC's experience. This subject probably deserves a thread by itself.
Here's an Irish bishop in the minority I really like though:
from The Economist, Aug5/10:
When a new bishop, Liam MacDaid, took office on July 25th, he presented a stark picture: “Society has forced us in the Irish church to look into the mirror, and what we saw [was] weakness and failure, victims and abuse.”
Honesty, humility, truth.....this guy expresses it all in a few words.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 30, 2010 12:36:29 GMT -5
That's the only way change can come look in the mirror. As you stated once before "be the change" thanks Clearday
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2010 13:43:32 GMT -5
That's the only way change can come look in the mirror. As you stated once before "be the change" thanks Clearday That was Gandhi who said that. Looking in the mirror is only first step to change. Perceiving the image accurately is the second step (no rose coloured glasses allowed). Third step is to acknowledge the truth. Fourth step is to ask, "what can I do to help make change?" (not just lipstick) Finally, start taking steps which begin the change. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 30, 2010 13:59:12 GMT -5
Until there is a consensus among the high levels of the workership hierarchy there will be NO real change....I'm thankful that Woody has indicated that there is ONE change and that is that all allegations of CSA will be reported to the authorities pronto...the workers will no longer take things into their own hands, but leave it to the authorities to sift it out.
I think that is a significant step....and at the same time it will leave the overseers out of the mix to lay blame on....it will be the perps and only the perps vs. the victims. And I think that is the way it is pretty much in other ways of life.....
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2010 14:50:04 GMT -5
ts, Don't make too big of a deal of my involvement here. I am simply the administrator of WINGS, and as such I am known to others. The involvement of myself is seen by others as I post information and some of what goes on. Most of what is done by WINGS is done by the other members, and most of that is never publicized here on the board. There is a lot that goes on that is never shared publicly. These other members provide support to those reaching out for help, and they also help put these people in contact with support groups and others who have suffered. I am mostly a conduit of information and here to answer questions and bring attention to some issues that come up. WINGS now has members who are professing and attending meetings. These members are better able to relate to some of those who contact us, and also are able to discuss issues with workers from the position of a professing member of the fellowship. In regard to the thread topic, members of WINGS have been involved in setting up a support group for those who have been affected by the issue of CSA there in Vic/Tas. This support group is almost exclusively professing folks that are willing to help those who have been abused in the past, and to assist them in reporting to the appropriate authorities. The authorities have made it clear that if people come to them to file a report, they do NOT have to carry it any further than just providing information. The authorities will respect the wishes of those making the report, and if they have no desire to press charges then that is fine. They can simply make their report and allow the investigation to continue without the need to be further involved or ever appear in court proceedings. If anyone is wanting to take advantage of this, I can provide the contact details and names of investigating officers for filing a report, or place other victims in contact with a support group who can also provide those details. Scott I see what you are saying, Scot. I don't mean to make a big deal out of your involvement. However, it is a significant role that you created a conduit of information. It was necessary and if you hadn't done it, God would have raised up someone else. None of the people who God used in the Bible were "big deals". If the workers were as open as the need to be, they would have long ago seen the need for a website and set up measures to take care of CSA and other abuses. What I meant to emphasize is the type of people that God ends up using to help his kingdom. The outcast, derelicts and rejected in society....in this case, the worker/friend society. Sorry, Scot. I didn't mean to make you sound like such scum of the earth :-). |
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2010 14:50:50 GMT -5
That's the only way change can come look in the mirror. As you stated once before "be the change" thanks Clearday That was Gandhi who said that. Looking in the mirror is only first step to change. Perceiving the image accurately is the second step (no rose coloured glasses allowed). Third step is to acknowledge the truth. Fourth step is to ask, "what can I do to help make change?" (not just lipstick) Finally, start taking steps which begin the change. No, it was Michael Jackson who said that. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 30, 2010 17:29:56 GMT -5
Usually news is short lived. Look at the story about the priests molesting children. How much was done and how much news is it now? I have read quite a bit lately about this actually. Just google it and you can read a lot of various articles. I actually have been interested in those articles which are being written by the Catholics themselves. There is a growing demand for openness and honesty from the church in dealing with all this, and church members (and clergy) are coming forward and acknowledging the problem and asking the church to deal with it. Here is an article from the National Catholic Reporter: ncronline.org/news/accountability/beneath-child-abuse-scandalFrom that: Few people want to dirty their hands with the crisis. Who from inside the clerical culture has spoken up and reported abuse? (10) Many folks are sick of hearing about clergy abuse. Fr. James Martin, an editor of the Jesuit magazine America told The New York Times, "I don't think editors realize how tired Catholics are of seeing the church portrayed through the lens of sex abuse." (11)
That poses the real conundrum: percolating behind the scandal of priests preying sexually on minors and vulnerable women and men only waiting to be served up steaming hot is the secret system where priests and bishops enjoy the sexual favors of willing adult women and compatible adult men; (to say nothing about pornography and masturbation). The questions about clerics' mistresses, their children, the abortions of their companions (often instigated by them) and widespread homosexual activity cannot long be ignored. (12) A more powerful lens is waiting to focus on the clerical culture that will render the crisis in ever more precise dimensions.
Beneath the child abuse scandal is a clerical world of sexual reality. Besides avoidance and denial of that reality is a system of moral disbelief sustaining the crisis. Many priests simply do not believe a host of church moral dictums about human sexuality. A more perfect example is not possible than a top official in the Vatican's Congregation for the Clergy who was caught on television in 2007 claiming he "didn't feel he was sinning" by having sex with gay men (13) -- unless it is a monsignor acting out in his Vatican office, or a Vatican chorister in 2010 allegedly procuring male prostitutes for papal gentleman-in-waiting.
Yes, there is a major Roman Catholic crisis -- from the papal household and curia to regional and pontifical seminaries, to our neighborhood parishes, in religious communities and monasteries. The name of that crisis is sex. It is time that we all move beyond public relations to counteract the attached scandal and move to embrace what sociologist Tom Westrum calls a "fix." (14) Like what is going on in different areas in regard to the truth fellowship, when members (and workers/clergy) start to demand change, then change will take place. Without change, there will be a significant loss of membership due to a lack of trust and respect for those who are in positions where they can take care of issues and bring about change. I have heard of this happening with overseers (as well as 'regular' workers) losing trust and respect due to their unwillingness to discuss these issues and deal with them openly, honestly, scripturally and legally. Scott This is an eye-opening article! And I believe it IS true within the fellowship....it speaks about the power and authority of the celibate priest and how it enters into what is considered a crisis. I think it would likely be found very much the same within the fellowship, if a study was done! |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 30, 2010 20:03:45 GMT -5
What I meant to emphasize is the type of people that God ends up using to help his kingdom. The outcast, derelicts and rejected in society....in this case, the worker/friend society. Sorry, Scot. I didn't mean to make you sound like such scum of the earth :-).Ha!!! I don't mind being in that category. Just the folks that Jesus came for aren't they?  Scott
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2010 20:47:14 GMT -5
What I meant to emphasize is the type of people that God ends up using to help his kingdom. The outcast, derelicts and rejected in society....in this case, the worker/friend society. Sorry, Scot. I didn't mean to make you sound like such scum of the earth :-).Ha!!! I don't mind being in that category. Just the folks that Jesus came for aren't they? Scott yep |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 30, 2010 20:51:47 GMT -5
emy had this reference on another thread Here's a collection already done. www.reformation.com/We would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries." Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002. |
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Post by ts on Aug 30, 2010 22:07:24 GMT -5
emy had this reference on another thread Here's a collection already done. www.reformation.com/We would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries." Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002. Where are the statistics? Of course married men can be perverts. There is no question about that. Of course any church clergy can have molesters among them, married or unmarried. The question is, does a ministry that makes a rule that their ministers must be unmarried and also claim they are the only right way have a higher rate of sexual deviance than other ministries? The catholic church and the meetings fall into that category. Since we do not have statistics and the ministry is closed to that sort of scrutiny, it is not practical, for the safety of our children, to assume the risk is lower or even equal to other religions. While there are problems in other churches, there are also checks and balances in other churches that help to minimize these predator threats. The meetings do not have the checks and balances. The workers do not submit to the friends. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 3:45:12 GMT -5
The workers have had to submit to Health and Safety regulations and practices with their convention sites in respect of toilets, kitchens and dining arrangements etc. The CSA business is another Health and Safety issue to contend with. Take all reasonable precautions to reduce risks. The greatest risk is from the staying of workers in homes where there are unrelated children. This risk can be eliminated overnight. Whatever benefits workers may get from staying in these homes just cannot justify the accompanying risk factor.
Risk Assessment conclusion. Stop this practice. Risk eliminated.
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Post by shushy on Aug 31, 2010 5:50:55 GMT -5
The workers have had to submit to Health and Safety regulations and practices with their convention sites in respect of toilets, kitchens and dining arrangements etc. The CSA business is another Health and Safety issue to contend with. Take all reasonable precautions to reduce risks. The greatest risk is from the staying of workers in homes where there are unrelated children. This risk can be eliminated overnight. Whatever benefits workers may get from staying in these homes just cannot justify the accompanying risk factor. Risk Assessment conclusion. Stop this practice. Risk eliminated. OHS, hmm heck that puts a different slant on everything. WOW. The rights of chldren to be free from harm. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 31, 2010 7:15:16 GMT -5
The workers have had to submit to Health and Safety regulations and practices with their convention sites in respect of toilets, kitchens and dining arrangements etc. The CSA business is another Health and Safety issue to contend with. Take all reasonable precautions to reduce risks. The greatest risk is from the staying of workers in homes where there are unrelated children. This risk can be eliminated overnight. Whatever benefits workers may get from staying in these homes just cannot justify the accompanying risk factor. Risk Assessment conclusion. Stop this practice. Risk eliminated. OHS, hmm heck that puts a different slant on everything. WOW. The rights of chldren to be free from harm. The innocency of a child is perhaps that which makes them precious to others and when that is destroyed, then the child is no longer a child in mental ways and they are not able to handle that because of the lack of maturity of their growth...so it IS up to the adults to protect them from harm so that they can grow as children should grow and that innocence preserved until they are old enough to handle the loss of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 7:49:37 GMT -5
The workers have had to submit to Health and Safety regulations and practices with their convention sites in respect of toilets, kitchens and dining arrangements etc. The CSA business is another Health and Safety issue to contend with. Take all reasonable precautions to reduce risks. The greatest risk is from the staying of workers in homes where there are unrelated children. This risk can be eliminated overnight. Whatever benefits workers may get from staying in these homes just cannot justify the accompanying risk factor. Risk Assessment conclusion. Stop this practice. Risk eliminated. I agree with you ram but it's not likely to happen. Workers had to be dragged into complying with Health and Safety regulations for conventions and now they are having to be dragged into complying with CSA laws. Do you think there is any possibility that they will go one tittle beyond the requirements of the law for the protection of children? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 8:02:40 GMT -5
It may not be likely to happen by their own volition, but in time they may be forced down that route. As far as I'm concerned they have been given plenty of warning and advice. I deliberately steered away from suggesting a "risk assessment" although I did provide what I thought were sound proposals. To do a risk assessment would probably mean carrying one out for the whole of worker operations and I think the head bummers would be wanting to steer well clear of that.
In time they will catch up, simply because they will have to, but at what cost.
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Post by ronhall on Aug 31, 2010 8:18:29 GMT -5
Hey RAM, I wonder if you ever considered how a risk assessment might play out. Without much thought I'd expect it would quickly divide into a dual study. The result would be one set of rules for brother workers and another set for sister workers.
It might also further develop to include fathers, uncles, brothers . . . . .
Am I about to suggest the cure might be worse than the disease?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2010 8:42:11 GMT -5
Hey RAM, I wonder if you ever considered how a risk assessment might play out. Without much thought I'd expect it would quickly divide into a dual study. The result would be one set of rules for brother workers and another set for sister workers. It might also further develop to include fathers, uncles, brothers . . . . . Am I about to suggest the cure might be worse than the disease? There are risks everywhere and measures need to be taken to reduce such risks. Eliminating risk is nearly impossible, but also nearly possible. Mothers should indeed examine fathers' behaviours and vice versa when it comes to damaging activities against their children. That will reduce risk but not eliminate it. What we do know that there are huge benefits to having two parents bringing up children in a home. We also know that there are few benefits (probably almost none) to children for having worker sleepovers. So we need to compares apples to apples. Years ago, I think after the freeway system was first built in the US, people were killing themselves right and left, and officials didn't know what to do. One governor took a different tack toward eliminating deaths on the highway. He began to introduce safety measures which either reduced accidents or made them less destructive.....hence the installation of guard rails and many other measures since. We can't eliminate CSA, but we can reduce the risk of it happening and minimize the impact when it does happen. As an aside, I am really concerned when advocates put the child in the place of being the first line of defense through education. They need the education alright, but the children need to be the last line of defense when all other risk-reduction measures fail. |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 31, 2010 14:03:32 GMT -5
It may not be likely to happen by their own volition, but in time they may be forced down that route. As far as I'm concerned they have been given plenty of warning and advice. I deliberately steered away from suggesting a "risk assessment" although I did provide what I thought were sound proposals. To do a risk assessment would probably mean carrying one out for the whole of worker operations and I think the head bummers would be wanting to steer well clear of that. In time they will catch up, simply because they will have to, but at what cost. With people voting with their feet, there is the chance that there'll be NO need to accomodate laws by the workership because there'll be few to none left of the membership. Thern all active workers will retire....almost have to if there's no membership to keep them going. |
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Post by will on Aug 31, 2010 14:07:42 GMT -5
Many, many churches have developed a "safe sanctuary policy". Just Google this phrase and you'll find many. Perhaps the F&W should do the same?
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