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Jul 25, 2019 4:41:28 GMT -5
Post by Gene on Jul 25, 2019 4:41:28 GMT -5
Attn, ADMIN! Please address this issue forthwith!
Gene! Nothing is more offensive in my opinion than to be publicly ridiculed as a liar. That is what you have just done to a couple of us!
What you have just expressed is undoubtedly true for you. It is not true for me. Either retract your assertion or be prepared for its consequences! If you stand by your assertion this will be the very first time I have ever lost ALL respect for you.
The verses, I John 4:1-3, were those being used to justify that teaching. I can even remember where I first was taught it applied to me as a worker, thus proving we also came from God! This is not even disputable for me. Now please retract your so very unreasonable post. I CAN prove what I HAVE ASSERTED HERE!, when and where! (Olympia II convention, late 60’s) Surely you cannot. So who is off base here?
BTW, I AM VERY GLAD YOU WERE NOT SUBJECT TO THE TEACHING!
Sincerely,
Dennis Alan Jacobsen
Dennis, I'm in no position to know if one is a liar, so I certainly wouldn't say you are, and I haven't.
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Jul 25, 2019 4:46:16 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on Jul 25, 2019 4:46:16 GMT -5
Here's a fun, educational exercise, kids: Compare and contrast numbers 1 and 2 below: 1. "Workers have taught that they are Jesus come in the flesh historically and still teach it today." 2. The Lady - "'I and the Father are one.'" "Manifested - it does say he was God manifested in the flesh." Joe Lewis - "Ya, and we believe that he still is today - in us too. We truly are Christians."
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Post by Gene on Jul 25, 2019 4:50:00 GMT -5
And now, for bonus points, here's a question for Gratu, Dennis and any other Christian who cares to answer:
As a born-again Christian, do you believe that God is manifested in you?
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Jul 25, 2019 5:57:01 GMT -5
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Post by chuck on Jul 25, 2019 5:57:01 GMT -5
And now, for bonus points, here's a question for Gratu, Dennis and any other Christian who cares to answer: As a born-again Christian, do you believe that God is manifested in you? He was right from when we were conceived. It just wether we recognize it or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 9:53:59 GMT -5
Thus the paradox of not having formal doctrines and discouraging the recording of teachings in meetings.
It can be good, because it gives a lot of latitude for each member's beliefs, and almost compels members who are serious about things to build beliefs from the "ground up".
However, that same virtue can be a vice when trying to figure out what the group collectively believes. I doubt Thor himself could hammer out exactly what the doctrines of the Friends and Workers are.
I personally prefer it that way, but them again, I'm not a fan of religious organization. Some people do need more structure in this aspect of their lives though, and for them, I can imagine the lack of foundational doctrine can be frustrating.
One other disadvantage (as seen on this thread) is that everyone has heard a slightly different set of teaching. Shucks, I've told people I didn't agree with something heard in a special meeting, and someone else who was there denied that that's something they'd ever heard taught. So, we filter much out.
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Jul 25, 2019 11:14:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:14:32 GMT -5
And now, for bonus points, here's a question for Gratu, Dennis and any other Christian who cares to answer: As a born-again Christian, do you believe that God is manifested in you?Gene - “As a born-again Christian, do you believe that God is manifested in you? “ Short answer – NO.
Longer answer – you obviously do not know what historical Christian doctrine has been for 2000 years already. And bear in mind that I do not call myself “Christian” due to the fact that “Christian” has been secularized for a long time to incorporate all manner of anti-Christian beliefs – anything that just calls itself “Christian.”
And because you seem to hold the secularized understanding of “Christian” in an age of easy information access to what “Christian” WAS for centuries, that seems to show that you have no interest in anything but your secularized understanding of what “Christian” is historically.
I don't particularly care what you choose to believe - that is your choice. But “God manifest in the flesh” refers to Jesus the Messiah ALONE. To the Jewish leaders of His day, on that identity wanted to stone Him to death for “blasphemy” which is defined by them as a man making himself God. And “God manifest in the flesh” agrees with “I and my Father are One.” (the words of Jesus that proclaim His deity – even in the Cambridge KJV English). There are something like 700 verses throughout the Scriptures, OT and NT that identify Jesus the Messiah as God – back to my short answer – I am not God and never will be.
Bonus points -
You obviously do not understand or know what being “born again” means. And since you use the term in composition of a trick-question, I will leave your ignorance of both “Christian” definition and “born again” definition for you to sort out for yourself in whichever manner you like because you have obviously opted for the secularized definitions already.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:19:01 GMT -5
Don't like it when on the receiving end as I have from you many a time. Don't forget you are not perfect like your lap companion. Just in case you think you have successfully diverted the thread off the testimony of two witnesses with your posts, you have failed -- workers have taught that they are Jesus come in the flesh historically and still teach it today.so far you have only shown two accounts of this happening you should say "some" workers and not imply that "all" workers are doing this...its dishonest to do so
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Jul 25, 2019 11:33:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:33:46 GMT -5
Wally - "so far you have only shown two accounts of this happening you should say "some" workers and not imply that "all" workers are doing this...its dishonest to do so"
What workers believe seldom fills each sermon they preach - so, because workers have REFUSED to write down or record what they believe (collectively) even 2x2s are left to piece it all together over YEARS of sitting in their meetings. But one thing is clear from several sources, including the Testimony of Dennis on page one, is that workers are TOLD what they can and cannot preach by their upline. So I am not the least dishonest in concluding that the majority of workers believe that they are the word made flesh based on the single testimony of a former worker who has demonstrated integrity (at personal expense) on this thread (without my own testimony).
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Jul 25, 2019 11:38:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:38:19 GMT -5
Wally - "so far you have only shown two accounts of this happening you should say "some" workers and not imply that "all" workers are doing this...its dishonest to do so"
What workers believe seldom fills each sermon they preach - so, because workers have REFUSED to write down or record what they believe (collectively) even 2x2s are left to piece it all together over YEARS of sitting in their meetings. But one thing is clear from several sources, including the Testimony of Dennis on page one, is thatr workers are TOLD what they can and cannot preach. So I am not the least dishonest in concluding that t6he majority of workers believe that they are the word made flesh based on the testimony of a former worker who hes demonstrated integrity on this thread -- ALONE (without my own testimony). thats called ASSuming and we all know what that means don't we....
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Jul 25, 2019 11:40:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:40:49 GMT -5
Wally - "so far you have only shown two accounts of this happening you should say "some" workers and not imply that "all" workers are doing this...its dishonest to do so"
What workers believe seldom fills each sermon they preach - so, because workers have REFUSED to write down or record what they believe (collectively) even 2x2s are left to piece it all together over YEARS of sitting in their meetings. But one thing is clear from several sources, including the Testimony of Dennis on page one, is thatr workers are TOLD what they can and cannot preach. So I am not the least dishonest in concluding that t6he majority of workers believe that they are the word made flesh based on the testimony of a former worker who hes demonstrated integrity on this thread -- ALONE (without my own testimony). thats called ASSuming and we all know what that means don't we.... Call it whatever you like Wally - because YOU have nothing to show that workers (any of them) do not believe they are the word made flesh. And so far, I have presented two testimonies that testify to being TAUGHT by workers that they are the word made flesh - I have not yet gone to written record of workers statements to collect all their collective statements that teach that doctrine in ambiguity - because obviously on this board that would be a waste of my time..
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Jul 25, 2019 11:43:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:43:48 GMT -5
thats called ASSuming and we all know what that means don't we.... Call it whatever you like Wally - because YYOU have nothing to show that workers (any of them) do not believe they are the word made flesh.my testimony is just as valid as yours...but by all means continue to ASSume...
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Jul 25, 2019 11:48:00 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:48:00 GMT -5
Call it whatever you like Wally - because YYOU have nothing to show that workers (any of them) do not believe they are the word made flesh. my testimony is just as valid as yours...but by all means continue to ASSume... Go back now and read the completed post - if you please.
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Jul 25, 2019 11:49:16 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Jul 25, 2019 11:49:16 GMT -5
It has a lot to do with a person's knowledge and understanding of the scriptures, it will formulate or translate his or her understanding of what he/she heard.
Just like trying to teach kinder garden students Algebar, Geometry, and Calculus. They don't have the wisdom, or knowledge to understand it but in time they will.
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Jul 25, 2019 11:53:08 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 11:53:08 GMT -5
my testimony is just as valid as yours...but by all means continue to ASSume... Go back now and read the completed post - if you please.if you've got more proof then come forward with it and by proof you had better have over 1000 worker written testimonies saying that they believe they are Jesus in the flesh or God in the flesh....
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Jul 25, 2019 12:52:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 12:52:07 GMT -5
Go back now and read the completed post - if you please. if you've got more proof then come forward with it and by proof you had better have over 1000 worker written testimonies saying that they believe they are Jesus in the flesh or God in the flesh.... Apparently you only see and only read what you want to see or read - I already TOLD YOU that would be a waste of my time. You have access to the collection of quotations of workers provided on this board - do your own homework for a change and due to your obvious lack of interest in learning on your own by taking a look at the evidence, I will not now even link it here to make your homework easy for you to do..
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Jul 25, 2019 13:03:07 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Jul 25, 2019 13:03:07 GMT -5
Your understanding of 2x2 doctrines and history is so baloney and Pathetic! Like I told you before You jumped out of the FRYING pan/2x2 into the bigger MESS of FIRE! religious confusion 40,000 plus denominations and don't even KNOW it or understand it.
So, all you do is ignore your own online history AGAIN and continue to attempt to rewrite 2x2 history. Why don't you just hop into your spaceship and go for a trip way out there. Your posts are about as valuable as empty peanut shells and YOU have made it that way yourself online for years on end.
The workers have taught and still teach that they are the word made flesh.** WOW! The workers are Jesus in the FLESH? Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS, yet without sin. Can any worker that you KNOW say they have no sin in their his/her life? If they Can't say they are perfect like Jesus then how can they say, believe and TEACH that They are Jesus in the FLESH?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 13:06:25 GMT -5
if you've got more proof then come forward with it and by proof you had better have over 1000 worker written testimonies saying that they believe they are Jesus in the flesh or God in the flesh.... Apparently you only see and only read what you want to see or read - I already TOLD YOU that would be a waste of my time. You have access to the collection of quotations of workers provided on this board - do your own homework for a change and due to your obvious lack of interest in learning on your own by taking a look at the evidence, I will not now even link it here to make your homework easy for you to do..thats what i thought....you don't have anything but the two examples....back to ASSuming i guess....
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Jul 25, 2019 13:17:37 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 25, 2019 13:17:37 GMT -5
And now, for bonus points, here's a question for Gratu, Dennis and any other Christian who cares to answer: As a born-again Christian, do you believe that God is manifested in you? Not as Jesus manifested God.
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Jul 25, 2019 13:23:19 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 25, 2019 13:23:19 GMT -5
So, all you do is ignore your own online history AGAIN and continue to attempt to rewrite 2x2 history. Why don't you just hop into your spaceship and go for a trip way out there. Your posts are about as valuable as empty peanut shells and YOU have made it that way yourself online for years on end.
The workers have taught and still teach that they are the word made flesh. ** WOW! The workers are Jesus in the FLESH? Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS, yet without sin. Can any worker that you KNOW say they have no sin in their his/her life? If they Can't say they are perfect like Jesus then how can they say, believe and TEACH that They are Jesus in the FLESH? Come on you two! The workers do not believe The “Word” is Jesus. They believe that which is called the Word is God or a God’s Word. And they believe that they are the Word manifested in the flesh or more clearly stated is that they believe they are God’s Word manifested in the flesh. The workers have NO idea what they’re truly saying but think they do know that they are living Gods Word. It’s because they are very short on understanding who Jesus WAS before he came to earth in the form of Mary’s baby. They don’t believe Jesus was living with the Father before he came to earth.
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Jul 25, 2019 13:34:14 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 13:34:14 GMT -5
Apparently you only see and only read what you want to see or read - I already TOLD YOU that would be a waste of my time. You have access to the collection of quotations of workers provided on this board - do your own homework for a change and due to your obvious lack of interest in learning on your own by taking a look at the evidence, I will not now even link it here to make your homework easy for you to do.. thats what i thought....you don't have anything but the two examples....back to ASSuming i guess.... And THAT is obvious - too lazy to go check it out for yourself. The two testimonies on this thread would be accepted evidence in a court of law, but not by YOU due to YOUR laziness to see for yourself. For your information, since I indicated where you could easily check it out for yourself, I opened the file and listed twenty statements by workers within 2 minutes that portray their belief that they are the word made flesh - of course, HIGH ABOVE all their followers.
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Jul 25, 2019 13:38:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 13:38:29 GMT -5
** WOW! The workers are Jesus in the FLESH? Jesus was tempted in ALL POINTS, yet without sin. Can any worker that you KNOW say they have no sin in their his/her life? If they Can't say they are perfect like Jesus then how can they say, believe and TEACH that They are Jesus in the FLESH? Come on you two! The workers do not believe The “Word” is Jesus. They believe that which is called the Word is God or a God’s Word. And they believe that they are the Word manifested in the flesh or more clearly stated is that they believe they are God’s Word manifested in the flesh. The workers have NO idea what they’re truly saying but think they do know that they are living Gods Word. It’s because they are very short on understanding who Jesus WAS before he came to earth in the form of Mary’s baby. They don’t believe Jesus was living with the Father before he came to earth. This is a great example of how the ambiguity of workers covers up their blasphemy - on this thread there are two testimonies to being taught by workers that they are the word made flesh, not the word of God made flesh.
Edit - One worker is quoted saying that it is by the "power" of workers that people are saved. Workers from the founder onward have claimed that they copy the life of Jesus - they have long believed and taught that workers are messiahs in place of the only Messiah - while He is supposedly absent.
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Post by fixit on Jul 25, 2019 13:45:20 GMT -5
Here is the specific teaching in transcript. Gene
A lady confronted these preachers regarding the identity of Jesus Christ after this first "Lecture" was finished:
¥ Joe Lewis - "We don't believe that Jesus is God."
¥ The Lady - "'I and the Father are one.'" "manifested - it does say he was God manifested in the flesh."
¥ Joe Lewis - "Ya, and we believe that he still is today - in us too. We truly are Christians. We could get together and - and talk when you have time."
Edit - I also posess the audio record in mp3, but posting that here for listening 'enjoyment' is something that seems impossible on this board.
(Oh, yes, a lady is surely going to welcome two single men to ”get together” with her for 'private discussions' that obviously oppose Scripture)
And here is the Whole transcript for you too, Gene – free to download if you please. Allow lots of download space because this transcript would print to something near 100 pages.
drive.google.com/file/d/1tYHb7ZB7mrGJ3LZooirW96A0AZRjQjld/view?usp=sharing
Here's my 2 cents: 1. This lady "confronted" these preachers. Not a good start. 2. It's not wrong to say that God is manifested in the flesh of his people. 3. "We could get together and - and talk when you have time" is a nice friendly thing to say. It could be arranged at a cafe or another appropriate place. 4. Whose idea was it to meet for "private discussions"? I doubt that these men would want to meet alone with a confrontational woman. If you look for fault you will find it.
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Jul 25, 2019 13:55:05 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Jul 25, 2019 13:55:05 GMT -5
thats what i thought....you don't have anything but the two examples....back to ASSuming i guess.... And THAT is obvious - too lazy to go check it out for yourself. The two testimonies on this thread would be accepted evidence in a court of law, but not by YOU due to YOUR laziness to see for yourself. For your information, since I indicated where you could easily check it out for yourself, I opened the file and listed twenty statements by workers within 2 minutes that portray their belief that they are the word made flesh - of course, HIGH ABOVE all their followers.The two of you are made for each other!
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Jul 25, 2019 14:06:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 14:06:23 GMT -5
fixit -
The person who produced the transcript obviously witnessed the whole thing - you did not. And that person stated that the lady immediately hurried out the door as soon as the worker said ""Ya, and we believe that he still is today - in us too." My impression on reading the whole book of workers' sermons is that that lady did not even stay put long enough to hear "We could get together and - and talk when you have time."
And I doubt that you have read the first two sermons in which Jesus is NOT identified in accord with God's word, as was 'promised' in the workers newspaper ad. "Confronted" could have been "challenged" - believers do that in obedience to God's instruction to defend the faith once delivered to the saints. I think "confronted" is what the lady did in that obedience, especially by quoting Scripture in the process.
But certainly, you are free to not read the instance or the first two sermons and formulate your opinion from just the four lines quoted (for focus).
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Jul 25, 2019 14:07:49 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 25, 2019 14:07:49 GMT -5
thats what i thought....you don't have anything but the two examples....back to ASSuming i guess.... And THAT is obvious - too lazy to go check it out for yourself. The two testimonies on this thread would be accepted evidence in a court of law, but not by YOU due to YOUR laziness to see for yourself. For your information, since I indicated where you could easily check it out for yourself, I opened the file and listed twenty statements by workers within 2 minutes that portray their belief that they are the word made flesh - of course, HIGH ABOVE all their followers. Gratu: Your statement,
"The two testimonies on this thread would be accepted evidence in a court of law,"
Your statement is not true, because they are not facts and only what someone is supposed to have SAID! That called Hearsay and as such is not admissible except as provided by law under certain rules of law and these do not qualify under those rules.
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Jul 25, 2019 14:21:50 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 14:21:50 GMT -5
"Your statement is not true, " - I won't type that alias with my inclination to typos and spelling errors.
Foe your information, the testimony on page one WAS given in a court of law and it was not thrown out or stricken from the court record. So your opinion sadly lacks knowledge of actual court cases that involved 2x2s.
Edit - That court disallowed "religious" testimony at a lower court, which SILENCED the lawyer for plaintiff and therefore the case got raised to the highest court where case specific religious influences affecting the case were (perhaps reluctantly) accepted into evidence.
Edit 2 -If you like I will tell you which court to apply to to obtain its hundreds of pages of court transcript at $2.50 per page. But some of those court transcripts are posted on this board in the "To 2x2 With Love3" thread through the link in its opening post
And with this info provided, frankly I am done wasting my time on this thread.
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Jul 25, 2019 14:40:22 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jul 25, 2019 14:40:22 GMT -5
if you've got more proof then come forward with it and by proof you had better have over 1000 worker written testimonies saying that they believe they are Jesus in the flesh or God in the flesh.... Apparently you only see and only read what you want to see or read - I already TOLD YOU that would be a waste of my time. You have access to the collection of quotations of workers provided on this board - do your own homework for a change and due to your obvious lack of interest in learning on your own by taking a look at the evidence, I will not now even link it here to make your homework easy for you to do.. And I gratu, - I have a 9" x 12" metal box (which was specially made by my husband for his parents) -which is full of tightly folded workers letters and convention sermons.
Most all are single typed on onion skin paper,* -going back to at least the early 1900's. That evidence is monumental beside your few examples of "quotes."
* onion skin paper check what that means if you don't know
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Jul 25, 2019 14:48:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2019 14:48:06 GMT -5
"And I gratu, - I have a 9" x 12" metal box ..."
So scan all that evidence, do optical character recognition on the scan-images and post your evidence - I have posted plenty of the evidence in worker's words long ago.
repeat - And with this info provided, frankly I am done wasting my time on this thread.
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