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Post by snow on Jan 20, 2020 20:18:06 GMT -5
Jesus was more rigid than the rest in many ways. He also brought in the teachings of other religions, primarily Buddhism. I agree that he was more lenient when it came to women than the Mosaic law states he should have been, but in many ways he was far more rigid. He disagreed with the priests of his time and what they were doing. He felt the law had been corrupted and he was very upset about that. But there is really no point in getting into this deeper because you are unwilling to study what really happened or believe it. That's fine. That's what believing with faith is all about. But if you read some books regarding indepth research of the bible and the times, you'd find a very different story than the one Christians today are taught. Interesting. You know how a while ago I was saying my image of a God is different to yours well here it is. To me God could be called Buddha ect to some. So Jesus isn't introducing anything new to him if he is God. I wish people would get this "powerful dude sitting on a cloud wielding a big stick that if you cant get or make something happen you just pray to this dude and it will happen" image out of there head. To me that is not god. So why do you believe the deeper studies over the scriptures, are they any more credible than the scriptures, I am not in any way dismissing your deeper studies, but would you agree that they agree with me in the scriptures do not promote a guy sitting in the clouds?. Remember I do not believe the scriptures are promoting the image of the guy I stated above, thats man making that image. So we have gone from Jesus would be appaled at those not upholding the law to You agree he was lenient to this women. Remembered his 2 great commandments. I agree with you in that I can't picture a God as being a 'powerful dude sitting on a cloud wielding a big stick, that if you can't get or make something happen you just pray to this dude and it will happen'. But that is basically what the Christian and Jewish God has been portrayed as. What I find even more interesting is that this God changes. In the OT he is a complete monster as he's portrayed and then there is a bit kinder God in the NT. I think many religions took bits and pieces of older religions and formed their own version of it to make a new religion that aligned with their mindset. There are too many similarities between all those older religions to rule out that it happened that way. For example the Hebrew religion could very well have started with the monotheistic Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten. He was the first one in the area to have believed in one god. He didn't last long of course. All of the other Pharoahs and the other nations that were around the Israelite people all worshiped more than one god.
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Post by snow on Jan 20, 2020 20:20:13 GMT -5
Are you saying that a majority of the people here have read thoroughly about their religion's history and have read extensively about how doctrine was formed in some place other than the bible? I don't think many have done a lot of investigation into their own religion and some don't even know what's in their own bible for that matters. I know for sure my birth family hasn't read much from their bible and that I will quote verses that they had no idea were in the bible. They definitely have never read any outside material on the subject. So I don't think you are right when you state that "you don't know what you're talking about'. How many books have you read that were written by actual biblical scholars? I have literally read hundreds of different books on the subject when I was doing research for writing my book. I think if people would read something other than the bible it would be an eye opener in many cases. I have read many things/books/articles about Christianity/Jews or Children of Israel. I’ve listened to people from other countries express their thoughts, results of their own researches, etc. I know there are several on TMB that’s read more then their bible about their faith. I also know there’s a lot of 2x2s that open up their bibles and quickly scan for an interesting verse to give testimony on and end up saying they want to do better or they’re thankful for the workers which gives them a pass as being hearty members of their church. But don’t understand diddly-squat about the Bible. When we had friends or workers get deep into the Bible , a majority of the workers and friends’ eyes roll back in their head and they hear nothing because they aren’t listening. They learn little. Evan Jones’ preaching here in the states was one very evident example. Very few understood what he said and furthermore weren’t interested in finding out about what he was preaching about! He’s the very reason I begin to realize the most of the F& W’s are Bible illiterate. They’re stunted or just don’t know! I’m not saying all of them, but it became the conventions were a repeat of previous meetings and conventions. Basically the 2x2 church should have a great potential of having very goid bible students what with the small personal sized meetings but it’s not that way in every place. Okay, so why did you contradict me when I said I wished more Christians would study the history of their religions somewhere other than the bible? Many haven't and many don't even know what's in their bible. Which you just confirmed? I'm not understanding what I said wrong.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 20, 2020 20:21:37 GMT -5
I have read many things/books/articles about Christianity/Jews or Children of Israel. I’ve listened to people from other countries express their thoughts, results of their own researches, etc. I know there are several on TMB that’s read more then their bible about their faith. I also know there’s a lot of 2x2s that open up their bibles and quickly scan for an interesting verse to give testimony on and end up saying they want to do better or they’re thankful for the workers which gives them a pass as being hearty members of their church. But don’t understand diddly-squat about the Bible. When we had friends or workers get deep into the Bible , a majority of the workers and friends’ eyes roll back in their head and they hear nothing because they aren’t listening. They learn little. Evan Jones’ preaching here in the states was one very evident example. Very few understood what he said and furthermore weren’t interested in finding out about what he was preaching about! He’s the very reason I begin to realize the most of the F& W’s are Bible illiterate. They’re stunted or just don’t know! I’m not saying all of them, but it became the conventions were a repeat of previous meetings and conventions. Basically the 2x2 church should have a great potential of having very goid bible students what with the small personal sized meetings but it’s not that way in every place. Okay, so why did you contradict me when I said I wished more Christians would study the history of their religions somewhere other than the bible? Many haven't and many don't even know what's in their bible. Which you just confirmed? I'm not understanding what I said wrong. You spread the blanket over all.
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Post by snow on Jan 20, 2020 20:22:40 GMT -5
So they interpreted what Jesus said the same as me then? That he would be back soon and before some of them died. Thanks for confirming that. No they didn’t get that from the verse you keep saying Jesus was “returning soon”. He did not say that. Peter knew what he said because he spoke about it in II Peter 1:16. A lot of their idea was wishing. Grief. They’d didn’t know what to do but wait, in spite of Jesus having told them in Matthew 28 what to do, in their grief and desire just to be with Jesus they forgot those things. All they wanted to do was to devote their time to meditation and prayer as they said when they appointed the men to look out to the administration of the goods/finances especially to the widows and orphans. I can understand that grief, that desire to totally be centered on him whom they wanted to be with. How do you know they didn't get it from that verse? It most certainly makes one believe that he was going to return soon and the people acted exactly like people who believed that was going to happen. You have interpreted the verse differently from them according to their actions as far as I can see.
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Post by snow on Jan 20, 2020 20:26:05 GMT -5
Okay, so why did you contradict me when I said I wished more Christians would study the history of their religions somewhere other than the bible? Many haven't and many don't even know what's in their bible. Which you just confirmed? I'm not understanding what I said wrong. You spread the blanket over all. I disagree. I didn't say all Christians didn't study outside of the bible. That's not true obviously because there are many that are biblical scholars. But I do believe that a majority of Christians don't go beyond the bible and in some cases they don't even go beyond what they hear from their preachers. So I don't think what I said was inaccurate nor was it a blanket statement. Here is my original statement. It's so interesting to see how people ignore things that just don't match with what they want to believe. If they just took some courses or read some research books on the subject that would view the history of their religion in a whole different light. Especially the trinity doctrine.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 20, 2020 21:26:23 GMT -5
No they didn’t get that from the verse you keep saying Jesus was “returning soon”. He did not say that. Peter knew what he said because he spoke about it in II Peter 1:16. A lot of their idea was wishing. Grief. They’d didn’t know what to do but wait, in spite of Jesus having told them in Matthew 28 what to do, in their grief and desire just to be with Jesus they forgot those things. All they wanted to do was to devote their time to meditation and prayer as they said when they appointed the men to look out to the administration of the goods/finances especially to the widows and orphans. I can understand that grief, that desire to totally be centered on him whom they wanted to be with. How do you know they didn't get it from that verse? It most certainly makes one believe that he was going to return soon and the people acted exactly like people who believed that was going to happen. You have interpreted the verse differently from them according to their actions as far as I can see. Because he was with them 40 days after resurrection and clarified many things. I know they understood what he meant because Peter addresses this in his epistle .
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 20, 2020 21:28:24 GMT -5
You spread the blanket over all. I disagree. I didn't say all Christians didn't study outside of the bible. That's not true obviously because there are many that are biblical scholars. But I do believe that a majority of Christians don't go beyond the bible and in some cases they don't even go beyond what they hear from their preachers. So I don't think what I said was inaccurate nor was it a blanket statement. Here is my original statement. It's so interesting to see how people ignore things that just don't match with what they want to believe. If they just took some courses or read some research books on the subject that would view the history of their religion in a whole different light. Especially the trinity doctrine.That is a blanket statement because you didn’t qualify with which people or some people. It made it sound like you were talking down at all bible believers.
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Post by snow on Jan 21, 2020 13:31:17 GMT -5
How do you know they didn't get it from that verse? It most certainly makes one believe that he was going to return soon and the people acted exactly like people who believed that was going to happen. You have interpreted the verse differently from them according to their actions as far as I can see. Because he was with them 40 days after resurrection and clarified many things. I know they understood what he meant because Peter addresses this in his epistle . Yes he was with them after according to the story and they still acted like he said he would return before some of them died. What you are saying doesn't stand up under scrutiny because their actions spoke quite loudly that they also believed that they didn't need to marry, reproduce, own anything other than communally in order to survive long enough to his expected return in their time. It is also likely the reason there was no gospels written by the original group because they didn't think they had long before they were taken away. But when time passed and still no return, they started putting things down in writing. The actions are very much in line with someone that believed Jesus was coming soon, before they died.
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Post by snow on Jan 21, 2020 13:34:02 GMT -5
I disagree. I didn't say all Christians didn't study outside of the bible. That's not true obviously because there are many that are biblical scholars. But I do believe that a majority of Christians don't go beyond the bible and in some cases they don't even go beyond what they hear from their preachers. So I don't think what I said was inaccurate nor was it a blanket statement. Here is my original statement. It's so interesting to see how people ignore things that just don't match with what they want to believe. If they just took some courses or read some research books on the subject that would view the history of their religion in a whole different light. Especially the trinity doctrine.That is a blanket statement because you didn’t qualify with which people or some people. It made it sound like you were talking down at all bible believers. Well I am sorry it came across that way. I guess I just automatically assume that people would know that I don't see all theists in the same light. I have read many Christian works by biblical scholars that obviously have studied and researched something other than the bible. So I obviously don't believe all Christians are alike in that way and I'm sure you know me well enough by now that I don't rank everyone the same when it comes to things. I still say that a majority of Christians haven't studied the history of their religion. Yes, some have obviously.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 21, 2020 13:39:57 GMT -5
How do you know they didn't get it from that verse? It most certainly makes one believe that he was going to return soon and the people acted exactly like people who believed that was going to happen. You have interpreted the verse differently from them according to their actions as far as I can see. Because he was with them 40 days after resurrection and clarified many things. I know they understood what he meant because Peter addresses this in his epistle . How many times have I tried to explain this very reason that they were looking for Jesus to return for them in their own generation and you have denied that is what Jesus meant and tried to make it fit some thing else?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 21, 2020 14:04:24 GMT -5
Because he was with them 40 days after resurrection and clarified many things. I know they understood what he meant because Peter addresses this in his epistle . How many times have I tried to explain this very reason that they were looking for Jesus to return for them in their own generation and you have denied that is what Jesus meant and tried to make it fit some thing else? I’m only going by what the Bible says! It does not say “he’s returning.” Period. Yes there were those who have miss understood what he said all along! But the only other time he’s talked about “coming” with his angels or in his glory” is when he speaks about appearing in the clouds. Which is the rapture. Sure that means the resurrection of the faithful dead. And yes they will not see real death or the second death. Many times Jesus said things that belonged to more then one thing. But this particular passage is about his transfiguration in which Peter, James and John DID SEE JESUS IN HIS KINGDOM. II Peter 16 addresses what they saw. “...eyewitnesses of his majesty.” That was the only recorded incident where Peter could have seen his “majesty”. THE problem is people fail to connect the end if one chapter to the other. It’s a wonder if that was originally separated. Of course it says 6 days had passed, but it still is about what he said that those 3 apostles wouldn’t die before they saw him coming in his kingdom. His kingdom is from heaven he’s been king of his eternal kingdom forever. The 3 got to see eternal living men come and speak to Jesus and Jesus interact with them. They were unlearned men they didn’t know what to make of it. As to them staying in Jerusalem and making a commune of the faithful. They just were NOT THINKING! Jesus had told them to go unto all the world preaching the gospel. But in their fear, Unlearned estate, grief and pure humanness they paid NO HEED TO what he’d told them, or they’d known he wasn’t coming back very soon because he’d given them a commission to go to all the world. So God had to push them out of Jerusalem by the persecution and Christian executions and then the destruction of the temple to get them away from the old covenant into preaching the new covenant. This is not only my understanding but many other people’s’ .
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 21, 2020 14:12:52 GMT -5
Because he was with them 40 days after resurrection and clarified many things. I know they understood what he meant because Peter addresses this in his epistle . Yes he was with them after according to the story and they still acted like he said he would return before some of them died. What you are saying doesn't stand up under scrutiny because their actions spoke quite loudly that they also believed that they didn't need to marry, reproduce, own anything other than communally in order to survive long enough to his expected return in their time. It is also likely the reason there was no gospels written by the original group because they didn't think they had long before they were taken away. But when time passed and still no return, they started putting things down in writing. The actions are very much in line with someone that believed Jesus was coming soon, before they died. But we have to consider the likely estate of their minds. They could have thought he would come and go at will just as he had during those forty days and nights. They didn’t understand that he stayed in the earth during the times he wasn’t with them, they assumed so it seems that he came and went as he wished. They were unlearned men. They didn’t put it together. They were still in shock over resurrection, they were grieving because he left them again, they simply wanted him with them as they’d always known. Furthermore they did not even seem to remember the great commission he’d given them to go out over the world to preach the gospel. If they’d thought of even that they’d known they couldn’t pile up in Jerusalem and get that done, They just were not thinking. But then they did devote themselves to prayer and meditation so it wasn’t purely wasted when God had to force them out of Jerusalem.
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Post by snow on Jan 21, 2020 14:17:52 GMT -5
Yes he was with them after according to the story and they still acted like he said he would return before some of them died. What you are saying doesn't stand up under scrutiny because their actions spoke quite loudly that they also believed that they didn't need to marry, reproduce, own anything other than communally in order to survive long enough to his expected return in their time. It is also likely the reason there was no gospels written by the original group because they didn't think they had long before they were taken away. But when time passed and still no return, they started putting things down in writing. The actions are very much in line with someone that believed Jesus was coming soon, before they died. But we have to consider the likely estate of their minds. They could have thought he would come and go at will just as he had during those forty days and nights. They didn’t understand that he stayed in the earth during the times he wasn’t with them, they assumed so it seems that he came and went as he wished. They were unlearned men. They didn’t put it together. They were still in shock over resurrection, they were grieving because he left them again, they simply wanted him with them as they’d always known. Furthermore they did not even seem to remember the great commission he’d given them to go out over the world to preach the gospel. If they’d thought of even that they’d known they couldn’t pile up in Jerusalem and get that done, They just were not thinking. But then they did devote themselves to prayer and meditation so it wasn’t purely wasted when God had to force them out of Jerusalem. Maybe you're right, but it's also possible it's for the exact reason I have stated. We can't know the minds of why they acted like he would return in their lifetimes. So imo, neither of us can unequivocally say one way or the other. It is my opinion that they understood him to say he would be back in their lifetime. It is your opinion that they were grieving and misunderstood him.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 21, 2020 14:50:03 GMT -5
But we have to consider the likely estate of their minds. They could have thought he would come and go at will just as he had during those forty days and nights. They didn’t understand that he stayed in the earth during the times he wasn’t with them, they assumed so it seems that he came and went as he wished. They were unlearned men. They didn’t put it together. They were still in shock over resurrection, they were grieving because he left them again, they simply wanted him with them as they’d always known. Furthermore they did not even seem to remember the great commission he’d given them to go out over the world to preach the gospel. If they’d thought of even that they’d known they couldn’t pile up in Jerusalem and get that done, They just were not thinking. But then they did devote themselves to prayer and meditation so it wasn’t purely wasted when God had to force them out of Jerusalem. Maybe you're right, but it's also possible it's for the exact reason I have stated. We can't know the minds of why they acted like he would return in their lifetimes. So imo, neither of us can unequivocally say one way or the other. It is my opinion that they understood him to say he would be back in their lifetime. It is your opinion that they were grieving and misunderstood him. But for him to be returning he wouldn’t have given the great commission to go all over the world to preach the gospel. They weren’t thinking very well at all. I’m amazed that if they thought his return was that imminent that they just didn’t go back and stand gazing back up into the clouds in the mount because the angels told them he’d return in same fashion. Again if they’d thought clearly about that they they’d known or remembered vwhat he’d said about coming in the clouds with his angels to gather his elect. They just were NOT THINKING.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 21, 2020 15:43:36 GMT -5
How many times have I tried to explain this very reason that they were looking for Jesus to return for them in their own generation and you have denied that is what Jesus meant and tried to make it fit some thing else? I’m only going by what the Bible says! It does not say “he’s returning.” Period. Yes there were those who have miss understood what he said all along! But the only other time he’s talked about “coming” with his angels or in his glory” is when he speaks about appearing in the clouds. Which is the rapture. Sure that means the resurrection of the faithful dead. And yes they will not see real death or the second death. Many times Jesus said things that belonged to more then one thing. But this particular passage is about his transfiguration in which Peter, James and John DID SEE JESUS IN HIS KINGDOM. II Peter 16 addresses what they saw. “...eyewitnesses of his majesty.” That was the only recorded incident where Peter could have seen his “majesty”. THE problem is people fail to connect the end if one chapter to the other. It’s a wonder if that was originally separated. Of course it says 6 days had passed, but it still is about what he said that those 3 apostles wouldn’t die before they saw him coming in his kingdom. His kingdom is from heaven he’s been king of his eternal kingdom forever. The 3 got to see eternal living men come and speak to Jesus and Jesus interact with them. They were unlearned men they didn’t know what to make of it. As to them staying in Jerusalem and making a commune of the faithful. They just were NOT THINKING! Jesus had told them to go unto all the world preaching the gospel. But in their fear, Unlearned estate, grief and pure humanness they paid NO HEED TO what he’d told them, or they’d known he wasn’t coming back very soon because he’d given them a commission to go to all the world. So God had to push them out of Jerusalem by the persecution and Christian executions and then the destruction of the temple to get them away from the old covenant into preaching the new covenant. This is not only my understanding but many other people’s’ . It matters not one whit to me how many people think that they "understand it" -but I am quoting just what Jesus said while you and others are "interpreting" what YOU think that he meant, -not what he said!
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