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Post by as i c it on May 16, 2006 23:22:57 GMT -5
Mildlycurious,
In all fairness to Edgar, you need to read the letters he wrote, at the very start of "this mess" (as they refer to it on "Civil Discourse"). It'll be very obvious to you that he started out with complete faith in the church: and that the problem (issue) would be solved. (And then you can watch him deteriorate--with his feelings toward our church--to where he is now).
You mentioned on another thread something to the effect of churches closing down where you lived (and I think you gave--or agreed--that a lack of attendance was one of the reasons???). Well, one thing about "us" (and those who were once "us") we sure ain't dead here!
Gotta hand it to the workers for that one! They DID teach us to love truth and God: and to care about each other...so...here we all are..."fighting": debating: all over "truth", and God, out of love for Him and each other!!!
All of the above: is a good sign of "life": and very healthy--and to be commended!
I've lost my temper on this board. And I've been judgmental (and harsh) because of it (and I'm--normally--not a hot-tempered individual): so--I can see how anger may have resulted in rash reactions...which (maybe) led to things which--maybe escalated...
But: without that "dynamite"....everyone would have just stayed in their ruts...And maybe, God wanted us to all wake up again... And maybe the things that once served a purpose (and which we look at as so wrong today) were actually "right" (in God's eyes) for His purposes back then...
(Who knows??? But...for one reason or another...here we all are...)
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zing
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Post by zing on May 16, 2006 23:37:20 GMT -5
Edgar, I'm also interested in the 'international 2x2 leadership network' ...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2006 1:24:16 GMT -5
About the 'million dollar enterprize' - Just a guess at simple mathematics for Alberta
20 - 30 at least 10,000 dollar cars in the work = $200,000 - $300,000 . 2000-3000 members with a very conservative contribution guess of $200 per year = approx. approx. $500, 000 Convention must spend (and take in) at least $100 per person = $300,000 - $400,000 With my very limited access to ecconomic data of the system in very small part of Sask (amongst the very few that will confide in me) I am aware of 3 or 4 $100,000 estates left in trust for 'the work' -- I would guess there are at least 20 - 40 such trusts in the much richer Alberta. Use your math to figure out what this may be!!
This is only a portion of the ecconomics of the cult!! Folks uncovered 6 digit resources in Willis name at one time -- I would guess that it was only the tip of the isberg.
Although I am not trying to imply that the ecconomics in Alberta are unreasonable (or extravagantly used) considering the number of people involved, and the size of the organization --- it would be stupid to imply that it is anything less than a multi-million dollar enterprize.
Ordinary simple mathematics, built on very conservative estimates quickly top a million or two or three.
What are the buildings exclusively used for convention worth? How much do you think "the work" has invested in them?
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Post by ex-teenager on May 17, 2006 5:30:12 GMT -5
$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left
oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters.
If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year.
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Post by to MC bump on May 17, 2006 6:22:14 GMT -5
MC, can a Christian outside of the 2x2 fellowship receive salvation? yes or no. Perhaps MC can answer this question for us...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2006 9:39:02 GMT -5
$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters. If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year. No teenager I haven't suggested that it was unreasonable amounts for the size of the organization. Mentioned the figures as someone questioned my statement that it is a "multi-million dollar enterprise". My figures are just conservative guesses -- It is the kind of mathamatics that anyone should be able to do --- before they claim exclusive rightness because of poverty!!!!!!!!!!! The workers claim of poverty, would make any genuine homeless folks laugh!
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Post by poopie on you on May 17, 2006 9:58:14 GMT -5
To bullpoopie It seems to me you have had a bitter experience in the Truth. I am happy to defer to judgements of people closer to the issue. But, like with the claim of Edgar that our faith is a "multi-million dollar enterprize" I need to take careful stock of the motives and mentality of the people how make claims - not against Alberta workers, but against all those in my faith. The claim of homosexuality. I have no idea, but intuitively if I wanted to be a homosexual I would seek out the homosexual culture, and leave my faith. Very, very, very hard thing to practice in the work. I think this is another one of those "multi-miion dollar enterprize" statements. You claim that Willis was covering up for something. If that is true then he would be derrelict in duty. Why would someone leave something they lived for, because someone else is not living it? And having covered up something (implied sexual impropriety) you mention two people who were removed from the work for this very thing. Finally, you write "all the while they're molesting and raping and swindling ..." This is more of Edgar's "million dollar enterprize." It is precisely 180 degrees opposite to the truth, and is a load of bullpoopie. Actually, the thing is, Edgar and I get it, and you don't, hence your lovely attitude!
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Post by l on May 17, 2006 10:02:47 GMT -5
To Edgar The 2x2s you are correct can't fix there problems till they acknowledge them.This morning was thinking how W.I set the seals upon the group the only way the seals can be broken is by acknowledging the mistakes and admitting where the mistake is once 2x2s do this it's easy to move on!Stop and think for a moment a car in a garage needs to be diagnosed firstly before any attempt be made at a fix
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Post by been there on May 17, 2006 10:10:01 GMT -5
I appreciate Edgar's input on the money issue amongst the 2x2s, and just to add my own little bit, I know of a number of older folks who have/are going to give their estates to the work, a close friend of mine has been named executor over an elderly fellow's will and apparently it is all going to the work which breaks my heart because nobody professing, let alone any workers, ever come to visit him, and yet his hard earned savings are going to them to be spent on who knows what, and I know they have expenses, but to think of how hard this man has worked all his life and now they'll probably laugh at the pittance he will give eventhough it's his best... it's just so sad.
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Post by as i c it on May 17, 2006 10:22:18 GMT -5
bullpoopie,
When the couple first approached Willis, was Willis' reaction to just ignore the situation? or was something said to indicate that he would talk to the individual: or in some way, handle it?
What was the "false doctrine" that was referred to? And what lie?
What explanations were given (to those who asked) as to why the situation was being handled with excommunications...or the concerns (brought up by the one couple) not being dealt with???
Were all the elders informed of what was taking place? And all the believers? Or what?
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Post by l on May 17, 2006 10:23:29 GMT -5
I know a old fellow non 2x2 he is going to give all his money to salvation army...but this fellow when he needs help he always asks me o.k. so I said to him quote: " the ones that you have willed all your money to why don't you go and ask them for help"
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Post by BP on May 17, 2006 10:38:28 GMT -5
bullpoopie, When the couple first approached Willis, was Willis' reaction to just ignore the situation? or was something said to indicate that he would talk to the individual: or in some way, handle it? Willis' reaction was to ignore it and to scold those who brought it to lightWhat was the "false doctrine" that was referred to? And what lie? "false doctrine" = the whole "only right way and everyone else is going to hell" thing plus the William Irvine truth-of-the-matter that had been so vehemently deniedWhat explanations were given (to those who asked) as to why the situation was being handled with excommunications...or the concerns (brought up by the one couple) not being dealt with??? No explanation at all, except Willis saying in court "I wish I knew" when asked why the excommunications happendWere all the elders informed of what was taking place? And all the believers? Or what? I'm not sure who all was informed, but the elders in the meetings where the newly booted people had gone were informed, because those folks were not allowed to be there in those meetings anymore, but other than that it was kept very quiet, especially amongst the "believers"
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Post by BP again on May 17, 2006 10:39:18 GMT -5
Sorry my replies did not come out bolded like I intended... I ain't so good with computers!
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Post by ex-teenager on May 17, 2006 11:22:37 GMT -5
$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters. If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year. No teenager I haven't suggested that it was unreasonable amounts for the size of the organization. Mentioned the figures as someone questioned my statement that it is a "multi-million dollar enterprise". My figures are just conservative guesses -- It is the kind of mathamatics that anyone should be able to do --- before they claim exclusive rightness because of poverty!!!!!!!!!!! The workers claim of poverty, would make any genuine homeless folks laugh! Try buying a house and raise your kids on $2,000 a year.
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Post by Guest Again on May 17, 2006 11:56:11 GMT -5
To bullpoopie The claim of homosexuality. I have no idea, but intuitively if I wanted to be a homosexual I would seek out the homosexual culture, and leave my faith. Very, very, very hard thing to practice in the work. I think this is another one of those "multi-miion dollar enterprize" statements. I disagree. In fact, I believe a celebate ministry is the perfect place for a homosexual to "hide in the open". As an obvious example, look at the Catholic priesthood. No one asks a priest or celebate minister he is a 40 year old man who has never been married. And it is probably a safe bet to assume lots of other people with the same orientation are in the same brotherhood. Celibacy isn't natural. Certainly not for men at least. I have seen estimates of 10 to 60 percent of the Catholic priesthood being gay with 30 percent the most often used estimate. Not all of them break their vows of celebacy tho.
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Post by Baloney on May 17, 2006 13:11:45 GMT -5
If you were a man with homosexual desires, brought up in the truth, I think the last place you would seek out would be a homosexual culture. That would be the quickest way to be ostrasized by everyone you have grown up close to.
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Post by hiding on May 17, 2006 15:12:26 GMT -5
Baloney and Guest Again, you both hit the nail right on the head in my opinion. If a professing person, whether male or female, has homosexual tendencies, they're not going to seek out a homosexual culture or group because then their secret would obviously be out (no pun intended) and due to their religious afilliation that's not something they'd likely want, so what they would be more likely to look for is a safe place where they can be whoever they are without anyone knowing, or atleast without anyone who will persecute or hassle them knowing, and I'm thinking the work could be a good shelter for some of them.
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Post by Loving mom on May 17, 2006 22:36:35 GMT -5
I am a single parent. He is two.
Beating is wrong so I won't do it.
When I tell him to sit in a chair, he won't do it.
Tieing him to the chair is wrong so I won't do it.
Personally restraining him is not possible because he will bite, hit, kick, and scratch.
Talking to him doesn't work, because as soon as he figures out its a lesson, he takes off.
Grounding him doesn't work, because he always has something else to do.
Bribing him doesn't work, because he seems to know I'm attempting to obtain his obedience.
Finally he, in another act of defiance, climbs over the child gate and falls down a flight of hardwood stairs: A broken arm, A broken ankle, 44 stitches on his head and arm, and a newfound morbid fear of stairs.
And now he has decided to start sticking thin objects in the electrical outlets, after prying off the plastic child-proof protector caps.
I love him with every fiber of my being. Wasn't that enough? Where did I go wrong? I fear for his safety.
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Post by Loving mom on May 17, 2006 22:37:30 GMT -5
Oops. Posted to the wrong thread. Sorry.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 17, 2006 22:44:47 GMT -5
Teenager wrote:
"$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left
oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters.
If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year."
- Where did you get the $500,000 and $400,000 figures? - One-tenth of $10,000,000 is $1,000,000 (one million dollars).
...and...
"Try buying a house and raise your kids on $2,000 a year."
- What is your basis for this comment? Is that the $100,000 divided by 50 ministers?
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Walter
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Post by Walter on May 17, 2006 23:07:30 GMT -5
TO MC 1. Yes I don't know about Alberta, but I know what I am defending. 2. The steps taken by the workers would not have been taken lightly. 3. I have asked Walter to provide the other side of the story. 4. Was it a doctrinal thing? 5. Someone here says they were causing trouble. 6. I am sure if it was someone's moral improprietry then we should remember that old adage about being examples, not looking for them. 1. Do you know what it is you are defending MC ?? 2. And how would you know that ??. I can confirm that the worker steps were made very quickly 3. I am not a 2x2 worker, the burden of proof lies with you, your fellowship and your ministry. Its their side of the story you cannot get. Why is that ? 4. One could say yes it was in a way. When your ministry preaches they are not incorporated and lie about it, when they ARE, then there is a problem. This lead to many more untruthful statements that were disproved by court documentation. Believe me I have 2 four inch binders of documents to back up what I say. 5. Yes asking question caused the workers a lot of trouble because it exposed what they say and what they do, are not the same. Yes they where incorporated, yes there was credit cards with a $30,000 credit limit, yes there was mineral writes, yes the was some moral impropriety and the list goes on.. 6. Remember that old adage about being examples: look to/at the workers for your example Well MC some of us just could not except what the worker’s set as examples. Examples of being dishonest Examples of being immoral Examples of how to dishonor individuals Examples that showed little or no love for individuals that had concerns about the fellowship, but absolute loyalty to the 2x2 system . Check out the only question the workers asked. DO you support this ministry YES or NoI use Dale Shultz (overseer’s) advise in a letter as an example: “it does remain the right thing to respect the decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject “. Now if you wish to support this type of ministry that’s fine with me. I have documentation that shows me this style of conduct is the same through-out the entire 2x2 ministry. This is a very highly organized group that just shuffles its workers. From western Canada : One male worker left the work and went straight to Toronto Gay society One male worker was returned to Europe Two male workers left the work One elder (Sunday) porn charge, sentenced by the courts One High profile name saint now lives in another country under a legal agreement. One convention person received House arrest from the courts I could name the names but what’s the use the workers thought it best to boot the messengers. They knew too much about their deception, dishonesty and corruption. The above is just a very very small part of what the workers wanted kept quite and who was going to notice three or four couples that had been kicked out anyway, especially after the workers slandered them. This brings me back to my # 1 answer.
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Post by Rob O on May 17, 2006 23:19:57 GMT -5
Further to all of this, when Jesus speaks about excommunication, who does He authorise to decide and act on this drastic course? **Hint. Mt.18.**
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Post by as i c it on May 18, 2006 2:45:35 GMT -5
Rob, I don't think the workers are evil, but I worry about the system. And what will be the fate of workers on Judgment Day, if wrongs are done. For example: From the tapes...it's obvious the Jordans were excommunicated when anger was present. To excommunicate believers...when they were seeking "right".... Will workers be judged the same as believers? Or...if wrongs are being done (because of the system) will workers really be in trouble on Judgment Day???
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 18, 2006 3:27:20 GMT -5
The workers and their friends do not exist because of the system. The system exists because of the workers and their friends.
The system does not make the workers and their friends behave a certain way. The workers and their friends make the system work a certain way.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 18, 2006 4:04:07 GMT -5
Teenager wrote: "$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters. If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year." - Where did you get the $500,000 and $400,000 figures? - One-tenth of $10,000,000 is $1,000,000 (one million dollars). ...and... "Try buying a house and raise your kids on $2,000 a year." - What is your basis for this comment? Is that the $100,000 divided by 50 ministers? The contribution Edgar came up with was $500,000 - his $400,000 convention bill = $100,000 even if you take all the other capital expenses the 'estates' would pay for this. Leaving those stinking rich workers with.... $2,000 a year. Edgar said people giving $200 a year... from 2000-3000 friends. I say if it was a tenth then it would be $10,000,000 a year. Average pay = $40,000? maybe $30,000 Lets say $40,000 a tenth is $4,000 $4,000 x 2500 = $10,000,000
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2006 4:42:23 GMT -5
Teenager wrote: "$500,000 - $400,000 = $100,000 - money sent to workers abroad - money for general expense - fuel for cars - travel expenses = not much left oh and $100,000 aint to much spread between 50 minsters. If it were a tenth of everyones income... here that would be aprox $10,000,000 a year." - Where did you get the $500,000 and $400,000 figures? - One-tenth of $10,000,000 is $1,000,000 (one million dollars). ...and... "Try buying a house and raise your kids on $2,000 a year." - What is your basis for this comment? Is that the $100,000 divided by 50 ministers? The contribution Edgar came up with was $500,000 - his $400,000 convention bill = $100,000 even if you take all the other capital expenses the 'estates' would pay for this. Leaving those stinking rich workers with.... $2,000 a year. Edgar said people giving $200 a year... from 2000-3000 friends. I say if it was a tenth then it would be $10,000,000 a year. Average pay = $40,000? maybe $30,000 Lets say $40,000 a tenth is $4,000 $4,000 x 2500 = $10,000,000 Teenager -- are you trying to be realistic?? or what? Do your own math on 2x2 organizational ecconomics if you can't follow mine. Anyone that dares to use mathematics on the 2x2 cost and income situation for a field with 2 to 3 thousand multi-generation paying membership -- modern convention facilities -- and an extremely travel hungry clergy. And the figures quickly reach the multi-million. Again, just to reaffirm the point -- I am NOT suggesting that the cost/income situation is unreasonable for such a highly extensive, and very well managed and highly regulated organizational structure.
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Post by jxr on May 18, 2006 7:59:55 GMT -5
Further to all of this, when Jesus speaks about excommunication, who does He authorise to decide and act on this drastic course? **Hint. Mt.18.** If you're talking about verses 15 thru 19, then I read it as the wronged individual being the one who initiates any "excommunication". And I don't necessarily read it as excommunication as such, just a (perhaps subtle) changing of the friendship status (excommunication is the extreme). I don't see it as a church/group leader dictating the expulsion of an individual. Additionally, this is all about someone sinning against another. You'd have to be sure exactly what the sin was, to avoid executing this grievance procedure over some trivial misunderstanding.
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 18, 2006 8:04:14 GMT -5
Hi "Guest Again" Perhaps there is a homosexual culture in the Catholic Church, or worse (ie the Boston troubles) I am not Catholic but I am uncomfortable with people finding fault with such faiths because I suspect their attack goes deeper than that particular church. Such practices are not condoned by the Catholic Church. My own itinerate ministry is not necessarily celibrate. It is merely more convenient to be celebrate.
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