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Post by anonymous on Jun 19, 2007 15:22:35 GMT -5
sorry, anonymous you like to ask too many questions and demand me to answer but you don't like to answers my questions for you... it seems you like to hide and run after I answered your question. Identify yourself truthfully if you want me to answer your questions next time. I was pretty sure you couln't do it. I'm pretty sure your answer according to your conviction related on this board is "no", but you would dance around that.
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Post by misty on Jun 19, 2007 15:38:38 GMT -5
nathan, is that true?
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Post by There you Go on Jun 19, 2007 18:42:20 GMT -5
I am encouraged that my post has put forth good discussion directed to the issues. One point if I may. The issues of that fellow that I knew; Watched go down hill with his health; Had fellowship with on quite a regular basis to read and discuss Gods Love for him; Observing his chastening and conversion of heart. I watched as he became humbled/Turning to full Trust in the Lord--And then he was taken home out of his broken failing body. Heb:12:7: If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb:12:11: Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. 6: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7: If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?The issue is not IF HE FOUND SALVATION--- But more so WHY WOULD ANY OTHER CHRISTIAN DOUBT?Some say only God knows. Well that very well may be true. But, then we can take that logic to the next step. If only God knows then how can any group including the F&W's make claim that they are right? They really do not know if what they are doing will bring them salvation either. This to me is a failure in accepting the Grace of God.Another point has been echoed more then once. The issue of all the bibles which have dictionaries that discuss the "Trinity", "Incarnation" and "Godhead". If it is wrong then perhaps the F&W's should look for another Bible which does not embrace these concepts? I don't know of any Bibles that don't (embrace these concepts) with the exception of the Koran. I have enjoyed the discussions. Keep thinking. P.S. For Nathan--Know I have not been posting those responses to you. However - I wish you would just stand down on your actions and statements towards them. As you say you have been posting for a long time and know that it will not change. ~~ On P.S. for Nathan... What do you mean by just stand down on your actions and statements toward them..
hmmmmm... Why don't you speak what you know and I do the same. I stand for Truth in Jesus.... when you believe and teach false doctrines I will let you know I hope you do the same to me..... when you believe and teach false doctrines I will let you know I hope you do the same to me. Well there you go. It appears that Nathan believes the guy is teaching false doctrines. Nathan is full of hypocrisy and disrespect towards others. Hey Nathan why don't you change your handle so that your last name shows? What happened to your old Bible?
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Post by 2Nathan9 on Jun 19, 2007 20:31:28 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2007 23:14:21 GMT -5
Here's a few items:
1.The truth and nothing but the truth in all things. No more twisting, coverups. Let's just humble ourselves and acknowledge the truth.
2.Acknowledge our errors past and present and try to make amends for them where possible.
3.Recognition that God is active outside our fellowship. We are not the only ones saved by any means so let's not be so self righteous about it. Let's have a welcoming open fellowship to all believers.
4.Let's have a fellowship where the primary activity is to serve the members. Let the least be the greatest and the greatest the least. Let the elder serve the younger. No more worker idolatry.
5.Let's have a fellowship that is defined by those in and out by divine love. No more beating up on our brethren for their faults but work with them to help them turn from sin. No more verbal beating up on all the "unsaved" Christian believers or anyone for that matter.To clearday: Thank you ever so much for your list. I couldn't agree more with your points, and although I have come to the conclusion that organized religion is just not for me, if I were looking for a church the one laid out in your list would be my pick hands down. I'd be on the train! Despite my own personal experiences and hurts within the 2x2 way, and the occassional bitterness I suffer and succumb to as a result, I really do hope that there can be positive changes because there really are so many good people in it and they deserve a faith that is based on what you have listed above. I admire you very much for sticking with and for standing up for what you believe; as I tried to decide whether or not to leave the truth I really struggled with whether I should stay to try and make a difference. In the end I guess you could maybe say I was selfish, I wanted out, I didn't want to deal with it anymore or try to be strong. I wanted my freedom. I'm very thankful, for the sakes of those still in the fellowship, for people like you who stay and try to make things better. All the best of luck to you in your efforts. trigger, thanks for the affirmative comments. I'm certainly not in favour of "organized" religion either. If people want to organize to accomplish something, that's great. But pure religion cannot be organized, or if it is, the Spirit gets squished out of it. Your post is amazingly honest, it's great that you post here. I wish I had known you when you were professing(maybe I do), as there are sources of support in your views that you may have been able to tap into and perhaps things may have been different. Instead, I wish you all the best your new endeavours, God cannot be contained in a box!
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Post by Freespirit on Jun 20, 2007 5:19:03 GMT -5
Clearday: Thank you for the list. I'm on the train too and it gives me courage when I see others in the boxcar. ;D I wish sometimes I had the right words to heal those who have been hurt. I am still on a journey to allow God to heal me. For me: Why do I stay? Because this is where God has put me for now. Maybe someday it will be different. I have been blessed many, many times and I am content with what God has given me. For the record: in my mind, contentment is not the same as not seeing some problems and issues. In that way, it's a bit like a marriage. About inconsistencies: I think truth (little "t", not the religion) is a multi-faceted diamond--often paradoxical in nature. So, I guess I'm saying that it doesn't bother me if people have different takes on different subjects. If we stay close to God the flavors blend and make spiritual bread that can be a blessing for everyone. When I go to the beach, my ears hear the waves but my toes feel the hot and gritty sand. Same body/different perceptions of the same experience, both are correct even though they are worlds apart. Maybe that's not a good analogy but it's what came to mind. peace to all, freespirit
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2007 6:59:47 GMT -5
freespirit says: Clearday: Thank you for the list. I'm on the train too and it gives me courage when I see others in the boxcar. I wish sometimes I had the right words to heal those who have been hurt. I am still on a journey to allow God to heal me.
CD says: Although I don't have any magical healing powers either, helping others who have been hurt in the fellowship isn't as difficult as I would have thought years ago. Get to know their circumstances, acknowledge their pain, determine the source of the pain, acknowledge the errors that brought it about, show interest in their future. I think it's just a matter of demonstrating you care. Oftentimes people who have been beaten up by the fellowship are people who have had some personal struggle so they appreciate talking with someone who isn't going to jump all over them.
For me: Why do I stay? Because this is where God has put me for now. Maybe someday it will be different. I have been blessed many, many times and I am content with what God has given me. For the record: in my mind, contentment is not the same as not seeing some problems and issues. In that way, it's a bit like a marriage.
I have found substantial blessing too. It has shown up deep within the soul in the form of a sense of spiritual well being that can only come by committing to doing what is right and obeying my conscience/God's voice. It more than makes up for the bumps and bruises.
You are right about contentment. For many of our fellow meeting people, contentment and sleep are somewhat synonymous. Many workers spend a lot of their time singing lullabies to keep people asleep or put them back to sleep, rather than solving the problems and issues. I have seen parents do it too.
About inconsistencies: I think truth (little "t", not the religion) is a multi-faceted diamond--often paradoxical in nature.
So, I guess I'm saying that it doesn't bother me if people have different takes on different subjects. If we stay close to God the flavors blend and make spiritual bread that can be a blessing for everyone.
When I go to the beach, my ears hear the waves but my toes feel the hot and gritty sand. Same body/different perceptions of the same experience, both are correct even though they are worlds apart. Maybe that's not a good analogy but it's what came to mind.
Good analogy. It reminds me of the fable of the blind men who encounter the elephant and all describe the elephant differently because they are exposed to only one part of the huge animal, but they are still describing the same thing. I think God is like that too, we only see a small aspect of God no matter who we are, and we often see different aspects than others. Real truth is certainly one of the most difficult treasures to discover and extract.
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timber
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Post by timber on Jun 20, 2007 7:17:53 GMT -5
I'm sorry Nathan but I don't understand. Why won't you answer anonymous's question? Would your answer be different if you knew who the person was? Thanks.
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Post by 4Nathan9 on Jun 20, 2007 9:41:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry Nathan but I don't understand. Why won't you answer anonymous's question? Would your answer be different if you knew who the person was? Thanks.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 20, 2007 21:20:56 GMT -5
Thanks Zorro,
Maybe #217 v 4 should be clarified.?
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Post by as I c it on Jun 20, 2007 22:25:10 GMT -5
To be honest,
I don't really understand the big deal over whether Jesus is God.
(or God, too).
Are we not elevating him(like a Prince): and honoring Him (as the Son of God)...far above us: and with all authority over us...anyways??? (And knowing that He's on the throne now?)
So aren't we giving him divinity (and power etc) above all...anyways???
How bad of a sin is this?? (If I'm not making him God, in my thinking?)
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Post by to be honest on Jun 20, 2007 22:36:23 GMT -5
so what you're saying is that you want to retain the license to demote Jesus from who is really is to who you want him to be
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Post by as I c it on Jun 20, 2007 23:14:36 GMT -5
to be honest,
No, I'm not.
I'm not trying to demote Him. I'm said "far above us" (which means we're "far below Him". And I'm giving Him all authority (over us and the church). And a special relationship with God/Son we don't have.
A "Royal" one (like King/Prince/Son) which we don't have.
I haven't been raised to believe Jesus is God. I've been raised (and have thought) as stated above). And as what is taught and believed in my area.
Now, I'm looking at the issue. And wondering about it. And wondering what will happen, (salvation wise) if I stick to what those in our area believe.
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Post by I dont get it on Jun 20, 2007 23:48:07 GMT -5
"if I stick to what those in our area believe"
No disrespect meant, I just don't understand why anyone would play follow the leader in this group - why not have a relationship with God and read the Bible as to what it really says with the 2x2 glasses off. Be your own person - a child of God.
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Post by My Understanding on Jun 20, 2007 23:51:35 GMT -5
I don't really understand the big deal over whether Jesus is God. From what I have read and heard, most of those that believe Jesus was God (in the flesh) on earth are grace believers. They believe they can do nothing but trust in God and the blood of jesus for their salvation, justification, and sanctification. Those that believe Jesus was not God are proclaimers of their flesh and deniers of grace. They like to say "see what we do"...."we are closer to the NT church"...."we are more devout"...."we try harder in not sinning". And they claim, just as maysayers did in Paul's day, that grace believers use grace as an allowance (or license) to sin. Paul rejected such a contention and yet it still comes. So, there seems to be a Jesus that is a man that promotes earning salvation and a Jesus that instills salvation.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 21, 2007 0:13:38 GMT -5
My understanding,
Thank you for your response.
Only now...I'm between two ways of believing/thinking...
I believe in the one that is salvation. And His righteousness (not mine).
(In fact...I don't want mine!!!)
I guess, when it comes to God: Jesus: Holy Spirit: I think hierarchy. And what they're saying is "equality"?
Jesus (to me) is divinity. He finished what God gave Him to do, and sat down (on the throne).
My main concern is: What happens if I don't think of him as God?
And just have God (as God): Jesus (as Jesus): and the Holy Spirit (as the Holy Spirit)?
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Post by Why Then on Jun 21, 2007 8:14:12 GMT -5
My understanding, Thank you for your response. Only now...I'm between two ways of believing/thinking... I believe in the one that is salvation. And His righteousness (not mine). (In fact...I don't want mine!!!) I guess, when it comes to God: Jesus: Holy Spirit: I think hierarchy. And what they're saying is "equality"? Jesus (to me) is divinity. He finished what God gave Him to do, and sat down (on the throne). My main concern is: What happens if I don't think of him as God? And just have God (as God): Jesus (as Jesus): and the Holy Spirit (as the Holy Spirit)? Is there this BenedictionMt:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Why the three?
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Post by Asked Again on Sept 26, 2007 8:06:59 GMT -5
Why don,t you go-----
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 26, 2007 14:03:40 GMT -5
Anyone know what has become of the person who started this thread--Chas. Storck? My edress for him doesn't work. He's not registered so I can't PM him.
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Sept 27, 2007 12:46:08 GMT -5
[So, there seems to be a Jesus that is a man that promotes earning salvation and a Jesus that instills salvation.]
This is why it is important for any christian to understand their assurance of Salvation. Jesus Christ never said salvation is earned. Salvation is a gift. Through the Grace of God. I dont see anywhere where Jesus 'instills' it.
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skippy
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Post by skippy on Sept 29, 2007 22:55:27 GMT -5
This is a very interesting thread and one that is taking a real part in my meeting in Minnesota. A few weeks ago my husband and I had dinner with our elder and his wife over the very topic of Jesus being divine and Jesus being God the son. Both the elder and his wife had had a clear revelation from God that Jesus is 100% human. They didn't bring up any scripturally thoughts on this just a clear revelation.
We were asked if we would modify what we say in meeting so that we wouldn't confuse the meeting, hurt people or cause schisms. Both of us have searched scripture, talked to Zorro, talked for hours to John Starkweather the head worker who was taken out over this topic after 40 year sin the work, talked for hours to a Minnesota worker who was close to this issue years ago, asked many of the friends here how they view the issue, etc. We both believe that Jesus had a divine nature that was housed in a human body. This is causing a lot of friction in our meeting because we are viewed as rebelling against the teachings of the workers.
I can't really do anything about what the workers think but I wish they would decide what they believe. Many of the friends here in Minnesota that I have asked about this believe that Jesus and God were one, that Emmanuel means "God among us." And that it means it literally that God walked among us in a human body and his name was Jesus.
People are scared to say what they believe. Although we are seen as being the cause of this problem in our meeting, it actually seems as though there are just so many, many verses that would lead a person to read that Jesus was divine and a lot of the friends really do read that there's no way around this one. Many of the workers just can't allow Jesus to be God the Son, our divine savior. I don't get it.
I have gone round and round with a very smart, very well-read brother worker and I still really don't get it. I can't believe that this causes so many problems and that people are excommunicated for it. In my mind based on what is written, it all seems so obvious.
The good part of this is that I have asked almost everyone I work with, my family, friends, etc. who they believe Jesus was/is. Most believe that he was a human being in which the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily, meaning he was divine in his nature. The workers and some of the friends are about the only people I have ever met who don't see Jesus as being divine in his nature. It is just amazing though the conversations that I have had with colleagues over this. Maybe in the end, that has been far more valuable that agreeing with the workers.
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tulip2
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Post by tulip2 on Sept 30, 2007 0:09:27 GMT -5
I can't really do anything about what the workers think but I wish they would decide what they believe. Many of the friends here in Minnesota that I have asked about this believe that Jesus and God were one, that Emmanuel means "God among us." And that it means it literally that God walked among us in a human body and his name was Jesus. People are scared to say what they believe. Although we are seen as being the cause of this problem in our meeting, it actually seems as though there are just so many, many verses that would lead a person to read that Jesus was divine and a lot of the friends really do read that there's no way around this one. Many of the workers just can't allow Jesus to be God the Son, our divine savior. I don't get it. I have gone round and round with a very smart, very well-read brother worker and I still really don't get it. I can't believe that this causes so many problems and that people are excommunicated for it. In my mind based on what is written, it all seems so obvious. It is obvious skippy and you stick to your guns. Don't let anybody, elder or worker, try to tell you that knowing who Jesus is, really knowing him, is not important. To truly BELIEVE in someone you gotta know more than a bit about them. If Jesus was just a man (not divine), say even a 100% perfect man, could you totally absolutely trust him for something as important as your salvation when he says "he who believes in Me has everlasting life"? I know that's not sufficient for me to put my total trust in. But Jesus being divine makes a world of difference. God is faithful, totally trustworthy. And Jesus (Son of God) and the Father are one, the same character, totally trustworthy. It's important for us in our walk of faith, to know who Jesus is and that we can safely trust him (he is also omnipotent, which helps.. so your faith is not just in a man but in the divine God). That's pretty important! Peter had a revelation of who Jesus is (the Christ, the Son of the living God): Matthew 16:15-17, He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. But there's an even higher revelation (again it can only come to us by revelation from the Father.. you won't convince anybody who doesn't want to see this). Thomas had the highest revelation that we humans can have, of who Jesus is (My Lord and my God!) John 20:28-29, And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Nice how Jesus commended Thomas and all who see the same as he did!
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Post by Brick on Sept 30, 2007 8:08:05 GMT -5
Eternal damnation through ignorance? I don't get it. Is it really that important to salvation to believe that Jesus was God? Why is it that the writers of the Bible never came out and tell us this? Why is it that Jesus is called the Son of God numerous times? What is the purpose of the trinity? If Jesus is God and God is a spirit, where did the three come from? Aren't they just one? Here is my take on it:
The Bible says "Son of God" 47 times, but never says Jesus is God. Jesus said to Philip, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?" [John 14:9] It seems to me that Jesus was saying that he was in complete unity of mind, word, and deed with the father. John begins his gospel trying to tell us who Jesus was, but even so, it is not completely clear. He says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." and then, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." Using simple mathematical substitutions, we can surmise that if the Word was God and the word was made flesh, then it also means that God was made flesh. Why didn't John just come out and say it? Or Paul? I don't know. I don't know if Jesus was God or not, but the scripture says that he was the image of God, in perfect unity of mind and spirit. I know that when I look in a mirror, I am not seeing myself, but just an image of myself. But I also believe that it is a perfect reflection of what I look like. That is what I believe of Jesus, if he was not God on earth, it doesn't matter because his mind and will were completely God's. I don't think it matters whether we believe that Jesus is God or not, but only that we believe on him. Some have argued that it is wrong of me to say it doesn't matter, but consider the following analogy: You are driving your car on a rainy night when you have a flat tire. You are in the middle of nowhere and no help is in sight. Sitting in your car, wondering what to do, you see headlights approach. A dark figure gets out of the vehicle and approaches. He looks at your flat tire and yells through your window to unlatch your trunk (boot).You do. He repairs your flat tire, and yells for you to have a safe trip, gets in his car and leaves. You don't have a clue who he is, but you know he saved you. You know that he had the spirit of a servant, self sacrificing and kind. Isn't that enough? Do we need his shoe size or a a DNA sample to know exactly who this person was? Your car runs just fine even though you don't know his name, and you reach your destination safely. Should you just sit there in the rain and darkness just because you don't know the identity of your savior? Refuse to accept that your vehicle is now in good working order just because you didn't get a glimpse of the face of the person who saved you?
You sit there and think about it. I've got places to go down a long, dark, rainy road. I'm glad I can travel safely, regardless of who my savior is.
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Post by Anology Flawed on Sept 30, 2007 8:49:47 GMT -5
The problem is that you painted a picture of salvation related to material things... The Salvation God brings is spiritual, not material.
So then this person: :
In the dark who you really can't see fixes things to allow you to go on to your destination. How do you know that at the end of the trip you may be asked to pay a price for that help? You really don't know who that one is in the dark, do you. I would much rather have the lights on and see clearly who I am trusting. The guy in the dark tells you to trust him too.
The question is "God in the Flesh"? Really. Does that only apply to Jesus and not matter if Jesus is in fact the third person of the Godhead?
Was Jesus or "God the Son" about the fathers business in the Old Testament? Who created? God? or Jesus? What is meant by the "GOD HEAD"?
Yes I believe it really matters since Jesus is asking us to Trust and believe on HIM. Who he really is?
Isa:25:9: And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
AND
Col. 1
15: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18: And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19: For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; 20: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
So then we see that Jesus is Eternal with the Father. If we have one God then Jesus is part of the Father. Jesus became flesh for the WORD and had two names. One Emmanuel Which was of God and one Jesus which is for man. It begs the question, Who was Jesus before the Incarnation? Hence the mystery. But know this, you must know HE IS and Know also WHO HE IS to have belief.
1Tm:3:16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
I would prefer to put my faith in one who has show me the light and not one who walks in the dark telling me they are light.
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Post by Brick on Sept 30, 2007 9:12:35 GMT -5
But back to my original question: Eternal damnation through ignorance? If you don't know or can't accept this fact, does it mean you are damned? I'm cursed because I'm stupid? Because I don't believe something that the Bible does not say?
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Post by I guess So on Sept 30, 2007 10:49:09 GMT -5
But back to my original question: Eternal damnation through ignorance? If you don't know or can't accept this fact, does it mean you are damned? I'm cursed because I'm stupid? Because I don't believe something that the Bible does not say? Yea I guess so Because you do know the Real JESUS Jn:10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me--Time will tell Let the reader decide
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Post by AW on Sept 30, 2007 11:07:31 GMT -5
The person who started this thread is just a nasty X fallen away without the right spirit. Evil apostate. You people should know that. The workers and many of the friends diss this person and I have listened. Why would you even pay attention to an evil ex?
N
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Post by for on Sept 30, 2007 12:07:13 GMT -5
The person who started this thread is just a nasty X fallen away without the right spirit. Evil apostate. You people should know that. The workers and many of the friends diss this person and I have listened. Why would you even pay attention to an evil ex? N For the same reason we pay attention to evil 2x2s. DUH!
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