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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 21, 2017 17:09:21 GMT -5
So movies are worldly, but computers and smart phones aren't ? Do you live in the "world" ? Wearing shorts, make up, school sports are worldly? What is the world coming to? What about a flash house, expensive clothes, flash car, eating at restaurants, a woman wearing her hair up. I'm sure I can think of more worldly things which you had not thought of. In other words you can call anything you want worldly. Sport is healthy. Perhaps going to the gym is worldly too. Some of the things you mentioned could be considered worldly. Why would a Christian need a flash car or expensive [beyond practicality] clothes? What is worldly about a woman having her hair up? Maybe you subscribe to the theory that a woman's veil consists of her long hair worn loose, but I don't see a reasonable case for putting it up on the head being worldly. You can't just [reasonably] call anything you want 'worldly'. Physical health and worldliness are two different issues. Playing sports isn't always healthy and there's nothing particularly healthy at all about watching professional sports on a regular basis.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 21, 2017 18:43:40 GMT -5
We've written on some of this before and you most certainly don't agree with me as I write from a Christian perspective. Some of what Get off of TMB listed above can reasonably be called worldly: most movies, Netflix, etc., wearing shorts, wearing makeup, school sports, and wearing of what is typically worn at beaches. If these are "accepted" (right or wrong), that is certainly due to influence from the world. I realize you do not see a problem in that. Some are more clearly worldly or more clearly sinful than others. Where is the sin in those things?
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Post by fred on Oct 21, 2017 21:18:03 GMT -5
Very true ........ but oh, the irony.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 21, 2017 23:28:55 GMT -5
Gill, I think that you are against "tats," Am I right?
Other day when we were at a doctor's office I noticed the receptionist's cross on a chain on her neck. Nothing unusual about that. But then I saw tats on each of her fingers (couldn't see exactly what they were) and tat of a cross on her wrist!
A new way of wearing your religion on your sleeve, I guess! Like some people who wear their religion on the back of their head. Right!
Except WE didn't have a choice!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 21, 2017 23:39:15 GMT -5
I personally think tats are disgusting. No young man with a snake on his neck is going to look like a gentleman no matter how nice of a guy he might be. That is just a personal opinion. When you are wearing long pants and a short sleeve shirt and you tattoos still show, you are limiting your chances of working at some jobs. That doesn't mean I think they are wrong. Just poor taste. I wrote the above list in haste. There are regional and family differences in the kingdom, that's for sure. I know! That was why I just HAD to post that!
Yep, we know how you feel about "tat's"
But the "young man with a snake" tat on his neck might be more of a gentleman than the guy in a button down shirt and tie who might might be the real "snake" who would con you out of your life's savings!
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Post by speak on Oct 22, 2017 1:12:14 GMT -5
Get off of TMB , when did you last go to to meeting, regularly as someone considered professing? What general region of the country are you from? Good luck with getting an answer
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Post by speak on Oct 22, 2017 1:13:54 GMT -5
I personally think tats are disgusting. No young man with a snake on his neck is going to look like a gentleman no matter how nice of a guy he might be. That is just a personal opinion. When you are wearing long pants and a short sleeve shirt and you tattoos still show, you are limiting your chances of working at some jobs. That doesn't mean I think they are wrong. Just poor taste. I wrote the above list in haste. There are regional and family differences in the kingdom, that's for sure. I know! That was why I just HAD to post that!
Yep, we know how you feel about "tat's"
But the "young man with a snake" tat on his neck might be more of a gentleman than the guy in a button down shirt and tie who might might be the real "snake" who would con you out of your life's savings!Yes so many in white collar crime take a lot more, even to peoples lives.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 22, 2017 3:03:30 GMT -5
I know! That was why I just HAD to post that!
Yep, we know how you feel about "tat's"
But the "young man with a snake" tat on his neck might be more of a gentleman than the guy in a button down shirt and tie who might might be the real "snake" who would con you out of your life's savings! Yes so many in white collar crime take a lot more, even to peoples lives. Speak, you ...would be familiar with Graeme Capill. I had kind of forgotten about him until your comment about white collar crime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_CapillGraham John Capill (born 1959) is a former New Zealand Christian leader and politician. He served as the first leader of the now-defunct Christian Heritage Party, stepping down in 2003. In 2005 he was convicted of multiple sexual offences against girls under 12 ... Further charges of rape and indecent assault against girls aged under 12 ...
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Post by speak on Oct 22, 2017 20:51:35 GMT -5
Yes so many in white collar crime take a lot more, even to peoples lives. Speak, you ...would be familiar with Graeme Capill. I had kind of forgotten about him until your comment about white collar crime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_CapillGraham John Capill (born 1959) is a former New Zealand Christian leader and politician. He served as the first leader of the now-defunct Christian Heritage Party, stepping down in 2003. In 2005 he was convicted of multiple sexual offences against girls under 12 ... Further charges of rape and indecent assault against girls aged under 12 ... I know of him but I wouldn't care to know him, a real sorry creature. A Christian not, anyone who does those things is a Christain.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 23, 2017 0:19:58 GMT -5
Speak, you ...would be familiar with Graeme Capill. I had kind of forgotten about him until your comment about white collar crime. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_CapillGraham John Capill (born 1959) is a former New Zealand Christian leader and politician. He served as the first leader of the now-defunct Christian Heritage Party, stepping down in 2003. In 2005 he was convicted of multiple sexual offences against girls under 12 ... Further charges of rape and indecent assault against girls aged under 12 ... I know of him but I wouldn't care to know him, a real sorry creature. A Christian not, anyone who does those things is a Christain.Yes he is a really disgusting creature. Do you remember how he said in his defence that sex with one of the girls was consensal. She was aged 8. He also asked his followers to pray for light sentence. Thankfully prayer does not work. There was also this said which further showed the Christian Heritage Party to be a bunch of no hopers. After the election, controversy arose when former CHNZ Policy Director Mark Munroe defended Capill in a private email, arguing that his serial paedophile offenses did not fit the "biblical definition of rape". Ewen McQueen and the CHNZ Board pressured Munroe for his resignation, which ultimately occurred.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 23, 2017 7:59:20 GMT -5
bgm - Your remarks above concerning the current day observance of certain 2x2 traditions would be more meaningful if you provided the country and what part of that country you are speaking from. Thanks for your consideration.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Oct 23, 2017 16:06:37 GMT -5
There are a few no longer an issue things-wedding bands, black stockings or even wearing stockings to meeting, men wearing a tie to meeting/convention, sandals, wrist watches, gold colored watches, Saturday night get togethers, after meeting get togethers, fancy weddings, working at a TV or music store,Christmas decorations etc. Heck I have heard of a boyfriend and girl friend taking a long vacation with nobody else present.
Alcoholic beverages are still banned in the US but in western Europe the senior workers partake of beer and wine for meals.
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Post by matisse on Oct 23, 2017 16:12:51 GMT -5
There are a few no longer an issue things-wedding bands, black stockings or even wearing stockings to meeting, men wearing a tie to meeting/convention, sandals, wrist watches, gold colored watches, Saturday night get togethers, after meeting get togethers, fancy weddings, working at a TV or music store,Christmas decorations etc. Heck I have heard of a boyfriend and girl friend taking a long vacation with nobody else present. Alcoholic beverages are still banned in the US but in western Europe the senior workers partake of beer and wine for meals. I know a number of professing folks who drink alcohol in the US (both Eastern and Western states) and who even post evidence of it on Facebook.
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2017 16:12:53 GMT -5
I never knew that socializing after Sunday morning meeting was not accepted. We often stayed for lunch with the family that had Sunday morning meeting and then when dad took over meetings, we had people stay for lunch quite often. I also remember that people used to stand around and visit. There was an older man that would always leave and not say much to anyone, but he wasn't the norm and I just thought he was either shy or a grouch. That was a kids perspective of him anyway.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Oct 23, 2017 16:54:30 GMT -5
There used to be a saying in my area that "the meeting after the meeting spoils the spirit of the meeting". However, unless the workers in our field promoted that, we usually talked awhile after meeting. It was an old Victorian English hangover.
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Post by fixit on Oct 24, 2017 2:56:42 GMT -5
Certainly attending college and working at jobs are commonly accepted. But that doesn't mean they're "frowned upon". Attending college is basically expected by most people. Generally it's not even questioned. calleduntoliberty, that maybe the case now, but that was NOT the case 20 years ago. Also there are still people who do "frown upon" girls going to University. We are talking about females here not males. Australia seems to be lagging behind the rest of the 2x2 world.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 24, 2017 4:27:03 GMT -5
calleduntoliberty, that maybe the case now, but that was NOT the case 20 years ago. Also there are still people who do "frown upon" girls going to University. We are talking about females here not males. Australia seems to be lagging behind the rest of the 2x2 world. In some places, I would say yes it is fixit.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2017 6:36:43 GMT -5
There used to be a saying in my area that "the meeting after the meeting spoils the spirit of the meeting". However, unless the workers in our field promoted that, we usually talked awhile after meeting. It was an old Victorian English hangover. IN MY OPINION IF THAT IS CORRECT, THEN THE SPIRIT OF THE MEETING WILL HAVE BEEN VERY WEAK INDEED, AND PROBABLY A WASTE OF TIME. BEING A NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST DOES NOT IN ANY WAY MEAN THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER A HUMAN BEING, AND NOT PRONE TO SOME FORMS OF HUMAN BEHAVIOUR AND CHARACTERISTICS. NO ONE IS PERFECT- shepherds AND sheep included.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2017 9:13:27 GMT -5
The late bro worker, Lloyd Wilson, who mainly preached in Southern USA, agreed with walking out of meetings with a mere greeting and handshake and going home. Afraid the spirit would be lost or scared off with too much visiting. Once after a Sunday a.m. meeting in Longview, TX, people were visiting as was our norm in Texas, and he spoke up loudly, and said, well, if yall won't go home, then let's sit down and sing another song, and he herded everyone back into their seats, and called out a song and we sang a song or two; and then we got up and walked out solemnly, looking at each other quizzically behind Lloyd's back. Gene - Were you there? or were you at meetings where he did the same? Any comments? What the reason Lloyd gave for doing this? However, it didn't stop the visiting when Lloyd wasn't in our particular meeting. He also upset some Oklahoma Friends when he newly came to their field and stopped some get togethers/potlucks--around 1987-8.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2017 9:18:45 GMT -5
Like the Faith Mission, who did not accept workers who used tobacco or intoxicating liquor, the 2x2 Workers also abstained from their very start. A 1903 newspaper reported that: "The pilgrims are total abstainers both from intoxicating drink and tobacco. A Mr. Donaldson, of Derrygonnelly, who professes to be ‘saved’ since he joined the body, has also as a matter of conscience, given up the sale of tobacco, in which he had had a turnover of £700 a year. He believes it to be a sin to smoke or to sell the tobacco…" www.tellingthetruth.info/newspapers/1903.php#1903Jan15 It is interesting that about 20 years later, Wm. Irvine regretted his stand prohibiting drinking and smoking, and was convinced it has caused many to stumble, and that: "we gravely misrepresented our God in the way we treated the use of wines and tobacco. It had no more to do with the Gospel than the color of a man's hair or the smell of onions….all the words I have spoken against drink and tobacco back…now I know they were of the Devil, while I thought they were of God when I spoke them." (Dec. 13, 1920 Letter to Alfred Magowan) It is rather remarkable that the Early Workers from the UK and Ireland who crossed the Atlantic Ocean to North America at some point began to passionately enforce a prohibition against drinking alcoholic beverages in the 2x2 Church. Yet, the majority of the Early Workers who chose to step across the English Channel to Europe thought the better philosophy was "When in Rome do as the Romans do," and elected to become “all things to all men, that [they] might by all means save some.” An ex-Worker who visited in Friends' homes in Europe, remarked that "the same God obviously had given completely different guidelines to different messengers in different lands…After all, had I not sat around tables in France, in Italy, or in Germany and Greece while the Workers uncorked the bottles of wine and, after helping themselves to a sip or two, passed them around in order that the rest of us could fill our goblets as well? I had." (In Vain They do Worship by Willis Young) www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/willisyoung1.phpAn American 2x2 couple were visiting Italy. The night before Special Meeting, the Workers invited them to have dinner at the home where the Meeting would be held. Two American Workers were there, Virginia Mitchelleti and Nick Enreitta, five other Workers, some other Friends, making about 14 altogether at the dinner table, upon which sat about seven bottles of wine. "After the blessing, Nick started pouring everyone a glass of wine. As we were going for the third refill, Virginia said to my wife, 'When we have visitors here from the states, I try to be careful not to drink too much in front of them.' Now, that was very considerate of her! When dinner was over, we visited awhile and then we went to bed. I said to my wife, 'Do they have a different God and a different heaven over here than we have back in the states?' They had a huge house and about 30 people came for the Special Meeting in their living room. They called us into the dining room to eat lunch buffet style and on the table stood about 15 bottles of wine. Now, that was something to behold!" (Tom and Geraldine Schroeder). There is no scripture that condemns the temperate use of alcoholic beverages by Christians, except for priests serving actively at the tabernacle altar (Leviticus 19:9) and those under the Azurite vow (Numbers 6, Acts 21:23–26). Wine is mentioned throughout the entire scripture probably because water was a very scanty commodity, and since there were many excellent vineyards all over the Palestinian countryside, along with numerous herds of goats, “milk and wine” became the common man’s drink. It would not have dawned on anyone that it was sinful to drink it. Jesus must not have thought ill of it when He turned six water pots into the wine that the governor of the feast found quite tasty. Both Matthew and Luke record that Jesus also drank wine. "The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber" (Luke 7:34) Had Jesus been drinking only water and milk, he would hardly have been called a “drinker” or a “wine bibber.”
When Paul wrote the Ephesians 5:18, he did not tell them that they couldn’t “have a drink.” He said “And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit.” “Be not drunk” is a far cry from complete abstinence and is very close to the admonition that we should be “moderate in all things” and “temperate in all our ways.” Moderation and temperance seem also to be two of the leading requirements or qualifications of an elder. In 1 Timothy 3:2-3 Paul said a bishop must be sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; not given to wine. Paul did not direct Timothy to choose only those who were abstainers or teetotalers. For a time, Friends would not even eat in a restaurant where alcohol was served. When Brother Worker, Jim Brown, (in his '80s) was preaching at the Seneca, Illinois Convention, he told about he and three Workers going to a restaurant. He asked the hostess if they served wine. They did. Jim told her they would have to leave and find another place to eat, as they could not eat in a place where wine was present. He went on to instruct his audience, "You had better do the same thing. If a restaurant serves wine, you should not eat there."Many of the Friends have figured out that moderate drinking is not a sin. Currently, it is not unheard of for wine to be served in the U.S. with meals with Workers present.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 24, 2017 10:07:31 GMT -5
An American 2x2 couple were visiting Italy. The night before Special Meeting, the Workers invited them to have dinner at the home where the Meeting would be held. Two American Workers were there, Virginia Mitchelleti and Nick Enreitta, five other Workers, some other Friends, making about 14 altogether at the dinner table, upon which sat about seven bottles of wine. "After the blessing, Nick started pouring everyone a glass of wine. As we were going for the third refill, Virginia said to my wife, 'When we have visitors here from the states, I try to be careful not to drink too much in front of them.' Now, that was very considerate of her! When dinner was over, we visited awhile and then we went to bed. I said to my wife, 'Do they have a different God and a different heaven over here than we have back in the states?' They had a huge house and about 30 people came for the Special Meeting in their living room. They called us into the dining room to eat lunch buffet style and on the table stood about 15 bottles of wine. Now, that was something to behold!" (Tom and Geraldine Schroeder). What a very odd comment by that fellow. Most people would start to be mentally affected by the third glass of wine. It was wise not to continue into "excess". Even better would be to leave the decision to individuals -- not to pour without asking.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 24, 2017 10:09:03 GMT -5
The late bro worker, Lloyd Wilson, who mainly preached in Southern USA, agreed with walking out of meetings with a mere greeting and handshake and going home. Afraid the spirit would be lost or scared off with too much visiting. Once after a Sunday a.m. meeting in Longview, TX, people were visiting as was our norm in Texas, and he spoke up loudly, and said, well, if yall won't go home, then let's sit down and sing another song, and he herded everyone back into their seats, and called out a song and we sang a song or two; and then we got up and walked out solemnly, looking at each other quizzically behind Lloyd's back. Gene - Were you there? or were you at meetings where he did the same? Any comments? What the reason Lloyd gave for doing this? However, it didn't stop the visiting when Lloyd wasn't in our particular meeting. He also upset some Oklahoma Friends when he newly came to their field and stopped some get togethers/potlucks--around 1987-8. This anecdote suggests two things: That individuals like that existed and that they were exceptional.
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Post by Grant on Oct 24, 2017 10:57:37 GMT -5
An American 2x2 couple were visiting Italy. The night before Special Meeting, the Workers invited them to have dinner at the home where the Meeting would be held. Two American Workers were there, Virginia Mitchelleti and Nick Enreitta, five other Workers, some other Friends, making about 14 altogether at the dinner table, upon which sat about seven bottles of wine. "After the blessing, Nick started pouring everyone a glass of wine. As we were going for the third refill, Virginia said to my wife, 'When we have visitors here from the states, I try to be careful not to drink too much in front of them.' Now, that was very considerate of her! When dinner was over, we visited awhile and then we went to bed. I said to my wife, 'Do they have a different God and a different heaven over here than we have back in the states?' They had a huge house and about 30 people came for the Special Meeting in their living room. They called us into the dining room to eat lunch buffet style and on the table stood about 15 bottles of wine. Now, that was something to behold!" (Tom and Geraldine Schroeder). What a very odd comment by that fellow. Most people would start to be mentally affected by the third glass of wine. It was wise not to continue into "excess". Even better would be to leave the decision to individuals -- not to pour without asking. What comment is odd? Do they have a different God and heaven...than in the states? You would think that if in your country alcohol is not accepted by professing folk as it was not in mine growing up or at least you might think that they went to a different church. I was shocked when I found out that professing people were drinking wine at restaurants when it had been a no, no to us. The 'Way' is not the same the world over.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 24, 2017 11:16:13 GMT -5
What a very odd comment by that fellow. Most people would start to be mentally affected by the third glass of wine. It was wise not to continue into "excess". Even better would be to leave the decision to individuals -- not to pour without asking. What comment is odd? Do they have a different God and heaven...than in the states? You would think that if in your country alcohol is not accepted by professing folk as it was not in mine growing up or at least you might think that they went to a different church. I was shocked when I found out that professing people were drinking wine at restaurants when it had been a no, no to us. The 'Way' is not the same the world over. Did you read the story? One lady suggested stopping after two servings of wine. Where do you get the idea "alcohol is not accepted" from a story that portrays a group of people drinking two glasses of wine? It's not there.
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Post by matisse on Oct 24, 2017 11:50:50 GMT -5
An American 2x2 couple were visiting Italy. The night before Special Meeting, the Workers invited them to have dinner at the home where the Meeting would be held. Two American Workers were there, Virginia Mitchelleti and Nick Enreitta, five other Workers, some other Friends, making about 14 altogether at the dinner table, upon which sat about seven bottles of wine. "After the blessing, Nick started pouring everyone a glass of wine. As we were going for the third refill, Virginia said to my wife, 'When we have visitors here from the states, I try to be careful not to drink too much in front of them.' Now, that was very considerate of her! When dinner was over, we visited awhile and then we went to bed. I said to my wife, 'Do they have a different God and a different heaven over here than we have back in the states?' They had a huge house and about 30 people came for the Special Meeting in their living room. They called us into the dining room to eat lunch buffet style and on the table stood about 15 bottles of wine. Now, that was something to behold!" (Tom and Geraldine Schroeder). What a very odd comment by that fellow. Most people would start to be mentally affected by the third glass of wine. It was wise not to continue into "excess". Even better would be to leave the decision to individuals -- not to pour without asking. Volume and timing matter. Seven bottles of wine for fourteen people would be roughly 2.5 glasses of wine per person. For a long, leisurely dinner with conversation after, this doesn't seem excessive. Placing a hand over the top of one's wine glass is a pretty universal way to indicate that you don't want any more.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Oct 24, 2017 11:57:17 GMT -5
Placing a hand over the top of one's wine glass is a pretty universal way to indicate that you don't want any more. Among people who drink wine commonly in group settings, and who they happen to notice when someone is about to refill (they may not, if engaged in conversation), that may be. If one happens to notice in time, or if one is asked, "no, thank you" works, too.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 24, 2017 12:20:13 GMT -5
The late bro worker, Lloyd Wilson, who mainly preached in Southern USA, agreed with walking out of meetings with a mere greeting and handshake and going home. Afraid the spirit would be lost or scared off with too much visiting. Once after a Sunday a.m. meeting in Longview, TX, people were visiting as was our norm in Texas, and he spoke up loudly, and said, well, if yall won't go home, then let's sit down and sing another song, and he herded everyone back into their seats, and called out a song and we sang a song or two; and then we got up and walked out solemnly, looking at each other quizzically behind Lloyd's back. Gene - Were you there? or were you at meetings where he did the same? Any comments? What the reason Lloyd gave for doing this? However, it didn't stop the visiting when Lloyd wasn't in our particular meeting. He also upset some Oklahoma Friends when he newly came to their field and stopped some get togethers/potlucks--around 1987-8. This anecdote suggests two things: That individuals like that existed and that they were exceptional. Yup - you're right on! Mr. Lloyd was one of a kind, and he didn't fit into the Texas 2x2 scene very well. A most unusual very serious man and worker. After he went on 2x2 visiting worker tour to some foreign poor countries, he became extremely frugal. Would use old pieces of tires he found along the road to resole his shoes so he could send more money to workers in foreign countries. Had his younger companion fill up the car with gas and pay for it out of their pocket, saving his money. Would get up very early in the a.m. and turn the light on, shocking his sleepy companion, and begin exercising. One time one of his companions decided to show Lloyd what that felt like, and so he got up earlier than Lloyd and turned on the light and stunned him. Dunno if it changed anything tho. When baching, and it was Lloyd's turn to cook, he threw all the ingredients into one pot...said they were going to get mixed up in ones stomach anyway. Needless to say, it wasnt very appetizing for some of his companions!
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Post by fixit on Oct 24, 2017 13:21:08 GMT -5
The late bro worker, Lloyd Wilson, who mainly preached in Southern USA, agreed with walking out of meetings with a mere greeting and handshake and going home. Afraid the spirit would be lost or scared off with too much visiting. Once after a Sunday a.m. meeting in Longview, TX, people were visiting as was our norm in Texas, and he spoke up loudly, and said, well, if yall won't go home, then let's sit down and sing another song, and he herded everyone back into their seats, and called out a song and we sang a song or two; and then we got up and walked out solemnly, looking at each other quizzically behind Lloyd's back. Gene - Were you there? or were you at meetings where he did the same? Any comments? What the reason Lloyd gave for doing this? However, it didn't stop the visiting when Lloyd wasn't in our particular meeting. He also upset some Oklahoma Friends when he newly came to their field and stopped some get togethers/potlucks--around 1987-8. Was it divide and rule? Encourage folks to be friends with the workers more than friends with one another?
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