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Post by xna on Jul 27, 2015 20:58:42 GMT -5
Bert, my Worker friend did not say they were "the wrong sort of people". He was disappointed that they were not able to provide the loaves and fishes that Scott mentions. My friend was a very compassionate, sensible man, and realised that the people needed more than spiritual help, they needed natural as well. Other Churches were doing that. When he asked his Overseer the answer was no. That was a bigger disappoiuntment, he left the work. Many worldly churches do many good things to help others. I am always happy to see & support this part of religion in action. As a 2x2, I thought if I just prayed "show them the truth", I had done a more important thing.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2015 21:38:59 GMT -5
The "wrong sort of people" was summed up nicely by Redback. In his case it was people who would come to your services if you offered them material incentives. Bearing of the cross means enduring the trials and tribulations of service - things which Jesus and company said "must come" into your life if you give your life to Christ. Maybe bearing of the cross meant you fed the hungry, healed the sick and never asked or expected anything in return.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 22:10:10 GMT -5
The "wrong sort of people" was summed up nicely by Redback. In his case it was people who would come to your services if you offered them material incentives. Bearing of the cross means enduring the trials and tribulations of service - things which Jesus and company said "must come" into your life if you give your life to Christ. Maybe bearing of the cross meant you fed the hungry, healed the sick and never asked or expected anything in return. taking up your cross meant denying oneself of worldly things...
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 27, 2015 22:35:46 GMT -5
Bert, my Worker friend did not say they were "the wrong sort of people". He was disappointed that they were not able to provide the loaves and fishes that Scott mentions. My friend was a very compassionate, sensible man, and realised that the people needed more than spiritual help, they needed natural as well. Other Churches were doing that. When he asked his Overseer the answer was no. That was a bigger disappoiuntment, he left the work. Seems your Worker friend could have joined some Govt or International food aid service like World Vision, US Agency for International Development, Oxfam etc.. They are the professionals.
ps I doubt though that giving food to people all the time teaches them self sufficiency. Oh, Bert! You are S0 kind! You are showing your fathomless, bleeding heart compassion again! Better reign it in before it overcomes you!
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 27, 2015 22:50:10 GMT -5
Quote - "And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives Can you give an example of what type of people would be wrong, and should not have a chance to listen to the gospel message? Perhaps show which people in the bible Jesus turned away?" What type? People who wouldn't respond to the Gospel.[/b] How do you know they wouldn't respond to the gospel message if they don't listen to it? ?? If they aren't invited, then how can they refuse?? Maybe you read about that differently than I did. Jesus had first went away alone to mourn his friend John, who had just had his head whacked off by order of Herod (it was a birthday present to his girlfriend). The five thousand searched him out and what did Jesus do? Nope. It isn't recorded that he preached to them at all. What he did was have compassion on them and heal the sick. And yep....then, he fed them. This particular type of 'Christian' is what you seem to be claiming a church church should turn away. You know..... the 'loaves and fishes' people, who Jesus welcomed compassionately . And then, I don't see where you are seeing Jesus evading questions and giving out hard sayings to the regular folks. In the same chapter (this is from Matthew 14), it is recorded that he crossed over the lake to Gennesaret (skipping the boat ride, he walked on water part way so he could spook his disciples in the middle of stormy weather), and once there what did he do? Nope, no preaching is recorded.... again.... however when he was recognized, the word went out and people brought all their sick to him to be healed. No hard words there, just compassion once again. Do you suppose that might just be part of the gospel message? You know, to take care of people's physical needs, with no strings attached? I think a lot of people believe that feeding the hungry and ministering to physical needs is a large part of what the gospel message is about. SO WHAT if those people don't join up with the church who may be feeding them? I am curious as to just what you think 'the bearing of His cross' means. Whenever I hear people refer to it, I wonder if they really understand what that means to an individual.[/quote] Great post Scott.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 27, 2015 23:00:49 GMT -5
Quote - "And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives Can you give an example of what type of people would be wrong, and should not have a chance to listen to the gospel message? Perhaps show which people in the bible Jesus turned away?" What type? People who wouldn't respond to the Gospel. Not have a chance? Those who refused to come and listen. Which people Jesus turned away? Those who came looking for him after the feeding of the five thousand. He offered them nothing, evaded their questions and gave them "hard sayings" He knew they wouldn't accept. Some see the Gospel merely as feeding the hungry with bread and healing the sick. The other side of the coin, the bearing of His cross, is the part most don't want to hear.Wow Bert, so when did you become the judge of who wouldn't respond to the Gospel ?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 27, 2015 23:37:34 GMT -5
Maybe bearing of the cross meant you fed the hungry, healed the sick and never asked or expected anything in return. taking up your cross meant denying oneself of worldly things...
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
I think you are adding to what Jesus said. He said one must deny himself. Nothing about 'worldly' stuff. 'Worldly' is a catchall word that people use when they want to make a point, but have a pretty hard time defining just what they mean. Deny yourself a fast food hamburger? Perhaps no computer? A dance? Alcohol? Car?...... I have yet to hear anyone give an answer that everyone could agree on. Denying oneself (in my opinion) would mean not putting myself first. I think it goes along with the commandment to love others. Here is perspective on denying self: Jesus uses the cross to represent true discipleship five times (Matt 10:38; 16:24-26; Mark 8:34-35; Luke 9:23-24; 14:27). What is the meaning and significance of the cross? Does this message apply to only initial salvation (salvation from the penalty of sin)?
In the Roman cultural context, "carrying the cross" was tacit admission that the criminal was wrong and that the death sentence was just. Death by crucifixion was excruciatingly painful.
With this Roman cultural context in view, "carrying the cross" symbolizes Jesus’ sovereign right over the lives of disciples and their submission to the One who they had at one time rebelled against.
From a theological perspective, the cross was:
A place of sacrifice: Jesus’ life / your sins
A place of atonement: Jesus’ work on the cross / your freedom from the penalty and power of sin
A place of redemption: Jesus’ glory / your forgiveness and restored relationship with God
Luke 9:23-24 mentions, "… take up his cross daily…" which makes clear that this imperative is not a onetime event (as in initial salvation); thus, it is an important concept for the process of sanctification (salvation from the power of sin).
What does it mean to "take up the cross daily"? This may be a reference to the struggle against the challenges and temptations of personal sins. So while one may be free of the penalty of sin (initial salvation), the Christian life is discovering God’s holy standard, striving towards making it our own and realizing that we cannot do it by our own efforts.
"Take up his cross daily" is a constant reminder of the nature of Jesus’ atonement. The belief in Jesus’ work on the cross is the basis of repentance and the motivation to be holy. This "change in mind" causes a change in behavior" and provides a life by grace.helpmewithbiblestudy.org/9Salvation/SanctifyWhatDoesItMeanToCarryCross.aspx
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 27, 2015 23:51:22 GMT -5
Recently a man in a very third world country told me " many groups and churches cane to our town offering us material help but none of those offered us anything for our soul,until the workers came" I found that interesting.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 28, 2015 3:29:06 GMT -5
As an aside to this: churches are declining about one percent a year, maybe more. What isn't being measured it how much they are doctrinally declining - hollowing out. Church keep offering people more and more non-church things, watering down demands, lowering standards etc.. Still hasn't slowed the decline. An Anglican church here had a sign saying "Free movies" for the town's youth, plus tea and cakes. What hope have they got? It's a race to the bottom. Churches are competing against secular institutions, not only becoming more secular, but failing to compete in the process. Bert, what do the F&W do for the youth ? NOTHING ! So of course the youth will go somewhere that caters for them ! What is wrong with having a "movie night" anyway ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 28, 2015 3:29:56 GMT -5
Recently a man in a very third world country told me " many groups and churches cane to our town offering us material help but none of those offered us anything for our soul,until the workers came" I found that interesting. So of course that makes the workers "right" !!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 4:05:06 GMT -5
Recently a man in a very third world country told me " many groups and churches cane to our town offering us material help but none of those offered us anything for our soul,until the workers came" I found that interesting. So of course that makes the workers "right" !! of course
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 4:06:21 GMT -5
As an aside to this: churches are declining about one percent a year, maybe more. What isn't being measured it how much they are doctrinally declining - hollowing out. Church keep offering people more and more non-church things, watering down demands, lowering standards etc.. Still hasn't slowed the decline. An Anglican church here had a sign saying "Free movies" for the town's youth, plus tea and cakes. What hope have they got? It's a race to the bottom. Churches are competing against secular institutions, not only becoming more secular, but failing to compete in the process. Bert, what do the F&W do for the youth ? NOTHING ! So of course the youth will go somewhere that caters for them ! What is wrong with having a "movie night" anyway ? what did Christ do for the youth in His day? what does Christ do for youth today?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 6:56:01 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, what do the F&W do for the youth ? NOTHING !" That's correct. Jesus didn't cater His message for anyone.Quote - "So of course the youth will go somewhere that caters for them!" That's fine. We know where we stand. That's what the Jews did. Jesus didn't appeal. Some time later we read of them choosing a guy called Bar Kokhba (Son of the Star - their idea of what a Messiah should be) to fight the Romans. The rest is history.Quote - "What is wrong with having a "movie night" anyway ?" Lots of problems.... 1 - The bible says that people shouldn't be lured to the Gospel. 2 - Why don't they want to come and hear Jesus' word? 3 - What movies would Jesus watch, if He was here today? 4 - Don't these kids have Netflix, DVD's, TV already?
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Post by matisse on Jul 28, 2015 8:24:18 GMT -5
Yes, there's a fine line between people coming to your church and gaining material support, and people coming to your church FOR material support. And yes, I agree with you, "bearing a cross refers to living one's life in a manner shown to us by Jesus." Off the top of my head, I recall Jesus saying that "offenses must come, but woe to those by whom these offenses come." That word "must" is often on my mind - an example of something that's a part of your service. If you are popular, if you are not being offended or rejected, then you aren't living as Jesus said you will live. How many come because they want an "eternal reward"? How many come because they fear "eternal torment"? Are these not selfish motivations?
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Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 8:52:58 GMT -5
I'm not understanding how someone couldn't have compassion for someone in need. Why WOULDN'T you want to share a little something with them? I know many use the ones that did it to themselves as an excuse to help no-one.
Why did Jesus tell that man that he asked to follow him, to give all that he had to the poor? Did he tell them to go figure out which of the poor deserved it? Nope. Jesus had compassion on everyone. This man was not willing for the cost.
I believe ultimately that those that are not willing to help the poor, use many excuses, but the real reason is that they are not willing for the cost.
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Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 9:10:22 GMT -5
Here is something else I believe;
I was really lucky. I was born with a brain, born into a good family with good work ethics, given a good education, and many things that really gave me all the tools to be successful in life.
There are many that were not so fortunate as I. They didn't happen to be very smart, perhaps born into a family that taught them basically nothing, gave them basically no chance in life as I had.
So then this person ends up homeless. Do I walk by this person and look at them in distain? Think to myself, " this person did it to them-self".
Jesus showed us that if our hearts right, that it comes through in every part of us.
Preaching to someone has no cost - unless we sell all and give to the poor of course. Being self righteous may have a little cost, but ultimately its done for selfish reasons. What really cracks me up is those that say they are suffering the cost of persecution. Yeah right. We are sooooo persecuted today. The Apostles - yes. Being hung on a cross upside down would be "suffering persecution". We are NOT "persecuted" today for our belief in Christ.
There are cost for being willing to "take up our cross" and truly show compassion, and truly "living for others" as others have explained above is what that really means. Many are just not willing for the cost of ALL of it.
I'm just so thankful that I was lucky enough to have the privilege of being on the giving side of life. How much worse for the ones that are on the receiving side.
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Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 9:49:37 GMT -5
I've heard of twisting scripture to meet our own belief, but I'm curious how anyone can twist the scripture of the Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. This was a story that Jesus told specifically talking about a man's natural needs that a selfish man - that had natural things - that was not willing to share. It doesn't say that the rich man didn't help or contribute in places where he would get recognition. All we know is that he didn't help this man at his gate that probably was not good to look upon (he had sores all over that the dogs were licking), that was in great need of a meal.
I'm sure someone can find a way to twist this scripture into something that would justify not helping those that have physical needs as Lazarus had.
We also read how it ended for the both of them. To me, Jesus made it pretty obvious exactly why The Rich man ended up where he ended up....it was the whole point of the story.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 11:50:32 GMT -5
Maybe bearing of the cross meant you fed the hungry, healed the sick and never asked or expected anything in return. taking up your cross meant denying oneself of worldly things...
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Actually it says to deny oneself but it doesn't say 'of worldly things'. So it could be denying oneself in order to take care of others. He doesn't specify what you need to deny yourself of.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 28, 2015 12:14:00 GMT -5
taking up your cross meant denying oneself of worldly things...
Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Actually it says to deny oneself but it doesn't say 'of worldly things'. So it could be denying oneself in order to take care of others. He doesn't specify what you need to deny yourself of. I believe denying ourselves includes worldly things, it also includes denying what's wrong within our own hearts and it also means putting others before ourselves. In other words putting God first and ourselves last and becoming humble. And Jesus did say about his followers not being of the world. John 15 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Also 1 John 2 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Also Titus 2 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; So I believe Wally is right, and self denial does also include denying the world. Sorry to quote the bible again, but if I don't back up what I say with scripture, I get told that it's my own beliefs!
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Post by Mary on Jul 28, 2015 12:29:19 GMT -5
Bert, Jesus used miracles to attract the crowds.
How many people are 'lured' to meetings because family are there?
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 14:00:25 GMT -5
Actually it says to deny oneself but it doesn't say 'of worldly things'. So it could be denying oneself in order to take care of others. He doesn't specify what you need to deny yourself of. I believe denying ourselves includes worldly things, it also includes denying what's wrong within our own hearts and it also means putting others before ourselves. In other words putting God first and ourselves last and becoming humble. And Jesus did say about his followers not being of the world. John 15 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Also 1 John 2 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Also Titus 2 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; So I believe Wally is right, and self denial does also include denying the world. Sorry to quote the bible again, but if I don't back up what I say with scripture, I get told that it's my own beliefs! I don't see it that way as denial of worldly things and it doesn't really say that. I do agree we need to take care of others, but I don't agree that we should do that and ignore our own needs. We are no good to someone else if we don't first take good care of ourselves. An example of that is when you are flying with a child. You put on your own oxygen mask before you help the child with theirs. I think the same thing goes for love. We need to know how to love ourselves before we can truly love others. What we don't have we can't give. There are things that we do in this world that are not beneficial for anyone, and I think that's what is likely being referred to more than denying things just because they are considered 'worldly', whatever that is. Everyone has a different definition of 'worldly' anyway. I just think we are meant to help others, help ourselves so we can help others, don't harm others or put road blocks in their way. I often wonder why poverty of finances in this world is considered Godly. Someone with money doesn't need help from others and they may even have enough to share with those who do need help. I see nothing ungodly about being a millionaire that is putting their money to good use in this world helping others. But, you can't do that if you don't have any to start with. I can see how just hoarding money and doing nothing to help others with it isn't helpful. I think that it isn't worldly possessions or riches that are sinful, it's not sharing them with others when we can that is not beneficial.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 28, 2015 14:19:00 GMT -5
I don't see it that way as denial of worldly things and it doesn't really say that. I do agree we need to take care of others, but I don't agree that we should do that and ignore our own needs. We are no good to someone else if we don't first take good care of ourselves. An example of that is when you are flying with a child. You put on your own oxygen mask before you help the child with theirs. I think the same thing goes for love. We need to know how to love ourselves before we can truly love others. What we don't have we can't give. There are things that we do in this world that are not beneficial for anyone, and I think that's what is likely being referred to more than denying things just because they are considered 'worldly', whatever that is. Everyone has a different definition of 'worldly' anyway. I just think we are meant to help others, help ourselves so we can help others, don't harm others or put road blocks in their way. I often wonder why poverty of finances in this world is considered Godly. Someone with money doesn't need help from others and they may even have enough to share with those who do need help. I see nothing ungodly about being a millionaire that is putting their money to good use in this world helping others. But, you can't do that if you don't have any to start with. I can see how just hoarding money and doing nothing to help others with it isn't helpful. I think that it isn't worldly possessions or riches that are sinful, it's not sharing them with others when we can that is not beneficial. I'm with you on this Snow. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself. And it is covetousness that is the sin, not having things. 1 John 2:16 defines "worldly" for me: "For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world." To me that is sexual sin, covetousness and pride--those things are worldliness, not having money and nice things. The bible speaks of riches as being a blessing that is to be shared, not hoarded--we take care of the poor and vulnerable with our goods. (Yes, I have scripture for that but I won't inundate you with more of that, my friend )
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Post by maryhig on Jul 28, 2015 14:31:26 GMT -5
I believe denying ourselves includes worldly things, it also includes denying what's wrong within our own hearts and it also means putting others before ourselves. In other words putting God first and ourselves last and becoming humble. And Jesus did say about his followers not being of the world. John 15 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Also 1 John 2 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Also Titus 2 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; So I believe Wally is right, and self denial does also include denying the world. Sorry to quote the bible again, but if I don't back up what I say with scripture, I get told that it's my own beliefs! I don't see it that way as denial of worldly things and it doesn't really say that. I do agree we need to take care of others, but I don't agree that we should do that and ignore our own needs. We are no good to someone else if we don't first take good care of ourselves. An example of that is when you are flying with a child. You put on your own oxygen mask before you help the child with theirs. I think the same thing goes for love. We need to know how to love ourselves before we can truly love others. What we don't have we can't give. There are things that we do in this world that are not beneficial for anyone, and I think that's what is likely being referred to more than denying things just because they are considered 'worldly', whatever that is. Everyone has a different definition of 'worldly' anyway. I just think we are meant to help others, help ourselves so we can help others, don't harm others or put road blocks in their way. I often wonder why poverty of finances in this world is considered Godly. Someone with money doesn't need help from others and they may even have enough to share with those who do need help. I see nothing ungodly about being a millionaire that is putting their money to good use in this world helping others. But, you can't do that if you don't have any to start with. I can see how just hoarding money and doing nothing to help others with it isn't helpful. I think that it isn't worldly possessions or riches that are sinful, it's not sharing them with others when we can that is not beneficial. But that's exactly it, as we've discussed before it's not the money, but the love of it. But the problem is that there are not too many wealthy people that would only have enough to live on. And give the rest away to the those in need. It's easy to give a little out of your millions, it's not so easy to keep what you need to live off out of your millions and give the rest away! Money brings greed, and wealth brings corruption. Excessive wealth isn't a good thing to have, it can take over peoples lives. I can very much imagine that it would do so to me also so I personally am better without having excessive amounts of money. I've seen what it does in my own life, to people I know! But the world isn't just excess money, it's wanting power, and needing to be above others. It's pride and greed is getting drawn into wickedness and corruption. And denial of our flesh is also a part of self denial, It's denial of your own wrongful side of our own nature. That lusts after worldly things, also denial of greed, hardness and selfishness etc. Being not be content with what we have and continually need to better ourselves, to think we are above others. To love ourselves before God. As for loving ourselves first, that's not for me, Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. If we have the love of God within our hearts, then that should happen naturally because Gods spirit should be filling out heart with love and we if we truly love God, we should be showing that love outwardly to others!
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 14:55:06 GMT -5
I don't see it that way as denial of worldly things and it doesn't really say that. I do agree we need to take care of others, but I don't agree that we should do that and ignore our own needs. We are no good to someone else if we don't first take good care of ourselves. An example of that is when you are flying with a child. You put on your own oxygen mask before you help the child with theirs. I think the same thing goes for love. We need to know how to love ourselves before we can truly love others. What we don't have we can't give. There are things that we do in this world that are not beneficial for anyone, and I think that's what is likely being referred to more than denying things just because they are considered 'worldly', whatever that is. Everyone has a different definition of 'worldly' anyway. I just think we are meant to help others, help ourselves so we can help others, don't harm others or put road blocks in their way. I often wonder why poverty of finances in this world is considered Godly. Someone with money doesn't need help from others and they may even have enough to share with those who do need help. I see nothing ungodly about being a millionaire that is putting their money to good use in this world helping others. But, you can't do that if you don't have any to start with. I can see how just hoarding money and doing nothing to help others with it isn't helpful. I think that it isn't worldly possessions or riches that are sinful, it's not sharing them with others when we can that is not beneficial. But that's exactly it, as we've discussed before it's not the money, but the love of it. But the problem is that there are not too many wealthy people that would only have enough to live on. And give the rest away to the those in need. It's easy to give a little out of your millions, it's not so easy to keep what you need to live off out of your millions and give the rest away! Money brings greed, and wealth brings corruption. Excessive wealth isn't a good thing to have, it can take over peoples lives. I can very much imagine that it would do so to me also so I personally am better without having excessive amounts of money. I've seen what it does in my own life, to people I know! But the world isn't just excess money, it's wanting power, and needing to be above others. It's pride and greed is getting drawn into wickedness and corruption. And denial of our flesh is also a part of self denial, It's denial of your own wrongful side of our own nature. That lusts after worldly things, also denial of greed, hardness and selfishness etc. Being not be content with what we have and continually need to better ourselves, to think we are above others. To love ourselves before God. As for loving ourselves first, that's not for me, Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself. If we have the love of God with our hearts, then that should happen naturally because Gods spirit should be filling out heart with love and we if we truly love God, should be showing that love outwardly to others! First of all, understanding how money works is important. Having money, gives you more money. It grows through investments etc. so that you always have money to share. If you win a million dollars and give most of it away except for what you need for bills etc., then it's going to be a one time event. However, if you invest some of it so that it can grow it becomes an ongoing event. Giving it all away just puts you back in the position of existence with no ability to share and help others. I agree, sometimes money means power to some people. I believe that is what hberry is talking about coveting goods or money being the sin, not the having of goods and money so you can share. I don't think we should ever be completely content with ourselves because then there would be no growth. We do need to keep growing and understanding. I think you do that, don't you. Don't you continually feel the need to better yourself for God? Well I don't have a God in the equation, but I do want to be a better person and that means growth in those areas. I am not advocating loving ourselves over someone else. I do, however, believe that we need to know how to love and respect our needs first in order to be able to love and respect other's needs. You say if you love God then you will just love others. Okay. I say my knowledge and respect for myself allows me to give my respect and love to others. If we don't love ourselves we aren't a very pleasurable person to be around. We are usually depressed, sometimes bitter etc. We are occasionally more self centered too when we are depressed or bitter. So that is what I mean about loving and respecting yourself first in order to project that out into the world around you. An example of that with me on here is this: When I have higher levels of pain than usual, I get discouraged and depressed and how I interact on here definitely is reflected in how I'm feeling. I am not able to see things in the same way as I do on days when I am less discouraged and happier. So what we have inside comes out and that is why I say if we have love then we can give love. Hope that explains it better. It's not 'I love myself more than I love others'.
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Post by Mary on Jul 28, 2015 15:02:54 GMT -5
There are plenty of poor people who are greedy and corrupt.
How is paying rent the rest of your life to someone who owns a house any more Godly than owning one yourself as per an earlier post of yours, Maryhig? We need to be wise stewards with our money.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 28, 2015 15:31:42 GMT -5
There are plenty of poor people who are greedy and corrupt. How is paying rent the rest of your life to someone who owns a house any more Godly than owning one yourself as per an earlier post of yours, Maryhig? We need to be wise stewards with our money. If you recall Mary, the only reason I told you I rented my home was because you asked me if I owned my house. I said no. And I didn't say that because people own a home they are corrupt! People who love money and put it before the care of others when they see they are in need are corrupt! But there are many other things we do that corrupt us, if we let them. Not just loving money!
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Jul 28, 2015 16:30:03 GMT -5
I agree, sometimes money means power to some people. I believe that is what hberry is talking about coveting goods or money being the sin, not the having of goods and money so you can share. (SNIP) I am not advocating loving ourselves over someone else. I do, however, believe that we need to know how to love and respect our needs first in order to be able to love and respect other's needs. (SNIP) Yes, that is what I meant with respect to coveting. And on your point on loving yourself, Jesus said we are to love our neighbor as yourself. For me, this means you consider others as "self." What hurts another hurts you ("weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.") Considering others as an extension of self means that you love them as you love yourself because they are 'you.' If that's too dippy trippy, then just love others as you love yourself and be done with it. If we are Jesus's disciple, we aren't to love anyone more than Him, and we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's how I read it, at any rate. And that keeps me focused. Mark 12:31 "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 16:39:57 GMT -5
I agree, sometimes money means power to some people. I believe that is what hberry is talking about coveting goods or money being the sin, not the having of goods and money so you can share. (SNIP) I am not advocating loving ourselves over someone else. I do, however, believe that we need to know how to love and respect our needs first in order to be able to love and respect other's needs. (SNIP) Yes, that is what I meant with respect to coveting. And on your point on loving yourself, Jesus said we are to love our neighbor as yourself. For me, this means you consider others as "self." What hurts another hurts you ("weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.") Considering others as an extension of self means that you love them as you love yourself because they are 'you.' If that's too dippy trippy, then just love others as you love yourself and be done with it. If we are Jesus's disciple, we aren't to love anyone more than Him, and we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's how I read it, at any rate. And that keeps me focused. Mark 12:31 "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Yes, that's how I would interpret the 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Treating people as I would like to be treated because we share a humanity. I did read once that we needed to be careful about that because not everyone thinks like us so therefore might not have the same needs to be treated like we want to be treated. But overall, I think it's fairly safe to treat others with respect and compassion and then you can't go too far wrong.
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