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Post by snow on Aug 6, 2023 17:52:16 GMT -5
There were more pages to the above, but those 2 were the ones that really hit home for me. This is what the friends are up against. It answers the question of why Dale, Barry and Ray haven't stepped down. Apparently overseers are chosen by god and have the spirit of god and until that leaves them, they aren't going anywhere. Even when it's evident that if what they did was wrong.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 8, 2023 19:45:36 GMT -5
Okay, this thread was started about when is it time to go to the media. A conversation with workers and overseers in Milltown really hit home for me. Basically an overseer was asked how many signatures it would take before they would step down. Apparently there were 800 signatures and no response and one worker changed their email address. The following is the conversation. I'm beginning to think that the only way to get the attention of these overseers that won't step down when that many friends have asked them to is to bring a class action suit against them. Next page where he says literally if you don't want to come to our meetings you can leave because until God tells me to step down I'm not going to. You said you would be out the door if God's spirit was taken away. Would you know that God's spirit was taken away? Samson didn't.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2023 19:49:18 GMT -5
Here in WA State a worker got taken down for far less by friends and elders...
There needs to be a way here to do that for serious cases like this...
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Post by Dan on Aug 8, 2023 22:36:36 GMT -5
There were more pages to the above, but those 2 were the ones that really hit home for me. This is what the friends are up against. It answers the question of why Dale, Barry and Ray haven't stepped down. Apparently overseers are chosen by god and have the spirit of god and until that leaves them, they aren't going anywhere. Even when it's evident that if what they did was wrong.
I wish these Workers could just give point blank answers. If they made bad decisions, why not just explain their thought process that led to those poor choices and fess-up to any horrible mistakes? Not everyone is capable of making sound executive decisions and the Friends wouldn't likely agree with their reasoning, but I think most of them would respect a sincere effort to provide an explanation.
Excerpt; "We are trying to do our part and be God-led. We believe in laying on of hands...Godly men saying God has chosen someone. It has to be God's choice. Prayers are the most powerful thing here. God owns this whole project. It's within his realm to solve the problems."
What a load of BS! We know they believe in the 'Laying on of hands".. That's the problem and they've got to stop it. "God owns the whole project"... Talk about passing the buck.. I suspect God would love to wash his hands of the whole sorted mess.. And any Godly men would know that S.A. is taboo, and "Its within the Overseer's realm to solve the problems".
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2023 1:14:22 GMT -5
An unbeliever seems to have a better understanding... In my opinion, the only 'rule' of any religious organization should be to let their god lead. No man made rules or threats of hell. If god can speak to the hierarchy, god can speak to the layman. The inner voice or so-called holy spirit will lead. Right? I can't help thinking those who claim authority are nothing but "puffed up" and power hungry. It's easy to see the arrogance in the way some of the the workers rule. Power has most certainly corrupted. CSA has proven that.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 9, 2023 2:26:29 GMT -5
There were more pages to the above, but those 2 were the ones that really hit home for me. This is what the friends are up against. It answers the question of why Dale, Barry and Ray haven't stepped down. Apparently overseers are chosen by god and have the spirit of god and until that leaves them, they aren't going anywhere. Even when it's evident that if what they did was wrong.
I wish these Workers could just give point blank answers. If they made bad decisions, why not just explain their thought process that led to those poor choices and fess-up to any horrible mistakes? Not everyone is capable of making sound executive decisions and the Friends wouldn't likely agree with their reasoning, but I think most of them would respect a sincere effort to provide an explanation.
Excerpt; "We are trying to do our part and be God-led. We believe in laying on of hands...Godly men saying God has chosen someone. It has to be God's choice. Prayers are the most powerful thing here. God owns this whole project. It's within his realm to solve the problems."
What a load of BS! We know they believe in the 'Laying on of hands".. That's the problem and they've got to stop it. "God owns the whole project"... Talk about passing the buck.. I suspect God would love to wash his hands of the whole sorted mess.. And any Godly men would know that S.A. is taboo, and "Its within the Overseer's realm to solve the problems".
"Sordid"
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2023 14:42:38 GMT -5
Okay, this thread was started about when is it time to go to the media. A conversation with workers and overseers in Milltown really hit home for me. Basically an overseer was asked how many signatures it would take before they would step down. Apparently there were 800 signatures and no response and one worker changed their email address. The following is the conversation. I'm beginning to think that the only way to get the attention of these overseers that won't step down when that many friends have asked them to is to bring a class action suit against them. Next page where he says literally if you don't want to come to our meetings you can leave because until God tells me to step down I'm not going to. You said you would be out the door if God's spirit was taken away. Would you know that God's spirit was taken away? Samson didn't. Well that's a question for them since that's what they appear to believe. But those who have facilitated the continuance of abuse by moving workers instead of kicking them out, clearly still believe they are doing that with the spirit of God.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2023 14:45:51 GMT -5
There were more pages to the above, but those 2 were the ones that really hit home for me. This is what the friends are up against. It answers the question of why Dale, Barry and Ray haven't stepped down. Apparently overseers are chosen by god and have the spirit of god and until that leaves them, they aren't going anywhere. Even when it's evident that if what they did was wrong. I wish these Workers could just give point blank answers. If they made bad decisions, why not just explain their thought process that led to those poor choices and fess-up to any horrible mistakes? Not everyone is capable of making sound executive decisions and the Friends wouldn't likely agree with their reasoning, but I think most of them would respect a sincere effort to provide an explanation.
Excerpt; "We are trying to do our part and be God-led. We believe in laying on of hands...Godly men saying God has chosen someone. It has to be God's choice. Prayers are the most powerful thing here. God owns this whole project. It's within his realm to solve the problems."
What a load of BS! We know they believe in the 'Laying on of hands".. That's the problem and they've got to stop it. "God owns the whole project"... Talk about passing the buck.. I suspect God would love to wash his hands of the whole sorted mess.. And any Godly men would know that S.A. is taboo, and "Its within the Overseer's realm to solve the problems".
It's really quite unbelievable that they still assert that what they did was with God's blessing. It's all 'God's project'. That is the most unbelievable belief imo. How could they even think that it is ever right to support predators over children's safety!
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2023 15:11:13 GMT -5
It's really quite unbelievable that they still assert that what they did was with God's blessing. It's all 'God's project'. That is the most unbelievable belief imo. How could they even think that it is ever right to support predators over children's safety! They see their organisation as God's kingdom, and don't understand that God's kingdom, God's project, is within the hearts of individuals. Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
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Post by chuck on Aug 10, 2023 20:57:30 GMT -5
I wish these Workers could just give point blank answers. If they made bad decisions, why not just explain their thought process that led to those poor choices and fess-up to any horrible mistakes? Not everyone is capable of making sound executive decisions and the Friends wouldn't likely agree with their reasoning, but I think most of them would respect a sincere effort to provide an explanation.
Excerpt; "We are trying to do our part and be God-led. We believe in laying on of hands...Godly men saying God has chosen someone. It has to be God's choice. Prayers are the most powerful thing here. God owns this whole project. It's within his realm to solve the problems."
What a load of BS! We know they believe in the 'Laying on of hands".. That's the problem and they've got to stop it. "God owns the whole project"... Talk about passing the buck.. I suspect God would love to wash his hands of the whole sorted mess.. And any Godly men would know that S.A. is taboo, and "Its within the Overseer's realm to solve the problems".
It's really quite unbelievable that they still assert that what they did was with God's blessing. It's all 'God's project'. That is the most unbelievable belief imo. How could they even think that it is ever right to support predators over children's safety! It is God's blessing and God's Proiect. God= the highest ideals in people's lives and we are witnessing what that is for these head honchos.......doesn't look pretty does it!. It also explains why people indoctrinated by the workers go along with it......they worship(ascribe worth) the same God(highest ideals). Note, highest ideals does not mean that the benchmark us the same for everyone, it means the ideals people strive to attain in their lives be it all women should have buns ect ect ect. So naturally its Gods blessing and project because the whole thing is a self fulfilling prophecy.... This is a result of not understand the concept of the word spelt G O D in Hebrew stories and scripture. Another way to explain their God is themselves with a loud hailer!.....
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patsy
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Post by patsy on Aug 13, 2023 8:34:11 GMT -5
I would bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the real fear behind exposing the abuse to the wide world is not the abuse itself, but that the church operates on money laundering schemes. If the IRS gets a whiff of this, the church is done as we know it. The church does not have IRS tax status, and has never reported income. HUGE red flag and could take down the entire U.S. faction of the church like Al Capone. Shining a light on this "ghost church" to the wider public surely scares the bejeebus out of the fat cats at the top. who knows how much they are sitting on, but you know it's likely millions.
One further thought- if the church is sued, even a civil suit for their shenanigans of moving abusers around, the church's financial state will come to light.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2023 11:00:56 GMT -5
I would bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the real fear behind exposing the abuse to the wide world is not the abuse itself, but that the church operates on money laundering schemes. If the IRS gets a whiff of this, the church is done as we know it. The church does not have IRS tax status, and has never reported income. HUGE red flag and could take down the entire U.S. faction of the church like Al Capone. Shining a light on this "ghost church" to the wider public surely scares the bejeebus out of the fat cats at the top. who knows how much they are sitting on, but you know it's likely millions.
One further thought- if the church is sued, even a civil suit for their shenanigans of moving abusers around, the church's financial state will come to light.
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were...
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Post by Dan on Aug 13, 2023 11:30:07 GMT -5
I would bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the real fear behind exposing the abuse to the wide world is not the abuse itself, but that the church operates on money laundering schemes. If the IRS gets a whiff of this, the church is done as we know it. The church does not have IRS tax status, and has never reported income. HUGE red flag and could take down the entire U.S. faction of the church like Al Capone. Shining a light on this "ghost church" to the wider public surely scares the bejeebus out of the fat cats at the top. who knows how much they are sitting on, but you know it's likely millions.
One further thought- if the church is sued, even a civil suit for their shenanigans of moving abusers around, the church's financial state will come to light.
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were...
"Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file" link
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2023 11:41:18 GMT -5
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were...
"Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file" link
The Simpltons of TMB movment will disregard your post in less than 1 day, guaranteed...I wonder where simplton is now?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2023 11:43:40 GMT -5
As I've mentioned before handling it the old way would mean ZERO repeat offenders or multiple victims...
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Post by Dan on Aug 13, 2023 11:51:51 GMT -5
That is true, a couple of mean protective dogs would certainly dissuade perverts.. Now if we could only get some of the enabling parents to go along with the program
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2023 14:47:16 GMT -5
That is true, a couple of mean protective dogs would certainly dissuade perverts.. Now if we could only get some of the enabling parents to go along with the program That's something that really bothers me. Parents that don't believe their children and do what the workers tell them to do about reporting. That is a whole new level of brainwashing that I just can't seem to wrap my head around. Kids depend on us to keep them safe. It's bad enough that some worker who they've been raised to trust and respect breaks that trust, but then for the parent to believe their abuser over them!! I don't know how you heal from that kind of a blow.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 13, 2023 15:06:02 GMT -5
As I've mentioned before handling it the old way would mean ZERO repeat offenders or multiple victims... Maybe this meme could be directed at the fathers, uncles and brothers of abused children in your church. It does surprise me that the abusers are still able to talk and urinate.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2023 16:58:53 GMT -5
As I've mentioned before handling it the old way would mean ZERO repeat offenders or multiple victims... Maybe this meme could be directed at the fathers, uncles and brothers of abused children in your church. It does surprise me that the abusers are still able to talk and urinate. We all know what I think of pacifism right?
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patsy
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Post by patsy on Aug 15, 2023 13:21:46 GMT -5
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were...
"Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt" and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file" link
Dear Sirs, with all due respect, the church must still meet requirements of a 501(c)(3) as defined by the IRS in order to obtain tax-exempt status.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 17:03:07 GMT -5
"Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt" and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file" link
Dear Sirs, with all due respect, the church must still meet requirements of a 501(c)(3) as defined by the IRS in order to obtain tax-exempt status. The IRS rules were posted to you in dan's post by link. You are off slightly...nothing has to be done officially...
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patsy
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Post by patsy on Aug 15, 2023 18:34:07 GMT -5
I mean, the tax exemption requirements are very clear. Here is just one where you all are in murky waters: The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction. www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizations
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 21:55:06 GMT -5
I mean, the tax exemption requirements are very clear. Here is just one where you all are in murky waters: The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction. www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizationsMurky would be right, IRS code is notorious for being as vague as possible. None of what you listed can be pinned to the 2x2's with any certainty...one should note "may be" not "shall be"...you'll need a different angle...
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 16, 2023 7:37:24 GMT -5
I would bet, dollars to doughnuts, that the real fear behind exposing the abuse to the wide world is not the abuse itself, but that the church operates on money laundering schemes. If the IRS gets a whiff of this, the church is done as we know it. The church does not have IRS tax status, and has never reported income. HUGE red flag and could take down the entire U.S. faction of the church like Al Capone. Shining a light on this "ghost church" to the wider public surely scares the bejeebus out of the fat cats at the top. who knows how much they are sitting on, but you know it's likely millions. One further thought- if the church is sued, even a civil suit for their shenanigans of moving abusers around, the church's financial state will come to light.
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were... No Tax problem. It is complicated so you should look it up. That's better than speculation.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 16, 2023 7:46:05 GMT -5
This has been debated countless times here, its questionable at best if there is any tax problem no matter how many wish it were... No Tax problem. It is complicated so you should look it up. That's better than speculation. There is no employee/employer relationship, (That can only be established by signed agreements.) That is only proven by a contract being signed also with W-2 relationships. Trusts that have been established have been written with the advise of an attorney. They are not charitable trust therefore no tax deduction for payments given to others. Money put in the trust is after income deposits. I remember this idea being tested back in the late '40's and early '50's. The charge failed.
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Post by snow on Aug 16, 2023 15:48:11 GMT -5
No Tax problem. It is complicated so you should look it up. That's better than speculation. There is no employee/employer relationship, (That can only be established by signed agreements.) That is only proven by a contract being signed also with W-2 relationships. Trusts that have been established have been written with the advise of an attorney. They are not charitable trust therefore no tax deduction for payments given to others. Money put in the trust is after income deposits. I remember this idea being tested back in the late '40's and early '50's. The charge failed. What about wills that clearly state leaving money to the workers. I know my parents left them money in their will. Maybe Canada is different? How does the US handle estates being left to the workers? Especially since we know they do have a registered name in some countries?
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Post by fixit on Aug 16, 2023 16:09:40 GMT -5
I mean, the tax exemption requirements are very clear. Here is just one where you all are in murky waters: The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction. www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/exemption-requirements-501c3-organizationsIt could be argued that someone like Dean Bruer had "substantial influence over the organisation" and "received excess benefit". One year on the workers list Dean Bruer was listed as "visiting fields". Perhaps they should stop referring to workers as "staff"?
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Post by deepdeep on Aug 16, 2023 16:15:08 GMT -5
There is no employee/employer relationship, (That can only be established by signed agreements.) That is only proven by a contract being signed also with W-2 relationships. Trusts that have been established have been written with the advise of an attorney. They are not charitable trust therefore no tax deduction for payments given to others. Money put in the trust is after income deposits. I remember this idea being tested back in the late '40's and early '50's. The charge failed. What about wills that clearly state leaving money to the workers. I know my parents left them money in their will. Maybe Canada is different? How does the US handle estates being left to the workers? Especially since we know they do have a registered name in some countries? The money part of these discussions continues to fascinate. I've read speculative posts that claim the 2x2 holders of the purse are sitting on truly gobsmacking amounts of wealth. Amounts that are not easily hidden. If true....what is being done with it? Does it just sit there? If it is the case that the money is used for health care and costs of elderly folks....even a lot of money runs out very quickly.
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