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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 7:28:23 GMT -5
To "To MC" Hey! I like what you wrote. Yes I don't know about Alberta, but I know what I am defending. The steps taken by the workers would not have been taken lightly. I have asked Walter to provide the other side of the story. Was it a doctrinal thing? Someone here says they were causing trouble. I am sure if it was someone's moral improprietry then we should remember that old adage about being examples, not looking for them.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2006 8:12:30 GMT -5
Edgar, (sorry, I called you Walter for some reason.) What do you think was the reason the workers in Alberta acted against some of the church members? I know nothing about it - I live on the other side of the planet. There are plenty of places in scripture where it says to remove those who are not obedient to your faith. In the OT they were told to just killed them. Yes, getting rid of folks refusing to accept the whims and fancies of a power structure is definately scriptural. It is the spirit behind the descision process to nail Jesus to the cross. It is the spirit behind Jesus advice in Matt 5:11 "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." The major complain the workers made about nearly all the folks in the major wave of excommunications that began in Alberta was simply "insubordination". Refusal to accept the workers divine right to decide what was right and what was wrong. A large number were excommunicated because they refused to forbid other excommunicated folks to come into their homes. Marg Magowan was expelled from the work because she insisted on visiting a familly that had been excommunicated. etc. etc. etc. Check the recordings of the telephone converstations regarding a familly in southern Alberta that were exed when they refused to turn people away from their door. www.anotherstep.net/Realfiles/Then there were those who were excommunicated because they questioned the workers decission to excommunicate their friends. And so it went on!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by aafad on May 16, 2006 8:28:17 GMT -5
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Post by l on May 16, 2006 8:29:25 GMT -5
Hi Walter. Yes, again, I don't have the facts. Do you? From my experience with controversies they seem to revolve around just two things 1 - moral impropriety 2 - doctrinal issues (usually leading to number 1) Probably both these issues above are involved, complicated with issues of principle, loyalty and personality. That is usually how it goes. I smell the usual rat in the way the issue is presented on this board. If someone has an issue to present then you present both sides of the story. Otherwise you are taking sides, and are biased. Your hostility towards the workers tells me you have an entrenched bias. I think everyone would love to hear the 2x2 side of things but maybe they just refuse to speak up...like Edgar said it's all documented all anyone needs to do to learn more is use the google search engine
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 8:34:24 GMT -5
Hi Edgar, yes, I heard those tapes. They are heart wrenching - people with loyalties to their life-long faith, and life-long friends.
You said it was insubordination. I figured that much out, but there had to be something they were being insubordinate about. This is what is missing in this issue.
Could any of those people go back? Would they start their own church?
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Post by To MC on May 16, 2006 8:48:00 GMT -5
I figured that much out, but there had to be something they were being insubordinate about. This is what is missing in this issue.
At the point of the excoms recorded on the tapes the issue was insubordination alone. These people were removed from the flash point. Listen more carefully - the workers themselves define the grounds for excommunication - "do you support this ministry, yes or no". "We need more time to pray". Workers - "we take that as a no". Do you realize that one of the couples referred to here was the elder and his wife's children? You said in another post that you know what you are defending. No you don't. You are blindly defending the indefensible here.
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Post by regarding MC on May 16, 2006 8:56:02 GMT -5
In a separate thread, MC stated that people outside of the 2x2 fellowship cannot receive salvation. Is there any wonder that MC wants the Alberta coverup to continue...
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 9:46:17 GMT -5
To "regarding MC" Hi, I don't recall saying those exact words.
when asked "And do you believe salvation can come to those who are not in your fellowship? " I stated,
That's awfully hard to answer. I bet if I threw one at you like that you wouldn't take the time?
It is written that God knows those who love him. We are not to judge anyone - but, we can judge what is right. Christ showed us what is right. It wasn't in good works or giving to the poor, but in following him. "Following" doesn't mean literally, it means example.
When I meet people who don't have any feeling for these things, or who don't want to follow Christ's example, I wonder if they would be happy in the company of God.
I will cut and paste something from this to that post, one Jewish historian, when writing about the answer Jesus gave to the Herodian about the tribute money, stated that Jesus gave a vague and unsatisfactory answer. Did Jesus answer the question, or didn't he? (Render unto Caesar ....)
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 10:04:14 GMT -5
Hi, this statement, "do you support this ministry, yes or no" was not said in a vacuum.
Supporting the ministry in what? Where is the context? What triggered this?
If no context is provided, it suggests to me the context doesn't help your case.
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Post by To MC on May 16, 2006 10:24:53 GMT -5
Hi, this statement, "do you support this ministry, yes or no" was not said in a vacuum.
Supporting the ministry in what? Where is the context? What triggered this?
If no context is provided, it suggests to me the context doesn't help your case.
I'm sorry, but you are simply being blindly stubborn. The context that are asking for is this: the elders allowed previously excommunicated people into their home. The workers defined this alone as the grounds for excommunication. The elder and wife asked for time to pray about it (put it into context, if you will). The workers refused to allow this couple to research, pray or seek God's direction. Very clear and unacceptable to anyone more interested fairness.
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as i c it more info please
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Post by as i c it more info please on May 16, 2006 11:31:49 GMT -5
IMO, MC is a very admirable 2 x2, with the honesty ( and courage) to face the truth--even when it isn't easy. And I, for one, truly appreciate the cost she paying to do so! (While she loyally holds to what she does believe--she's also willing to examine them, in light of what anyone here posts otherwise: and will admit (and respond) with honesty--to what she finds.
Who could ask for more??? That is all I want from others in our church...beginning with the ministry, but sure not ending there!
With the Alberta Excommunications, she's playing "Catch Up". She doesn't have the information of those who were involved: or maybe all the information that has been posted. (That should be obvious from some of the things she's posted). And--I'm in the same boat... (With Alberta girl I asked for clarification of what she posted: more information as to who did what...and received no answer...) so--don't "condemn" us 2 x2's for not willing to face the facts....because...obviously...we are! We're asking you (in the know) to give them to us...
Meanwhile, MC, stay put (please) on this board. The educated conversations: and the on-going debate with facts--are what is needed here. And I really appreciate your willingness to face the unpleasant facts.
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Post by bullpoopie on May 16, 2006 12:02:16 GMT -5
I am getting really sick of all this bullsh-. I have heard the tapes, read all the documents, I know the people involved on both sides personally, and it's all pretty clear: there was all kinds of corrupt stuff going on in the fellowship, both with the friends and the workers, and rather than admit to wrong and deal with things the proper way, Willis Propp, the snake of all snakes, decided it was best to get rid of any witnesses so he sent his royal henchmen to complete the task. Someone said something earlier about how they thought the whole issue of the mass excommunication was people attending meetings with those who had been booted, and in some way that is correct, that is where the "mass" came in, however the first domino to fall, so to speak, was when the couple heard on the tapes went to the workers with a concern about a fellow member of the group who had tried to bribe them to keep quiet about some improper and criminal activity that he had been up to. Being devoted and well-meaning followers all their lives, they sought council from the workers, and what they received in that way was the admonition to be quiet and let it all go, however they did not feel right about that because innocent lives would be at risk if they did, and they expressed this to Mr Propp, but his mind was clearly on how the group would appear if such news got out rather than what was the right thing to do. As far as the homosexuality issue, I really don't care what goes on amongst the workers or anybody else as long as we're not talking about abuse. I do dislike the vehement denial of any wrong that seems to abundant, but as long as all parties involved in the activity are in agreement then it's fine with me. However, the "holier than thou" attitude and prevalent condescention towards everyone else that is exhibited by these same presumably guilty workers, and some who are known to be guilty, and don't start with me about how we don't know what they did... I know that one guy got ousted from the work because he was caught sneaking into a young girls bedroom and I know that another was asked to leave because he had molested a number of children in his field... you hard-liners can deny all you want but the fact is there are some serious creeps in the work, sometimes I think they are drawn to it because they figure they can do as they please once they're a worker because they have the trust of the friends and they know that rather than expose them for what they are, the work will always cover their asses and keep them safe and happy. What pisses me off is how they strut around in their holy and humble way, acting like they are so damn good, all the while they're molesting and raping and swindling and engaging in other behaviors that they would readily condemn anybody else for far less than, but they're just fine. How can anybody justify such a life? How can anyone even justify going around acting all superior in the belief that you're part of the only right way? I guess it's all kind of a sucession in a way, but it's a sick one to me, whether you're covering up a child pornographer or thinking that you're neighbor should come to meetings because he's not saved. A bigger passle of pretentious, arrogant, self-righteous fools I have never seen.
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Post by trying again on May 16, 2006 14:18:38 GMT -5
Ok, MC. Since you beat around the bush on your first reply, let's try this simple question again. It really is nothing more than either a "yes" or a "no". No explanation is needed. Just a reply.
Can those outside of your fellowship receive salvation?
Just a yes or no, please.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2006 14:19:29 GMT -5
There are many issues in the 2x2 gossip flora that would be difficult to ever achieve an absolute moral verdict on the "rights or wrongs" involved. Just the nature of a cult creates a massive 'grey zone' as far as establishing the moral value of integrity in many events.
However the mass excommunication issue that started in Alberta -- and then spilled arround the world, IS such an issue where very very few people (including the workers directly involved) can honestly deny the enormous and unquestionable moral fiasko that it proved to be. I have never heard any leading worker of recent years who would lend any open approval of the chain of worker descisions that set this open and public 'hate campaign' in motion- It was this 'hate and contempt spirit' that ALL loyal workers and loyal friends eventually were infected by, that was neccesary to make the mass-excommunications happen.
However it is deeply ingrained in the 2x2 mindset that 'the work' is really God on the earth, thus NO ONE can ever entertain the thought that mistakes can be made by anything else than isolated individual workers ---- The Alberta fiasko was authorized and supported by the complete (and well informed) international 2x2 leadership network. This is what makes it impossible to ever expect admission of failure.-- however obvious and evident it may be. (The only defence is "stick your head in the sand" and pretend it never happened!!) This kind of dishonesty is the root of 2x2 corruption.
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Post by ex-teenager on May 16, 2006 14:51:10 GMT -5
Hi Edgar, yes, I heard those tapes. They are heart wrenching - people with loyalties to their life-long faith, and life-long friends. You said it was insubordination. I figured that much out, but there had to be something they were being insubordinate about. This is what is missing in this issue. Could any of those people go back? Would they start their own church? I agree... the MAIN issue hasnt been revealed.. simply what happened after some people raised issues.. then the chain of excommunications.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2006 15:58:57 GMT -5
Hi Edgar, yes, I heard those tapes. They are heart wrenching - people with loyalties to their life-long faith, and life-long friends. You said it was insubordination. I figured that much out, but there had to be something they were being insubordinate about. This is what is missing in this issue. Could any of those people go back? Would they start their own church? I agree... the MAIN issue hasnt been revealed.. simply what happened after some people raised issues.. then the chain of excommunications. Actually as far as I know -- no one has considered going back. The reasons they left, are every bit as much in place as when they left -- I don't really think that there was any deeper reason for the excommunications other than a political marking of 'who is boss'. At that time, it was extremely important for the workers. A person has to remember that this happened in one of the worlds most concentrated 2x2 areas -- Someone said that Calgary and Edmonton each had 30 to 40 Sunday morning meetings -- extremely high concentration of friends in the rural areas as well -- literally thousands of friends. A multi-million dollar enterprize!! A few hundred lost here and there was considered an acceptable loss, to make sure the others tow the line. Saskatchewan right next door -- also with literally thousands of 2x2ers. Power is extra important when so many people are involved.
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zing
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Post by zing on May 16, 2006 21:55:06 GMT -5
Edgar, how did it end up that you came to live in Sweden? Also, can you share more on the topic of the 'multi-million dollar enterprize'.
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Post by Freud on May 16, 2006 22:14:10 GMT -5
Zing - this is Freudian Projection. You accuse someone else of something you are doing, or involved in. Edgar can't even begin to make such a claim about his former church, where everything was so freely given to him. Wonder how much he pays now for his hollowed out form of worship.
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talk about judgmentalism
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Post by talk about judgmentalism on May 16, 2006 22:31:31 GMT -5
Wonder how much he pays now for his hollowed out form of worship. wonder how much you pay now for your hollowed [sp] out form of worship...
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 22:38:07 GMT -5
To bullpoopie
It seems to me you have had a bitter experience in the Truth.
I am happy to defer to judgements of people closer to the issue. But, like with the claim of Edgar that our faith is a "multi-million dollar enterprize" I need to take careful stock of the motives and mentality of the people how make claims - not against Alberta workers, but against all those in my faith.
The claim of homosexuality. I have no idea, but intuitively if I wanted to be a homosexual I would seek out the homosexual culture, and leave my faith. Very, very, very hard thing to practice in the work. I think this is another one of those "multi-miion dollar enterprize" statements.
You claim that Willis was covering up for something. If that is true then he would be derrelict in duty. Why would someone leave something they lived for, because someone else is not living it?
And having covered up something (implied sexual impropriety) you mention two people who were removed from the work for this very thing.
Finally, you write "all the while they're molesting and raping and swindling ..." This is more of Edgar's "million dollar enterprize." It is precisely 180 degrees opposite to the truth, and is a load of bullpoopie.
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 22:45:07 GMT -5
Hi "Talk about judgmentalism"
Speaking for myself, I pay nothing:
I go to a home service: No overheads, no literature, no government lobbying costs, no ministerial salaries, no fancy house or fancy cars for the priests
Remember the Baker's "Praise the Lord Ministry." Some wags said PTO stood for 'Pass The Loot." I used to laugh...
JW's, Mormons and others pay ten percent gross wage per week.
What church are you in? How much do you pay?
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zing
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Post by zing on May 16, 2006 22:48:01 GMT -5
Freud honey, I live in Alberta..... Edgar has information which would be helpful to me... your view is that he hasn't the 'right' to 'condemn' what he was once part of.. this is how you 'feel'... however, realistically, the only persons who can condemn, are exactly those who 'lived to tell the tale'... and the tale does need to be told...
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 23:01:56 GMT -5
To Trying Again You wrote "Ok, MC. Since you beat around the bush on your first reply, let's try this simple question again. It really is nothing more than either a "yes" or a "no". No explanation is needed. Just a reply. Can those outside of your fellowship receive salvation?
Hi, a simple answer is "YES" Consider those who yearn for relationship with God who have lived under Communism; Islam; paganism; the Catholic Church in its worst days, people in nations and ages when no gospel was preached.
By all means, Yes.
However. To the question of people who know the truth and reject it. The answer is No. And worse, sometimes the gospel was preached to people for the expressed purpose of condemning them. Which is to say, in the Judgement such people won't the excuse that they didn't know. This is what happened to many in Israel.
Regards "beating around the bush." Please notice how Jesus rarely gave a direct reply to his critics, and often, not even to his own followers.
Now, let me ask of you a question: where would you yourself draw the line with the standards required of God?
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Post by to MC on May 16, 2006 23:02:33 GMT -5
MC, good to see you're still around. You have some questions that were asked of you in other threads. Perhaps you could answer them...?
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Post by to MC on May 16, 2006 23:06:04 GMT -5
Hi "Talk about judgmentalism" Speaking for myself, I pay nothing: I go to a home service: No overheads, no literature, no government lobbying costs, no ministerial salaries, no fancy house or fancy cars for the priests Remember the Baker's "Praise the Lord Ministry." Some wags said PTO stood for 'Pass The Loot." I used to laugh... JW's, Mormons and others pay ten percent gross wage per week. What church are you in? How much do you pay? MC, this is all well and great, but it doesn't elevate your church over any other just because you meet in a home. and yes, 2x2ism does have overheads to pay for (convention food isn't free, somebody paid for it), not having literature doesn't elevate your church above any other church (it just means you don't have any literature), not having government lobbying costs doesn't elevate your church over any other church (it just means you don't have any government lobbying costs)... perhaps you're catching on here, but then again, perhaps you're not. tell me, can a person outside of the 2x2 fellowship receive salvation? yes or no?
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Post by to MC on May 16, 2006 23:07:23 GMT -5
MC,
can a Christian outside of the 2x2 fellowship receive salvation? yes or no.
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Post by MildlyCurious on May 16, 2006 23:13:00 GMT -5
Hi All, MC again. This is the Albert site. Someone set up a MildlyCurious site, so I had better get off this ...
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Post by Rob O on May 16, 2006 23:21:28 GMT -5
MC,
So you never contribute to the costs of running your church? Conventions cost money. Workers have living expenses - food, travel, accommodation, clothes, stationery, etc. Halls have to be hired for mission meetings. The list goes on.
Yet you freely admit that you never contribute towards these financial costs? Don't you think that's selfish?
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