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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 30, 2007 15:53:37 GMT -5
Yes, Brick, some days I feel cursed 'cause I'm stupid. ;D (Enjoying the rest of the debate...maybe comment later)
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tulip2
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Post by tulip2 on Sept 30, 2007 17:15:05 GMT -5
But back to my original question: Eternal damnation through ignorance? If you don't know or can't accept this fact, does it mean you are damned? I'm cursed because I'm stupid? Because I don't believe something that the Bible does not say? Brick, I don't believe so. My bible doesn't tell me anywhere that we're goin to be judged on our understanding, if we were we would all fail. There are many spiritual truths that the bible doesn't spell out clearly, things Paul called mysteries. They are revealed by God and then we see that the glimpses in scripture all make sense. Who Jesus is, is important in the sense that that is who we put our faith for eternal salvation in. Whatever God reveals to us, is what is important for us. And that we respond with all the love in our hearts. Thomas actually saw, declared at last, that Jesus was his Lord and God (John 20:28). And Jesus commended him for that.
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Post by Oh on Sept 30, 2007 17:33:12 GMT -5
So then all of those friends or workers who were shunned out of the F&W's because they spoke and believed in the Trinity were put out wrongly?
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Post by Bluenoser on Sept 30, 2007 17:43:53 GMT -5
So then all of those friends or workers who were shunned out of the F&W's because they spoke and believed in the Trinity were put out wrongly? What does "shunned out of the f&W" mean?? Are you saying that people actually had to leave because they believed that Jesus was more than just a man? Who do the workers teach that Jesus is???
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skippy
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Post by skippy on Sept 30, 2007 21:59:55 GMT -5
Ummmmm....It depend a lot on who the worker is.
Brick I agree with you. I am not sure it matters who people think he is if they are looking at him as the author and finisher of their faith, the the hope of their salvation, the Christ. Whether he is seen by individuals as 100% human or 100% divine, does it actually matter for their salvation? I haven't figured out yet that it would make any difference.
The part that is so weird for me though is that some people just go absolutely wacky over the mention of him being divine. I am fine with them believing he is only a human as long as I am free to believe he is the divine spirit of God incarnate. When people start getting thrown out and persecuted for seeing him as equal to God, that's when my eyebrows go way up.
Live and let live and allow Jesus to be the Savior of our souls whether we see him as only another human or as part of the trinity.
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Post by Thats on Oct 1, 2007 11:38:36 GMT -5
So then all of those friends or workers who were shunned out of the F&W's because they spoke and believed in the Trinity were put out wrongly? What does "shunned out of the f&W" mean?? Are you saying that people actually had to leave because they believed that Jesus was more than just a man? Who do the workers teach that Jesus is??? Thats the million dollar question. Go ask them who Emmanuel is? I hear tell they do not teach the incarnation. What do they teach then? Here in is part of the problem as noted by previous posts. No consistency with belief and teaching in this area. FWIW Yes people have been pushed out of the F&W's for stating that they believe Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity and as such is God also.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 1, 2007 11:57:28 GMT -5
I find "just a man" to be demeaning. Is there no middle ground between that and "God Himself"? How about "Son of God"?
We all know there are verses that "prove" Jesus is God. We all know that there are probably ten times as many verses that hint (but do not say outright) that he is not. As if the authors had no inkling that he would someday be considered God, and never thought to confirm or deny the idea.
I'm sure I've said this here several times before, but...when do we admit the obvious: The N.T. writers themselves had differing opinions, and we must settle this argument without using the Bible.
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Post by Gene on Oct 1, 2007 12:13:20 GMT -5
Ummmmm....It depend a lot on who the worker is. Brick I agree with you. I am not sure it matters who people think he is if they are looking at him as the author and finisher of their faith, the the hope of their salvation, the Christ. Whether he is seen by individuals as 100% human or 100% divine, does it actually matter for their salvation? I haven't figured out yet that it would make any difference. The part that is so weird for me though is that some people just go absolutely wacky over the mention of him being divine. I am fine with them believing he is only a human as long as I am free to believe he is the divine spirit of God incarnate. When people start getting thrown out and persecuted for seeing him as equal to God, that's when my eyebrows go way up. Live and let live and allow Jesus to be the Savior of our souls whether we see him as only another human or as part of the trinity. Precisely. I agree that it is not a big deal... BUT, the f&w leadership has CERTAINLY made it a big deal -- witness the excommunications of those who believe that Jesus was divine; i.e., without sin in deed, thought, and nature -- thus incapable of sinning. Zorro posted something quite nice about this some time ago -- along the lines that perhaps the reason so many senior workers go bananas over this is that it cuts to the very foundation of the works vs grace dichotomy. WORKS: If Jesus was just a man who through prayer and fasting and selfdenial overcame the natural sinful man, well, then, so can WE! And the only reason we don't is that we are not trying hard enough. If we would try harder, we too could be perfect as he was. GRACE: If, on the other hand, by nature he was different from us (i.e., without the root of sin), then he must have had an unfair advantage. We could never be like him, they say. What was the point of him being an example, they say, if what he was is impossible for us to ever achieve? Of course, that's where grace comes into play... Zorro, help me out here?
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Post by Second Hand Info on Oct 5, 2007 12:20:27 GMT -5
Anyone know what has become of the person who started this thread--Chas. Storck? My edress for him doesn't work. He's not registered so I can't PM him. I hear that he has had Hodgkin's Lymphoma for some time but never told anyone. From what I knew it is a direct result of large exposures to Agent Orange when he was in VN. I remember gossip about him not going to meetings for a long time and seems they (F&W) were all wrong. I remember also at a potluck union meeting from about three years ago some people who worked at Dow made fun of him by insinuating that he was not sick for AO. Now we also know the truth about that issue don't we. VA linkage verified and approved. I believe DJ also has similar problems from AO. I hear that he is addressing his needs in this area and does not participate very much in the 2 times X wars anymore and does not want to be bothered. He knows God and God has him in HIS hands. From what I know of him and the times we have talked he alway presented to me a most humble, loving and Christ indwelt spirit. Not in His Area but Close Just Second Hand Info about his illness-I do not know him well enough to ask him outright.
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Post by well second and on Oct 5, 2007 22:06:45 GMT -5
Why did you post this if it is second hand?
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 6, 2007 20:32:46 GMT -5
Thanks so much for letting me know that "Second Hand." I have really been wondering what became of Chas. We were communicating frequently; he was making trips to the UK to be with his daughter; did some research for me, etc. and all at once--NOTHING. His edress didn't work, etc. He never mentioned his health. I sure do hope he finds some relief for his physical ailments.
Cherie
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Post by For Dennis J on Oct 10, 2007 9:10:34 GMT -5
Anyone know what has become of the person who started this thread--Chas. Storck? My edress for him doesn't work. He's not registered so I can't PM him. I hear that he has had Hodgkin's Lymphoma for some time but never told anyone. From what I knew it is a direct result of large exposures to Agent Orange when he was in VN. I remember gossip about him not going to meetings for a long time and seems they (F&W) were all wrong. I remember also at a potluck union meeting from about three years ago some people who worked at Dow made fun of him by insinuating that he was not sick for AO. Now we also know the truth about that issue don't we. VA linkage verified and approved. I believe DJ also has similar problems from AO. I hear that he is addressing his needs in this area and does not participate very much in the 2 times X wars anymore and does not want to be bothered. He knows God and God has him in HIS hands. From what I know of him and the times we have talked he alway presented to me a most humble, loving and Christ indwelt spirit. Not in His Area but Close Just Second Hand Info about his illness-I do not know him well enough to ask him outright. Dennis you mentioned you were a Medic in Nam. What do you know about this stuff? I looked up the VA AO links and see that Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma is recognized as a result of exposure to AO. Does this mean that Charles is dying? I missed his posts and had some good PM's with him when he was registerd. Just concerned. Please fill us in if this above post could be true.
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would like to know more
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Post by would like to know more on Oct 11, 2007 8:35:52 GMT -5
Bump
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Post by Not Dennis J But on Oct 11, 2007 9:38:16 GMT -5
I hear that he has had Hodgkin's Lymphoma for some time but never told anyone. From what I knew it is a direct result of large exposures to Agent Orange when he was in VN. I remember gossip about him not going to meetings for a long time and seems they (F&W) were all wrong. I remember also at a potluck union meeting from about three years ago some people who worked at Dow made fun of him by insinuating that he was not sick for AO. Now we also know the truth about that issue don't we. VA linkage verified and approved. I believe DJ also has similar problems from AO. I hear that he is addressing his needs in this area and does not participate very much in the 2 times X wars anymore and does not want to be bothered. He knows God and God has him in HIS hands. From what I know of him and the times we have talked he alway presented to me a most humble, loving and Christ indwelt spirit. Not in His Area but Close Just Second Hand Info about his illness-I do not know him well enough to ask him outright. Dennis you mentioned you were a Medic in Nam. What do you know about this stuff? I looked up the VA AO links and see that Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma is recognized as a result of exposure to AO. Does this mean that Charles is dying? I missed his posts and had some good PM's with him when he was registerd. Just concerned. Please fill us in if this above post could be true. News roundup
Link found between Agent Orange and chronic lymphocytic leukaemia
Charles Marwick Washington, DC
Reviewing recently published scientific evidence, a committee of the US Institute of Medicine has concluded that a positive association exists between exposures to herbicides used as defoliants from 1962 to 1971during the Vietnam war and the risk of developing chronic lymphocytic leukaemia.
The report is the fourth in a series of reviews that the institute has conducted at Congress�s request since 1996 of the health effects of these defoliants. Earlier reports had linked Hodgkin�s disease and non-Hodgkin�s lymphoma with exposure to these defoliants. Chronic lymphocytic leukaemia shares many traits with these disorders.
As both chronic lymphocytic leukaemia and lymphomas originate from malignant B cells and the former can transform into Richter�s syndrome�a particularly aggressive form of non-Hodgkin�s lymphoma�the committee wondered whether chronic lymphocytic leukaemia should be considered separately from other forms of leukaemia.
Irva Hertz-Picciotto of the School of Public Health, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and chairwoman of the committee, said: "We looked into the matter, and our reassessment indicates that CLL [chronic lymphocytic leukaemia] is indeed a special case. The data are sufficient to support a link between herbicide exposure and this type of cancer."
The committee�s assessment is based on evidence from six studies that looked at cancer rates and other health effects among agricultural workers and farm community residents exposed to herbicides. The panel found that the incidence of chronic lymphocytic leukaemia was raised in those whose occupations involved handling of or exposure to the types of herbicides that were used during the Vietnam War.
"There is a positive association between herbicides and the outcome in which chance, bias and confounding could be ruled out with reasonable confidence," the committee wrote.
The principal defoliant used by the US military forces in Vietnam was a mixture of 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D), 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5,-T), and one form of dioxin, TCDD (2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin), present as contaminant. The defoliant is popularly known as Agent Orange, from the identifying colour of the drums in which it was stored.
The committee conclusions are important to those who served in Vietnam as, if they develop chronic lymphocytic leukaemia, they will be eligible for disability benefits. According to the US Veterans Administration, which provides these benefits, there are about 500 new cases annually. If this guy has this stuff he is in deep dodo. Not a good outlook.
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Post by REVELATION 101 on Oct 11, 2007 14:18:45 GMT -5
But back to my original question: Eternal damnation through ignorance? If you don't know or can't accept this fact, does it mean you are damned? I'm cursed because I'm stupid? Because I don't believe something that the Bible does not say? I believe: It is a revelation (that is what Jesus said to Thomas). It is God's way that things would be revealed individually, is it not. I believe: Revelation is part of the 'believing' in John 3:16 : that whoever believes in him......... I am interested to hear if others see it this way.
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Post by What does on Oct 11, 2007 20:50:37 GMT -5
But back to my original question: Eternal damnation through ignorance? If you don't know or can't accept this fact, does it mean you are damned? I'm cursed because I'm stupid? Because I don't believe something that the Bible does not say? I believe: It is a revelation (that is what Jesus said to Thomas). It is God's way that things would be revealed individually, is it not. I believe: Revelation is part of the 'believing' in John 3:16 : that whoever believes in him......... I am interested to hear if others see it this way. have to do with anything?
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Post by Ok I get it on Oct 11, 2007 20:52:03 GMT -5
This guy is sick because he stopped going to meetings
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Post by eyedeetentee on Oct 12, 2007 0:08:24 GMT -5
Try reading back through the pages. You will find that there was conversation before someone asked about CS. Read that conversation, then Brick's statement and the reply may make sense to you . . . . and may not.
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Post by I Believe on Oct 13, 2007 9:20:37 GMT -5
Try reading back through the pages. You will find that there was conversation before someone asked about CS. Read that conversation, then Brick's statement and the reply may make sense to you . . . . and may not. The comment was with respect to some trying to find out of this person is really seriously sick. I think they were trying to get Dennis to input. In any case I wonder if anyone actually cares. As to the previous conversation I really think one should go back to page one and read what started this thread. Seems the thread was hijacked at multiple levels. This is par for this forum--If you don't like the topic presented quick switch gears to get off topic. Just passing through
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 13, 2007 9:40:38 GMT -5
I'm all for threads sticking to the subject, and I object to people hi-jacking my threads!
I apologize for taking space on this thread, but I also very much want to get in touch with the originator of this thread, Charles Storck.
So I will ask my question and leave the thread to get back to its subject. If anyone can give me information so that I could get in contact with Charles, I would appreciate it. I only know that he lived in a northern USA state. And that he has a dtr who lives in the London UK area. Any additional information would be helpful so I could track him down. My purpose? I am concerned about him--and only want to show that I care; that he has friends, etc. Nothing more. He has been very kind and helpful to me in the past.
I can be PM'd or emailed at: truth@earthlink.net
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Post by Nathan said on Oct 14, 2007 8:09:28 GMT -5
Pages: 1 2 Author Topic: John 21:25 (Read 311 times) NB to Rob O Guest John 21:25 « Thread started on: Mar 2nd, 2005, 12:34am » Rob O. thanks for bringing up this verse again. Tell me what you are trying to say about this verse again? I will try my best to answer this time. Logged Rob Oxenbridge Royal Member
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Gender: Male Posts: 734 Re: John 21:25 « Reply #1 on: Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:21am » (John 20:30-31, ESV)
1. Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
2. but these (signs) are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God,
3. and that by believing you may have life in his name.
It is self-explanatory.
« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:24am by Rob Oxenbridge » Logged I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. - Jude 3b
NB to Rob O Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #2 on: Mar 2nd, 2005, 02:55am » It is getting late here in USA. When I get back from work tomorrow I will try to my best to share with you my understanding on John 21:25. Logged Elaine Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #3 on: Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:35pm » Just hoping you haven't missed this important thread Nate, in amongst all the others.
I'm interested in your answer too. Logged NB to Elaine Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #4 on: Mar 3rd, 2005, 10:32pm » on Mar 3rd, 2005, 3:35pm, Guest-Elaine wrote: Just hoping you haven't missed this important thread Nate, in amongst all the others.
I'm interested in your answer too.
I wrote to Rob O. on another thread where I mentioned to him I will answer his verses John 20: 30,31 on monday (USA) my day off. This way I can he and I can continue our discussion without little interuption. Thanks, for being interested. I'd like to know what you have to say about my understanding on these two verses. Logged Elaine Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #5 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 02:03am » Sorry Nate.
Not wanting to hassel you, but saw you said "tomorrow" and the threads move so quickly these days, even I can't keep up with them all! Logged Elaine Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #6 on: Mar 7th, 2005, 3:43pm » Nate,
I guess it's now Monday with you
Logged NB to Elaine Guest Re: John 21:25 « Reply #7 on: Mar 7th, 2005, 4:46pm » on Mar 7th, 2005, 3:43pm, Guest-Elaine wrote: Nate,
I guess it's now Monday with you
I knew either you or Rob O. going to bring this up today! This is what I have found about (John 20:30,31).
The Four Gsopels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were addressed or written to certain churches, or individual believers in Christ or Already born again Christians.
~~ Matthew's Gospel original, may have been made for the Church at Jerusalem.
~~ Mark's Gospel may have intended for the Church or believers in Rome.
~~ Luke wrote his Gospel for an individual named Theophilus, a high official in the Roman government/
~~~~ John's Gospel is thought to have been intended originally for the church in Ephesus. While God inspired these men to write exactly what He wanted them to write, for the use of ALL mankind of all generations, yet they "Themselves" must have had in mind the background of their immediate readers; which may have influenced their choice and material.
Notes found at Haley's Bible Handbook.
The gospel of John is usually assigned to about A.D. 90. For a number of years Jerusalem seems to be his chief residence. According to well-established tradition, his later years were spent at Ephesus. At Ephesus he lived to great age, and wrote this Gospel (John), three epistles and the book Revelation.
The purpose and emphases: John wrote to the "BELIEVERS" or Born again Christians in (John 20:30,31) These are written that you may believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and that by "Believing" you may have life in His name."
John may have the Christians Greek readers or believers mainly in mind, some of whom were being exposed to heretical influence, Deity of Christ, Christ didn't come in the flesh. It is possible to understand "May believe" in the sense of "May continue to believe"... in which case the purpose would be to build up believers as well as to win new converts.
A form of Gnosticism which was disrupting the Churches in John's day denied the Incarnation, that God in Christ actually become flesh, and maintained that Christ was a Phantom, a Man in appearance only.
Throughout 3 of this epistles and the Gospel of John it seems that he must have these believers who became "Heretics" in their teachings and minds. Logged
Nathan Said:
A form of Gnosticism which was disrupting the Churches in John's day denied the Incarnation, that God in Christ actually become flesh, and maintained that Christ was a Phantom, a Man in appearance only.
The start of the thread told of Workers telling that they do not teach the incarnation;
Hummm What do they teach?
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