|
Post by snow on Sept 6, 2015 14:43:16 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it.
I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live.
Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2015 15:03:18 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. Good post Snow. This is how it seems to me: Non-trinitarians feel the cross is robbed of its power if Jesus is God. Trinitarians feel the cross is robbed of its power if Jesus is not God.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 19:42:39 GMT -5
How do you define "divine"? Because if you believe in 2 divine beings (the Father and the Son) and worship them both...that makes you a polytheist...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 19:55:23 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. But that's the problem...while there is nothing wrong with a human aspiring to live like Jesus and be as sin-free as possible, no one CAN be sinless. It might cause some people to do some pretty great things, but they are still human and we ALL screw up. And because God is holy, ANY sin separates us from Him.
It's not fair to say that being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better...if you're saved by grace, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE not to be better. Because you have the Holy Spirit in you. Anyone that thinks you can be saved and not be changed is wrong.
The only reason He was able to be sinless was because He was divine. And He did suffer on the cross even tho' He was fully divine because He was also fully human. He was not some mixture, half human half God...He was 100% God and 100% human. It's not really a concept that makes sense to us as humans. But if I understood everything about God in my own frail, human mind then He would be a pretty small God. And Jesus wasn't sinless on the cross...He became sin on the cross. That's why He said "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me?" He felt the wrath of God for sin...sins He had never committed.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 20:07:45 GMT -5
I did have my mind "wiped clean of it" for the first 27 years of my life when I attended meetings. What would you say to your fellow workers who do speak about Jesus being 100% and 100% God...Barry apparently being one of the more recent ones people are talking about? They are just one of those "trinity folk" who need their minds wiped clean of the pagan, wanna be Christian belief?
I believe Jesus is far more than just a man who managed to overcome sin and live a perfect life so that we could follow His example...if that's all He was, His death on the cross was not necessary or significant. He made several direct and indirect claims that the Pharisees and those around Him interpreted as Him making Himself equal to God. He said things like "I am the way, the truth, the life", "I am the light of the world", He forgave sins, claimed He alone could bring people into a relationship with God. In Matthew 5 He "corrects" or expounds upon what was in the 10 Commandments...putting His words on the same level as the words of God. He said He would be involved in the end of the world and in the judgment of the world several times in the Gospels as well. If you had just some man walking around the earth claiming those things, he would clearly be delusional. So obviously He was much more than just a human man.
And I think it VERY much matters how you see Jesus. What is the significance of His death on the cross if He was just a man? Only God could redeem sinners because only God is perfect...and only a man could redeem sinners because only a man could pay. 100% God, 100% man. As Alistair Begg says (a pastor I enjoy listening to and learning from) if Jesus was just a man on the cross He only died for one man: Barabbas. And if Jesus was not God, then God is removed from all human suffering...just sending His condolences through a representative, not really sharing in our sufferings. The only way Jesus can be saving and be significant is if He is God incarnate. That's the only way it makes sense to me...from anything I've ever read (in the Bible or otherwise) or heard.
You can quote verses that you accuse me of ignoring...I can quote verses that you ignore...I doubt this discussion is really going to go anywhere.
Beth - Review005 has posted before that he believes Jesus is fully man and fully God. So I wouldn't take too much notice of him ranting about people who say that the Scripture (not some Roman Emperor) says that Jesus, the Son of God, is also God. Perhaps he wants to redact his earlier post? His beliefs make about as much sense to me as I'm sure mine do to him...I guess we'll have to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2015 20:54:48 GMT -5
How do you define "divine"? Because if you believe in 2 divine beings (the Father and the Son) and worship them both...that makes you a polytheist... How do you define the Hebrew Elohim? Packaging your three gods into an incomprehensible trinity theory doesn't exempt you from accusations of polytheism.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2015 20:56:30 GMT -5
Good post Snow. This is how it seems to me: Non-trinitarians feel the cross is robbed of its power if Jesus is God. Trinitarians feel the cross is robbed of its power if Jesus is not God. Interesting you believe that Jesus was just a human being and not divine in any way, shape or form. Apparently no different than the rest of us - he became perfect in God's eyes to be an example to others as to how to live. He started out a sinner but did the will of God and became perfect. I suspect you should stop worrying about the whole Trinity/non-Trinity thing as I don't think this is really where your issue lies. It seems that you should focus more on the divinity of Jesus - the Trinity is a diversion. You seem to know more about what I believe than I do myself.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Sept 6, 2015 21:39:54 GMT -5
I too have read quite a few of the really complex explanations - I see them as man's feeble attempt to explain something belonging to heaven.
I prefer to rest on the 3 leaf shamrock explanation used by early workers, as I believe going further to try and explain how the relationship works is only theorising.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 6, 2015 22:13:48 GMT -5
You seem to know more about what I believe than I do myself. Only by what you write and what you agree with We'll catch up for a coffee one day and talk about it I'm sure - hopefully on this earth - but if not, in the future! I doubt that we'd ever agree on this one, but we can agree to differ. Let me know when you're passing by and we'll make the coffee catch up happen!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 1:19:49 GMT -5
So Virgo by confessing Jesus, God lives in you. One for the trinitiarians I would say. Good advice from Ross I would say. you might say but you may also be wrong
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 1:31:13 GMT -5
how about it? i see nothing wrong with it and i agree with what it says and we to shall be one with The Father, the Word and The Holy Spirit and we agree with the witness on the earth how could we not agree? i wonder do you disagree with 1st John 4:15? I agree with I John 4:15 .... However Do you agree Godhead is the Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit and these THREE are in one agreement before heavens, the universe, billions of stars, planets, galaxies and earth were created in John 5:7-8?I agree with what the verse says For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one, but i wonder about the rest of what you posted before heavens, the universe, billions of stars, planets, galaxies and earth were created in John 5:7-8? which i don't see in that verse these things do not equate to the use of the non Bible use of the trinity there is far more to this than man made words such as trinity which man uses to try and understand something which God has hidden to a degree i do not agree with the use of the word trinity it is a simple and plain as that satan in on the side line laughing
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 7, 2015 10:51:26 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. But that's the problem...while there is nothing wrong with a human aspiring to live like Jesus and be as sin-free as possible, no one CAN be sinless. It might cause some people to do some pretty great things, but they are still human and we ALL screw up. And because God is holy, ANY sin separates us from Him.
It's not fair to say that being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better...if you're saved by grace, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE not to be better. Because you have the Holy Spirit in you. Anyone that thinks you can be saved and not be changed is wrong.
The only reason He was able to be sinless was because He was divine. And He did suffer on the cross even tho' He was fully divine because He was also fully human. He was not some mixture, half human half God...He was 100% God and 100% human. It's not really a concept that makes sense to us as humans. But if I understood everything about God in my own frail, human mind then He would be a pretty small God. And Jesus wasn't sinless on the cross...He became sin on the cross. That's why He said "My God, My God why has thou forsaken me?" He felt the wrath of God for sin...sins He had never committed.
Actually, how do you know that for sure? You have been taught that no one can be as good as Jesus. It's in the story. We don't hear the whole story in the bible because not all the gospels that were written about him are in the bible. Just what the RCC deemed appropriate to be in the bible. The Gnostic Christians wrote a lot of gospels too and the RCC deemed them to be heretics and destroyed their writings for the most part. Until the Nag Hammadi Library was found we didn't get to read much of what was written by other Christian groups. It's an eye opener for sure. It isn't much wonder the RCC wanted to eradicate their writings. The Gnostics believed the RCC fed their people milk and not meat. We hear from Nathan that the 2x2's get fed milk, not meat because they don't believe in the Trinity. I find that ironic and amusing actually knowing the history of what the Gnostics thought of traditional Christianity which is what survived to be practiced today. How do you know that the whole message of Jesus is follow me, do what I do and you will be like me? That wasn't what the RCC wanted anyone to believe because their priests would have been out of a job and the reason they didn't like Gnostic teachings was because there was no hierarchy like in the RCC. Everyone was considered equal. I don't think Jesus was ever 'perfect' and in some of the other gospels he did have some things that made him seem more human. He just was more enlightened than the average person and this got exaggerated to make him into something he really wasn't. I know this line of thought will be rejected by most people because you have had it plugged into your heads forever that you are sinners and you could never be good enough. I think that's sadly mistaken but it is what's been taught. Maybe you don't need to be perfect or sinless, just willing?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 11:03:42 GMT -5
this is the end of this whole argument for me 1st John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
How about this verse I John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word/Christ, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.That verse is disputed. It's not in the earliest manuscripts of the NT.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 11:10:49 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. snow, this was a very good post. Thank you. One point: Theologians make a distinction between the words Eternal and Everlasting. To them, only God is Eternal. Humans are everlasting (their souls). To be eternal means you have no beginning and no end; to be Eternal means you had a beginning but will never have an end.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Sept 7, 2015 12:10:46 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. snow, this was a very good post. Thank you. One point: Theologians make a distinction between the words Eternal and Everlasting. To them, only God is Eternal. Humans are everlasting (their souls). To be eternal means you have no beginning and no end; to be Eternal means you had a beginning but will never have an end. The concept of 'Eternal' is one that I personally can't even comprehend.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 7, 2015 14:01:33 GMT -5
Personally, I think the belief that Jesus is 100% human and yet was able to live a sinless life far more inspiring than Jesus being God. If another human can live a sinless life, if they can achieve that then there is hope that everyone, not just Jesus, can also strive to do that. Being saved by grace doesn't motivate anyone to be better and they just depend on being born again as a way to hopefully reflect goodness. When they don't they just say, 'no one can be perfect' thereby not taking any responsibility in their failure to be less than perfect. But if you know Jesus is not a God and he achieved the level he achieved then there is hope for other to also achieve it and 100% responsibility on people if they don't achieve it. I don't think Jesus was sinless because he is said to have done some things that would be considered sinful if other humans did them. He was able to be strong when tempted because of his belief in his God, but if he was a God, temptation is meaningless. As far as people saying that his dying on the cross is meaningless if he wasn't God, I would have to say that he is much more of an inspiration dying as a human and if he was perfect and sinless, he would never have been quoted as saying 'My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me"? If he was God he never suffered on the cross so his crucifixion is made meaningless in that context. If he was a human with human doubts etc. then the story of the cross has so much of a richer meaning to it. If people are worried about a human dying on a cross not being able to save them because only a God can save them, think of it a bit differently. There is no reason why Jesus, 100% human, can't die and because of his death, God makes the promise to save everyone because Jesus as a human was able to be good enough for God to have mercy on all of humanity. It would make little sense and be completely meaningless imo if Jesus was God, that God was crucified by God to save humanity from God's wrath. It makes far more sense that he was a human that managed to be perfect enough in God's eyes to be an example to others as how to live. Also, if souls are eternal then has anyone ever thought of the implications of that? It would mean that everyone, not just Jesus, have existed with God forever in some form or another. That everyone is part of the spiritual creation of souls that have always existed and when they came into the physical realm it was to experience that, not to be tested but to have context regarding duality. snow, this was a very good post. Thank you. One point: Theologians make a distinction between the words Eternal and Everlasting. To them, only God is Eternal. Humans are everlasting (their souls). To be eternal means you have no beginning and no end; to be Eternal Everlasting means you had a beginning but will never have an end. Is my correction above what you meant to write?
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 7, 2015 14:06:38 GMT -5
How about this verse I John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word/Christ, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.That verse is disputed. It's not in the earliest manuscripts of the NT. The Trinitarian bible scribes were pretty desperate to shore up their wobbly theory it seems.
|
|
|
Post by holdmyhand on Sept 7, 2015 16:16:30 GMT -5
Can someone who believes Jesus is only and forever the son and separate from the father tell me how they read these verses from Revelations?
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Remember NT verses speak of Christ as creator of heaven and earth Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
See Rev 1:8 1:11 Jesus calls himself Alpha and Omega
Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
( I read this as one throne )
|
|
|
Post by holdmyhand on Sept 7, 2015 16:59:10 GMT -5
Where is your trinity? you have come up with some sort of duet? Can you hobble together a few more verses from here and there to come up with your trinity/trio? Why take away from the beauty & wonder that the Lamb on that wonderful Eternal Day? Will you be singing the Song of the Lamb? Will you be unable to distinguish him in a confusing trinity? Why take away from the 27 wonderful mentions of the Lamb in the Book of Revealation by trying to fit them into a 4th century trinity template? I didn't say anything about the trinity, I asked how you read those verses Can you please explain how quoting verses revealing the glory of the Lamb " takes away the beauty of the Lamb"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2015 22:06:51 GMT -5
snow, this was a very good post. Thank you. One point: Theologians make a distinction between the words Eternal and Everlasting. To them, only God is Eternal. Humans are everlasting (their souls). To be eternal means you have no beginning and no end; to be Eternal Everlasting means you had a beginning but will never have an end. Is my correction above what you meant to write? Yes, thank you for doing that, Fixit.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 7, 2015 23:42:33 GMT -5
Nathan; It's called Comma Johanneum. It is universally accepted that this verse was inserted by over enthusiastic trinity folk; a triad Monk Nathan, Monk Ross and Monk Thor. It doesn't matter to me who inserted or wrote IJohn 5:7-8 it goes hand in hand with the Old and New Testament Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit.You are doing yourself and your cause no good by seeking to defend the indefensible; it's called 'shooting yourself in the foot'. Another thing, tell me what would happen if you got up in a meeting and started talking about valiant thor, triune God, God the Holy Spirit. You'd have em sitting up listening I promise you that! Would I be far wrong if I forecast they'd wondering "what on earth has got into Nathan". They'd be polite and put up with it for a while, but would there really be a depth of unity and fellowship? As I said and I say it sincerely I understand you to be a good man with a good heart but 'boy oh boy' I sure wish you'd drop these couple of 'fruitcake' causes you have! You'd have your mind open and with room for rich things from his Scripture. In the Sunday morning meetings I speak mostly the Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit and things which bring encouragement, edification and comforts to those in the meetings. Many of the friends and workers have read my article on Valiant the last 3 yrs on TMB so they know my take on Valiant Thor and Donn Thor human looking angelic beings sent by Jesus Christ to help mankind to fight against Satan and His demonic Nazi Hitler's SS army in 1930- during WW II and in our days.
The true story of Valiant and his brother Donn Thor arrival on earth 1930s shows to the world that Jesus our Lord Almighty God cares and love humanity souls and our well beings. God hasn't forsaken us but is here to HELP us.
Sounds like some of sure need help, Nathan.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 5:34:32 GMT -5
Nate - you probably won't have any Scripture to validate Thor as Scripture was written shortly after Christ was on earth and as I understand it Thor came in the 1900's according to what you have written. It's a bit like expecting the Bible to mention TV's or the internet... I've often wondered If TV's are the false prophet of revelation it does say that the false prophet caused his "image" to speak and what does TV have? images that speak...
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Sept 8, 2015 6:14:07 GMT -5
Nah, that's the Internet wally. My computer/ Internet speaks to me all the time.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Sept 8, 2015 8:26:09 GMT -5
Today, many workers (and therefore friends) have no idea who God is. Perhaps, like many theists, they do know who they consider their god to be but just because it is not the same as your belief does not mean they do not know. God, it seems, has many faces.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2015 13:48:18 GMT -5
Today, many workers (and therefore friends) have no idea who God is. This is a classic! I hope Bertie has included it on one of his lists...
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Sept 8, 2015 14:42:40 GMT -5
In the Sunday morning meetings I speak mostly the Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit and things which bring encouragement, edification and comforts to those in the meetings. Many of the friends and workers have read my article on Valiant the last 3 yrs on TMB so they know my take on Valiant Thor and Donn Thor human looking angelic beings sent by Jesus Christ to help mankind to fight against Satan and His demonic Nazi Hitler's SS army in 1930- during WW II and in our days.
The true story of Valiant and his brother Donn Thor arrival on earth 1930s shows to the world that Jesus our Lord Almighty God cares and love humanity souls and our well beings. God hasn't forsaken us but is here to HELP us.
Nate - don't let Review005 divert or belittle you on your Valiant Thor beliefs! I have absolutely no idea about them in reality but you have a great understanding of the character and nature of God. And you are consistent on it. I had a laugh about being co-monks. What's clear in all this discussion is that Review005 doesn't seem to like anyone making too many comments about the Bible, expressing their knowledge or understanding of it and referring to the name of God too much. He's told me previously that I talk about God too much - great advice from a senior worker I'm told by those close to him that he is relatively harmless in real life though! And I imagine that was your experience when you caught up with him at Boring. In the Sunday morning meetings I speak mostly the Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit and things which bring encouragement, edification and comforts to those in the meetings. Many of the friends and workers have read my article on Valiant the last 3 yrs on TMB so they know my take on Valiant Thor and Donn Thor human looking angelic beings sent by Jesus Christ to help mankind to fight against Satan and His demonic Nazi Hitler's SS army in 1930- during WW II and in our days.
The true story of Valiant and his brother Donn Thor arrival on earth 1930s shows to the world that Jesus our Lord Almighty God cares and love humanity souls and our well beings. God hasn't forsaken us but is here to HELP us. Nathan, I suppose that are you referring to this Science Fiction book of Frank E. Stranges.
"Stranger at the Pentagon"
by Dr. Frank E. Stranges, Ph.D.
I, myself, also like sci fi However, one should keep their feet firmly planted in reality & know when something IS only science fictions! "When I asked him where he was from, he replied, 'I am from the Planet that is called Venus.' I asked him how many visitors from Venus were presently on Earth and he said, 'There are presently seventy seven of us walking among you in the United States. We are constantly coming and going.'" Totally impossible for people to live on the planet Venus due to the atmospheric conditions there.
When you claim to believe such impossible ideas, it makes everything else that you say unreliable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 23:37:19 GMT -5
Nathan, It is looking very hopeful that Ross will be the first one to join you in preaching Thor Trinityon TMB. Once you have Ross on board you'll soon have enuf for a trio-nity. I've noticed everywhere that Rossy posted the lamb enuf was sure to go! sounds like the Boston tea party
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 0:40:48 GMT -5
Today, many workers (and therefore friends) have no idea who God is. This is a classic! I hope Bertie has included it on one of his lists... i suppose we could say that God knows us. "come ye blessed of my Father" and i suppose we could say that Ross's comment has a very close likeness to pharisee comments in the Bible
|
|