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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 4:19:10 GMT -5
Jesus was born into sinful flesh, and he felt all the temptation that we feel. Don't you believe that Jesus needed God to help him? Wow - so you believe Jesus was sinful when he was born....is this what you are saying? The Father and Son were in perfect relationship - yes the Father sent the Son and supported and helped him completely. The Son didn't need help in the sense that he needed the Father to forgive sins of other people for him etc - he could do this completely himself. He did the Father's will completely and perfectly. Wow? You can be very sarcastic sometimes Ross. No I said he was born into sinful flesh, but he didn't sin. Don't you know that that means and your belong to God?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 4:25:23 GMT -5
Jesus was the Son of God. He was the 2nd Adam; Adam was alsowas called the Son of God ( see Luke 3:38.) Neither Jesus nor Adam had earthly fathers. God was their Father. Jesus stood in the same position as Adam in that he didn't have a fallen human nature. Nor did wither have an unfallen nature. They both had a 'neutral' nature. They had to decide if they were going to obey the devil or God. Adam failed, but Jesus chose correctly. All humans are born "in Adam" ....literally. We were all present (because of DNA) when Adam fell. However, Jesus was not "in Adam" because he had no earthly father. Sin is passed from father to child, not from mother to child (another topic perhaps). Thus, Jesus didn't inherit Adam's sin nature. You and I are born slaves to sin. Jesus wasn't. Yet, like Adam he could be tempted. But since he wasn't born into Adam's curse, he (like Adam) had the potential to overcome temptation. No other human, other than Adam or Jesus, ever stood in this position of neutrality. 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 sums it all up very well. It clearly states that only a MAN could die for the sins of the world. God cannot die. God cannot be tempted. God is not a man, nor is He the Son of Man (as Jesus claimed to be ): see Numbers 23:19. The idea that God had to die for our sins is alien to the bible and to common sense.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 4:29:43 GMT -5
Jesus was born into sinful flesh, and he felt all the temptation that we feel. Don't you believe that Jesus needed God to help him? Wow - so you believe Jesus was sinful when he was born....is this what you are saying? The Father and Son were in perfect relationship - yes the Father sent the Son and supported and helped him completely. The Son didn't need help in the sense that he needed the Father to forgive sins of other people for him etc - he could do this completely himself. He did the Father's will completely and perfectly. I'm talking about God strengthening him and helping him. And him saying the that without the father I he could do nothing. Without God, Jesus could do nothing Ross. Nothing. He said so himself. John 5 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. What does this mean?
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 4:37:45 GMT -5
Wow? You can be very sarcastic sometimes Ross. No I said he was born into sinful flesh, bit he didn't sin. Don't you know that that means and your belong to God? Maybe it's Aussie humour but definitely not sarcastic. It's a wow - do you really believe that! You said in an earlier post that Jesus was perfect and sinless because He gave His heart to God. When did he do this? Before He came to earth. On earth? It's not clear and I'm interested in what you believe... I mean his heart belonged to God, he wasn't interested in anything in this world nothing that Satan had to offer him. None of his kingdoms and none of his worldly pleasures. His whole heart and life was for the father and his heart belonged to him. They are at one, he loved God fully with all his mind, heart, soul and strength. And Satan couldn't penetrate his heart. He had no place in him. And Jesus never sinned. The sinful flesh which he was in, had no power over him. Because he chose God not Satan.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 4:45:08 GMT -5
Wow - so you believe Jesus was sinful when he was born....is this what you are saying? The Father and Son were in perfect relationship - yes the Father sent the Son and supported and helped him completely. The Son didn't need help in the sense that he needed the Father to forgive sins of other people for him etc - he could do this completely himself. He did the Father's will completely and perfectly. I'm talking about God strengthening him and helping him. And him saying the that without the father I he could do nothing. Without God, Jesus could do nothing Ross. Nothing. He said so himself. John 5 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. What does this mean? You're right. Jesus had his own will. That doesn't mean his will was contrary to the Father's. Nor does it mean his will was always in line with the Father's. Jesus did nothing on his own. He relied on the Father. If he hadn't done so, he could have sinned. Those who say he couldn't have sinned are missing a big piece of the Gospel story. They have a Savior who didn't have to overcome at all. They have a Savior who made a pretense at overcoming temptation and the devil. Our Savior truly was tried and could have sinned. But he didn't! Their Savior is like a starving man in a prison cell, and food is placed outside his reach on the other side of the bars, and God says "Don't touch that delicious food!" and the starving man is tempted but complies to wishes of God. As if he had a choice! To say that Jesus could NOT have sinned is contrary to the Bible. Now, I'm not saying anyone is unsaved that disagrees with me. Your salvation is between you and God. But I am saying that you don't have all of you pieces to the puzzle and you might want to sweep you floor and find the missing pieces so you can see the whole picture.
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 4:56:41 GMT -5
Ross we've appreciated your 'sense of humour' as you've sought to divert attention away from the simple Bible questions your trinity mind is struggling to answer Firstly "I read in Rev chapters 4-22 of God on the throne and of the Lamb. But NOTHING of your triune god. Secondly Perhaps you can explain why the inspired NT writers mentioned the Son of God 46x (yes 46x! )and mentioned God the Father but NEVER God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. This is just the first a number of Scriptures that I have found that 'trinity' has no answers for. I'll give you the rest after you attempt to scripturally answer the two I have asked above. You post in such a way that gives the impression that you have 'all the answers' and that workers are heretics that know nothing , so step up now & show us the answers..... to these simple basic Scriptural Truths. Here another question. If the Christ is God the son, why didn't God reveal that to Peter? Why didn't Peter say, you are the Christ, God the son? Because he said correctly what was revealed to him by the father. You are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus said blessed are you Simon bargona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you, but my father which is in heaven.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:02:03 GMT -5
It says in the bible, that God sent an angel to strengthen him. So Jesus needed Gods help. He Also said, without the father, I can do nothing. Jesus prayed, and went to God for everything, and God gave him the strength to overcome sin. Good point. Why would God the Father send an angel to strengthen God the Son? Jesus pretended to be human, when he was in fact God? He pretended to be tempted of the devil, knowing that he couldn't sin no matter what? The devil pretended to tempt Jesus, knowing that Jesus was God and couldn't sin anyway? It's a pretty hard sell.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:20:03 GMT -5
Jesus didn't have to overcome a human nature or his own sinfulness. If you are sinless and perfect he didn't have to overcome anything to do with himself! Like others, I think you're missing an important piece of the gospel. What did Jesus mean when he said he overcome the world?
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:22:22 GMT -5
I mean his heart belonged to God, he wasn't interested in anything in this world nothing that Satan had to offer him. None of his kingdoms and none of his worldly pleasures. His whole heart and life was for the father and his heart belonged to him. They are at one, he loved God fully with all his mind, heart, soul and strength. And Satan couldn't penetrate his heart. He had no place in him. And Jesus never sinned. The sinful flesh which he was in, had no power over him. Because he chose God not Satan. When did he choose God? You seem to be saying that at some point - either before He came to earth or on earth - that He chose God like we would choose God? Jesus chose God every day, every hour, every minute. When do you choose God?
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:32:34 GMT -5
To me, this is crazy stuff: Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible.Somehow, I think we've been around this mulberry bush before. I'm looking forward to when the Son of Man returns - in His glorified body. (note the word body) Yeah...we probably have but it's a pretty important part of Trinitarian theology. Trinitarians have made the earthly Jesus of Nazareth into God, and the heavenly son of God they've made human. To me its ridiculous that the unchanging God was forever changed at the incarnation to include a human person of the trinity in heaven. My understanding is that heaven is a spiritual realm, there is no flesh there at all. God is spirit, yet you believe "God the Son" is human in heaven? I can't get my head around that!
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Post by maryhig on Sept 4, 2015 5:34:25 GMT -5
Jesus chose God every day, every hour, every minute. When do you choose God? You're being clever with words. We all chose God at some point in our lives. The question stands for Maryhig - when did Jesus make his choice or decision for God? Always, he's always chosen God My family have come round, I'm not being ignorant.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 5:35:58 GMT -5
You're right. Jesus had his own will. That doesn't mean his will was contrary to the Father's. Nor does it mean his will was always in line with the Father's. Jesus did nothing on his own. He relied on the Father. If he hadn't done so, he could have sinned. Those who say he couldn't have sinned are missing a big piece of the Gospel story. They have a Savior who didn't have to overcome at all. They have a Savior who made a pretense at overcoming temptation and the devil. Our Savior truly was tried and could have sinned. But he didn't! Their Savior is like a starving man in a prison cell, and food is placed outside his reach on the other side of the bars, and God says "Don't touch that delicious food!" and the starving man is tempted but complies to wishes of God. As if he had a choice! To say that Jesus could NOT have sinned is contrary to the Bible. Now, I'm not saying anyone is unsaved that disagrees with me. Your salvation is between you and God. But I am saying that you don't have all of you pieces to the puzzle and you might want to sweep you floor and find the missing pieces so you can see the whole picture. It's actually not contrary to the Bible at all - please show us where it is. I don't understand your example at all. Jesus didn't have to overcome a human nature or his own sinfulness. If you are sinless and perfect he didn't have to overcome anything to do with himself! He overcame Satan, sin and death on behalf of ALL MANKIND FOREVER - for those put their trust in Him. That's a far bigger and more powerful Saviour than a gospel which teaches that Jesus lived a perfect life and overcome and was faithful to the end - which is not a saving gospel at all. Ross, it is contrary to the bible. If you don't understand the illustration I don't know what to say. But, let me say this: you just admitted that we are correct when you said "He overcame Satan, sin and death...." That's what we're claiming. If he was equal to Jehovah, overcoming is no feat at all. It's meaningless. Regarding your statement "....a gospel that teaches that Jesus lived a perfect life and overcame and was faithful to the end- which is not a saving gospel at all. " ??!!!!! It's my understanding that THAT IS THE GOSPEL. If that's not the gospel, I don't know what is! The Savior was tempted "in every way that we are. But without sin. Clearly trinitarian a look at the temptation as an act (as in a play) and not as something real (thus the prison illustration that somehow escaped you.)
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:38:53 GMT -5
You're being clever with words. We all chose God at some point in our lives. The question stands for Maryhig - when did Jesus make his choice or decision for God? Always, he's always chosen God My family have come round, I'm not being ignorant. Take care of your family Maryhig. TMB will wait.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 5:43:05 GMT -5
Jesus chose God every day, every hour, every minute. When do you choose God? You're being clever with words. We all chose God at some point in our lives. The question stands for Maryhig - when did Jesus make his choice or decision for God? I'll answer your question Ross. Jesus chose to follow God many times in his life. Just a few examples: 1) when he was baptized by John - Nohn 3:15, "Permit it now, for it becomes US (including Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness." 2) Matthew 4:1-11 when Jesus is truly tempted (the bible says God cannot be tempted with evil) and Jesus overcomes temptation with the word of God. 3) in the garden when Jesus submitted his will to God and willingly chose to go to Calvary..
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:53:58 GMT -5
Like others, I think you're missing an important piece of the gospel. What did Jesus mean when he said he overcome the world? Of course, he overcame the world, flesh and devil - not His own flesh or his own worldiness - he was completely without sin - no sin nature. He came to solve sin for the world and be our eternal High Priest - for all mankind, past, present and future. The 2x2 version of Jesus appears to be much, much smaller and earthly than the everlasting Almighty Son of God that He was and is. If your Jesus couldn't sin, if he was God, then what was so special about him not sinning when he was tempted? My Jesus was a man who overcame in spite of a sin-prone human nature, and in spite of severe temptation and suffering. I can relate to a human Jesus, a man who kept his own human passions in subjection to the will of his Father in Heaven. I'm reminded again of Goodhand Pattison's testimony of William Irvine's message...
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 5:55:18 GMT -5
You're being clever with words. We all chose God at some point in our lives. The question stands for Maryhig - when did Jesus make his choice or decision for God? I'll answer your question Ross. Jesus chose to follow God many times in his life. Just a few examples: 1) when he was baptized by John - Nohn 3:15, "Permit it now, for it becomes US (including Jesus) to fulfill all righteousness." 2) Matthew 4:1-11 when Jesus is truly tempted (the bible says God cannot be tempted with evil) and Jesus overcomes temptation with the word of God. 3) in the garden when Jesus submitted his will to God and willingly chose to go to Calvary.. ...and when he chose to be about his Father's business as a 12 year old.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 5:57:17 GMT -5
Like others, I think you're missing an important piece of the gospel. What did Jesus mean when he said he overcome the world? Of course, he overcame the world, flesh and devil - not His own flesh or his own worldiness - he was completely without sin - no sin nature. He came to solve sin for the world and be our eternal High Priest - for all mankind, past, present and future. The 2x2 version of Jesus appears to be much, much smaller and earthly than the everlasting Almighty Son of God that He was and is. I disagree, to a point. Yes, he overcame all these things for us. But what did he overcome? He overcame temptation. Hebrews 2:10 says "For it became Him (God) for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Since when does God need to be perfected? Then in verse18 it explains what his suffering was: For because he himself suffered when tempted, he is able to succor those who are being tempted." If he didn't have the potential to sin, this is all meaningless.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 6:01:53 GMT -5
Of course, he overcame the world, flesh and devil - not His own flesh or his own worldiness - he was completely without sin - no sin nature. He came to solve sin for the world and be our eternal High Priest - for all mankind, past, present and future. The 2x2 version of Jesus appears to be much, much smaller and earthly than the everlasting Almighty Son of God that He was and is. I disagree, to a point. Yes, he overcame all these things for us. But what did he overcome? He overcame temptation. Hebrews 2:10 says "For it became Him (God) for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Since when does God need to be perfected? Then in verse18 it explains what his suffering was: For because he himself suffered when tempted, he is able to succor those who are being tempted." If he didn't have the potential to sin, this is all meaningless. Let me add this: you and other trinitarian a say that Jesus was verge red from eternity. The bible says he had to "learn obedience" and that he had to be "perfected. " as the second Adam this makes sense. If he was God, it makes no sense at all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 6:05:55 GMT -5
Of course, he overcame the world, flesh and devil - not His own flesh or his own worldiness - he was completely without sin - no sin nature. He came to solve sin for the world and be our eternal High Priest - for all mankind, past, present and future. The 2x2 version of Jesus appears to be much, much smaller and earthly than the everlasting Almighty Son of God that He was and is. If your Jesus couldn't sin, if he was God, then what was so special about him not sinning when he was tempted? My Jesus was a man who overcame in spite of a sin-prone human nature, and in spite of severe temptation and suffering. I can relate to a human Jesus, a man who kept his own human passions in subjection to the will of his Father in Heaven. I'm reminded again of Goodhand Pattison's testimony of William Irvine's message... Irvine and Cooney's were great preachers! Thanks for sharing this from Pattison. I wish I had some of Cooney's writings.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 6:18:32 GMT -5
If your Jesus couldn't sin, if he was God, then what was so special about him not sinning when he was tempted? My Jesus was a man who overcame in spite of a sin-prone human nature, and in spite of severe temptation and suffering. I can relate to a human Jesus, a man who kept his own human passions in subjection to the will of his Father in Heaven. I'm reminded again of Goodhand Pattison's testimony of William Irvine's message... Irvine and Cooney's were great preachers! Thanks for sharing this from Pattison. I wish I had some of Cooney's writings. You do - in Hymns Old & New.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 6:33:52 GMT -5
Irvine and Cooney's were great preachers! Thanks for sharing this from Pattison. I wish I had some of Cooney's writings. You do - in Hymns Old & New. True. ?
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Post by fred on Sept 4, 2015 7:02:32 GMT -5
You will agree I'm sure that the point of the 'common man' preaching was not at all that Jesus was just an ordinary man, but rather that he related to the common man, rather than the 'gentleman Jesus' claimed by the clergy who considered themselves a cut above the ordinary man.
This idea was welcomed by the ordinary man as they could now claim Jesus for themselves rather than having to 'kowtow' to the clergy.
Now my Jesus was fully man yet fully divine - I believe Satan thought he could cause Jesus to fail because of his 'man' nature.
My Jesus was able to forgive sin, he was able to cast out devils and heal people, he was able to bring people back to life, he welcomed worship of himself, and even raise himself from the dead.
He was far, far more than just a man who obeyed the Father.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 7:17:31 GMT -5
Here another question. If the Christ is God the son, why didn't God reveal that to Peter? Why didn't Peter say, you are the Christ, God the son? Because he said correctly what was revealed to him by the father. You are the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus said blessed are you Simon bargona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto you, but my father which is in heaven. The phrase the Son of God means this...Ron Rhodes wrote: The phrase "Son of God." Ancient Semitics and Orientals used the phrase "Son of" to indicate likeness or sameness of nature and equality of being. When Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, His Jewish contemporaries fully understood that He was making a claimed to be God. The Gospels reveal that Christ was worshiped (Greek: proskuneo, the same Greek word used of worshiping the Father) as God many times. Jesus always accepted such worship from Thomas (John 20:28), the angels (Heb. 1:6), the wise men (Matt. 2:11), a leper (Matt. 8:2), a ruler (Matt. 9:18), a blind man (John 9:23), Mary Magdalene, (Matt. 28:9), and the disciples (Matt. 28:17). Jesus NEVER sought to correct His followers or set them straight when they bowed down and worshiped Him. Indeed, Jesus considered such worship as perfectly appropriate. Of course, we wouldn't expect Jesus to try to correct people (according to Exodus 34:14) in worshiping Him if He was TRULY God (the Son) in the flesh, as Scripture clearly indicates. No, Nathan. The word worship used for Jesus did not equate worship, as if he was God. Please see this link: www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/proskuneo.html
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xyz
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Post by xyz on Sept 4, 2015 12:39:05 GMT -5
Ridiculous. Obviously xxxxxxx and a large number of current workers do not believe in God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
However this was not always so. In about 1986 or so, Carson Cowan spoke at convention what many of us believed, and what George Walker had taught him that God is like a shamrock, Father Son and Holy Ghost, one yet three. Jack Carroll over on the West Coast also believed and taught it. Jim Jardine as well, and aa host of early workers.
Accepted, these worker 'youngins" do not all agree with this, making them the ones now preaching a new Gospel and ignorant of the former once taught and believed world wide.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 4, 2015 14:47:04 GMT -5
Ridiculous. Obviously xxxxxxx. and a large number of current workers do not believe in God consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However this was not always so. In about 1986 or so, Carson Cowan spoke at convention what many of us believed, and what George Walker had taught him that God is like a shamrock, Father Son and Holy Ghost, one yet three. Jack Carroll over on the West Coast also believed and taught it. Jim Jardine as well, and aa host of early workers. Accepted, these worker 'youngins" do not all agree with this, making them the ones now preaching a new Gospel and ignorant of the former once taught and believed world wide. Mr. Oldtimer xyz (written respectfully): Do you have any thoughts or knowledge about when and how the change in this belief took place? I know that early worker Tom Lyness taught it was impossible for Jesus to sin bcs he was divine. Interested to hear your input. CK
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 15:34:27 GMT -5
You do - in Hymns Old & New. True. ?
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xyz
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Post by xyz on Sept 4, 2015 15:38:15 GMT -5
Young lady, (written respectfully also!) having visited with Tom Lynes, Jim and Nichol Jardine, Willie Weir, Jack Carroll, Joe Burriage, Sam Charlton, Leo S. Charlie Krub, Charlie Mitchel, Robert Darling, Anderson, and a host of others male and female sitting in their "mission meetings" (words not used in the Bible), they all believed and preached in God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit/(Ghost) Who knows when and where this "new" Gospel began to creep in?
It is the "Jonny come lately(s)" who now proclaim otherwise from all appearances. John S. from Texas preached them as One. Another worker now out also preached them as One, as did Sylvester before becoming senile. One current American worker youngin in Mexico recently (past year or two) had to quit corresponding with his family over the matter as they cannot get the concept of God as anyone other than "The Father" into their heads. It is not necessary to use the word Triune" to explain the Concept of God as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In the shamrock example They are not multiples but one. No, the Bible does not use the shamrock as an example, rather the need of being Baptized in the Name (not names) of of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As one ages, they realize how little such an argument really means. They are glad for that which has been preached of God from any source that has been proven true to themselves.
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Post by fixit on Sept 4, 2015 18:25:39 GMT -5
Yeah...we probably have but it's a pretty important part of Trinitarian theology. Trinitarians have made the earthly Jesus of Nazareth into God, and the heavenly son of God they've made human. To me its ridiculous that the unchanging God was forever changed at the incarnation to include a human person of the trinity in heaven. My understanding is that heaven is a spiritual realm, there is no flesh there at all. God is spirit, yet you believe "God the Son" is human in heaven? I can't get my head around that! There is a world of difference between a human body and a human nature. Somehow I don't think the Apostles and early Christians were called Trinitarians. But they clearly knew who Jesus was and Jesus also knew who He was. You've lost me. Do you think Jesus: 1. Was on Earth with a human body, but not a human nature? 2. Is in heaven with a human body, but not a human nature?
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