|
Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 18:28:06 GMT -5
Young lady, (written respectfully also!) having visited with Tom Lynes, Jim and Nichol Jardine, Willie Weir, Jack Carroll, Joe Burriage, Sam Charlton, Leo S. Charlie Krub, Charlie Mitchel, Robert Darling, Anderson, and a host of others male and female sitting in their "mission meetings" (words not used in the Bible), they all believed and preached in God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit/(Ghost) Who knows when and where this "new" Gospel began to creep in? It is the "Jonny come lately(s)" who now proclaim otherwise from all appearances. John S. from Texas preached them as One. Another worker now out also preached them as One, as did Sylvester before becoming senile. One current American worker youngin in Mexico recently (past year or two) had to quit corresponding with his family over the matter as they cannot get the concept of God as anyone other than "The Father" into their heads. It is not necessary to use the word Triune" to explain the Concept of God as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the shamrock example They are not multiples but one. No, the Bible does not use the shamrock as an example, rather the need of being Baptized in the Name (not names) of of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As one ages, they realize how little such an argument really means. They are glad for that which has been preached of God from any source that has been proven true to themselves. The teaching on God has sadly changed since the early workers to the point where it is now often heretical. Today, many workers (and therefore friends) have no idea who God is. It would be more realistic to word it like this: "Today, many workers (and therefore friends) have a different idea of who God is than Ross does." To me, God is spirit with no human component. Its strange that folks believe a person of the godhead in heaven has a human body. Its also strange that folks believe the Holy Spirit is on Earth but not in heaven (I read that somewhere on TMB yesterday).
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 19:13:07 GMT -5
He rose from the dead, had a glorified eternal human body (we see this clearly) and this is still His body today. He is our eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizedek. He is still fully human (in a glorified sense) and fully God and in that sense with a human nature (not a sin nature) and completely divine nature. This is definitely a sticking point with me... The "Triune God" possesses a "glorified" human body? I assume that means the unchanging God did in fact change at the incarnation. Since then he has been a father, a human (with a divine nature) and a spirit?
|
|
|
Post by xna on Sept 4, 2015 19:57:43 GMT -5
If more overseers and workers speak publicly and openly Jesus is God NOT the Father but the Son then eventually other workers will follow their examples. When I professed, the workers preached against following men. They said; We are different. We show the one true way. We only follow Jesus. False preachers follow each other. They follow in the traditions of men....... For hundreds of years, people have been arguing about the nature of Jesus. This is a central question, and distinguishes a denomination. You can't be of one denomination, if you disagree on basic ideas. It is written, Jesus asked; "But who do you say that I am? That question should be put to bed by now. The 2x2 need to write down their basic beliefs, and get everyone on the same page. Otherwise people will believe they are just like any other denomination. Perhaps the 2x2 message is transforming from "we are the one right way", to "we are a better way", as others have said. As an "outsider", I see this as growing pains of a NRM.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 0:38:37 GMT -5
The Bible says when he returns they will see him whom they pierced. That sounds like a human body. Not necessarily, you'll know that some of the bible is figurative? However, if God sent his son in human form a couple thousand years ago, don't you think he's able to send him again in human form? There's no real need to have human form in your Triune God eternally.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 0:43:44 GMT -5
Ridiculous. Obviously XXXXXXX and a large number of current workers do not believe in God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However this was not always so. In about 1986 or so, Carson Cowan spoke at convention what many of us believed, and what George Walker had taught him that God is like a shamrock, Father Son and Holy Ghost, one yet three. Jack Carroll over on the West Coast also believed and taught it. Jim Jardine as well, and aa host of early workers. Accepted, these worker 'youngins" do not all agree with this, making them the ones now preaching a new Gospel and ignorant of the former once taught and believed world wide. Who is XXXXXXX and why is he singled out as not believing in the Trinity? Most F&W workers don't teach the trinity and haven't for many years. I don't remember them preaching the Trinity even 50 years ago, at least not in my region of the world. Some participants on TMB don't comprehend their moral obligation to preserve confidentiality here. I noticed with interest that the mods were very quick to move my Syria post to the secular board, but not so quick to remove a post that breaches confidentiality. Perhaps it's because of the weekend.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 0:53:38 GMT -5
It is written, Jesus asked; "But who do you say that I am? That question should be put to bed by now. The 2x2 need to write down their basic beliefs, and get everyone on the same page. Otherwise people will believe they are just like any other denomination. Perhaps the 2x2 message is transforming from "we are the one right way", to "we are a better way", as others have said. As an "outsider", I see this as growing pains of a NRM. Workers and friends believe the children of God are those who are led by the spirit of God, and that revelation is progressive. The tighter you nail down doctrine, the more likely you'll have people following creed rather than being open to the Spirit's leading.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2015 5:25:56 GMT -5
How did people get saved for 2,000 years before William Irvine come on the scene Mr Review?
Wonder why Xyz stirred you up so much. There is at least one person in their 80s on the board so why so surprised if xyz is getting on in years. Hope I'll still be around at that age.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 5, 2015 6:00:55 GMT -5
You do - in Hymns Old & New. True. ? Hi nightshift, not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Patricia Roberts put together 2 books about Edward Cooney. One is a biography of his life and ministry, the other is selected letters, hymns and poems of Edward Cooney. There are few copies around, but can probably be purchased through Amazon for a horrendous price.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 5, 2015 6:11:41 GMT -5
Ridiculous. Obviously xxxxxxx and a large number of current workers do not believe in God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However this was not always so. In about 1986 or so, Carson Cowan spoke at convention what many of us believed, and what George Walker had taught him that God is like a shamrock, Father Son and Holy Ghost, one yet three. Jack Carroll over on the West Coast also believed and taught it. Jim Jardine as well, and aa host of early workers. Accepted, these worker 'youngins" do not all agree with this, making them the ones now preaching a new Gospel and ignorant of the former once taught and believed world wide. Was interested to see Jim Jardine's name above - he wrote some excellent hymns, including one of all my all time favourites - When Life is Ended. ...'Twas Jesus vanquished death and the grave; 'Twas Jesus only bore my transgression For Jesus only my soul could save.
...He freed my soul from sin's curse and stainA great declaration of the work of Christ in bearing our transgression that we might be freed from it.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 5, 2015 6:22:12 GMT -5
How did people get saved for 2,000 years before William Irvine come on the scene Mr Review? Wonder why Xyz stirred you up so much. There is at least one person in their 80s on the board so why so surprised if xyz is getting on in years. Hope I'll still be around at that age. Do you not believe: "I am the way, the truth and the life" (another trio! ) They are the words of Jesus and I believe them & your tired old cliche about Irvine is meaningless to me. But I accept that it is something you love to give an airing as you judge appropriate . You are quite entitled to do that & express your opinion about it.... just as I am. Hope you will get an invite to xyz's next birthday party! "There is a sucker born every minute "! It might pay to be cautious, Review. How do you know xyz isn't a worker senior to you? Could account for a lot.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 5, 2015 11:17:02 GMT -5
Some participants on TMB don't comprehend their moral obligation to preserve confidentiality here. I noticed with interest that the mods were very quick to move my Syria post to the secular board, but not so quick to remove a post that breaches confidentiality. Perhaps it's because of the weekend. It's not right and I'm glad to see the xxx's are now there. I was trying to point out that singling out one worker for not teaching the trinity wasn't right because it was never taught that I ever heard.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 11:36:04 GMT -5
True. ? Hi nightshift, not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Patricia Roberts put together 2 books about Edward Cooney. One is a biography of his life and ministry, the other is selected letters, hymns and poems of Edward Cooney. There are few copies around, but can probably be purchased through Amazon for a horrendous price. Hi Elizabeth, I have read the biography of Edward Cooney, but have had trouble coming up with a copy of his writings. Everytime I fine a copy online, it's either already sold, or it's way too expensive to buy. I might just have to bite the bullet and pay a high price to get a copy. I personally think Cooney was a great preacher, and that he got shafted by the workers.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Sept 5, 2015 11:37:51 GMT -5
Workers and friends believe the children of God are those who are led by the spirit of God, and that revelation is progressive. The tighter you nail down doctrine, the more likely you'll have people following creed rather than being open to the Spirit's leading. If creed can be defined as; “a written belief or an opinion”, and a group writes down their position and interpretations of the bible, then they make a creed. Some denominations are against a creed. Some believe there is no creed in the bible, and scripture is ordained by god, anything else written outside the bible is creed, and man's opion. If you believe there is creed in the bible, and want to separate it out, then you use a red letter bible. The red letters are claimed to be what Jesus said, and the rest are man’s words. If you believe there is no creed in the bible, then you have no need for a red letter bible. Some groups think there is no creed in the bible, but write their own creed. Others think there is no creed in the bible, but are against a written creed. Some think, for example; Paul’s writing were just his own ideas, and not what Jesus would have said. I never understood why some denominations that do not permit creeds, yet don’t use red letter bibles. If you accept the entire bible contains no creeds, and yet do not permit creeds (ie none of Paul’s opinions are creed), then why is a certain point in time the dividing line? When does man’s written beliefs transform from not being a creed, to being a creed? Some denominations have their own bible study guides like the Catholic Commentary on Sacred Scripture. The 2x2 seems to often refer to www.gotquestions.org/ and the often repost letters from older workers, or refer to the hymns for direction. It looks to me like the 2x2 have an oral creed, and are now starting the beginnings of a written 2x2 creed, or perhaps it's just 2x2 case law.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2015 15:49:40 GMT -5
Did I hear review say dirty tricks? Coming from review of all people.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 16:19:10 GMT -5
Bring him on! He has a number of things to answer for. He is fortunate he did not have his resignation cancelled. Let him continue his gutter level antics breaking the forum rules and I have confidence Admin or Scott will do that. He sounds like someone who has gone from Christ to trinity cult, he's a buddy of Nathan, probably Irish, has a fondness for the shamrock. He has 'made his splash, will ride off into the horizon now, may morph into a new poster after a while & splash again . xyz is no buddy of mine, he and I have the same understanding of the Godhead, and the early workers before you review005. xyz, is NOT disappearing anytime soon, he has told us his testimony for many years about his experiences with the early workers. He had been companions to many early days senior workers and he's VERY SAD to hear what the workers today are preaching/teaching a half Jesus to the friends. No wonder it has stunt the friends spiritual growth for years stuck in the infant, young adults spiritual stage who Jesus is... and we can see the evidences of their writings on TMB.
Many workers and friends are still drinking milk of the word on who Jesus is... They are NOT able to digest the meat of the words on who Jesus really is God and Man.
Trinitarians can be rather patronizing about what they think they know. I have more appreciation for meek and lowly people, and it seems that Jesus did as well...
|
|
|
Post by whyisitso on Sept 5, 2015 16:30:43 GMT -5
It might pay to be cautious, Review. How do you know xyz isn't a worker senior to you? Could account for a lot. Bring him on! He has a number of things to answer for. He is fortunate he did not have his resignation cancelled. Let him continue his gutter level antics breaking the forum rules and I have confidence Admin or Scott will do that. He sounds like someone who has gone from Christ to trinity cult, he's a buddy of Nathan, probably Irish, has a fondness for the shamrock. He has 'made his splash, will ride off into the horizon now, may morph into a new poster after a while & splash again . Such grace and kindness. So lovely to see.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 17:27:14 GMT -5
i saw this and thought i would post it for some light relief
George Walker - Trinidad, CO, Nov. 12, 1944
Psalm 119. This Psalm is divided into divisions - eight verses in each division. We could think of this Psalm like from the ABC to the XYZ of our lives. Some of us are in the ABC's, others in the XYZ's of life, and some are in the KLM's. There is food in this Psalm for the child of God in every age, from the ABC's to the XYZ's. The last verse, would it not suggest that in the very last days of our life we could go astray like a lost sheep - led away.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 5, 2015 18:52:34 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying, but I think there is a better word to describe it.
I would suggest that they get exasperated about it all as they explain what they believe over and over again, meanwhile folks come back at them with beliefs that they don't hold.
Everyone is entitled to hold a belief and I have no problem with that, but in a discussion you would hope that the other person understands your belief so that they can argue intelligently.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2015 19:17:42 GMT -5
You might not believe in the Trinity, review but their are plenty of Christians around the world who enjoy a deep relationship with God and worship Him as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Think about it next time you baptise someone in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 20:51:43 GMT -5
I don't think there is a perfect way to explain or understand the trinity. We are all humans, and whether we believe in the trinity or not, I don't think any of us can rightly claim we fully understand God. I would personally be wary of anyone who did. Therefore, I can't claim to have the answers to every question I might be asked about my belief in the trinity. I'm ok with that.
I do believe that scripture teaches us that there is one God (something we can all agree on) and that He also exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To call that polytheistic is simply false and exhibits a total lack of understanding of what those of us who believe in the trinity actually believe.
There are multiple times when the word for God is translated from a plural noun or pronoun...the account of the creation is just one example. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all 3 referred to as God in scripture. See Romans 9:5, Hebrews 1:8, 1 John 5:20, Acts 5:3-4, Corinthians 3:16. And in scripture, all 3 are described as indwelling a believer. See John 14:16, 17 and 23. Each of them speak...obviously scripture is full of the Son's words, but also see Matthew 3:17 and Acts 13:2 for examples of the Father and Holy Spirit speaking. So they are distinctly 3 with different tasks...and there is subordination within the trinity...but still one God. Just because it is difficult to explain or understand does not mean it can't be true...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 5, 2015 21:22:17 GMT -5
It might pay to be cautious, Review. How do you know xyz isn't a worker senior to you? Could account for a lot. He's previously laughed at the prospect of any accountability towards Alan Richardson - just check his previous posts. Blessed are the peacemakers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2015 21:36:27 GMT -5
this is the end of this whole argument for me
1st John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 5, 2015 22:13:09 GMT -5
So by confessing Jesus, God dwells in you and vice versa and to think that I thought you didn't believe Jesus was God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 1:23:55 GMT -5
this is the end of this whole argument for me 1st John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
How about this verse I John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word/Christ, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.how about it? i see nothing wrong with it and i agree with what it says and we to shall be one with The Father, the Word and The Holy Spirit and we agree with the witness on the earth how could we not agree? i wonder do you disagree with 1st John 4:15?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2015 4:23:28 GMT -5
Blessed are the peacemakers. I've always loved it when people quote scripture that they think applies to other people. Generally those who do it would be best to apply it to their own situation first. Play nicely Ross.
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 6, 2015 5:55:05 GMT -5
So Virgo by confessing Jesus, God lives in you. One for the trinitiarians I would say.
Good advice from Ross I would say.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 6, 2015 13:51:18 GMT -5
Maybe it would be wise for those who are warring over WHO Jesus was to look more closely at the possibility IF Jesus was. I have always thought it interesting that Paul doesn't talk about a 'flesh and blood' Christ but rather a vision of the Christ. This is quite similar to the older teachings. Not that the Christ consciousness isn't something to esteem, but it takes the literalist quotient out of the equation and then it doesn't matter if Jesus is God the Son or Son of God. He is a concept and a rather good one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 14:09:48 GMT -5
Beth Appreciate your admission regarding a dogma orchestrated by a wannabe christian pagan Roman Emperor in the 4 th century. Have you read the history of it? Try wiping your mind clear of it and reading and understanding the NT as the inspired writers wrote it. Where is your triune God in Rev ch 4-22? God on the throne and a lamb, the Spirit with the bride saying "Come" to Jesus. There are literally dozens of other verses I could quote. I've done it with trinity folk, they suddenly become not so keen to discuss trinity anymore. But you please continue to stoutly defend & believe in what was orchestrated by the wannabe Christian Roman emperor. Some trinity folk come to understand that are getting a sweat up over terminology. Stick to the terminology that the NT used. There is no need for God the Son, stick to Son of God. No need for triune, trinity, God the Holy Spirit. The NT writers were inspired, the Roman Emperor wasn't! I did have my mind "wiped clean of it" for the first 27 years of my life when I attended meetings. What would you say to your fellow workers who do speak about Jesus being 100% and 100% God...Barry apparently being one of the more recent ones people are talking about? They are just one of those "trinity folk" who need their minds wiped clean of the pagan, wanna be Christian belief?
I believe Jesus is far more than just a man who managed to overcome sin and live a perfect life so that we could follow His example...if that's all He was, His death on the cross was not necessary or significant. He made several direct and indirect claims that the Pharisees and those around Him interpreted as Him making Himself equal to God. He said things like "I am the way, the truth, the life", "I am the light of the world", He forgave sins, claimed He alone could bring people into a relationship with God. In Matthew 5 He "corrects" or expounds upon what was in the 10 Commandments...putting His words on the same level as the words of God. He said He would be involved in the end of the world and in the judgment of the world several times in the Gospels as well. If you had just some man walking around the earth claiming those things, he would clearly be delusional. So obviously He was much more than just a human man.
And I think it VERY much matters how you see Jesus. What is the significance of His death on the cross if He was just a man? Only God could redeem sinners because only God is perfect...and only a man could redeem sinners because only a man could pay. 100% God, 100% man. As Alistair Begg says (a pastor I enjoy listening to and learning from) if Jesus was just a man on the cross He only died for one man: Barabbas. And if Jesus was not God, then God is removed from all human suffering...just sending His condolences through a representative, not really sharing in our sufferings. The only way Jesus can be saving and be significant is if He is God incarnate. That's the only way it makes sense to me...from anything I've ever read (in the Bible or otherwise) or heard.
You can quote verses that you accuse me of ignoring...I can quote verses that you ignore...I doubt this discussion is really going to go anywhere.
|
|