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Post by Celibate on May 18, 2006 8:44:23 GMT -5
Celibate? How many workers are married? If a married person wanted to become a worker would they be allowed?
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Post by Heartbreaking on May 18, 2006 8:49:54 GMT -5
This is heartbreaking. I am so sorry for all who were innocently trying to do what is right and were brutally ground under the foot of the organization. Sadder still is that most of the friends who hear about it will never hear or believe the truth behind it all. Not because they are bad people, only that they have put their full faith and trust in a group of men and women.
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Post by prue on May 18, 2006 9:08:18 GMT -5
Someone wrote, "Celibate? How many workers are married? If a married person wanted to become a worker would they be allowed?" I am sorry, I don't have an answer to that. I have heard of some married couples in the work, though I have never met them.
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Post by l on May 18, 2006 9:27:20 GMT -5
To Walter I would like to encourage you perhaps Walter to write a book a physical book you could add it too a disk and go that route also? I would purchase it Lloyd
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 10:32:46 GMT -5
MC,
When you state that our itinerate ministry is not necessarily celibrate, you're referring to those that are married and in the ministry, right???
As a believer of this church: and of those who go into the ministry, I'd say most of us operate under the belief that sex is one of those sacrifices that they're willing to make...since it is only under very special circumstances that anyone who is married is allowed to go into the ministry.
In my area, all know: you "have to" be single to even offer...(unless one of those special circumstances makes a married couple a necessity)
And if you're single, and in the work, and having sex, then....
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Post by Cherie on May 18, 2006 10:42:30 GMT -5
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Post by as i c it thanks on May 18, 2006 10:49:06 GMT -5
Walter,
Thank you for your response.
I'm a bit confused by your list of wrongs done.
Did all of them have to do with the excommunications that took place? or was that a list of all the wrongs that you know have taken place (over time) but which weren't (maybe) issues of the event?
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Post by Guest Again on May 18, 2006 11:00:52 GMT -5
Hi "Guest Again" Perhaps there is a homosexual culture in the Catholic Church, or worse (ie the Boston troubles) I am not Catholic but I am uncomfortable with people finding fault with such faiths because I suspect their attack goes deeper than that particular church. Such practices are not condoned by the Catholic Church. My own itinerate ministry is not necessarily celibrate. It is merely more convenient to be celebrate. Hi MC. I think it is more than "perhaps" there is a homosexual culture in the CC. And to make matters worse, it seems a lot of them are pedophiles as well. We only hear about the ones who have been exposed for committing crimes against children. I doubt that all of the homosexual priests, maybe even a tiny minority of the, are pedophiles. We may only be seeing the tip of the iceburg. I couldn't believe it when I found out the F&W had a celebate ministry. And it wasn't long before I found articles on the web about the same problems in the F&W ministry. And the same kind of sweeping it under the carpet and shipping the offenders away. And of course trying to get the victims to shut up so they can protect the org. Having grown up in the CC, I knew first hand about the violence against children, (which has never even been touched upon), but I wasn't aware of the sex abuse or of the homosexual priesthood. Let me say now, I don't give a hoot about anyone's orientation. I have friends and relatives who are gay and I don't care about it. BUT when it comes to a religious org, I find it hugely hypocritical and deceitful. Not to mention the other now-known issues associated with it. This whole thing has caused me years of soul searching and I've come to the conclusion that religion itself is the biggest, most evil, deadliest and most catastrophic hoax ever purpetrated on the human race. For anyone who still believes in this kind of thing, do yourself a big favor: read a book called "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris. I was astonished at how many of the conclusions I had come to were addressed in this book. Faith is merely taking someone else's word that something is true or not true. Think and research for yourself. Look at ALL the information, not just the stuff written by people, pro OR con, who have an agenda. Think it all the way through.
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Walter
Junior Member
Posts: 108
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Post by Walter on May 18, 2006 12:20:47 GMT -5
TO as i c it:Walter, 1. I'm a bit confused by your list of wrongs done. 2. Did all of them have to do with the excommunications that took place? 3. or was that a list of all the wrongs that you know have taken place (over time) 4. but which weren't (maybe) issues of the event? 1. Thats understandable ..... however the list was not intended to be listed as a list of wrongs but as a List that goes to the issue of worker " conduct". 2. Worker conduct was the catalyst for the excommunications, incorporation, immorality and dishonesty. It all comes down to the workers conduct and how they were operating. These items were items that the ministry did not want to address. Most happened before,some during, and one after. The porn elder was brought to Willis Propps attention long before the Elder was arrested and Willis attempted to just smooth things over. Interesting enough he was caught on a police sting through the Internet. 3. This definitely is not a list of all the wrongs that I know have taken place (over time) 4. Each situation was not brought up but the ones that were, were issues about the workers conduct/ handling and actions taken. There has been a lot of people here that still seem to not understand just what proceeded these people being given the BOOT. What started all the excommunications. It is quite simple. The workers will not stand for anyone that questions their conduct ... be it Incorporating the fellowship, their moral standards, their impropriety or their honesty. The other hot button is asking any ?? about doctrine. Its that simple folks. Some posters here like to say that these excommunicated folks were trouble or a cancer to the fellowship however they were just asking for things to be done and handled in a Goldly manner. Most of the folks invovled had been in the fellowship 40 Plus years. Some of those excommunicated were given the BOOT simply because they would not say Yes to the workers question; Do you support this ministry in all we do.
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Post by i know on May 18, 2006 14:12:13 GMT -5
Hey I know the "porn elder" as you call him and he's one sick guy... he swings all directions... he's gay, into kids, into animals, into dead people... very sick man. The police were surveyling him for a suspected beastiality crime in the area when they caught him in a child porn chat room. An undercover officer approached him and arranged to meet him where the porn elder handed over some child porn pics for him, thus getting himself arrested. The porn elder then proceeded to blame his excommunicated brother, Dale Jordan, for it all, saying he did it, he snuck into his house and put the pictures on his computer... which does not make sense because the porn elder (might as well call him by name here - Stan Jordan) was the one in the chatroom and meeting the undercover cop with the pics, so it was a weak story but very believed amongst the 2x2s, everyone was saying "Well, you know Dale did it" It apalled me that people could be so naive and stupid, but it was the story that the workers propagated and so everyone believed. What's perhaps more apalling in its own sense is the pitiful house-arrest sentence that the porn elder received, oh and some community service which he said he found made him feel degraded... not degraded enough, I'd say, after all he's done... and then eventhough he had meeting taken from his home he is rumored to have re-professed, but I cannot say that's the absolute truth because I'm not in the truth anymore and therefore not in the loop like I used to be. As far as the justice system component of this ordeal, this board is not really the place to discuss it, but the worker aspect... it is just so sick and so sad that the workers knew the porn elder was up to no good before the porn business formally came to light yet they sought to, as Walter said, "smooth it over", and then once it was all out in the open the story was "Dale did it"... I can't help but wonder if they had taken some action when they were informed of the porn elder's activities, if maybe they could have changed the way the story played out... hard to know, but regardless there was some serious negligence here, serious wrong-doing and serious corruption. I also hope there is some serious regret and remorse on the behalf of all those who hatched the lie, promoted it, or covered up the truth.
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Post by l on May 18, 2006 14:25:02 GMT -5
When Jim Knipe said to some that would be ex2x2s Do you support willis and this ministry should be irrelavent to the original issue i would think and has nothing to do with what started the Alberta problem....I mean Jim shouldn't of thrown that wrench into the issue at hand
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Post by thankyou on May 18, 2006 14:29:35 GMT -5
Hey I know the "porn elder" as you call him and he's one sick guy... he swings all directions... he's gay, into kids, into animals, into dead people... very sick man. The police were surveyling him for a suspected beastiality crime in the area when they caught him in a child porn chat room. An undercover officer approached him and arranged to meet him where the porn elder handed over some child porn pics for him, thus getting himself arrested. The porn elder then proceeded to blame his excommunicated brother, Dale Jordan, for it all, saying he did it, he snuck into his house and put the pictures on his computer... which does not make sense because the porn elder (might as well call him by name here - Stan Jordan) was the one in the chatroom and meeting the undercover cop with the pics, so it was a weak story but very believed amongst the 2x2s, everyone was saying "Well, you know Dale did it" It apalled me that people could be so naive and stupid, but it was the story that the workers propagated and so everyone believed. What's perhaps more apalling in its own sense is the pitiful house-arrest sentence that the porn elder received, oh and some community service which he said he found made him feel degraded... not degraded enough, I'd say, after all he's done... and then eventhough he had meeting taken from his home he is rumored to have re-professed, but I cannot say that's the absolute truth because I'm not in the truth anymore and therefore not in the loop like I used to be. As far as the justice system component of this ordeal, this board is not really the place to discuss it, but the worker aspect... it is just so sick and so sad that the workers knew the porn elder was up to no good before the porn business formally came to light yet they sought to, as Walter said, "smooth it over", and then once it was all out in the open the story was "Dale did it"... I can't help but wonder if they had taken some action when they were informed of the porn elder's activities, if maybe they could have changed the way the story played out... hard to know, but regardless there was some serious negligence here, serious wrong-doing and serious corruption. I also hope there is some serious regret and remorse on the behalf of all those who hatched the lie, promoted it, or covered up the truth. can anyone say gossip?
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Post by i know too on May 18, 2006 16:42:51 GMT -5
stan--gets to stay dale gets excommunicated and there's nothing wrong...you say
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Post by as i c it thanks on May 18, 2006 17:55:08 GMT -5
Walter,
Thanks again for your answers.
From your list, it appears that some actions were taken. So would it be fair to say that the ministry did take some necessary action (or corrective measures) to righten the situation?
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Post by kidding on May 18, 2006 20:42:00 GMT -5
Walter, Thanks again for your answers. From your list, it appears that some actions were taken. So would it be fair to say that the ministry did take some necessary action (or corrective measures) to righten the situation? You're kidding right? That's like saying the pope took action.
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 20:54:22 GMT -5
walter,
My mother considered the Catholic Church wrong because they:
a) put a priest between God and the believer, & b) had the power to excommunicate believers (A power that she felt could be too easily abused: and used to threaten a believer when it came to their salvation)
I'm sure the excommunications--and that we did excommunicate individuals--came as a shock to many. (And maybe we needed that shock to wake us up).
There was a time when the workers could do no wrong (regardless of what they did). And had that question been posed to the previous generation, all might have backed down. But with this generation, times are changing: and much of that change that is now occurring, is taking place because of all that took place in Alberta.
Maybe it's all a test.
a) we profess (take our stand) b) we profess (in meetings)...and some go into the work
We were given two commandments: (summed up as): 1) Love God 2) Love others The Alberta situation tests both...and tests all (the indiviudal and the church)...maybe to see if what we profess with our lips is what we really profess in our hearts.
The only peace I find (when I consider both sides of this "mess") is that God works all things( for the called) to good. And I think there is good coming out of it. (For the workers: & the believers: whether 2 x 2's or exes)
I'm sorry (and grateful) to all of you--because I think you all were being used (by God) to bring in some necessary changes and growth.
And
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 21:02:30 GMT -5
kidding,
oooh....they didn't, then??? Hmmmmmm??? sorry.
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Post by Exactly the point on May 18, 2006 21:07:23 GMT -5
TO MCWell MC some of us just could not except what the worker’s set as examples. Examples of being dishonest Examples of being immoral Examples of how to dishonor individuals Examples that showed little or no love for individuals that had concerns about the fellowship, but absolute loyalty to the 2x2 system . Check out the only question the workers asked. DO you support this ministry YES or Nogs me back to my # 1 answer. So you learn that the group you have been following is filled with people who exibit the following undesirable traits. Why would you want to stay? Why the wailing and crying about being excommunicated? You were in a bad system. You should be giving thanks to have escaped. Or would you rather be still in and living in the dark?
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Post by Rob O on May 18, 2006 21:18:30 GMT -5
Perhaps because many humans have an innate hate of injustice and a desire to fight it and to seek real justice.
Yes, some people do whine but Walter's posts do not have a tone of 'whining'. I perceive him to be somebody who has been bitterly disappointed by very real structural evil, and now wishes to bring it to the attention of others.
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Walter
Junior Member
Posts: 108
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Post by Walter on May 18, 2006 21:21:21 GMT -5
TO As i c itWalter, From your list, it appears that some actions were taken. So would it be fair to say that the ministry did take some necessary action (or corrective measures) to righten the situation? The simple answer is NO In two of the cases where the courts were involved, the workers had ample time to deal with matters but heaven forbid we are talking about people of stature and means. In another case it was very close to a top Overseer so it was handled by legal council outside of court, with a legal agreement, and that family left Canada. In another case the overseers agreed to take a worker from another country only to have him returned in short order. The others stepped out of the ministry before the heat came down. Watching Willis in the child custody court case, high step around issues of impropriety and immorality by two brother workers was disgusting to say the least. When asked if the two victims received any help or counseling his reply I will quote from court transcript. Page # 61 of transcript 1. Q. Now, you indicated that these two workers were asked to leave the fellowship correct ? 4. A. We asked them to leave the ministry. 11. Q. and you indicated that you had cooperated with the authorities. 16. A. and a psychiatrist -- the psychiatrist that looks after that kind of thing. 18. Q. and that was for both girls ? 19. A. I don't remember if it was done for the one in Calgary, but it was for the other. 21. Q. and you indicated that you believed the allegations by the girls ? 23. A. Yes 24. Q. And did charges flow against those individuals ? 25. A. NO, they didn't. In either case they didn't. I wonder if the only authorities involved was a friendly psychiatrist and if it was for the victim closest to the overseer that got help.. So there you have it, one was considered important enough to receive help while the other was just forgotten about. There were many reasons why the workers did not want any friends attending that child custody case. Too much information came out. Most of the friends that did have the courage to go to that court case have been excommunicated or have left the fellowship after watching three weeks of evasive testimony by Propp
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Walter
Junior Member
Posts: 108
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Post by Walter on May 18, 2006 21:57:08 GMT -5
To Exactly the PointSo you learn that the group you have been following is filled with people who exibit the following undesirable traits. 1.Why would you want to stay? 2.Why the wailing and crying about being excommunicated? 3.You were in a bad system. 4.You should be giving thanks to have escaped. 5.Or would you rather be still in and living in the dark? 1. I did not stay I left ... or was it right ..either way I'm not there 2. I wasn't excommunicated 3. Well not a very healthy one 4. I am 5. No thanks
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 22:00:48 GMT -5
Okay, Walter, I have no idea what we're talking about now. I knew about about the incorporation issue: the excommunication issue: and the other information "i know" added--but not what you've just added.
The second commandment is to love others as ourselves. Between my upbringing (regarding excommunication) and my own nature, I'm pretty certain I'd be out too...had I been in your place.
Was the church kept out of it to protect the victims mentioned above?
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Walter
Junior Member
Posts: 108
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Post by Walter on May 18, 2006 22:52:15 GMT -5
To As i c itThe second commandment is to love others as ourselves. Between my upbringing (regarding excommunication) and my own nature, I'm pretty certain I'd be out too...had I been in your place. Was the church kept out of it to protect the victims mentioned above? It was much easier for the workers to keep it from the Church as it was basicly workers & members involved and you can be sure the workers were not going to talk. The workers seek enforced silence from the victims so by enlarge 99.9% of members would not have been aware of anything. Getting victims to come forward is not an easy thing to do or get. Shaming the victim is a much easier way to silence them and those that know. No victim to testify ... no charges... NO court case ..
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Post by as i c it on May 19, 2006 0:36:14 GMT -5
Walter,
Did these sites begin because of the excommunications?
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Walter
Junior Member
Posts: 108
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Post by Walter on May 19, 2006 0:42:15 GMT -5
Thanks Rob O.Perhaps because many humans have an innate hate of injustice and a desire to fight it and to seek real justice. Yes, some people do whine but Walter's posts do not have a tone of 'whining'. I perceive him to be somebody who has been bitterly disappointed by very real structural evil, and now wishes to bring it to the attention of others. Rob ... you have said it better than I ever could. Thanks
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Post by Brad Lewis on May 19, 2006 1:08:45 GMT -5
You cannot be part of the Friends and Workers cult and still be Christian when you know all that they believe and teach instead of the Bible. Most workers don't believe in following Christ and often discourage those who do. The people who many refer to as "excomunicated" were actually kicked out of a cult / occult, they were not removed from the kingdom (if they were part of it before).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2006 4:56:33 GMT -5
Walter, Did these sites begin because of the excommunications? I know this wasn't addressed to me -- but seeing that it is a public board I will take the freedom to comment anyway. The mass excommunications in Alberta were absolutely not the start of wrong in the 2x2 group -- neither did they mark any particular change of direction. But they were a real eye opener for a large number of folks involved in the group. The excommunications in themselves prompted fairly major investigation into other aspects of the group that folks had blindly accepted until then. So it is partly true, that the excommunication process did catalyze at far greater interest in knowing the truth. And as the bible says, it is this "truth" that has set many of us free.
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Post by The Problem on May 19, 2006 8:07:35 GMT -5
You cannot be part of the Friends and Workers cult and still be Christian when you know all that they believe and teach instead of the Bible. Most workers don't believe in following Christ and often discourage those who do. The people who many refer to as "excomunicated" were actually kicked out of a cult / occult, they were not removed from the kingdom (if they were part of it before). It seems to me that the root of the problem is that when there was some illegal activity involving the workers the victim went to the workers for a solution rather than going to the authorities. If a worker shoots someone you do not go to the overseer to find out what to do. If a child is molested you do not go to the overseer to find out what to do. This is the same thing that the Catholic church did. They prevented the victims from bringing up charges for decades. Note to self - the church handles the spiritual side and the authorities handle the criminal side.
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