Charles Storck AKA SL
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Post by Charles Storck AKA SL on Jun 12, 2007 10:26:18 GMT -5
I thought this should be a new thread.
Seems some like to make big issues of leaving meetings as if one is walking away from God. On the Contrary-most walk closer to God
Posted by studylearning on Jul 2, 2006, 1:35am
Well now I want to make this as short as possible. After returning to my home State I found myself living with my elderly mom who professed for over 70 years.
I want to stress this issue. My mom professed for over 70 years. I B&R went on my life's walk about. I and my mom had many discussions and sharing of God in-spite of the fact I was not going to meetings. I did returned to meetings later and was professing for some time. I am not in the dark on this fellowship being 57 years of age
To continue: Our old neighbor hood was tuff now. Some really gang banger types. Even some killings a few houses away.
Well anyway after only being there for a few months, one morning after a snow fall, this large black fellow was out shoveling the walk. I was thinking to myself, Oh boy moms getting hustled by this guy. This guy did not know I was living there now and there really was not much snow.
So I inquired of this fellows intentions. He said to me--"Oh no no Mom needs help and I help when I can." I went out and helped him finish the job and we did another old couple also.
Well that set me out to know a little more about this very tuff gang guy who would turn aside to help my mom and others. He was reformed. He was broken in heart from all he had been through. He was trying to build a new life and left that gang crowd.
Over the years we got to know each other very well. He called me pops because I was there for him when his own father was not.
I used to sit on his porch late in the night talking about many things including Gods Grace through Jesus.
Addition-We also went a few times over to visit a lad who was no longer professing from and elders family. The other 2x2's shunned him. My friend knew him from his work before he got sick
Many others (some very tuff gang types and other friends from the block) would come and we would have very good discussions. I became the block home boy "pops" to many. Well my friend was very keen on the spiritual things but still not letting go. He started to get very sick. Genetic heart failure. He lost His mom and then his younger sister at a young age of 35. After that he was totally chastened and brought down to humbleness.
He would call me when he was down and I would visit sometime as late as 2AM. We started to read his bible together as I was trying to give him hope to do all that was possible for his health.
I can say at that time in his life he was in fact one of those who Jesus taught in the Blessing on the Mount. His health rapidly went down hill. He left about Christmas time to visit one of his other sisters down south. He called after he came home and told me his Liver was failing. I never had a chance to see my friend again. No one knew how to get in touch with me.
When I found out about his death it was almost two months late. I called his place and stopped by but never an answer. I checked with the hospitals but no, he was not there. I finally collected myself and checked with one of the gang guys and found out my friend passed on. I found out his fathers address from this guy. I stopped by to pay my respects.
His father told me he was glad that I came. He mentioned that his son spoke kindly of me. He mentioned that I helped him to gain some faith and hope which led to a reconcile between them.
He told me that his son was reading the bible much, going to Church with a very new heart and Spirit. I was happy that this very young friend of mine found peace. I feel that yes He was with Holy Spirit when he passed on.
Do you understand what I am saying here. I give witness that God in his love touched a young man whose life was coming to an end after many sins. The Holy Spirit had his hand when he crossed over.
I shared this in a shorter version in our Union Meeting and to state that I was happy He found salvation before he passed.
The workers visited me in short time. The rebuke was clear.
My Testimony was not Edifying. "Surely I can't believe that one could have salvation in another Church."
I spoke on these issue before and others had complained. Probably true. I have said in testimony that we (The F&W) have no claim on the Gifts of God. I have also shared with others who ask of me what I thought about the exclusiveness of the F&W. I told them the same as I tell others. It is the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost who sets our song. Nothing else can destroy that if one is regenerated. We must not put ourselves in higher esteem than others for it is all according to Gods will.
Well my rebuke included
I was unwilling because I did not see it their way. I was not in the right spirit because I did not agree with them to be silent on these matters To speak these things is not edifying. Well you know They said, "It is there responsibility to keep things right for their Church." Well that last is very true.
Addition--I was asked what the Church is. I told them and in doing so mentioned Jesus God incarnate and they said they do not teach that. I asked Who is Emmanuel? There was no answer. So let me clarify why I stopped going to meetings.
1. To commit blasphemy is: (As taken out of my Cambridge KJV Bible)
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost' is a sin for which there is not forgiveness. The context shows that this sin consists in willfully regarding as evil and the work of the devil something which is plainly good and the work of the Spirit of God. A person who does this is in a state of will(.AI rebellion against the Divine Spirit, the only Power capable of reforming and sanctifying them. That person's forgiveness is therefore a moral impossibility.
I could not willfully deny that which I have seen. To do that could be my eternal death. It is better to error on the side of acceptance rather than to error in rejection thereby damning yourself
2. Incarnation is also found in my KJV bible Dictionary. It is found in the section under "GOD". It says:
The fuller knowledge of God which has come to us through the Incarnation and the gift of the Spirit has enabled the Christian Church to see that there is within the Godhead a distinction of "Person". The paragraphs after that speak and explain the Trinity
1 Tim 3
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
What does Matthew teach:
Matthew 1
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
I believe these verses are very telling. Johns Gospel also speaks of this:
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The fact is that God came for us in the flesh. There would be no such thing as INCARNATION if this were not true.
Why do not the workers teach this?
Lets add some more; Isaiah 45
21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Very compelling if you study a little deeper.
So then if they (The workers) do not teach the Incarnation, What do they teach? They would not answer this question.
The fellowship in their teaching want people to deny the HOLY SPIRIT and the Fullness of who Jesus is by default. The WI issue is nothing compared to these issues. Some say it is not that way in their area. Well until there is consensus across the board in the fellowship (of just what they believe in these areas) then there will be division. It must be clear as to the beliefs in these two areas. Either you believe them (F&W) or the word of GOD according to the Bible.
I stand for God and my Lord Jesus.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 12, 2007 13:04:30 GMT -5
SL,
I, too, hope the workers will come to agreement on the above subjects.
I accept the news that our group is only 100 years old. And I think that many of those who went into the work (like most of the believers) were simply babes in Christ, (with many of us) needing to learn the basics of our faith together.
Therefore, we focused on what we could understand: and did our best within the limits of our understanding.
Complex subjects were beyond our ability to grasp and understand. Or even wonder about, perhaps.
Today, I think, there are some who have spiritually matured (beyond the rest of us) and therefore, there now exists the differences of opinions on the complex subjects. With some, just now, starting to wonder about what they're reading, while others have already worked those subjects through, and have now arrived at their conclusions.
New growth always involves a struggle (within and without)...But those struggles mean "Life" exists within us (as individuals and as a group). And while some may see that as "bad", I think life itself, teaches us that (that struggle) is (in reality), and over time, proved to be "good".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 16:10:45 GMT -5
SL, I, too, hope the workers will come to agreement on the above subjects. I accept the news that our group is only 100 years old. And I think that many of those who went into the work (like most of the believers) were simply babes in Christ, (with many of us) needing to learn the basics of our faith together. Therefore, we focused on what we could understand: and did our best within the limits of our understanding. Complex subjects were beyond our ability to grasp and understand. Or even wonder about, perhaps. Today, I think, there are some who have spiritually matured (beyond the rest of us) and therefore, there now exists the differences of opinions on the complex subjects. With some, just now, starting to wonder about what they're reading, while others have already worked those subjects through, and have now arrived at their conclusions. New growth always involves a struggle (within and without)...But those struggles mean "Life" exists within us (as individuals and as a group). And while some may see that as "bad", I think life itself, teaches us that (that struggle) is (in reality), and over time, proved to be "good". Exactly right, well put. As Leslie White was quoted recently "We are still learning". Some f&ws are still "truth seekers", which is what we should all be all our lives as it makes growth possible. "Truth finders" are more likely to get stuck in a less developed state, not so close to God. Nature tells us that growth and pain are closely associated. It is true with f&ws. There are struggles happening right now, it is painful for some but I have at least faint hope that the future will be better than it is today. Perhaps the exes are the smart ones. They got off the train and left the rest of us to work toward a better future.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 16:53:42 GMT -5
Exactly right, well put. As Leslie White was quoted recently "We are still learning". Some f&ws are still "truth seekers", which is what we should all be all our lives as it makes growth possible. "Truth finders" are more likely to get stuck in a less developed state, not so close to God. Nature tells us that growth and pain are closely associated. It is true with f&ws. There are struggles happening right now, it is painful for some but I have at least faint hope that the future will be better than it is today. Perhaps the exes are the smart ones. They got off the train and left the rest of us to work toward a better future. ~~~ Oh... CD... are you saying the friends, the workers like myself and you are not smart because we decided to stay on the train? ;D I don't think so. We are much SMARTER than you think because we have tested and proved the Spirit of God in our own lives.
From reading many of your posts I will not be Surprised at all that you might get off/jump off the train someday. You don't look like a happy, satisfy 2x2 (friend) by reading your posts on here.
Yes, I am aware of these things within the fellowship you are talking about.... I see the cup half Full ;D.... you see the cup half empty. God is STILL in control... These things are happening for reasons! fear not. Just be sure you don't get a bitter spirit about it.Nathan, if I was going to get off this train, it would have happened a long time ago. Personally I'm extremely happy about my faith but yes, my view is that the fellowship is not in good shape at this time and much can be done to make it a good and safe place for believers. I'm neither a glass half full person, nor a glass half empty person, I just like the truth about things, no more no less, no candy coating, no graffiti. I have no agenda here except to determine the truth and tell it like it is. I realize that there are many people here like yourself who don't want to do that, either pro or con, but I'm not playing that game.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 12, 2007 17:06:28 GMT -5
Clearday,
You've made my day!! And given me such a good laugh. (But, I think the joke's on them...) They only THINK they escaped this train. But take a good look--and see who's really working (so hard) pushing and pulling this train...
You and I are only getting off it (to toss them a cookie now and then): while the other ones(in our group) are simply riding happily along--until we reach our final destination!
So maybe they didn't escape...and maybe,...we're not so dumb after all!!!
I, too, have hope for our future. And you're right: it is the truth seekers who have made the difference. And (while I'm just a follower) it's good to hear your voice: and that your hope is like mine.
Keep posting ! And representing our group in your great way!
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Post by Zorro on Jun 12, 2007 17:21:03 GMT -5
Perhaps the exes are the smart ones. They got off the train and left the rest of us to work toward a better future.
This brings up an extremely interesting, and I feel widely unacknowledged point, Clearday. I know for certain that many exes, including myself, truly loved the fellowship and tried for years to help create that better future you spoke of. To me that future was one built on solid, consistent doctrine....free of fear to serve God as moved by him......a fellowship bound by unconditional love.......etc. What is unfathomable to many f&ws is that most (at least that I personally know) of the exes do not leave because of ill feelings toward the fellowship, but because of the love of God. Unfortunately, very few f&ws will accept those "terms" and the exit process immediately turns Ugly (with a capital U). That process reveals a side that many have never seen before and the view is changed for good.
I appreciate your posts.
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ann
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Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
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Post by ann on Jun 12, 2007 17:22:37 GMT -5
to clearday & as I C it - an honest from the heart question - if what you say is true (my words) you want the truth, no sugar, straight - how can you stay in a group who does everything but straight clear truth? Won't answer honest questions and are so cruel & dishonest to seeking, searching folks? Or is it because you have not experienced that type of behavior? If not, you are truly fortunate.
I know you won't respond to anonymous posts - which I guess answers my last question.
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Post by happyasalark on Jun 12, 2007 17:26:03 GMT -5
Exactly right, well put. As Leslie White was quoted recently "We are still learning". Some f&ws are still "truth seekers", which is what we should all be all our lives as it makes growth possible. "Truth finders" are more likely to get stuck in a less developed state, not so close to God. Nature tells us that growth and pain are closely associated. It is true with f&ws. There are struggles happening right now, it is painful for some but I have at least faint hope that the future will be better than it is today. Perhaps the exes are the smart ones. They got off the train and left the rest of us to work toward a better future. ~~~ Oh... CD... are you saying the friends, the workers like myself and you are not smart because we decided to stay on the train? ;D I don't think so. We are much SMARTER than you think because we have tested and proved the Spirit of God in our own lives.
From reading many of your posts I will not be Surprised at all that you might get off/jump off the train someday. You don't look like a happy, satisfy 2x2 (friend) by reading your posts on here.
Yes, I am aware of these things within the fellowship you are talking about.... I see the cup half Full ;D.... you see the cup half empty. God is STILL in control... These things are happening for reasons! fear not. Just be sure you don't get a bitter spirit about it.Nathan, you need to open your eyes and see the truth for what it is. You are not following the right people. You are blind following the blind. You have no idea what a real christian is. You sure won't find it in the 2x2 system. There is nothing christian about them.
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Post by diet coke on Jun 12, 2007 20:22:47 GMT -5
to clearday & as I C it - an honest from the heart question - if what you say is true (my words) you want the truth, no sugar, straight - how can you stay in a group who does everything but straight clear truth? Won't answer honest questions and are so cruel & dishonest to seeking, searching folks? Or is it because you have not experienced that type of behavior? If not, you are truly fortunate. Ann, most of us are b&r. Most of us stay in because it is our roots, our heritage, our friends, our life. Is it perfect? Heck, no, it's just another religion. All this talk about doctrine and "right" and "wrong" is silliness...if we really want to search for "truth", we'll probably have to discard religion entirely, since there is no way to "know" anything for sure about God...but faith & fellowship is important to the human condition, and the 2x2 way is a very good way, and...contradict this is you really dare...we feel the Spirit the same as you do in your religion. Yes, we have problems...but why would we leave?
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Post by IRONMAN on Jun 12, 2007 20:41:29 GMT -5
Life.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 21:27:18 GMT -5
to clearday & as I C it - an honest from the heart question - if what you say is true (my words) you want the truth, no sugar, straight - how can you stay in a group who does everything but straight clear truth? Won't answer honest questions and are so cruel & dishonest to seeking, searching folks? Or is it because you have not experienced that type of behavior? If not, you are truly fortunate. I know you won't respond to anonymous posts - which I guess answers my last question. Ann, I don't mind answering anon questions which have any ring of sincerity to them, and yours certainly does. I think you missed my intentions on the post you are responding to. You seem to be thinking that I "want the truth" and am prepared to sit back and absorb everything I hear in the fellowship and call it "truth". Far from it. What I said in my post is this: " I have no agenda here except to determine the truth and tell it like it is." That agenda applies not only for this board, but for the fellowship too. So I see myself as actively trying to do something good, not just sitting back and high fiving all the workers and friends, or exes for that matter. Yes, I have both seen and experienced cruel behaviour in this church, seen lots of it. I don't stand by idly and watch either. I register my disgust with cruel activities plus try to pick up the pieces of those who get beaten down. The above are three very important reasons why I am committed to staying in this church. I feel strongly needed even if a little unpopular. I can appreciate people getting out when treated badly but I'm fortunate in that I have a high pain threshold! That being said, it's not all bad either, and I'm extremely blessed to have some professing friends who are traveling the same road that I am whom I can be completely free and open with. Some days, I am absolutely thrilled to be in the place I am and to have the opportunities I have to do what I am doing. Hope this helps explain a little what you were looking for. If not, let me know and I will try again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 21:37:53 GMT -5
Perhaps the exes are the smart ones. They got off the train and left the rest of us to work toward a better future.This brings up an extremely interesting, and I feel widely unacknowledged point, Clearday. I know for certain that many exes, including myself, truly loved the fellowship and tried for years to help create that better future you spoke of. To me that future was one built on solid, consistent doctrine....free of fear to serve God as moved by him......a fellowship bound by unconditional love.......etc. What is unfathomable to many f&ws is that most (at least that I personally know) of the exes do not leave because of ill feelings toward the fellowship, but because of the love of God. Unfortunately, very few f&ws will accept those "terms" and the exit process immediately turns Ugly (with a capital U). That process reveals a side that many have never seen before and the view is changed for good. I appreciate your posts. You sound like a reasonable guy with a conscience, too bad you're not still riding this train with me! No doubt though, you have found other useful things to do and that's ok. Progress is being made as we speak, but it is slow, requires tons of patience and realistic goals. I said to one of my friends a few years ago that while it is possible that things could leap forward in a very short period of time, realistically we have to be looking at a lifetime of working toward small victories for sound doctrines and an abundance of the Spirit amongst us. God hasn't given up on us yet so I won't either.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Jun 12, 2007 21:52:17 GMT -5
Charles Storck. Praise God your message to this man was about Jesus. Way to go! I love to hear a good gospel story. Brad
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 12, 2007 22:01:18 GMT -5
Again I see this notion that one has jumped off the train--being that the train in question is going in the right direction and it is the only train. Did I really jump off the train or did I transfer to a different line to keep me moving in the right direction. If the train I was on had indications that it was not safe for my salvation then I was right in changing lines. The train line that I now am signed up with teaches me not to throw people off the train when it is moving.
This Train line accepts people without tickets and helps them.
The line accepts
poor in spirit those that mourn the meek those that hunger and thirst after righteousness the merciful the pure in heart the peacemakers those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake Those who have been reviled and persecuted men, and have had all manner of evil leveled against them falsely, For Standing with Jesus
I walk in Jesus.
God Express is the best line to be on. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2007 22:08:33 GMT -5
Again I see this notion that one has jumped off the train--being that the train in question is going in the right direction and it is the only train. Did I really jump off the train or did I transfer to a different line to keep me moving in the right direction. If the train I was on had indications that it was not safe for my salvation then I was right in changing lines. The train line that I now am signed up with teaches me not to throw people off the train when it is moving. This Train line accepts people without tickets and helps them.
The line acceptspoor in spirit those that mourn the meek those that hunger and thirst after righteousness the merciful the pure in heart the peacemakers those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake Those who have been reviled and persecuted men, and have had all manner of evil leveled against them falsely, For Standing with Jesus I walk in Jesus. God Express is the best line to be on. ;D Charles, since I started the train metaphor, I will defend it. There was no inference that it is the only train or the only one going in the right direction. It referred to the 2x2 church group, no more, no less. That being said, I can understand your sensitivity to the exclusive nature of the church you just left. No doubt many will consider you holding a ticket bound for hell. However, not everyone in the church does, and my metaphor did not infer that. Have a good ride.
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 12, 2007 22:13:02 GMT -5
Correction
Again I see this notion that one has jumped off the train--being that the train in question is going in the right direction and it is the only train. Did I really jump off the train or did I transfer to a different line to keep me moving in the right direction. If the train I was on had indications that it was not safe for my salvation then I was right in changing lines. The train line that I now am signed up with teaches me not to throw people off the train when it is moving.
This Train line accepts people without tickets and helps them.
The line accepts
poor in spirit those that mourn the meek those that hunger and thirst after righteousness the merciful the pure in heart the peacemakers those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake Those who have been reviled and persecuted by men, and have had all manner of evil leveled against them falsely, For Standing with Jesus
I walk in Jesus.
God Express is the best line to be on. ;D
For Brad: The most important part of my standing is that I will not deny the Holy Spirit and God for any one. This was put foward to me as and either or situation by the Workers. I believe this to be a very serious breach in the teaching and Doctrine.
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ann
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Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
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Post by ann on Jun 12, 2007 23:57:14 GMT -5
clearday - thank you for your response. I admire your courage and strength in helping those who experience the nasty side of this group.
diet coke - I am B&R as well happy, grateful, and thankful for my freedom I'm on the God Express Thanks, clearday, for that metaphor; I like it.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 1:39:35 GMT -5
Ann,
Your simple question ended up causing me to do a lot of thinking--and responding--that far exceeded the question. So--to keep it simple, I'll just answer the question.
My answer is because of all that has already been stated. The Spirit I find there: and the social and family connections.
I'm sorry that you (and others) have been hurt by those in our church. Hopefully, that's one of the things that will change.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 12:09:49 GMT -5
Clearday,
I found this thread very interesting, in many ways.
1. From the 2x2's on it, it's very apparent to me that our church today is not the same church of say, 15 years ago. (The following is not intended to offend anyone. It's simply speculation about the types who make up our church of today).
1. We have Nathan: who could be classified as a "Traditionalist"
2. Clearday: who's an "activist"
3. Diet Coke: who is a total "realist".??..(bordering so close to heresy we may have to gather a pile of sticks later--)"just another religion?" and to find truth we may have to discard religion altogether?" (I may not know what category you fit into--but I know you're definitely not a traditionalist: and you have certainly described yourself right (so therefore, I said "realist")
4, And me: a "preservationist". Which is somewhere between maybe, all three. And a combination of all three. (Which may be what we all are: but unlike Clearday, I'm not actively engaged in the battle, as she is: nor am I as realistic as diet coke is--or out to preserve "the same" as Nathan is.)
Point #1: This is NOT the same type of believers as 15 years ago.
Point #2: How did the truth get spread in the New Testament? And--how has that same seed gotten spread in the last 15 years?
Being so interconnected through family and friends, excommunications produced ripples: ripples produced big waves: waves produced the internet: and whether one would call this movement "good" or "bad"...here we all are today...exes and innes--involved in "this movement".
I found that very interesting. And comforting. As we all know God is in control of His church. (And, of course, sheep must get slaughtered in the process of this movement: and hardship fall on all: for their to be new growth).
Anyways, fwiw, I enjoyed this speculation: it was simply "fun" for my mind. Please add/change/correct me as you wish.
So Clearday, how is it you're coming on so strong now??? (I was about to post a "Help wanted" sign: and suddenly--there you were). With a much stronger voice than before. (Or is that my imagination?)
Point #3: My "Agenda". I "see" the non-believers of the "the same" as departing next--either physically or spiritually. Either way, their departure will affect for us: and therefore, I'm "fighting" for the workers to: SOLVE THE PROBLEMS (before it's too late).
May I ask what you're fighting for/against?
And Charles, please forgive me for taking over your thread. However, this is somewhat in line with your testimony too. (Isn't it? Maybe??)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 12:59:17 GMT -5
Clearday, I found this thread very interesting, in many ways. 1. From the 2x2's on it, it's very apparent to me that our church today is not the same church of say, 15 years ago. (The following is not intended to offend anyone. It's simply speculation about the types who make up our church of today). 1. We have Nathan: who could be classified as a "Traditionalist" 2. Clearday: who's an "activist" 3. Diet Coke: who is a total "realist".??..(bordering so close to heresy we may have to gather a pile of sticks later--)"just another religion?" and to find truth we may have to discard religion altogether?" (I may not know what category you fit into--but I know you're definitely not a traditionalist: and you have certainly described yourself right (so therefore, I said "realist") 4, And me: a "preservationist". Which is somewhere between maybe, all three. And a combination of all three. (Which may be what we all are: but unlike Clearday, I'm not actively engaged in the battle, as she is: nor am I as realistic as diet coke is--or out to preserve "the same" as Nathan is.) Point #1: This is NOT the same type of believers as 15 years ago. Point #2: How did the truth get spread in the New Testament? And--how has that same seed gotten spread in the last 15 years? Being so interconnected through family and friends, excommunications produced ripples: ripples produced big waves: waves produced the internet: and whether one would call this movement "good" or "bad"...here we all are today...exes and innes--involved in "this movement". I found that very interesting. And comforting. As we all know God is in control of His church. (And, of course, sheep must get slaughtered in the process of this movement: and hardship fall on all: for their to be new growth). Anyways, fwiw, I enjoyed this speculation: it was simply "fun" for my mind. Please add/change/correct me as you wish. So Clearday, how is it you're coming on so strong now??? (I was about to post a "Help wanted" sign: and suddenly--there you were). With a much stronger voice than before. (Or is that my imagination?) Point #3: My "Agenda". I "see" the non-believers of the "the same" as departing next--either physically or spiritually. Either way, their departure will affect for us: and therefore, I'm "fighting" for the workers to: SOLVE THE PROBLEMS (before it's too late). May I ask what you're fighting for/against? And Charles, please forgive me for taking over your thread. However, this is somewhat in line with your testimony too. (Isn't it? Maybe??) I think everyone is a bit of every category. It's pretty difficult to pigeon hole people accurately. If you met me face to face, your opinion would probably change again in some way. As to what I'm fighting for/against? Here's a few items: 1.The truth and nothing but the truth in all things. No more twisting, coverups. Let's just humble ourselves and acknowledge the truth. 2.Acknowledge our errors past and present and try to make amends for them where possible. 3.Recognition that God is active outside our fellowship. We are not the only ones saved by any means so let's not be so self righteous about it. Let's have a welcoming open fellowship to all believers. 4.Let's have a fellowship where the primary activity is to serve the members. Let the least be the greatest and the greatest the least. Let the elder serve the younger. No more worker idolatry. 5.Let's have a fellowship that is defined by those in and out by divine love. No more beating up on our brethren for their faults but work with them to help them turn from sin. No more verbal beating up on all the "unsaved" Christian believers or anyone for that matter. There's a starting point for you for discussion. I am not so sure what you mean by coming on so strong. Must have been one of my manic days!
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Post by Zorro on Jun 13, 2007 13:02:10 GMT -5
3. Diet Coke: who is a total "realist".??..(bordering so close to heresy we may have to gather a pile of sticks later--)"just another religion?" and to find truth we may have to discard religion altogether?" (I may not know what category you fit into--but I know you're definitely not a traditionalist: and you have certainly described yourself right (so therefore, I said "realist")FWIW, in the context of current social commentary, Diet Coke would be considered a "non-realist". This is an individual who doesn't believe truth/reality can be found. At the other extreme is the "naive realist", someone who just accepts something as true/real without critical thought. In between is the "critical realist" that believes it possible to logically and systematically find "some" truth/reality, though not exhaustively or omnisciently. Carry on.
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Post by Zorro on Jun 13, 2007 13:10:48 GMT -5
As to what I'm fighting for/against?
Here's a few items:
1.The truth and nothing but the truth in all things. No more twisting, coverups. Let's just humble ourselves and acknowledge the truth.
2.Acknowledge our errors past and present and try to make amends for them where possible.
3.Recognition that God is active outside our fellowship. We are not the only ones saved by any means so let's not be so self righteous about it. Let's have a welcoming open fellowship to all believers.
4.Let's have a fellowship where the primary activity is to serve the members. Let the least be the greatest and the greatest the least. Let the elder serve the younger. No more worker idolatry.
5.Let's have a fellowship that is defined by those in and out by divine love. No more beating up on our brethren for their faults but work with them to help them turn from sin. No more verbal beating up on all the "unsaved" Christian believers or anyone for that matter.
There's a starting point for you for discussion.
Tremendous list!!! Without question, before we left, we were on the same "train" with you. I'm wondering how openly you've discussed these types of things with overseers. That's when things went south for me, how about for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 13:56:51 GMT -5
As to what I'm fighting for/against?
Here's a few items:
1.The truth and nothing but the truth in all things. No more twisting, coverups. Let's just humble ourselves and acknowledge the truth.
2.Acknowledge our errors past and present and try to make amends for them where possible.
3.Recognition that God is active outside our fellowship. We are not the only ones saved by any means so let's not be so self righteous about it. Let's have a welcoming open fellowship to all believers.
4.Let's have a fellowship where the primary activity is to serve the members. Let the least be the greatest and the greatest the least. Let the elder serve the younger. No more worker idolatry.
5.Let's have a fellowship that is defined by those in and out by divine love. No more beating up on our brethren for their faults but work with them to help them turn from sin. No more verbal beating up on all the "unsaved" Christian believers or anyone for that matter.
There's a starting point for you for discussion. Tremendous list!!! Without question, before we left, we were on the same "train" with you. I'm wondering how openly you've discussed these types of things with overseers. That's when things went south for me, how about for you? They think I'm contentious but hey, I like the south!
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 13:59:49 GMT -5
Hello Clearday,
I agree with everything you said (including that I couldn't accurately pigeon-hole anyone). Your being active (in trying to actually do something about the situation) is why I classified you as "activist". (Not because I saw you with pickets or disruptive in any negative way).
And diet coke: my posting regarding you lost its smiley. I like you. And, of course, classify you as "one of us". (With an interesting twist to your nature). Which I tend to like.
Hey Zorro!! Welcome Back!!
Just read your response to my posting. (Ah, so the accurate description is "non-realist"? Now, that IS funny...to me...with my off-beat sense of humor).
I found diet coke's description of her/himself (between this thread and another one) interesting. Almost from (and this is not a direct quote) from: "don't really believe anything here" -to where--she/he said "but dispute we have the Sprit--if you dare". A "complete loop-around"--which immediately causes me to like this person!)
Carry on? With what?? My "Thought-of-the-Month" has been used up!
Your turn.
Back to Clearday,
Before your postings of yesterday, I thought there was only Bert, Nathan, and me (as 2x2's) here. (With a few drop-ins otherwise). However, I haven't been here much lately--so maybe I just missed your postings until yesterday. Anyways, good to see ya here (and now, I can go!!!)
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Post by 9y2yaqn on Jun 13, 2007 14:10:14 GMT -5
And Clearday:
"Carry On!" (as Zorro said)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 14:17:26 GMT -5
Hello Clearday, I agree with everything you said (including that I couldn't accurately pigeon-hole anyone). Your being active (in trying to actually do something about the situation) is why I classified you as "activist". (Not because I saw you with pickets or disruptive in any negative way). And diet coke: my posting regarding you lost its smiley. I like you. And, of course, classify you as "one of us". (With an interesting twist to your nature). Which I tend to like. Hey Zorro!! Welcome Back!! Just read your response to my posting. (Ah, so the accurate description is "non-realist"? Now, that IS funny...to me...with my off-beat sense of humor). I found diet coke's description of her/himself (between this thread and another one) interesting. Almost from (and this is not a direct quote) from: "don't really believe anything here" -to where--she/he said "but dispute we have the Sprit--if you dare". A "complete loop-around"--which immediately causes me to like this person!) Carry on? With what?? My "Thought-of-the-Month" has been used up! Your turn. Back to Clearday, Before your postings of yesterday, I thought there was only Bert, Nathan, and me (as 2x2's) here. (With a few drop-ins otherwise). However, I haven't been here much lately--so maybe I just missed your postings until yesterday. Anyways, good to see ya here (and now, I can go!!!) And here I thought you were the new one! Another regular poster who goes to meetings is Brick, so there's another one to analyze for classification and filing!
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 14:21:42 GMT -5
Correction of the day: Christ is the head of the church. (Although if he's God??? Then...my statement would be right. (?)
Thought-of -the-Day:
Perhaps the reason the workers discouraged questions was because they simply didn't have the answers themselves. And COULDN'T answer them. (And maybe, didn't want to admit it???)
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 14:30:21 GMT -5
Clearday,
Good to know! Now I can be completely guilt-free as I desert both of you to enjoy the sun!
And while I'd love to include Brick in my analysis, I'm afraid I must (according to my own rule) exlude him. Only those who posted on THIS thread are entitled to my unasked for: and completely unappreciated comments.
Perhaps next time, he won't be so lucky!
(Okay, I'd given a "thought for the day": questions--for the day: encouragement for the day: and thankfulness for the day" stuff...I think my job (today) is done!!! Thanks to all of you!
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