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Post by diet coke on Jun 13, 2007 14:49:43 GMT -5
it puzzles me why my perspective puzzles others. Zorro even goes to far as to say I believe in nothing, and don't believe we can ever know truth. Actually, I just don't think we're there yet, after ten thousand years or so of trying to find God. The Hebrews helped, I think...I'm not totally sure...they had some wacky ideas, too. Here are some things I believe:
1. I am pretty much convinced we have a creator or perhaps creators, from my scientific studies. Let's call him God the Father. 2. I believe in the spirit, because I can feel it & share it. I have no idea what it is or how to describe it in physical terms. 3. I believe that the man Jesus was so filled with the spirit that the title "Son of God" is quite descriptive. Who he really is/was we can only surmise...and we might even be right.
So, we have Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But we do seem to take a huge jump and assume these three are somehow related. On these premises, we've built a lot of religions with a lot of different understandings.
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Post by Zorro unplugged on Jun 13, 2007 15:06:27 GMT -5
Zorro even goes to far as to say I believe in nothing, and don't believe we can ever know truth.
You told me before on the other board that objective truth can't be found. It's no big deal to me, the point is that when people understand another's perspective, usually that's helpful in communication, which obviously is hard in a medium like this. Reread all the posts and you'll find that I've never criticized your position, but only sought to understand it. I apologize if I've fallen short in that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 15:30:19 GMT -5
it puzzles me why my perspective puzzles others. Zorro even goes to far as to say I believe in nothing, and don't believe we can ever know truth. Actually, I just don't think we're there yet, after ten thousand years or so of trying to find God. The Hebrews helped, I think...I'm not totally sure...they had some wacky ideas, too. Here are some things I believe: 1. I am pretty much convinced we have a creator or perhaps creators, from my scientific studies. Let's call him God the Father. 2. I believe in the spirit, because I can feel it & share it. I have no idea what it is or how to describe it in physical terms. 3. I believe that the man Jesus was so filled with the spirit that the title "Son of God" is quite descriptive. Who he really is/was we can only surmise...and we might even be right. So, we have Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But we do seem to take a huge jump and assume these three are somehow related. On these premises, we've built a lot of religions with a lot of different understandings. You sound pretty realistic to me, practical too. I have discovered that truth is one of the most difficult things in the world to uncover and grasp. It eludes us, gets hidden, gets twisted, and is often invisible to us even when it is staring right at us. If we don't constantly seek truth, we'll lose what little we have of it.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 13, 2007 15:36:30 GMT -5
Diet coke,
I'm more "amused" in a sense, by your perspective than puzzled by it. (You don't mean to be funny perhaps, but you make me smile--because I like interesting people--and your viewpoint is different enough...from the usual beliefs found in "our group"--that it interests me).
If you were going to place yourself in "a group", which one would you say was closest to your way of thinking/believing: Nathan's group: or Clearday's?
I didn't find you fit smoothly into either. And your first statement (again) made me laugh. (Don't worry about my laughing: it's a laugh of delight/surprise--because, like I've said: I like you.)
Most of us believe there's a creator (God) because the Bible tells us so. And nature/life/history/common sense/etc. confirms the truth of the Bible for us. But you are only "pretty much convinced" of....what is "pretty much" an important part of our belief system (that there IS a God).
You believe in the spirit, but you have no idea what it is. (Most of us believe the Spirit is the Holy Spirit--which is God's spirit, in us)
The man Jesus was (according to some) God himself, in the human form of a man who was born of a virgin (fulfilling scripture). Others believe he was the Son of God. And, of course, both believe that he was the Saviour.
Please don't be offended by my statements. What I really mean (and what I'm really saying with all that I've said is: ) "You're not boring!!!" (And I hate being bored...so that means I really like you!! Okay???)
Are you, perhaps, a new Christian? (If so, don't worry about it. And if you're not, don't worry about it either). We all have to work our understanding out: and I'm still trying to do that myself)
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Post by diet coke on Jun 13, 2007 15:37:21 GMT -5
[quote author=Zorro unplugged board=general thread=1181661978 post=1181765187 You told me before on the other board that objective truth can't be found. It's no big deal to me, the point is that when people understand another's perspective, usually that's helpful in communication, which obviously is hard in a medium like this. Reread all the posts and you'll find that I've never criticized your position, but only sought to understand it. I apologize if I've fallen short in that.[/quote]
Oh, no apology necessary; I love our debates. What I said (or hope I said) over and over is that we aren't there YET. We haven't found objective truth YET. We're all trying, except for those who have given up and want to preach about how they have all the answers already.
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Post by In the Cross Hairs on Jun 13, 2007 15:50:28 GMT -5
The workers visited me in short time. The rebuke was clear.
My Testimony was not Edifying. "Surely I can't believe that one could have salvation in another Church."
I spoke on these issue before and others had complained. Probably true. I have said in testimony that we (The F&W) have no claim on the Gifts of God. I have also shared with others who ask of me what I thought about the exclusiveness of the F&W. I told them the same as I tell others. It is the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost who sets our song. Nothing else can destroy that if one is regenerated. We must not put ourselves in higher esteem than others for it is all according to Gods will.
Well my rebuke included
I was unwilling because I did not see it their way. I was not in the right spirit because I did not agree with them to be silent on these matters To speak these things is not edifying. Well you know They said, "It is there responsibility to keep things right for their Church." Well that last is very true.
Addition--I was asked what the Church is. I told them and in doing so mentioned Jesus God incarnate and they said they do not teach that. I asked Who is Emmanuel? There was no answer. So let me clarify why I stopped going to meetings.
1. To commit blasphemy is: (As taken out of my Cambridge KJV Bible)
Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost' is a sin for which there is not forgiveness. The context shows that this sin consists in willfully regarding as evil and the work of the devil something which is plainly good and the work of the Spirit of God. A person who does this is in a state of will(.AI rebellion against the Divine Spirit, the only Power capable of reforming and sanctifying them. That person's forgiveness is therefore a moral impossibility.
I could not willfully deny that which I have seen. To do that could be my eternal death. It is better to error on the side of acceptance rather than to error in rejection thereby damning yourself
2. Incarnation is also found in my KJV bible Dictionary. It is found in the section under "GOD". It says:
The fuller knowledge of God which has come to us through the Incarnation and the gift of the Spirit has enabled the Christian Church to see that there is within the Godhead a distinction of "Person". The paragraphs after that speak and explain the Trinity
1 Tim 3
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
What does Matthew teach:
Matthew 1
23: Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
I believe these verses are very telling. Johns Gospel also speaks of this:
John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The fact is that God came for us in the flesh. There would be no such thing as INCARNATION if this were not true.
Why do not the workers teach this?
Lets add some more; Isaiah 45
21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Very compelling if you study a little deeper.
So then if they (The workers) do not teach the Incarnation, What do they teach? They would not answer this question.
The fellowship in their teaching want people to deny the HOLY SPIRIT and the Fullness of who Jesus is by default. The WI issue is nothing compared to these issues. Some say it is not that way in their area. Well until there is consensus across the board in the fellowship (of just what they believe in these areas) then there will be division. It must be clear as to the beliefs in these two areas. Either you believe them (F&W) or the word of GOD according to the Bible.
I stand for God and my Lord Jesus.
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Post by diet coke on Jun 13, 2007 15:51:05 GMT -5
Diet coke, I'm more "amused" in a sense, by your perspective than puzzled by it. (You don't mean to be funny perhaps, but you make me smile--because I like interesting people--and your viewpoint is different enough...from the usual beliefs found in "our group"--that it interests me). If you were going to place yourself in "a group", which one would you say was closest to your way of thinking/believing: Nathan's group: or Clearday's? I didn't find you fit smoothly into either. And your first statement (again) made me laugh. (Don't worry about my laughing: it's a laugh of delight/surprise--because, like I've said: I like you.) Most of us believe there's a creator (God) because the Bible tells us so. And nature/life/history/common sense/etc. confirms the truth of the Bible for us. But you are only "pretty much convinced" of....what is "pretty much" an important part of our belief system (that there IS a God). You believe in the spirit, but you have no idea what it is. (Most of us believe the Spirit is the Holy Spirit--which is God's spirit, in us) The man Jesus was (according to some) God himself, in the human form of a man who was born of a virgin (fulfilling scripture). Others believe he was the Son of God. And, of course, both believe that he was the Saviour. Please don't be offended by my statements. What I really mean (and what I'm really saying with all that I've said is: ) "You're not boring!!!" (And I hate being bored...so that means I really like you!! Okay???) Are you, perhaps, a new Christian? (If so, don't worry about it. And if you're not, don't worry about it either). We all have to work our understanding out: and I'm still trying to do that myself) Hey, I really didn't mean to make this thread about me; I apologize. I don't know what a "new Christian" is. I'm probably closer to Clearday because she doesn't consider the 2x2 way "perfect". But, you see, the rest of you have a tremendous advantage over me: You all believe every word of the Bible. I can't anymore. When you say, "I believe because the Bible says so", I just don't relate. I love the Bible and it fascinates me, far more now than it used to years ago when I was a blind believer.
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Jun 13, 2007 22:04:53 GMT -5
Clearday - thank you for the list above and seconded by Zorro. Some great practical suggestions that I would love to see as well.
Someone once provided an acrostic (is that the right word?) for their list of suggested changes that was easy for me to remember:
G-R-A-C-E
G: Grace properly understood. R: Rules and Regulations lose their emphasis. Rightly dividing the scriptures. A: Acknowledgement of the history of our fellowship C: Celibate ministry no longer a requirement. Clergy mentality removed. E: Exclusivity removed. Equal brotherhood of believers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2007 22:14:04 GMT -5
Clearday - thank you for the list above and seconded by Zorro. Some great practical suggestions that I would love to see as well. Someone once provided an acrostic (is that the right word?) for their list of suggested changes that was easy for me to remember: G-R-A-C-E G: Grace properly understood. R: Rules and Regulations lose their emphasis. Rightly dividing the scriptures. A: Acknowledgement of the history of our fellowship C: Celibate ministry no longer a requirement. Clergy mentality removed. E: Exclusivity removed. Equal brotherhood of believers. Pretty good GoBlue, I like them all. Thanks. Perhaps it's time for a web site to lay out the path to a better day.
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bert cannot handle honesty
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Post by bert cannot handle honesty on Jun 14, 2007 10:45:27 GMT -5
the bump sponsored by bert
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Post by there it is on Jun 14, 2007 10:51:58 GMT -5
There it is. Bert admits that he disagrees with truth.
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Post by someguy on Jun 14, 2007 13:59:31 GMT -5
Bert when you refer to threads you disagree with are you meaning on this board in general or are you meaning some of the opinions expressed in this thread?
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Ramona
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Post by Ramona on Jun 14, 2007 18:01:06 GMT -5
To Go Blue:
I love it! Thanks
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Post by TubeTrain on Jun 17, 2007 14:45:01 GMT -5
GREAT TESTIMONY. WELL PUT CHARLES STORCK.
TO: "as I c it" I'm gonna be blunt with you and I don't care if I upset you or anyone else. You beat around the bushes too much defending the Workers. You don't address the real issues regarding the workers i.e you always give them the benifit of the doubt. You contradict yourself from time to time.
In response to your Reply#2 1) The workers that have upset MANY peolpe are in positions of Leadership and authority. You have no doubt in classing these workers as "Babes in Christ". Babies sleep, eat, burp and poo. Therefor BABES in christ.... neads to STAND-DOWN. SIMPLE. 2) If you are not progressing as a worker. THEN STAND-DOWN and don't lead the fold astray.... FULL-STOP! 3) In your last line. When you say "over time". How long is "Over time"..... ?? and don't reply... "how long is a piece of string". 4) You said "there now exists differences in opinions". Well put. This is evidence of the lack of uniformity in the 2x2 church... So, which worker do you recommed I listen to?? Which worker should I not listen to??
TO: "ClearDay" You too are not getting it. This is not an issue of GROWTH and PAIN and your stance in the 2x2 etc. The point of this Thread is to show and illustrate via a real life example that the WORKERS think "WE ARE THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH".
TO "Nathan9" You will take anyones side when Charles Storck is involved because he has corrected you so much in the past. We all know you lie, coverup and franly a weirdo.
ClearDay. as I C it. Nathan9. Please can only YOU 3 answer my following question. 1) This post is simple. A Black ex gang member is saved because he has acknowledged Christ as his saviour just before he died. DO YOU ACCEPT THIS? and where is the PROBLEM in this? 2) So , What CANT we say in meetings? 3) And you all meantion you are still learning. WHAT IS IT YOU ARE LEARNING? 4) 100 years after it's formation what has this 2x2 group learnt and achieved?
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Post by as I c it on Jun 17, 2007 15:23:31 GMT -5
Tube Train,
a) You haven't upset me. I expect blunt comments and don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to necessarily agree with me or anything I post.
I post my opinion. Others can post theirs. (It's a fair deal).
b) I do tend (and try to) give the workers the benefit of the doubt. And I also admit that I often contradict myself. (Many times it may be because I'm trying to be honest--while--still giving the workers the benefits of the doubt).
"Why" do I do the above???
There are many reasons. Among them the fact that although the workers are often spoke of as being one group (with all of them exactly the same in how they think/act/react/and say/do etc)--that simply isn't true.
Bert, Nathan9, Clearday, diet coke, Timber, Brick, GoBlue(?) and others, (like me) may all be in one group (the 2x2's) but--as you can see for yourself--we're all very different (in some ways) on how we feel or think: it all depends on the subject being discussed.
I won't deny the reality that harm/wrong has taken place. But--were all the workers guilty of doing it??? or in agreement with it?? and was it their intention to do that wrong?
The perspective of the workers (and their motives) because they are workers, can be quite a bit different than the perspectives and motives of the various (and different) believers.
And since they don't post here, I try to give some balance to their side too.
c) When I referred to them being "babes in Christ", I was actually referring to 100 years ago, when so many just left all and became workers. (How much knowledge did they possess before they became the teachers?? And the authority on the scriptures?)
d) Which workers should you listen to? The ones which arrive at the same destination of truth as stated in the Bible.
God's word is there. Believe Him.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 17, 2007 15:44:26 GMT -5
Tube Train,
1. Yes. (I have no problem with it)
2. Anything that would be said in such a way as to upset the fellowbelievers in our church. (We're not there to preach and convert others to our ways of thinking or believing. We're there to worship and have fellowship with one another).
3. To know God: Christ: and have a deeper, truer relationship with them: and to become more like Christ. And to strengthen our faith: and grow in love and the knowledge of the truth.
4. A lot!!! Each may have started knowing nothing more than "we're the only right ones" out there: but today, everyone knows so much more in knowledge than that!
I've tried to keep it short, and still answer your questions. Hope I achieved both.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2007 18:22:35 GMT -5
ClearDay. as I C it. Nathan9. Please can only YOU 3 answer my following question. 1) This post is simple. A Black ex gang member is saved because he has acknowledged Christ as his saviour just before he died. DO YOU ACCEPT THIS? and where is the PROBLEM in this?
No problem. If it's ok with God, it's ok with me!
2) So , What CANT we say in meetings?
Profanity. That Jesus is not the Son of God. That Jesus is not the resurrected Christ. That God does not exist. Anything anti-Christ. 3) And you all meantion you are still learning. WHAT IS IT YOU ARE LEARNING? Oh, I know it all of course! Through personal experience I am still learning about the attributes of God, how to improve my relationship with Him, how to behave wisely in this world. Lots more to learn. 4) 100 years after it's formation what has this 2x2 group learnt and achieved? While in this group I have come to a place of repentence and personal relationship with God. That's a major achievement.
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 17, 2007 19:40:17 GMT -5
Tube Train, 1. Yes. (I have no problem with it) 2. Anything that would be said in such a way as to upset the fellow believers in our church. (We're not there to preach and convert others to our ways of thinking or believing. We're there to worship and have fellowship with one another). 3. To know God: Christ: and have a deeper, truer relationship with them: and to become more like Christ. And to strengthen our faith: and grow in love and the knowledge of the truth. 4. A lot!!! Each may have started knowing nothing more than "we're the only right ones" out there: but today, everyone knows so much more in knowledge than that! I've tried to keep it short, and still answer your questions. Hope I achieved both. " 2. Anything that would be said in such a way as to upset the fellow believers in our church. (We're not there to preach and convert others to our ways of thinking or believing. We're there to worship and have fellowship with one another). " We are there to preach and share our experience such that it will help others grow.
There will never be growth with out people becoming upset. There are those in meeting who will get upset at anything which speaks of God working outside of the fellowship. Convert? Not sure what you mean by this? If we do not examine ourselves as a Church members then how will we grow? (Conversion to greater understand and there by being closer to God is the whole purpose of edification and fellowship) --(This is also the method of how we lift each other up, i.e. speaking to the Glory of Gods works and thereby enhancing the larger understanding that God is in Control and not us) ed·i·fi·ca·tion /ˌɛdəfɪˈkeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ed-uh-fi-key-shuhn] –noun 1. an act of edifying. 2. the state of being edified; uplift. 3. moral improvement or guidance. [Origin: 1350–1400; ME (< AF) < L aedificātiōn- (s. of aedificātiō), equiv. to aedificāt(us) (ptp. of aedificāre) built (aedi- s. of aedés house + -fic-, comb. form of facere to make + -ātus -ate1) + -iōn- -ion] Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source ed·i·fi·ca·tion (ěd'ə-fĭ-kā'shən) Pronunciation Key n. Intellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement; enlightenmenPlease notice the state of improvement: [bIntellectual, moral, or spiritual improvement][/b] This goes right to the heart of my experience. One is only allowed to say things that others want you to say or want to hear. Perhaps it is time that the church started to hear the issues which have been avoided? Now here is a story which directly goes to the issue. They had their beliefs and their customs. They watched very closely every move/action that Jesus made such to be able to lay accusation against Him. The F&W's as it is right now, are doing in a very similar manner. If you upset our apple cart then something is wrong with youJesusMk:3:5: And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
It would seem that you discuss the issues but still want total capitulation to the group think. You cannot have it both ways. I took the easy way out. I walked away. Just food for thought. I appreciate the discussion and understanding of the problems you see. To even discuss for the sake of learning, words must be spoken both in the smaller meetings and in the larger context.
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Post by someguy on Jun 17, 2007 20:48:57 GMT -5
Hey Clearday
you asked if only you could reply, are you meaning someone else?
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Post by Blind Nathan on Jun 17, 2007 22:21:16 GMT -5
TO "Nathan9" You will take anyones side when Charles Storck is involved because he has corrected you so much in the past. We all know you lie, coverup and franly a weirdo. ~~~ ;D What did I lie about? Covered up? What cover are you talking about TT?
Weirdo? Ha! I have been posting these message boards for 10 yrs and you are the first one to call me a weirdo. hahaha. ClearDay. as I C it. Nathan9. Please can only YOU 3 answer my following question. 1) This post is simple. A Black ex gang member is saved because he has acknowledged Christ as his Saviour just before he died. DO YOU ACCEPT THIS? and where is the PROBLEM in this? ~~~ That is between him and God. I say let his light so shine before men that they might know he is a child of God. People can tell whether he is born again or not by his words, actions and the spirit of Christ which manifest from his heart to others around him. Anyone can say he is born again but does his life shows it? is the real test. Time will tell. 2) So , What CANT we say in meetings? ~~~ You can't tell the workers or the friends are the children of Satan and this is a Cult in the meetings. If you did then they will politely ask you to leave and come back when you feel better.3) And you all meantion you are still learning. WHAT IS IT YOU ARE LEARNING? ~~~ I am still learning more about Jesus as Lord and my God. My Savior and king.4) 100 years after it's formation what has this 2x2 group learnt and achieved? ~~~ Well, the 2x2 Itinerant ministry Gospel of Jesus has reached many countries in the world.... Many people have been SAVED by the Gospel of Jesus through the workers and the friends world wide.
I have learned Jesus words and promises are TRUE and worthy to take great notice of.Question: 1) This post is simple. A Black ex gang member is saved because he has acknowledged Christ as his Saviour just before he died. DO YOU ACCEPT THIS? and where is the PROBLEM in this?
Nathans Answer: ~~~ That is between him and God. I say let his light so shine before men that they might know he is a child of God. People can tell whether he is born again or not by his words, actions and the spirit of Christ which manifest from his heart to others around him. Anyone can say he is born again but does his life shows it? is the real test. Time will tell. Time will tellNathan, the Brother has Died. Did you not read the account? So then you just shoot from the hip without even knowing the story. Apparently there was one who testified to his accepting Christ. The guys remaining time was told.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2007 22:50:07 GMT -5
Hey Clearday you asked if only you could reply, are you meaning someone else? someguy, if you are referring to my last post on this thread then I think you are referring to someone else's questions which I was responding to. My text was in blue letters, the black letters were cut and pasted from someone else's posts asking the questions. Sorry I didn't specify that in my post, trying to post too quickly.
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Post by someguy on Jun 17, 2007 23:02:17 GMT -5
Hey Clearday
my bad, I hadn't read a post earlier on that asked you a specific question.
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Post by as I c it on Jun 18, 2007 7:23:08 GMT -5
Nathan,
Paul said he committed blasphemy (when he was Saul). And God forgave him because it was done out of ignorance.
Once he became Paul, and realized what he'd done, he repented of it.
And that's partly why he was so grateful to God. (You might want to check that out)
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Post by as I c it on Jun 18, 2007 8:09:58 GMT -5
Charles,
Haven't there been postings made to the effect that there are some workers who aren't in agreement with us being the only right ones?
It seems to me, from what I've read, that this is one of those gray areas among both the workers and the believers.
In our church, your testimony would have been accepted. Some might have agreed 100% with you that that salvation had taken place. Others might have thought it was "probably" true: and maybe a couple or two would have disagreed with your conclusion.
But I don't think anyone would have gotten upset with you over it.
Our church is composed of individuals who have accepted that spiritual growth is a personal thing. And forbearing each other in love as we work out our salvation tends to be the attitude within our church.
I agree with truth being spoken. And truth seekers having the room to work their salvation out (without punishment for it).
At least those believers still care (and are alive). And are "hot" and not cold or lukewarm believers.
Stretching OURSELVES to cope with them is good exercise for putting into action what our mouths say. And according to the scriptures, "tribulation" is good for producing the fruit of the spirit.
By the way,
Speaking of the reactions of others, where'd Zorro go in this discussion??? I was hoping he'd stay continue to be part of it here (and on the other thread). And hoping Spiderman would come back too...
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Post by as I c it on Jun 18, 2007 8:56:58 GMT -5
Nathan9,
I don't need to check it out...We're in agreement. Those who willfully do it have made a conscious choice to be an enemy of God. (Whereas Saul thought he was doing God's work when he persecuted the Christians).
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Post by Charles Storck on Jun 18, 2007 10:57:56 GMT -5
Charles,
Haven't there been postings made to the effect that there are some workers who aren't in agreement with us being the only right ones?
It seems to me, from what I've read, that this is one of those gray areas among both the workers and the believers.
In our church, your testimony would have been accepted. Some might have agreed 100% with you that that salvation had taken place. Others might have thought it was "probably" true: and maybe a couple or two would have disagreed with your conclusion.
But I don't think anyone would have gotten upset with you over it.
Our church is composed of individuals who have accepted that spiritual growth is a personal thing. And forbearing each other in love as we work out our salvation tends to be the attitude within our church.
I agree with truth being spoken. And truth seekers having the room to work their salvation out (without punishment for it).
At least those believers still care (and are alive). And are "hot" and not cold or lukewarm believers.
Stretching OURSELVES to cope with them is good exercise for putting into action what our mouths say. And according to the scriptures, "tribulation" is good for producing the fruit of the spirit.
By the way,
Speaking of the reactions of others, where'd Zorro go in this discussion??? I was hoping he'd stay continue to be part of it here (and on the other thread). And hoping Spiderman would come back too... First of all I want to say that the discussion is very good in that I see many recognize some of these problems. Yes, there very well may be some who do not agree with the only way belief. This is good that one can see the works of the Holy Spirit outside of the group. As I said and you have clarified. (In your area)-seems to be one of the major issues. This dichotomy of the group dynamics drained my patience. I have no problem with a group who is exclusive and consistent in their beliefs. However be consistent. The teachers are not consistent in many doctrinal issues. One says this another says that. Some will not commit on many of the issues because they don't want to be accountable. Damage Results-I find it very saddening when I see parents telling their children and in some cases adult children that they are going to hell because they do not fall in line with the group thinking. It is further saddening to see workers support this hurt. Constructive Growth-On the other hand, I did see very loving parents speaking and learning with their children . The end result of the last is learning, greater love, and spiritual growth in God. Do you see the analogy here? Based on a small select group, the friends and workers in my area were consistent. They did not like what I had to share. I say a small select group because there were only a few driving the whole issue. Some others have shared that they had no problem with what I said and in fact agreed with me. However, (and a big however), for the sake of the group they remain silent. They do not want to be shunned either. As I said - For me, I no longer could juggle my beliefs and understanding with a split spiritual personality. i.e. can speak of this issue with this friend but low, heaven forbid if I even hint about the subject to this other friend. I stood for acceptance and love and not rejection. I stood for a larger understanding of Who Our Lord is. I will continue to stand and not be silent. The group (driven by only a few) decided that they did not want to hear it. ( Harsh but true-some wanted to keep their little bubble and others just would not allow thinking outside of what the workers wanted them to think) OK. they have that right,-So then I walk. I do not walk away from my Lord and Master Jesus Christ. I do not walk with the devil in ignorance. I have not fallen. I will not forsake nor blaspheme the Holy Spirit for anyone or any group.Side story. HOLY SPIRIT Jn:3:8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.So then I say, "Do you see that man across the street, how that his trees are swaying in the wind and the leaves are falling?" "Yes", the reply. I say, "Note also my trees sway in the wind also. Is it not the same God who does this? Notice that I have nothing to do with my neighbors trees, yet they move also just the same as mine." "Well yes, We know God created this all", was the reply. So then how can I deny that the HOLY SPIRIT is in others when I see the results? Silence + rebuke Such a simple concept and yet not accepted.So then If not accepted for what I say and believe, so be it. I walk away.
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Post by to Charles on Jun 18, 2007 12:28:07 GMT -5
I admire your courage and strength to be what God intended for you to believe. You have not let fear control your life - you are now a light to the dark 2x2 world. God Bless You
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Post by as I c it on Jun 18, 2007 13:23:05 GMT -5
SL,
Maybe the biggest change within our group is that we ARE now...studying...and learning...from our mistakes (and because we made them).
What I mean by that is this:
Those who stayed silent (knowing that they should have spoken up and in your defence) now have guilty consciences...eating away at them (because inside themselves, they know they did you--and themselves--and maybe even this fellowship-wrong) by staying silent.
That's not going to feel good to them...and it's going to cause them to make a decision about "the next time" that same event takes place. And the next time: more will speak up. (Or, more will be so bothered by what happened, they'll be one step closer to leaving).
1) We're a religious group of believers 2) There are a number of scriptures which refer to us having "a good conscience" before God 3) And, if that is "surrendered", then....what's left? And: where do we find peace and an escape from a conscience which is convicting of guilt?
(Answer: there is no escape from that knowledge).
And that's where the ripple effects that I spoke about previously are coming from.
It's those who were made guilty (by their knowledge that they were silent--when they should have spoken up in your defence: and their knowledge--that they were cowards) that now has them gaining the strength "for the next time"....that is resulting in this "movement".
It's not me: (and what I say). It's not you (who is now gone): it's "them"--with the guilty consciences--that are seeking to find peace--and to "make right" the wrong they were party to...
The ripples (within them) are causing those ripples (to go out). And it's the knowledge of what took place that's also working on others--and causing them to now become aware of the scriptures they previously never noticed--or thought about.
And I'm sure many workers are now looking into that subject too.
You chose to have a good conscience. I don't see how anyone could have chosen otherwise. I don't even know how you can worship God without one...
But I'm sure it's those like you that have brought about the changes now taking place in our fellowship (which is why I said it was the exes pushing and pulling this train). It's what happened to them that's causing others to think! Examine the scriptures. Grow. Change. And enlarge their knowledge. And make new decisions based on that knowledge.
As for the Holy Spirit:
I'm going to side with Jesus on that one. Jesus himself said: in Mark and Matthew: "For he that is not against us is on our part".
My personal belief is: It's not good to argue with God...or His Son!! (And not good to commit blasphemy).
(Besides, logic tells me that has to be so). No one in their right mind can claim that we're the evangelists!
We exist. We have the Holy Spirit: we have a purpose: and we're fulfilling it! That's all I know...
And the rest, I'm sure, is all being worked out--to the good!
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