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Post by fixit on Sept 2, 2015 4:51:50 GMT -5
]You're interpreting scripture incorrectly, but I don't expect you to consider it with an open mind anytime soon. How do you determine what the correct interpretation of scripture is? Do you have any specific qualification in languages or theology, or have you had any special revelation, or do you have access to any specific expertise, that would make your interpretation of scripture more credible than anyone else's? If not, what is it that enables you to accurately identify inaccuracies in other believers' interpretations of scripture? Matt10 You have a point Matt10, but I'm not sure that you have a horse in this race. What do you think of Ross's claim that God called Jesus God? I meant to question Ross's interpretation rather than expound my own.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 11:24:45 GMT -5
How do you determine what the correct interpretation of scripture is? Do you have any specific qualification in languages or theology, or have you had any special revelation, or do you have access to any specific expertise, that would make your interpretation of scripture more credible than anyone else's? If not, what is it that enables you to accurately identify inaccuracies in other believers' interpretations of scripture? Matt10 You have a point Matt10, but I'm not sure that you have a horse in this race. What do you think of Ross's claim that God called Jesus God? I meant to question Ross's interpretation rather than expound my own. Good response fixit. (I rarely get to say that to a believer to whom I've posed a question!) As to what I think of Ross (allegedly) claiming that God called Jesus God, well, that's not something I would ever think about. For me discussions about what God is alleged to think or to have said are both futile and absurd. No one knows how much of what is written in the bible is actually true and there's nothing to suggest that the God of the bible is anything other than a fictional character in a book. Of course that doesn't mean that I don't believe that Jesus is a god. Matt10
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Sept 2, 2015 13:44:28 GMT -5
Have you went from flesh to Spirit? Have you walked thru the valley of the shadow of death? Just because you have not does not mean no has does it? Oh yew of little faith! What has the yew tree got to do with the journey ?another way of calling someone a sap?
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2015 3:33:25 GMT -5
I understand the point you made in your other reference but Hebrews 1:8 and the verses that surround it indicate that the Father is referring to Jesus as God - not just a god. Hebrews 1:8 is a direct lift from Psalm 45:6. Some commentary follows. biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/45-6.htm
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Post by fixit on Sept 3, 2015 5:31:40 GMT -5
Important to quote from a range of sources. The general consensus is that given the words around it the Greek is referencing the deity of Jesus. Agreed, it's important to quote from a range of sources. I'll give you a link that you might find helpful... Don't forget that the original Greek and Hebrew had no upper and lower case distinction. I think your argument that God is calling Jesus God is pretty weak. The Psalm being quoted was praising and referencing a human king 1000 years before Jesus was born. The Jewish people it was written for certainly never understood it to be referring to anyone on earth as God.
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Post by emy on Sept 3, 2015 15:19:10 GMT -5
I think your argument that God is calling Jesus God is pretty weak. The Psalm being quoted was praising and referencing a human king 1000 years before Jesus was born. The Jewish people it was written for certainly never understood it to be referring to anyone on earth as God. Not to mention these verses from Heb. 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,or 9 What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone. 10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation. 11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
NLT
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2015 15:49:14 GMT -5
Read: Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of man. That was while he was on earth. Then He went back to the glory he had with the father before he came to earth.
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Post by emy on Sept 3, 2015 17:36:31 GMT -5
Read: Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of man. That was while he was on earth. Then He went back to the glory he had with the father before he came to earth. I think the time frame in question is while he was on earth? Some believe he acted as God the Son while he had human form, and because he was God, it was not possible for him to sin. Though the Bible says he was tempted AS WE ARE but without sin.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 3, 2015 21:16:12 GMT -5
Nate - you are right. The challenge for those who reject that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is that they focus on 1 or 2 verses, often do not take into account the surrounding context and do not look at Scripture as a whole. To them Jesus ends up as some kind of lesser god. It is obviously sinful/blasphemous to worship some other god - God hates it - yet people who categorise Jesus as a lesser god worship Him. Maybe they are having an each way bet! A challenge for Ross who chooses to ignore 46 (not one or two) verses where the inspired NT writers used "The Son of God" and who never used 'trinity' God the Son. It's a very safe bet that he has no answer for this! Ross also continues to recognise that it is ok (preferable in fact) just use Bible language. trinity terms are not needed. Then does Ross understand that he is using terminology to seek to mock and deride others? Jesus Christ is divine he is the Son of God. I see no need and refuse to use confusing trinity language to express what is perfectly expressed in Biblical language. But I encourage Ross to just carry right on as he is. I do feel sorry for him though the way he shoots himself in the foot mocking those who choose to use Biblical terms only. "... does Ross understand that he is using terminology to seek to mock and deride others? "
That is a joke, coming from you!
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2015 22:16:55 GMT -5
Read: Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of man. That was while he was on earth. Then He went back to the glory he had with the father before he came to earth. I think the time frame in question is while he was on earth? Some believe he acted as God the Son while he had human form, and because he was God, it was not possible for him to sin. Though the Bible says he was tempted AS WE ARE but without sin. The Bible says that if someone says they have never sinned then they are a liar (heavy word I know and I don't like using it but that is what it says). So either Jesus sinned or he did not - only God cannot sin.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 0:07:16 GMT -5
...they have a fixed position and then try and massage Scripture into it to suit that position. But I've only read their answer on Isaiah 9:6 so far... Sounds like Trinitarians!
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 0:09:51 GMT -5
Agreed, it's important to quote from a range of sources. I'll give you a link that you might find helpful... Worthwhile looking at Isaiah 9 and the names given to Jesus - the promised Messiah. In particular the name Mighty God. You'll find here that the word for “God” is not Elohim, which as we've discussed may be used in a lower sense for those who are representatives of God, but El, which is never used by Isaiah, or any other Old Testament writer, in any lower sense than that of absolute Deity. Ross, I am really shocked to learn that you never acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, the Lamb of God. What I believe would be a really helpful study for you is to understand what the NT writers understood by the term 'Son of God'.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 0:10:15 GMT -5
Ross your hilarious sense of closet humour is unable to mask that you are unable to answer the question I ask of you? Why is Son of God used 46x by the inspired NT gospel writers and why do they never appeal of God the Holy Spirit, God the Son.... but yes God the Father? Where is your triune God in the Book of Revelation? It is the Lamb and God on the Throne. The Holy Spirit of God was on the earth when the book of Revelation written around 95 A.D. so he couldn't be in heaven with the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit responsibility was to continue on the work of Jesus on earth until Jesus comes again to rule on the earth 1000 yrs. The Father and the Lamb are in heaven. Once the Holy Spirit works has been accomplished here on the earth, He will join with the Father and the Son in heaven for ALL eternity.Where does Valiant Thor fit into all this?
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 0:35:45 GMT -5
Ross and Mary:
Could Jesus sin?
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 1:12:40 GMT -5
Yes Jesus could sin, he came into sinful flesh. He was tempted like all of us, he denied Satan and overcame the world. To do that he had to have been tempted and he had to have been able to sin! His faith was so strong, that God strengthened him in spirit to endure the sufferings of the flesh! Jesus could have sinned anytime. He was human. If he couldn't sin, there would be absolutely no point in Satan tempting him. Jesus suffered and denied Satan! He never sinned, he fought Satan and won by not sinning right up until his last breath!
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 1:21:54 GMT -5
How could the following verse make sense if Jesus couldn't sin? Temptation would mean nothing. He "suffered" temptation? Temptation would hardly be suffering if he could sin anyway. And how could his "suffering" of the temptation experience help sin-prone humans who are being tempted? To me this looks like denying that Jesus came in the flesh. I wonder if John was warning about Trinitarians when he wrote...
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 1:25:57 GMT -5
Yes Jesus could sin, he came into sinful flesh. He was tempted like all of us, he denied Satan and overcame the world. To do that he had to have been tempted and he had to have been able to sin! His faith was so strong, that God strengthened him in spirit to endure the sufferings of the flesh! Jesus could have sinned anytime. He was human. If he couldn't sin, there would be absolutely no point in Satan tempting him. Jesus suffered and denied Satan! He never sinned, he fought Satan and won by not sinning right up until his last breath! Maryhig, I appreciate your support on this. You articulated very well what most workers and friends believe.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 1:28:35 GMT -5
To me, this is crazy stuff: Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 1:34:18 GMT -5
Yes Jesus could sin, he came into sinful flesh. He was tempted like all of us, he denied Satan and overcame the world. To do that he had to have been tempted and he had to have been able to sin! His faith was so strong, that God strengthened him in spirit to endure the sufferings of the flesh! Jesus could have sinned anytime. He was human. If he couldn't sin, there would be absolutely no point in Satan tempting him. Jesus suffered and denied Satan! He never sinned, he fought Satan and won by not sinning right up until his last breath! Maryhig, I appreciate your support on this. You articulated very well what most workers and friends believe. I don't understand how anybody could think that Jesus couldn't sin, if he couldn't sin, what did he overcome? Why would he be tempted? And what would he be suffering? He had to go through what we do, and overcome Satan. And because he did that, he knows what we go through, and when we have faith, he gives us the strength to overcome. Hebrews 4 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 1:37:01 GMT -5
This really weak fixit - you must try to get out a little more.
I perceive two options here, either you have not listened to what Trinitarians have said or you have deliberately falsely attributed to them a belief which they do not hold.
Fair enough if you do not agree with their belief, but you do not need to act like this to justify your position.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 1:38:43 GMT -5
To me, this is crazy stuff: Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible.I agree, that's nonsense, Jesus could sin because he was in sinful flesh. He has now left the flesh and sin behind and had gone back to God. There is no sin in heaven.
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 1:43:42 GMT -5
Yes Jesus could sin, he came into sinful flesh. He was tempted like all of us, he denied Satan and overcame the world. To do that he had to have been tempted and he had to have been able to sin! His faith was so strong, that God strengthened him in spirit to endure the sufferings of the flesh! Jesus could have sinned anytime. He was human. If he couldn't sin, there would be absolutely no point in Satan tempting him. Jesus suffered and denied Satan! He never sinned, he fought Satan and won by not sinning right up until his last breath! Maryhig, I appreciate your support on this. You articulated very well what most workers and friends believe. My view is somewhat simpler. Of course he was tempted, but not in the sense of "I was tempted to do that" meaning I almost did but something held me back. Jesus was tempted (tried) by the devil - he did not yield in any fashion because he was divine. That's how I understand it.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 2:48:03 GMT -5
I agree, that's nonsense, Jesus could sin because he was in sinful flesh. He has now left the flesh and sin behind and had gone back to God. There is no sin in heaven. Jesus was completely without sin - he was completely perfect - he was completely divine. How else could anyone conquer sin on the cross at Calvary? Jesus was completely without sin and perfect, yes. And that's because he gave his heart to God. And had complete faith in him and denied the flesh and the world! God was with him and Jesus showed God through him, because he lived not to please himself. 'Not my will" he said "but thy will be done". And with the strength of God, given to him by the father because of his complete love for God, he was able to overcome Satan. It says in the bible, that God sent an angel to strengthen him. So Jesus needed Gods help. He Also said, without the father, I can do nothing. Jesus prayed, and went to God for everything, and God gave him the strength to overcome sin. Romans 8 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 3:10:14 GMT -5
Jesus was completely without sin and perfect, yes. And that's because he gave his heart to God. And had complete faith in him and denied the flesh and the world! God was with him and Jesus showed God through him, because he lived not to please himself. 'Not my will" he said "but thy will be done". And with the strength of God, given to him by the father because of his complete love for God, he was able to overcome Satan. It says in the bible, that God sent an angel to strengthen him. So Jesus needed Gods help. He Also said, without the father, I can do nothing. Jesus prayed, and went to God for everything, and God gave him the strength to overcome sin. Romans 8 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit Where do you read that Jesus was perfect and without sin because He gave his heart to God? It sounds like you believe that when Jesus was born he was sinful but then overcame sin because He gave His heart to God? John 8:58, 59 - Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. The Bible is clear that Jesus was begotten of the Father (not created) and is perfect and sinless from everlasting to everlasting. Romans 8 - look at the word "likeness....". It's a critical word. Jesus was born into sinful flesh, and he felt all the temptation that we feel. Don't you believe that Jesus needed God to help him?
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Post by Mary on Sept 4, 2015 3:10:39 GMT -5
Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was a God. Do you believe he was a god , fixit?
In John 1 their Bible says "In the beginning was the word and the word was a God". They interpret logos as a God. Remember they also believe their church is the truth and all others are wrong.
Hebrew 1:8 is clearly talking about Jesus. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psalm 45: is also a type of Christ and ends. 17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
Do you not feel that God feels what we feel, Maryhig?
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 3:11:56 GMT -5
Jesus was completely without sin and perfect, yes. And that's because he gave his heart to God. And had complete faith in him and denied the flesh and the world! God was with him and Jesus showed God through him, because he lived not to please himself. 'Not my will" he said "but thy will be done". And with the strength of God, given to him by the father because of his complete love for God, he was able to overcome Satan. It says in the bible, that God sent an angel to strengthen him. So Jesus needed Gods help. He Also said, without the father, I can do nothing. Jesus prayed, and went to God for everything, and God gave him the strength to overcome sin. Romans 8 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit Where do you read that Jesus was perfect and without sin because He gave his heart to God? It sounds like you believe that when Jesus was born he was sinful but then overcame sin because He gave His heart to God? John 8:58, 59 - Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. The Bible is clear that Jesus was begotten of the Father (not created) and is perfect and sinless from everlasting to everlasting. Romans 8 - look at the word "likeness....". It's a critical word. How about Hebrews 4? For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 3:27:48 GMT -5
Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus was a God. Do you believe he was a god , fixit? In John 1 their Bible says "In the beginning was the word and the word was a God". They interpret logos as a God. Remember they also believe their church is the truth and all others are wrong. Hebrew 1:8 is clearly talking about Jesus. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Psalm 45: is also a type of Christ and ends. 17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever. Do you not feel that God feels what we feel, Maryhig? Mary, I don't believe Jesus is God, no. He said I go to my father and your father. My God and your God. He also said the father is greater than I. God cannot be tempted. Jesus was tempted on all points. And he overcame Satan. If Jesus couldn't have sinned. Then there was no reason for him to be tempted and he wouldn't have had to overcome the world. The world had nothing in Jesus, because his heart belonged to God. He was in the complete image of God. That's why he was called Emmanuel. Because we could see God fully through him and there was no sin in him, he was full of love. He lived not to please himself. He lived to please his father. And we are to deny the flesh and follow him. And if we do this, by the grace of God, Christ will strengthen us against Satan and help us overcome our sins.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 4:08:13 GMT -5
Jesus was born into sinful flesh, and he felt all the temptation that we feel. Don't you believe that Jesus needed God to help him? Wow - so you believe Jesus was sinful when he was born....is this what you are saying? The Father and Son were in perfect relationship - yes the Father sent the Son and supported and helped him completely. The Son didn't need help in the sense that he needed the Father to forgive sins of other people for him etc - he could do this completely himself. He did the Father's will completely and perfectly. being born into sinful flesh didn't make Him sinful Mary H did not say that she believed Jesus was sinful when he was born, good idea if you actually read what is written
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