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Post by Dennis J on Jul 24, 2019 3:01:34 GMT -5
Once, accepting the need for place rule and honor, it became a very sad day for me to discover I had begun to worship workers rather than my Lord. You see, I had been taught to believe and think of them as if they WERE Jesus Christ come in the flesh for my salvation. Of course I do know better now! But that IS what I had been taught to nelieve as true!
Gradually though I first began to see what I had been taught, was flat out WRONG! Yes, parents you can teach and allow your blessed loved children to love the workers, but please, please do so with teaching them a caveat or two! First, teach them nobody, has any right to touch them where their swim suits cover their body, except doctors and nurses, trying to help them medically, or even their parents if their body tells them it feels funny or strange. That is to be saved for a loving marriage partner!
Please teach them this. Assert boldly no TRUE servant of God would EVER touch them like that, and they should flee that worker and come tell their parent(s) about it immediately! Sometimes, very sadly, a mother needs to warn a child even about a father’s actions like that, and much more rarely a father needs to warn a child about even a mother’s similar actions. Then there are siblings, other relations!
Yes, of course, such a thing requires caution, tact, loving kindness! No, it will not be easy.. Such advice and counsel for a child SHOULD come from both mom and dad at the very same time! You will be doing your sweet loving child a great favor. Now, as an adult, I wish my parents had taught me such a thing, about even close relations! Even yet, I cannot speak of what I experienced! Suspect I am not the only adult in this position neither.
Yes, I did try to teach my own children.
DAJ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 5:09:08 GMT -5
Aside from your very good advice for parents in regard to protecting their children, what strikes me too is your testimony to having been taught that workers are Jesus come in the flesh.
My memory of that teaching is vivid because along with the other claims workers made that belong to Jesus alone, that teaching pushed me out of the 2x2 church.
But what is even more regarding the memory of that teaching is that later in life when I was confronting workers for such teachings THAT is the most angrily denied. But they are caught still teaching it in different words of course – so filled with ambiguity that if one blinked one would completely miss it. For example a worker being confronted with his clear denial that Jesus is God referring to the Bible saying that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, replied, “We believe he still is (manifest in the flesh) today, in us.” This time they cannot deny teaching it because it is on audio record. - and they can get as angry as they like over that because the reason some have resorted to recording their speech is because they angrily denied teaching things we knew they do teach.
So it is good for me to see that you also remember being taught that workers were Jesus come in the flesh. And that teaching coupled with all the reminders preached about the friends indebtedness to those who sacrificed all to bring them the gospel shows that workers do think of themselves as messiahs in place of the only Messiah.
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Jul 24, 2019 12:47:23 GMT -5
Post by Dennis J on Jul 24, 2019 12:47:23 GMT -5
Yessir, m’ friend. Once I was taught to teach it, too. Workers are taught to judge whether what they have in life to express is approved is by other workers the strength of the “amens” they hear from other workers at convention/special meeting time. It is only by our Lord’s grace that any of us are ever delivered from that “place” oriented system!
Thank you, my Lord, Yahu’shuah! My God/savior who died for me. “Was it for me, for me alone...?” Please help me to keep my focus upon You, now at the end of my life...yes, m’ Lord, I am begging, for I am naught but a beggar, and never more aware of it than at every present moment. Dennis
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Jul 24, 2019 12:52:14 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 24, 2019 12:52:14 GMT -5
Yessir, m’ friend. Once I was taught to teach it, too. Workers are taught to judge whether what they have in life to express is approved is by other workers the strength of the “amens” they hear from other workers at convention/special meeting time. It is only by our Lord’s grace that any of us are ever delivered from that “place” oriented system!
Thank you, my Lord, Yahu’shuah! My God/savior who died for me. “Was it for me, for me alone...?” Please help me to keep my focus upon You, now at the end of my life...yes, m’ Lord, I am begging, for I am naught but a beggar, and never more aware of it than at every present moment. Dennis Amen! And for me too, Lord!
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Post by magpie1 on Jul 24, 2019 18:39:30 GMT -5
This is why they don't teach the deity of the Holy Spirit and Jesus (As equals in the Godhead)it takes their power away from God's gift of Grace. And makes their,blinded, followers think they are blessed by the sects Ministry as "worthy"of being accepted by them(man) and in their bondage "Gospel". Magpie. Amen to the above entries,thankyou.. Magpie
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Post by Gene on Jul 24, 2019 19:19:18 GMT -5
Horsefeathers. I was 10 years in that work and 36 years a member of that church and never once did I hear it taught or even insinuated that the workers were Jesus come in the flesh.
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Jul 24, 2019 20:38:44 GMT -5
Post by Dennis J on Jul 24, 2019 20:38:44 GMT -5
Attn, ADMIN! Please address this issue forthwith!
Gene! Nothing is more offensive in my opinion than to be publicly ridiculed as a liar. That is what you have just done to a couple of us!
What you have just expressed is undoubtedly true for you. It is not true for me. Either retract your assertion or be prepared for its consequences! If you stand by your assertion this will be the very first time I have ever lost ALL respect for you.
The verses, I John 4:1-3, were those being used to justify that teaching. I can even remember where I first was taught it applied to me as a worker, thus proving we also came from God! This is not even disputable for me. Now please retract your so very unreasonable post. I CAN prove what I HAVE ASSERTED HERE!, when and where! (Olympia II convention, late 60’s) Surely you cannot. So who is off base here?
BTW, I AM VERY GLAD YOU WERE NOT SUBJECT TO THE TEACHING!
Sincerely,
Dennis Alan Jacobsen
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Jul 24, 2019 20:57:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 20:57:25 GMT -5
Well, Gene, imagine that – not an angry denial like I received from many workers, but just a “horsefeather” brush off as if just because you did not “hear” it in 10 years of ambiguous teaching in place of former clear teaching of it, of course it is horsefeathers TO YOU.
What do YOU do now with the audio record of it still being taught after you are not in the work any longer? I suppose now you just don't read the transcript? Such audio records were made just for your type of 2x2. So deny it all you like - you are beating the wind with your denial.
I wonder, would you like the WHOLE transcript so you can deny other stuff it contains?
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Jul 24, 2019 21:07:45 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2019 21:07:45 GMT -5
Aside from your very good advice for parents in regard to protecting their children, what strikes me too is your testimony to having been taught that workers are Jesus come in the flesh.
My memory of that teaching is vivid because along with the other claims workers made that belong to Jesus alone, that teaching pushed me out of the 2x2 church.
But what is even more regarding the memory of that teaching is that later in life when I was confronting workers for such teachings THAT is the most angrily denied. But they are caught still teaching it in different words of course – so filled with ambiguity that if one blinked one would completely miss it. For example a worker being confronted with his clear denial that Jesus is God referring to the Bible saying that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, replied, “We believe he still is (manifest in the flesh) today, in us.” This time they cannot deny teaching it because it is on audio record. - and they can get as angry as they like over that because the reason some have resorted to recording their speech is because they angrily denied teaching things we knew they do teach.
So it is good for me to see that you also remember being taught that workers were Jesus come in the flesh. And that teaching coupled with all the reminders preached about the friends indebtedness to those who sacrificed all to bring them the gospel shows that workers do think of themselves as messiahs in place of the only Messiah. Gratu,
In answer to your claim: "For example a worker being confronted with his clear denial that Jesus is God referring to the Bible saying that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, replied, 'We believe he still is (manifest in the flesh) today, in us.' ”
Don't you think that perhaps that worker did not mean just the workers alone but everyone within the 2x2'S?
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Jul 24, 2019 21:15:30 GMT -5
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Post by nathan on Jul 24, 2019 21:15:30 GMT -5
Horsefeathers. I was 10 years in that work and 36 years a member of that church and never once did I hear it taught or even insinuated that the workers were Jesus come in the flesh. * * I agree with Gene, here. All my 7 yrs in the work I did NOT teach the workers are Jesus comes in the flesh! We teach, workers are servants or messengers of Jesus.
The older generation of workers might teach they were Jesus comes in the flesh but NOT during my generation in the work from 1980-90s.
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Jul 24, 2019 21:18:50 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 21:18:50 GMT -5
Here is the specific teaching in transcript. Gene
A lady confronted these preachers regarding the identity of Jesus Christ after this first "Lecture" was finished:
¥ Joe Lewis - "We don't believe that Jesus is God."
¥ The Lady - "'I and the Father are one.'" "manifested - it does say he was God manifested in the flesh."
¥ Joe Lewis - "Ya, and we believe that he still is today - in us too. We truly are Christians. We could get together and - and talk when you have time."
Edit - I also posess the audio record in mp3, but posting that here for listening 'enjoyment' is something that seems impossible on this board.
(Oh, yes, a lady is surely going to welcome two single men to ”get together” with her for 'private discussions' that obviously oppose Scripture)
And here is the Whole transcript for you too, Gene – free to download if you please. Allow lots of download space because this transcript would print to something near 100 pages.
drive.google.com/file/d/1tYHb7ZB7mrGJ3LZooirW96A0AZRjQjld/view?usp=sharing
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Jul 24, 2019 21:21:06 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2019 21:21:06 GMT -5
Attn, ADMIN! Please address this issue forthwith!
Gene! Nothing is more offensive in my opinion than to be publicly ridiculed as a liar. That is what you have just done to a couple of us!
What you have just expressed is undoubtedly true for you. It is not true for me. Either retract your assertion or be prepared for its consequences! If you stand by your assertion this will be the very first time I have ever lost ALL respect for you.
The verses, I John 4:1-3, were those being used to justify that teaching. I can even remember where I first was taught it applied to me as a worker, thus proving we also came from God! This is not even disputable for me. Now please retract your so very unreasonable post. I CAN prove what I HAVE ASSERTED HERE!, when and where! (Olympia II convention, late 60’s) Surely you cannot. So who is off base here?
BTW, I AM VERY GLAD YOU WERE NOT SUBJECT TO THE TEACHING!
Sincerely,
Dennis Alan Jacobsen
Dennis!
No need for you to jump all over Gene! Gene doesn't to have to retract his statement! He said what HE knew from being in the work.
Gene did NOT call you a liar!
Perhaps you & gratu wrongly INTERPRETATED what a worker said!
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Jul 24, 2019 21:30:56 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 21:30:56 GMT -5
I also possess the audio record in mp3, in which the inflection of voice shows that the 'interpretation' (aka TRANSCRIPT) is what was meant - but posting mp3s seems impossible on this board. And due to such 'possible' denial of audio record in transcript by this very 'interpretation' suggestion, some have taken now to doing video records of workers sermons so as to see the body inflections that accompany the audio inflections.
But please, do feel welcome to continue beating the wind - that teaching is documented very solidly such that the record would stand as sound evidence in a court of law..
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Jul 24, 2019 21:34:02 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2019 21:34:02 GMT -5
Here is the specific teaching in transcript. Gene A lady confronted these preachers regarding the identity of Jesus Christ after this first "Lecture" was finished:
¥ Joe Lewis - "We don't believe that Jesus is God."
¥ The Lady - "'I and the Father are one.'" "manifested - it does say he was God manifested in the flesh."
¥ Joe Lewis - "Ya, and we believe that he still is today - in us too. We truly are Christians. We could get together and - and talk when you have time."
Edit - I also posess the audio record in mp3, but posting that here for listening 'enjoyment' is something that seems impossible on this board.
(Oh, yes, a lady is surely going to welcome two single men to ”get together” with her for 'private discussions' that obviously oppose Scripture)
And here is the Whole transcript for you too, Gene – free to download if you please. Allow lots of download space because this transcript would print to something near 100 pages.
drive.google.com/file/d/1tYHb7ZB7mrGJ3LZooirW96A0AZRjQjld/view?usp=sharing
Why would any of us want to "download" any of the Lynden Bible Lectures?
I read the introductory page and could see from it that the writers was making nit-picking false claims!
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Jul 24, 2019 21:41:27 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 21:41:27 GMT -5
Well, Dennis, the evidence now coming rapid-fire on this thread resembles the 'angry' denials I got from workers - even one who doesn't believe God exists is doing the most pounding on denial - BIG SMILE.
Some will never give up denying what WE BOTH WERE TAUGHT BY WORKERS. And both of us heard them teaching us for YEARS, not just by one transcript. The doctrine is THAT important that former 2x2s have no choice if they like 2x2 doctrines but to DENY those of this type until hell freezes over.
So, my friend, when their haze is completely fogging the facts in this thread, I will take PDF copy of this thread for storage for the benefit of posterity. THAT is the vivid importance of YOUR testimony regarding this particular teaching, Dennis - and a very special thank you for that TESTIMONY at this time. Your TESTIMONY will survive you Dennis.
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Jul 24, 2019 21:44:28 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 24, 2019 21:44:28 GMT -5
I also possess the audio record in mp3, in which the inflection of voice shows that the 'interpretation' (aka TRANSCRIPT) is what was meant - but posting mp3s seems impossible on this board. And due to such 'possible' denial of audio record in transcript by this very 'interpretation' suggestion, some have taken now to doing video records of workers sermons so as to see the body inflections that accompany the audio inflections.
But please, do feel welcome to continue beating the wind - that teaching is documented very solidly such that the record would stand as sound evidence in a court of law.. I think that this phrase of workers being God manifested in the flesh likely started just like the lie that the group goes all the way back to the shores of Galilee did. It was someone who said whatever they meant to say in such couching of terms that some who heard it started repeating it until it became a routine perpetuated lie. And why some never heard it that way is because it just didn’t get picked up by those workers either to having not heard it or knew better. Just like the British Isles and Australia know the origins of the group with WI. They find it nearly laughable that some or a lot of us in USA heard the lies that the group went all the way back to the shores of Galilee or are a continuation of the Acts of the Apostles. That’s why written history and tenets of faith are helpful.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:09:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:09:35 GMT -5
WOW, that PDF copy seems to have shut off the fire hose. The PDF is now stored for posterity.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:12:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:12:24 GMT -5
WOW, that PDF copy seems to have shut off the fire hose. The PDF is now stored for posterity. you have no idea how a forum works do you....
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Jul 24, 2019 22:22:35 GMT -5
Post by speak on Jul 24, 2019 22:22:35 GMT -5
Attn, ADMIN! Please address this issue forthwith!
Gene! Nothing is more offensive in my opinion than to be publicly ridiculed as a liar. That is what you have just done to a couple of us!
What you have just expressed is undoubtedly true for you. It is not true for me. Either retract your assertion or be prepared for its consequences! If you stand by your assertion this will be the very first time I have ever lost ALL respect for you.
The verses, I John 4:1-3, were those being used to justify that teaching. I can even remember where I first was taught it applied to me as a worker, thus proving we also came from God! This is not even disputable for me. Now please retract your so very unreasonable post. I CAN prove what I HAVE ASSERTED HERE!, when and where! (Olympia II convention, late 60’s) Surely you cannot. So who is off base here?
BTW, I AM VERY GLAD YOU WERE NOT SUBJECT TO THE TEACHING!
Sincerely,
Dennis Alan Jacobsen
Get over it man you're a big boy now.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:24:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:24:26 GMT -5
WOW, that PDF copy seems to have shut off the fire hose. The PDF is now stored for posterity. you have no idea how a forum works do you.... What does knowing how a forum works have to do with the testimony comtained in this thread with the sudden flood of denial of that testimony, Wally?
It seems YOU are just trying to divert from the testimony. Why not give us your view on the testimony - huh?
Edit - And here we go, the flood of 2x2 favorers trying to bury the testimony in diversion and now in RIDICULE (ad hominem) by speak (above post) I'll wait a bit to take second PDF copy for posterity - just so posterity can learn how forums work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:33:29 GMT -5
you have no idea how a forum works do you.... What does knowing how a forum works have to do with the testimony comtained in this thread with the sudden flood of denial of that testimony, Wally? It seems YOU are just trying to divert from the testimony. Why not give us your view on the testimony - huh? dennis may have heard such but in my 40 years in the truth i haven't heard such....
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Jul 24, 2019 22:36:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:36:19 GMT -5
What does knowing how a forum works have to do with the testimony comtained in this thread with the sudden flood of denial of that testimony, Wally? It seems YOU are just trying to divert from the testimony. Why not give us your view on the testimony - huh? dennis may have heard such but in my 40 years in the truth i haven't heard such.... So what Wally - maybe you only hear what you want to hear - i.e., NOW you have a transcript of the teaching in 1996 to READ, and still not hear. So far it seems you don't read either - Dennis testified that he was not only TAUGHT the doctrine, but was TOLD to teach it. And that doctrine (along with others like it) DROVE me out of the 2x2 church.
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Jul 24, 2019 22:44:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:44:19 GMT -5
dennis may have heard such but in my 40 years in the truth i haven't heard such.... So what Wally - maybe you only hear what you want to hear - NOW you have a transcript of the teaching in 1996 to READ, and still not hear. So far it seems you don't read either - Dennis testified that he was not only TAUGHT the doctrine, but was TOLD to teach it. And that doctrine (along with others like it) DROVE me out of the 2x2 church. you'll have to narrow it down to a specific page please i'm not gonna wade through 100 pages....
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Jul 24, 2019 22:59:39 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 22:59:39 GMT -5
Just as a significant observation, that worker who said workers (or all 2x2s for that matter) are God manifest in the flesh is fortunate he made THAT claim in 1996, Lynden Washington - if he made THAT claim in the First Century, Jerusalem, he would have caused any workers that existed in that time be lined up for crucifixion beside Jesus for blasphemy, i.e.,making themselves God. It is no wonder the believing lady (stranger) immediately 'ran' out the door - as if being chased by a demon!!!
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Jul 24, 2019 23:06:36 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2019 23:06:36 GMT -5
So what Wally - maybe you only hear what you want to hear - NOW you have a transcript of the teaching in 1996 to READ, and still not hear. So far it seems you don't read either - Dennis testified that he was not only TAUGHT the doctrine, but was TOLD to teach it. And that doctrine (along with others like it) DROVE me out of the 2x2 church. you'll have to narrow it down to a specific page please i'm not gonna wade through 100 pages.... Sorry Wally - if you want to see it alone, you do your own homework - I have already done my job on this thread by quoting that specific statement above - in the PDF you can perform a digital search and find it yourself really easily but you may have to download that pdf before a digital search of it is made available to you in the actual PDF file. By the way, PDF files do not necessarily contain printed page numbers - (big smile) PDF files contain the entire text and graphics in exact copy of the digital source and only if printed page numbers are included in the source will they show up in the PDF file. In this case there are no page numbers, but each sermon has its own page, titled by the title given by workers' public advertisement, and each worker is on separate page in speaking order - you won't need to read much to come across the above quotation of that specific statement because it is in note form recorded and transcribed AFTER the workers' first subject, "Who Jesus is and his relationship to God." Now your homework has been made very easy for you hasn't it? But by your performance on this thread so far, I doubt that YOU will bother doing your own homework.
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Post by Dennis J on Jul 24, 2019 23:41:28 GMT -5
Wally, there is just no “maybe” about it. Why is my word not good enough for you? I don’t need this kind of crap! Yeah, just get over it! You guys reveal so much about yourselves by your inability to accept what another relates as true, here!
Other fine people have simply left the forum, rather than try to help people like you, i’m Thinking they were the wise ones.
Dennis
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Post by Pragmatic on Jul 24, 2019 23:42:57 GMT -5
To be honest, I have never heard this in my 40+ years in the church. I am not saying others haven't, and, and if workers were preaching this somewhere, then they were on a very slipper slope, to say the least.
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Post by Dennis J on Jul 25, 2019 0:05:25 GMT -5
Upon hearing this doctrine, in the brother’s quarters, I began to first raise questions about it. There must have been twenty some present. Over half, as I recall, supported that view of I John 4:1-3. That Gene was in the work and thus knows better than me what I did or did not hear is foolish reasoning. I was also in that work, fully preparing to leave my homeland and loved ones forever. Oh yeah, I forgot, my being excommunicated erases all of that. (Sad, sad, smile.)
Gratu; thank you so very much. I was merely giving as honest of an account as I possibly could! Really grateful for your documentation... DAJ
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