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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 22:11:14 GMT -5
** This is Wiki information it does NOT come from the Vaudois church historians themselves. The RCC had half truth information history about the Vaudois also. I'm sure they lie about their origins just like the 2x2's. You/atheist don't KNOW what you are talking about. Stick with your flying magic broom.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 22:11:32 GMT -5
So says Nate: "Jesus gospel message Jesus SAVES and the New Test apostolic ministry and fellowship method is the PLAN God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit PLAN to be continued in every generation" The Bible says the church shall continue ("gates of hell shall not prevail against it)--but it does not instruct or say that God planned for the 2x2 ministry to continue til the end of time, nor that only through the 2x2 ministry can someone be saved. So, What do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. You Don't think Jesus meant to continue in this way/method, message to ALL nations to the time of His returns again.Here is the GREAT Commission in Matthew 28:16:20 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
We read the apostles began to go forth from Jerusalem to ALL nations Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 11, 2020 22:13:37 GMT -5
I mean someone else demonstrated something else to be fact. This, I just reported that you had it wrong. ** No, I believe you are wrong with your report. So - You also believe a comic strip character was sent by God.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 22:19:36 GMT -5
** No, I believe you are wrong with your report. So - You also believe a comic strip character was sent by God. Which comic strip character sent by God, are you talking about? You mean Valiant Thor. You need to check out the FACT when Thor comic strip was created and when the REAL Valiant and Donn Thor from the Interior planet of Venus arrived on earth. Then you will understand who is came first Valiant Thor or the comic Thor, character, BobW.
How did the creator of the comic character Thor, get that name? was it from the REAL Thor from Interior planet of Venus? Did he know about the REAL Valiant Thor.
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Post by Annan on Jan 11, 2020 22:38:54 GMT -5
I'm sure they lie about their origins just like the 2x2's. You/atheist don't KNOW what you are talking about. Stick with your flying magic broom. Yes, Nathan, we do. You need to come up with better insults.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 22:42:36 GMT -5
You/atheist don't KNOW what you are talking about. Stick with your flying magic broom. Yes, Nathan, we do. You need to come up wit better insults. That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. You don't believe in God, Christ or the Holy Spirit, heaven or hell, Satan and so on... So, you better stick to what you know best, your magic broom and spells. And I wonder where you get the magic power from?
I know you don't have the power you must get from higher up... I don't believe you get your magic power for spells from God
At Least 43 Things God Hates
1. Homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22). 2. Bestiality (Leviticus 18:23) 3. Idols, and the materials used to make idols (Deuteronomy 7:25) 4. Blemished sacrifices (Deuteronomy 17:1) 5. Worshipping the sun, moon or stars (Deuteronomy 17:3-4)
6. Divination (Deuteronomy 18:10) 7. Astrology (Deuteronomy 18:10) 8. Enchanters (Deuteronomy 18:10) 9. Witches (Deuteronomy 18:10) 10. Charmers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 11. Wizards (Deuteronomy 18:11)
12. Necromancers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 13. Transvestitism (Deuteronomy 22:5) 14. The hire of a lady (Deuteronomy 23:18) 15. Remarriage to a former wife after she has been married to another man (Deuteronomy 24:4)
16. Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16) 17. Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5) 18. The wicked (Psalm 11:5) 19. Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5) 20. The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)
21. A proud look (Proverbs 6:16-17) 22. A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17) 23. Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)
24. A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18) 25. Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18) 26. A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19) 27. Anyone who sows discord among brethren (Proverbs 6:19)
www.livingtheway.org/43things.html
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 11, 2020 22:43:15 GMT -5
So - You also believe a comic strip character was sent by God. Which comic strip character sent by God, are you talking about? You mean Valiant Thor. You need to check out the FACT when the Valiant Thor comic strip was created and when the REAL Valiant and Donn Thor from the Interior planet of Venus arrived on earth. Then you will understand who is came first Valiant Thor or the comic Thor, character, BobW.
How did the creator of the comic character Thor, get that name? was it from the REAL Thor from Interior planet of Venus? Did he know about the REAL Valiant Thor.He got it from the same place Dr. Stranges got it -- he pulled out of his butt.
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 22:57:05 GMT -5
Which comic strip character sent by God, are you talking about? You mean Valiant Thor. You need to check out the FACT when the Valiant Thor comic strip was created and when the REAL Valiant and Donn Thor from the Interior planet of Venus arrived on earth. Then you will understand who is came first Valiant Thor or the comic Thor, character, BobW.
How did the creator of the comic character Thor, get that name? was it from the REAL Thor from Interior planet of Venus? Did he know about the REAL Valiant Thor. He got it from the same place Dr. Stranges got it -- he pulled out of his butt. And you pull Valiant Thor sent by God comes from the comic character Thor, out of your butt too, eh.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2020 23:11:27 GMT -5
Yes, Nathan, we do. You need to come up wit better insults. That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. You don't believe in God, Christ or the Holy Spirit, heaven or hell, Satan and so on... So, you better stick to what you know best, your magic broom and spells. And I wonder where you get the magic power from?
I know you don't have the power you must get from higher up... I don't believe you get your magic power for spells from God
At Least 43 Things God Hates
1. Homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22). 2. Bestiality (Leviticus 18:23) 3. Idols, and the materials used to make idols (Deuteronomy 7:25) 4. Blemished sacrifices (Deuteronomy 17:1) 5. Worshipping the sun, moon or stars (Deuteronomy 17:3-4)
6. Divination (Deuteronomy 18:10) 7. Astrology (Deuteronomy 18:10) 8. Enchanters (Deuteronomy 18:10) 9. Witches (Deuteronomy 18:10) 10. Charmers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 11. Wizards (Deuteronomy 18:11)
12. Necromancers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 13. Transvestitism (Deuteronomy 22:5) 14. The hire of a lady (Deuteronomy 23:18) 15. Remarriage to a former wife after she has been married to another man (Deuteronomy 24:4)
16. Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16) 17. Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5) 18. The wicked (Psalm 11:5) 19. Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5) 20. The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)
21. A proud look (Proverbs 6:16-17) 22. A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17) 23. Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)
24. A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18) 25. Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18) 26. A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19) 27. Anyone who sows discord among brethren (Proverbs 6:19)
www.livingtheway.org/43things.htmlOh ......but that is the old Testament, it was done away with. Remember you can work on Sunday now ( not that it worries me) because the old was replaced with the new. [This was previously stated in a post].
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 11, 2020 23:17:42 GMT -5
So says Nate: "Jesus gospel message Jesus SAVES and the New Test apostolic ministry and fellowship method is the PLAN God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit PLAN to be continued in every generation" The Bible says the church shall continue ("gates of hell shall not prevail against it)--but it does not instruct or say that God planned for the 2x2 ministry to continue til the end of time, nor that only through the 2x2 ministry can someone be saved. So, What do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. You Don't think Jesus meant to continue in this way/method, message to ALL nations to the time of His returns again.No, I don't think the "gospel of the kingdom" was a particular method of ministry and fellowship/worship held in homes. This article explains is pretty well. www.gotquestions.org/gospel-of-the-kingdom.html
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Post by Annan on Jan 11, 2020 23:23:03 GMT -5
That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. The 2x2's taught my father that their ministry was of the lineage of the apostles. When it came to light that a man started the 2x2's, they admitted that they only implied such. What is that NOT a lie? Does your god approve of deceiving liars?
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 23:24:32 GMT -5
So, What do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. You Don't think Jesus meant to continue in this way/method, message to ALL nations to the time of His returns again. No, I don't think the "gospel of the kingdom" was a particular method of ministry and fellowship/worship held in homes. This article explains is pretty well. www.gotquestions.org/gospel-of-the-kingdom.html The people who wrote the article don't KNOW there is historical church document that the Vaudois and those like them through the ages, had KEPT Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship/Worship in the homes of believers for nearly 1800 yrs... Then the early days 2x2 workers carry on the torch in 1900s to NOW!
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Post by nathan on Jan 11, 2020 23:37:36 GMT -5
That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. The 2x2's taught my father that their ministry was of the lineage of the apostles. When it came to light that a man started the 2x2's, they admitted that they only implied such. What is that NOT a lie? Does your god approve of deceiving liars? The workers who taught your father were correct there has always been Jesus 2x2 apostles through the ages! even in our days... This is what Jesus said when he sent out the 12 in Matthew 9:37-38 Then saith Jesus unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.And a few weeks later, Jesus sent out the 70 in Luke 10:1-2 After these things the Lord/Jesus appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
The resurrected Jesus sent forth Paul into the harvest field/the work= ministry in Acts 9. God sent Matthias out in the work of the ministry in Acts 1. The Holy Spirit sent Barnabas and Paul, Silas, Timothy, John Mark, Apollo and others in Acts 11-19 and The Godhead continue to sent more apostles through the ages and even in our days!
I heard the call and was sent forth by God in 1984-1993. There are ex-workers on TMB, they too heard the called and started out in this work. God will continue to call and sent out laborers/workers into the world until Jesus returns again as King of kings and to establish His eternal kingdom on earth and through out the Universe! and His apostles and people will rule with Him 1000 yrs.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 12, 2020 2:12:32 GMT -5
That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. You don't believe in God, Christ or the Holy Spirit, heaven or hell, Satan and so on... So, you better stick to what you know best, your magic broom and spells. And I wonder where you get the magic power from?
I know you don't have the power you must get from higher up... I don't believe you get your magic power for spells from God
At Least 43 Things God Hates
1. Homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22). 2. Bestiality (Leviticus 18:23) 3. Idols, and the materials used to make idols (Deuteronomy 7:25) 4. Blemished sacrifices (Deuteronomy 17:1) 5. Worshipping the sun, moon or stars (Deuteronomy 17:3-4)
6. Divination (Deuteronomy 18:10) 7. Astrology (Deuteronomy 18:10) 8. Enchanters (Deuteronomy 18:10) 9. Witches (Deuteronomy 18:10) 10. Charmers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 11. Wizards (Deuteronomy 18:11)
12. Necromancers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 13. Transvestitism (Deuteronomy 22:5) 14. The hire of a lady (Deuteronomy 23:18) 15. Remarriage to a former wife after she has been married to another man (Deuteronomy 24:4)
16. Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16) 17. Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5) 18. The wicked (Psalm 11:5) 19. Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5) 20. The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)
21. A proud look (Proverbs 6:16-17) 22. A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17) 23. Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)
24. A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18) 25. Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18) 26. A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19) 27. Anyone who sows discord among brethren (Proverbs 6:19)
www.livingtheway.org/43things.html Oh ......but that is the old Testament, it was done away with. Remember you can work on Sunday now ( not that it worries me) because the old was replaced with the new. Good point Olea. But some of the OT is still current as far as i can gather. For instance, you are still allowed to hate homosexuals. Unless they are workers buggering little kids in which case it is the kids fault. Lying seems to be ok too. I have noticed Nathan tells loads of porkies on here about Planets and Admiral Byrd. But that's probably ok too as he is professing and he is just upholding the fine old professing and christian tradition of lying.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 2:14:39 GMT -5
Oh ......but that is the old Testament, it was done away with. Remember you can work on Sunday now ( not that it worries me) because the old was replaced with the new. Good point Olea. But some of the OT is still current as far as i can gather. For instance, you are still allowed to hate homosexuals. Unless they are workers buggering little kids in which case it is the kids fault. Lying seems to be ok too. I have noticed Nathan tells loads of porkies on here about Planets and Admiral Byrd. But that's probably ok too as he is professing and he is just upholding the fine old professing and christian tradition of lying. so you are saying homosexuals are pedophiles? tsk tsk someone is gonna blow a gasket over that....
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 12, 2020 2:16:25 GMT -5
Good point Olea. But some of the OT is still current as far as i can gather. For instance, you are still allowed to hate homosexuals. Unless they are workers buggering little kids in which case it is the kids fault. Lying seems to be ok too. I have noticed Nathan tells loads of porkies on here about Planets and Admiral Byrd. But that's probably ok too as he is professing and he is just upholding the fine old professing and christian tradition of lying. so you are saying homosexuals are pedophiles? tsk tsk someone is gonna blow a gasket over that.... You need to learn to read and think. With the emphasis on the latter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2020 2:19:01 GMT -5
so you are saying homosexuals are pedophiles? tsk tsk someone is gonna blow a gasket over that.... You need to learn to read and think. With the emphasis on the latter. you are the one that said it without thinking of course as per your mode of operation...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 12, 2020 2:20:26 GMT -5
You need to learn to read and think. With the emphasis on the latter. you are the one that said it without thinking of course as per your mode of operation... Meow.... go back to your phrase book and practice practice practice.
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Post by mountain on Jan 12, 2020 5:46:01 GMT -5
So, What do you think when Jesus said in Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. You Don't think Jesus meant to continue in this way/method, message to ALL nations to the time of His returns again. No, I don't think the "gospel of the kingdom" was a particular method of ministry and fellowship/worship held in homes. This article explains is pretty well. www.gotquestions.org/gospel-of-the-kingdom.html I can't open the link for some reason, but feel I must come to Nathan's defence on this issue. During my professing years it was a common belief amongst the fellowship that I came in contact with, that the workers founded their ministry on Matthew 10, following Jesus's command to go out two and two etc. Nathan will tell you that nowhere in the entirety of Matthew's gospel, including Matt. 10, is it specifically mentioned that Jesus sent out his disciples two and two, or commanded such. However, the fact that Jesus did send out his disciples two and two is inferred from the circumstances in a number of passages in Matthew's gospel. Furthermore, only Mark (for the 12) and luke (for the 70/72) each make one passing reference to the practice and in no way state it was a specific doctrinal command of Jesus. Nathan is right here! Both the missions for the 12 and the 70 were short duration missions, to be done speedily. After all they went out largely on foot. When Jesus was preparing the disciples/church for the long term great commission, he made no reference to the practice of going out two and two. History shows us that the practice did indeed continue, but with variations, including single ministry or permanent, as opposed to itinerant ministry. As Nathan has told us in the past, the sending of messengers two and two was a common practice in Biblical times to receive or deliver important messages orally. A single messenger could easily get things wrong. With two there was far less likelihood. Also the old Jewish law states that a matter will be established through the testimony of two or more witnesses. Nathan is right when he states that Jesus was simply fulfilling the OT Law and common Jewish practices of the time when sending out his messengers, rather than making doctrinal command. There is nowt wrong with a two and two ministry. It has a lot to commend it, but it was never meant to be a doctrinal command! Since Pentecost, true believers have been accompanied by the indwelling Holy Ghost which makes a huge difference to matters as it bears testimony to those seeking the word. Philip, the Ethiopian eunuch and the Holy Ghost, all acting in consort show all the ingredients that are necessary. My grateful thanks to Nathan.
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Post by Annan on Jan 12, 2020 7:01:19 GMT -5
The 2x2's taught my father that their ministry was of the lineage of the apostles. When it came to light that a man started the 2x2's, they admitted that they only implied such. What is that NOT a lie? Does your god approve of deceiving liars? The workers who taught your father were correct there has always been Jesus 2x2 apostles through the ages! even in our days...Try again, Nathan. I've come to the conclusion you are the only one going to heaven, Nathan. You are the only one who knows the truth.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 12, 2020 11:36:08 GMT -5
The people who wrote the article don't KNOW there is historical church document that the Vaudois and those like them through the ages, had KEPT Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry and fellowship/Worship in the homes of believers for nearly 1800 yrs... Then the early days 2x2 workers carry on the torch in 1900s to NOW!
Jesus' Resurrection is the chief cornerstone of Christian faith. The Resurrection is the "gospel of the kingdom."
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Post by nathan on Jan 12, 2020 11:36:43 GMT -5
I can't open the link for some reason, but feel I must come to Nathan's defence on this issue. During my professing years it was a common belief amongst the fellowship that I came in contact with, that the workers founded their ministry on Matthew 10, following Jesus's command to go out two and two etc. Nathan will tell you that nowhere in the entirety of Matthew's gospel, including Matt. 10, is it specifically mentioned that Jesus sent out his disciples two and two, or commanded such. However, the fact that Jesus did send out his disciples two and two is inferred from the circumstances in a number of passages in Matthew's gospel. Furthermore, only Mark (for the 12) and luke (for the 70/72) each make one passing reference to the practice and in no way state it was a specific doctrinal command of Jesus. Nathan is right here! Both the missions for the 12 and the 70 were short duration missions, to be done speedily. After all they went out largely on foot. When Jesus was preparing the disciples/church for the long term great commission, he made no reference to the practice of going out two and two. History shows us that the practice did indeed continue, but with variations, including single ministry or permanent, as opposed to itinerant ministry. As Nathan has told us in the past, the sending of messengers two and two was a common practice in Biblical times to receive or deliver important messages orally. A single messenger could easily get things wrong. With two there was far less likelihood. Also the old Jewish law states that a matter will be established through the testimony of two or more witnesses. Nathan is right when he states that Jesus was simply fulfilling the OT Law and common Jewish practices of the time when sending out his messengers, rather than making doctrinal command. There is nowt wrong with a two and two ministry. It has a lot to commend it, but it was never meant to be a doctrinal command! Since Pentecost, true believers have been accompanied by the indwelling Holy Ghost which makes a huge difference to matters as it bears testimony to those seeking the word. Philip, the Ethiopian eunuch and the Holy Ghost, all acting in consort show all the ingredients that are necessary. My grateful thanks to Nathan. Thanks, my friend... In Acts 1 we read about Judas one of the 12 went and hang himself so, God appointed and selected Matthias to take his place in the ministry. In Acts we read John 3 Peter and John went to the temple to share the gospel with the Jews. Acts 13:1-2 The Holy Spirit selected and sent Paul and Barnabas together as workers.
Acts 15 We read there was a great disagreement between Paul and Barnabas for taken John Mark back in the ministry. John Mark was Barnabas nephew. Paul decided to take Silas and Barnabas took John Mark and they went on their ways.
One of the main reasons that God the Father and Jesus sent His apostles TWO and TWO is part of the in service training school. The younger man to learn from the older man with experience as mentor like Paul train Silas, Timothy, Titus to be preachers, pastors of the churches and teachers to the churches. The younger generation are the hope of the churches future.
When I was in the work, there were TWO of us on the workers list, but in the middle of the year my older companion went overseer for conventions so, I joined with the workers in the next field for 3 months and this happened to me for 3 yrs. When I was in Montana for special meetings One worker who didn't have a companion for two year, the overseer assigned me to join him.
The workers don't ALWAYS go two and two sometimes it depends on circumstances, just like we READ in the book of Acts of the apostles. Paul went with Barnabas, Paul went alone, or with in small groups of apostles together.
Here is the Vaudois Christians who had taught and practice just like the 2x2 workers for 1800 yrs.
Sending forth the Vaudois/apostles preachers into the world. Two callings: Apostles and Disciples.
Some among the brethren devoted themselves entirely to traveling and ministering the Word and were called "the Perfect" and in accordance with the Lord's word in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect, go and SELL that thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasures in heaven, and come and follow me." The apostles or the Perfect "Possess nothing," they had NO homes, and Literally Acted upon this command. It was recognize that ALL believers are NOT call to such a path, and that the MAJORITY of believers, while acknowledge that they and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while "Remaining" in their families and continuing their usual occupations. Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders of the churches and believers "Remained" in their homes, the "Apostles" traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called to be Apostles or Perfect, and others followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel some were called to SELL ALL that they had and follow Christ, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them. The Vaudois/Waldensian Apostles had NO property or goods or home or family; if they HAD these they left them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among whom they ministered the Word. They Always go Two and Two, an elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his older companion. (no need for theological training since the younger companion gets on-the-job training guidance from the older companion and the Holy Spirit). No need for seminary school since the Holy Spirit is the only Teacher they need. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. They NEVER ask for anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The Name "Friends of God" was often given to them.They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor.
They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Older man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare.
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Post by mountain on Jan 12, 2020 13:07:13 GMT -5
I can't open the link for some reason, but feel I must come to Nathan's defence on this issue. During my professing years it was a common belief amongst the fellowship that I came in contact with, that the workers founded their ministry on Matthew 10, following Jesus's command to go out two and two etc. Nathan will tell you that nowhere in the entirety of Matthew's gospel, including Matt. 10, is it specifically mentioned that Jesus sent out his disciples two and two, or commanded such. However, the fact that Jesus did send out his disciples two and two is inferred from the circumstances in a number of passages in Matthew's gospel. Furthermore, only Mark (for the 12) and luke (for the 70/72) each make one passing reference to the practice and in no way state it was a specific doctrinal command of Jesus. Nathan is right here! Both the missions for the 12 and the 70 were short duration missions, to be done speedily. After all they went out largely on foot. When Jesus was preparing the disciples/church for the long term great commission, he made no reference to the practice of going out two and two. History shows us that the practice did indeed continue, but with variations, including single ministry or permanent, as opposed to itinerant ministry. As Nathan has told us in the past, the sending of messengers two and two was a common practice in Biblical times to receive or deliver important messages orally. A single messenger could easily get things wrong. With two there was far less likelihood. Also the old Jewish law states that a matter will be established through the testimony of two or more witnesses. Nathan is right when he states that Jesus was simply fulfilling the OT Law and common Jewish practices of the time when sending out his messengers, rather than making doctrinal command. There is nowt wrong with a two and two ministry. It has a lot to commend it, but it was never meant to be a doctrinal command! Since Pentecost, true believers have been accompanied by the indwelling Holy Ghost which makes a huge difference to matters as it bears testimony to those seeking the word. Philip, the Ethiopian eunuch and the Holy Ghost, all acting in consort show all the ingredients that are necessary. My grateful thanks to Nathan. Thanks, my friend... In Acts 1 we read about Judas one of the 12 went and hang himself so, God appointed and selected Matthias to take his place in the ministry. In Acts we read John 3 Peter and John went to the temple to share the gospel with the Jews. Acts 13:1-2 The Holy Spirit selected and sent Paul and Barnabas together as workers.
Acts 15 We read there was a great disagreement between Paul and Barnabas for taken John Mark back in the ministry. John Mark was Barnabas nephew. Paul decided to take Silas and Barnabas took John Mark and they went on their ways.
One of the main reasons that God the Father and Jesus sent His apostles TWO and TWO is part of the in service training school. The younger man to learn from the older man with experience as mentor like Paul train Silas, Timothy, Titus to be preachers, pastors of the churches and teachers to the churches. The younger generation are the hope of the churches future.
When I was in the work, there were TWO of us on the workers list, but in the middle of the year my older companion went overseer for conventions so, I joined with the workers in the next field for 3 months and this happened to me for 3 yrs. When I was in Montana for special meetings One worker who didn't have a companion for two year, the overseer assigned me to join him.
The workers don't ALWAYS go two and two sometimes it depends on circumstances, just like we READ in the book of Acts of the apostles. Paul went with Barnabas, Paul went alone, or with in small groups of apostles together.
Here is the Vaudois Christians who had taught and practice just like the 2x2 workers for 1800 yrs.
Sending forth the Vaudois/apostles preachers into the world. Two callings: Apostles and Disciples.
Some among the brethren devoted themselves entirely to traveling and ministering the Word and were called "the Perfect" and in accordance with the Lord's word in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect, go and SELL that thou has, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasures in heaven, and come and follow me." The apostles or the Perfect "Possess nothing," they had NO homes, and Literally Acted upon this command. It was recognize that ALL believers are NOT call to such a path, and that the MAJORITY of believers, while acknowledge that they and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while "Remaining" in their families and continuing their usual occupations. Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders of the churches and believers "Remained" in their homes, the "Apostles" traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called to be Apostles or Perfect, and others followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel some were called to SELL ALL that they had and follow Christ, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them. The Vaudois/Waldensian Apostles had NO property or goods or home or family; if they HAD these they left them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among whom they ministered the Word. They Always go Two and Two, an elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his older companion. (no need for theological training since the younger companion gets on-the-job training guidance from the older companion and the Holy Spirit). No need for seminary school since the Holy Spirit is the only Teacher they need. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. They NEVER ask for anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The Name "Friends of God" was often given to them.They were required to commit to memory the Gospels of Matthew and John, the general epistles, and a part of those of Paul. They were instructed, moreover, during two or three successive winters, and trained to speak in Latin, and in Italian. They were supported by voluntary contributions of the believers. One part was given to the ministers, once to the poor, and the third was reserved for the missionaries of the Church. These missionaries always Went Forth Two and Two, a young man and old one. The latter was the Regidor, and his COMPANION the Coadjutor.
They traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places, and secret adherents in almost all the towns. Each minister was required to become a missionary in his turn. The younger ones were thus initiated into the delicate duties of evangelization--each of them being under the experienced guidance of a man of years, who according to the discipline of his church, was his superior, and whom he was bound to obey in everything as a matter of duty, and not merely out of deference. The Older man, on his part, thus made his preparation for repose, by training for the Church Successors worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having Committed the Sacred Trust of the Gospel into Prudent and Zealous hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois, therefore, are not schematics, but continued inheritors of the Church founded by the Apostles. Very few of them were married (in the ministry); and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their life always spent amidst warfare and dangers, make it easy to understand the reason of their Celibacy. In the annual synod (special gatherings), which was held in the Valleys, inquiry was made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of residence were made amongst them. Those actually employed in the ministry were changed from place to place every three years---two of them always exchanging places with another, except the aged men, who were no longer removed. The Vaudois were bound to visit the sick; they admonished those who behaved ill, and if remonstrance's produced no effect, they went to length of Excommunication; but it was very rare. You do agree then that the important thing is the actual message rather than the method of delivery? After all, Jesus didn't make the method of delivery a doctrine in itself. When ordering a pizza, it may be delivered by a guy on a bicycle, a motor bike, or driving a car, is the method really that important? I mean, you could have two guys delivering it on foot, but I imagine it would have to be a very big pizza?
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2020 13:24:38 GMT -5
Now Ben, you very well know that coming down is easier than going up. Some times. If I remember my hiking days, coming down a steep slope was harder on my knees than climbing up. However, the analogy does make sense why my knees are pretty sore these days....
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Post by mountain on Jan 12, 2020 13:26:45 GMT -5
Now Ben, you very well know that coming down is easier than going up. Some times. If I remember my hiking days, coming down a steep slope was harder on my knees than climbing up. However, the analogy does make sense why my knees are pretty sore these days.... Didn't you just wait until the sun came up and then melt your way downhill? Sounds a lot easier?
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Post by Grant on Jan 12, 2020 13:29:52 GMT -5
I saw a programme on the Waldensians the other day and how they lived is nothing like the workers. They lived in caves in the mountains. They would wander around which is so unlike the workers who live in one place in nice warm beds in peoples' homes and driving their cars. Cooney was put out because he wanted to continue a wandering life style and 'go where the spirit led' and to think how often we were told the way of God never changes. Missionaries were more like the Waldensians than any workers are today.
A lot of what you write in your posts is made up and added by you Nathan. Not to mention that the Waldensians and predecessors Vaudios practiced infant baptism and many Cathoic rituals
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Post by mountain on Jan 12, 2020 13:32:40 GMT -5
Now Ben, you very well know that coming down is easier than going up. Perhaps you should ask Prince Andrew.....you know....Randy Andy. He is the Grand old Duke of York after all. When they were up they were up and when they were down they were down! Enjoy! www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGvEQTQaTbQ
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2020 13:32:59 GMT -5
Yes, Nathan, we do. You need to come up wit better insults. That is the truth you don't know the history of the Vaudois or the 2x2s and you call us/2x2s and them liars. You don't believe in God, Christ or the Holy Spirit, heaven or hell, Satan and so on... So, you better stick to what you know best, your magic broom and spells. And I wonder where you get the magic power from?
I know you don't have the power you must get from higher up... I don't believe you get your magic power for spells from God
At Least 43 Things God Hates
1. Homosexual acts (Leviticus 18:22). 2. Bestiality (Leviticus 18:23) 3. Idols, and the materials used to make idols (Deuteronomy 7:25) 4. Blemished sacrifices (Deuteronomy 17:1) 5. Worshipping the sun, moon or stars (Deuteronomy 17:3-4)
6. Divination (Deuteronomy 18:10) 7. Astrology (Deuteronomy 18:10) 8. Enchanters (Deuteronomy 18:10) 9. Witches (Deuteronomy 18:10) 10. Charmers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 11. Wizards (Deuteronomy 18:11)
12. Necromancers (Deuteronomy 18:11) 13. Transvestitism (Deuteronomy 22:5) 14. The hire of a lady (Deuteronomy 23:18) 15. Remarriage to a former wife after she has been married to another man (Deuteronomy 24:4)
16. Dishonest scales (Deuteronomy 25:13-16) 17. Workers of iniquity (Psalm 5:5) 18. The wicked (Psalm 11:5) 19. Those who love violence (Psalm 11:5) 20. The froward [perverse] (Proverbs 3:32)
21. A proud look (Proverbs 6:16-17) 22. A lying tongue (Proverbs 6:17) 23. Hands that shed innocent blood (Proverbs 6:17)
24. A heart that devises wicked imaginations (Proverbs 6:18) 25. Feet that are swift in running to mischief (Proverbs 6:18) 26. A false witness who speaks lies (Proverbs 6:19) 27. Anyone who sows discord among brethren (Proverbs 6:19)
www.livingtheway.org/43things.htmlThe Waldensians were part of the RCC Nathan. How can you excommunicate them if they weren't at one time members? You keep repeating stuff that isn't true about them. They petitioned the Pope at that time many times to be allowed to preach and he denied them the right that was only for ordained clergy. They believed in infant Baptism and they believed that the wine became blood and the wafer became flesh (transubstantiation). So how can you claim they were formed by Paul when we know all of this? And why wouldn't they still be 2x2's instead of still being Waldensians?
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