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Post by maryhig on Jul 28, 2015 16:57:03 GMT -5
Yes, that is what I meant with respect to coveting. And on your point on loving yourself, Jesus said we are to love our neighbor as yourself. For me, this means you consider others as "self." What hurts another hurts you ("weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice.") Considering others as an extension of self means that you love them as you love yourself because they are 'you.' If that's too dippy trippy, then just love others as you love yourself and be done with it. If we are Jesus's disciple, we aren't to love anyone more than Him, and we are to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's how I read it, at any rate. And that keeps me focused. Mark 12:31 "The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Yes, that's how I would interpret the 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Treating people as I would like to be treated because we share a humanity. I did read once that we needed to be careful about that because not everyone thinks like us so therefore might not have the same needs to be treated like we want to be treated. But overall, I think it's fairly safe to treat others with respect and compassion and then you can't go too far wrong. Yes, I see it as, if we see the need, and we can help, then we should do it. The world would be a much better place if everyone saw the need around them, and everyone helped each other more, don't you think?
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 17:10:23 GMT -5
Yes, that's how I would interpret the 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Treating people as I would like to be treated because we share a humanity. I did read once that we needed to be careful about that because not everyone thinks like us so therefore might not have the same needs to be treated like we want to be treated. But overall, I think it's fairly safe to treat others with respect and compassion and then you can't go too far wrong. Yes, I see it as, if we see the need, and we can help, then we should do it. The world would be a much better place if everyone saw the need around them, and everyone helped each other more, don't you think? Absolutely.
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 28, 2015 17:19:12 GMT -5
Yes, I see it as, if we see the need, and we can help, then we should do it. The world would be a much better place if everyone saw the need around them, and everyone helped each other more, don't you think? Absolutely. Yes I totally agree, but it doesn't have to be done under a church umbrella. People within a church can give all they want to to the poor (there are many way to do this) and the gospel can be preached. Why does the helping and giving have to be from 'the church'. I know many of our friends that are very involved in charities and non profit organisations but they dont involve the church. Isnt this a better way to do it?
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Post by jondough on Jul 28, 2015 17:21:21 GMT -5
Yes I totally agree, but it doesn't have to be done under a church umbrella. People within a church can give all they want to to the poor (there are many way to do this) and the gospel can be preached. Why does the helping and giving have to be from 'the church'. I know many of our friends that are very involved in charities and non profit organisations but they dont involve the church. Isnt this a better way to do it? yes
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 17:45:59 GMT -5
Having consumed over $1,000,000 in medically related loses, now I attempt to live on $1,100.00 per month SS, supplemented by an occasional sale of a puppy or two. The ONLY way I know that my paltry gift to the poor can be of any good to them IS by combining it with others gifts and then directing it sans administration costs to be used for those in need. True, it wasn't always so, and when able I used to meet greater needs.
Still, I do remember once offering a full container full of items to workers in Africa for distribution among the needy there in an anonymous manner. They were literally horrified at my suggestion. The one declining my offer died from altitude sickness climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro a very short time thereafter. In the US it is possible to gather many second hand items which could ease the discomfort and unmet needs of many in such places. Pity so few believe in doing so, instead expecting a government to do it through tax dollars largely winding up in the hands of the already advantaged in those countries.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 17:47:39 GMT -5
Yes I totally agree, but it doesn't have to be done under a church umbrella. People within a church can give all they want to to the poor (there are many way to do this) and the gospel can be preached. Why does the helping and giving have to be from 'the church'. I know many of our friends that are very involved in charities and non profit organisations but they dont involve the church. Isnt this a better way to do it? Actually was reading something on that very subject the other day and in many ways the secular organizations are a better place to put your money if you want your money to go towards practical, functional help for people. Many of the ones under the church umbrella put more money into religious types of things like bibles or churches etc instead of food, shelter and clothing. I don't think I would ever donate to a church based charity for that reason, but then I am a non believer so I'm sure others would disagree.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 28, 2015 18:05:48 GMT -5
That isn't too relevant for churches who do community outreach. It isn't even usually about money, but more about time. Money buys the things that are needed for soup kitchens etc, but community outreach is much more than that. I went with a youth group who was raking leaves in yards for people either old or physically disabled. None of those people they raked leaves for were members of the church. They have a program in Minnesota called 'Feed My Starving Children'. Members of the church would go help prepare the simple meals and package them for shipment. (Also anyone can do this, as well as various other groups)
The point of getting involved as a church, is that several people can do more than an individual. I am not dissing those churches who do not believe in helping others (as a church), simply saying that most churches have some sort of community outreach.
Food pantries are in a lot of churches. It isn't for church members, but rather anyone that may have a need. Our pastor would also call the local gas station and authorize $20 worth of gas when someone stopped by the church needing help. No questions, no preaching, just some help. Specific needs for specific circumstances are easier to fill as a church than an individual.
Also, I absolutely know that many people who are not Christians, or affiliated with a specific church find ways to help in the community.
I personally feel that churches have a responsibility toward the community they are in to help in some way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 18:16:01 GMT -5
Bert, Jesus used miracles to attract the crowds. That's a seriously smart comment Mary. I had to stop and think it through because in a way - it's true. Recall Him saying "But that you might know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, I say unto you, rise and take up your bed" (hope I got that right!)
Who said this? 'Extreme claims require extreme evidence' and Jesus' claim was extreme. So many who witnessed his miracles couldn't deny Him - they dismissed His Gospel, and left themselves without excuse. Could be a thread all in itself.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2015 18:17:58 GMT -5
That isn't too relevant for churches who do community outreach. It isn't even usually about money, but more about time. Money buys the things that are needed for soup kitchens etc, but community outreach is much more than that. I went with a youth group who was raking leaves in yards for people either old or physically disabled. None of those people they raked leaves for were members of the church. They have a program in Minnesota called 'Feed My Starving Children'. Members of the church would go help prepare the simple meals and package them for shipment. (Also anyone can do this, as well as various other groups) The point of getting involved as a church, is that several people can do more than an individual. I am not dissing those churches who do not believe in helping others (as a church), simply saying that most churches have some sort of community outreach. Food pantries are in a lot of churches. It isn't for church members, but rather anyone that may have a need. Our pastor would also call the local gas station and authorize $20 worth of gas when someone stopped by the church needing help. No questions, no preaching, just some help. Specific needs for specific circumstances are easier to fill as a church than an individual. Also, I absolutely know that many people who are not Christians, or affiliated with a specific church find ways to help in the community. I personally feel that churches have a responsibility toward the community they are in to help in some way. Yes, local church groups can do a lot for a community. I was thinking more of the missionary type charities overseas. I have worked in church soup kitchens myself as a non member. I also volunteered as an ESL teacher within a church setting. There is a lot of good that can be done by churches and many of them do. Not all the volunteers need to be church members either which is nice. It's nice when all of us get together and help others no matter what church we are affiliated with or as a non believer too. It is also nice to see churches helping those who are not their members and many do that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2015 18:38:21 GMT -5
[quote author=" snow" I personally feel that churches have a responsibility toward the community they are in to help in some way. [/quote]Yes, local church groups can do a lot for a community. I was thinking more of the missionary type charities overseas. I have worked in church soup kitchens myself as a non member. I also volunteered as an ESL teacher within a church setting. There is a lot of good that can be done by churches and many of them do. Not all the volunteers need to be church members either which is nice. It's nice when all of us get together and help others no matter what church we are affiliated with or as a non believer too. It is also nice to see churches helping those who are not their members and many do that.[/quote] Snow, you are so right. There are better ways to connect with needy people, rather than bible bashing at them. One of the best experiences I had, was when I was asked to be Treasurer of a Church, that I was not even a member of. The reason I was asked was my day job was keeping books, and handling money. As I became involved in the welfare work of that Church, I learnt what real Christianity was all about. They did not do it to swell their Church numbers, but it was done with real compassion for people less fortunate.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 28, 2015 20:01:39 GMT -5
Quote - "Bert, what do the F&W do for the youth ? NOTHING !" That's correct. Jesus didn't cater His message for anyone.Quote - "So of course the youth will go somewhere that caters for them!" That's fine. We know where we stand. That's what the Jews did. Jesus didn't appeal. Some time later we read of them choosing a guy called Bar Kokhba (Son of the Star - their idea of what a Messiah should be) to fight the Romans. The rest is history.Quote - "What is wrong with having a "movie night" anyway ?" Lots of problems.... 1 - The bible says that people shouldn't be lured to the Gospel. 2 - Why don't they want to come and hear Jesus' word? 3 - What movies would Jesus watch, if He was here today? 4 - Don't these kids have Netflix, DVD's, TV already?View AttachmentThe typical response of someone who is very out of touch with the youth of today !
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Post by bitterbetty on Jul 29, 2015 17:01:00 GMT -5
Very worthwhile discussion here! And, many great points brought out from ALL sides of the 'argument' (if that is what one can call it). I see all sides of it really...maybe from being a nurse for so many years and (literally) attending to the VAST and various NEEDS of patients along with the needs of their families and friends.
As a caregiver, you are often behooved to attend to the most PRESSING needs that confront you at any given time.
This may mean you need to take care of someone's PAIN before you move on to take care of other needs. This may mean you need to take care of someone's blood pressure that is bottoming out before you attend to any other need...first things first, so to speak. This may mean you need to feed someone who is hungry first....Most always, SAFETY comes first and foremost...but providing that the patient is safe, there are so many other needs that arise, it could be a bit overwhelming at times! So, which need takes precedence? That is often a judgment call...But one thing that always stuck so profoundly with me is the 'need' that someone has when they are on their death bed; taking those last few gasping breaths...
That is perhaps one of the most profound times that you will ever experience...every other need that may have occurred before that moment gets pushed into the background as the soul departs from the body and the physical body ceases to live....what then? Where to then? None of us will really ever know what happens to the soul after the body dies until we meet that moment ourselves....but it most always causes caregivers and families and friends to pause and wonder....
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Jul 29, 2015 17:16:28 GMT -5
Perhaps there is some truth to the concept that some poor and needy people will want more handouts....
HOWEVER, and this is a big however-I think by and large most poor and needy folks are truly thankful when they are down and out and it seemed they were labeled as a lost cause-and yet-there was ONE, even just ONE individual or group that gave them another CHANCE...another CHANCE...most people do not take that other chance for granted, but are deeply thankful for it and it can be life-changing.
So, give. Just give. You may not 'see' the results that giving produces right away. You may never see it. In fact, some people do not express their gratitude or do not know how...BUT I still believe that most of them are truly grateful.
I remember a time when I was feeling 'down and out' and not knowing how I was going to make it through the day, let alone the week...I remember that feeling of abandonment...I REMEMBER so well, too, those who did NOT abandon me and were really there for me when I needed someone to be there the most. I had almost given up on myself as well...but 'someone' did not abandon me and gave me another chance...that in turn helped me to not give up entirely on myself.
See, we do not know how far-reaching our actions or inactions may or may not be...And, I believe that God very much works through people!
Some folks have sort of given up on theirselves-it is not only helpful, but can be life-changing when they realize that someone still has faith in them as a human being...
There really are so many people who are 'down and out' and I don't necessarily mean a homeless person on the street begging for hand-outs-a person can be 'down and out' in spirit; poor in spirit-while at the same time having all of their physical and material needs well taken care of. Bill Gates and Donald Trump can be just as 'down and out' in an inner way as the bum on the street.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 29, 2015 17:32:02 GMT -5
Very worthwhile discussion here! And, many great points brought out from ALL sides of the 'argument' (if that is what one can call it). I see all sides of it really...maybe from being a nurse for so many years and (literally) attending to the VAST and various NEEDS of patients along with the needs of their families and friends. As a caregiver, you are often behooved to attend to the most PRESSING needs that confront you at any given time. This may mean you need to take care of someone's PAIN before you move on to take care of other needs. This may mean you need to take care of someone's blood pressure that is bottoming out before you attend to any other need...first things first, so to speak. This may mean you need to feed someone who is hungry first....Most always, SAFETY comes first and foremost...but providing that the patient is safe, there are so many other needs that arise, it could be a bit overwhelming at times! So, which need takes precedence? That is often a judgment call...But one thing that always stuck so profoundly with me is the 'need' that someone has when they are on their death bed; taking those last few gasping breaths... That is perhaps one of the most profound times that you will ever experience...every other need that may have occurred before that moment gets pushed into the background as the soul departs from the body and the physical body ceases to live....what then? Where to then? None of us will really ever know what happens to the soul after the body dies until we meet that moment ourselves....but it most always causes caregivers and families and friends to pause and wonder.... It does indeed. I sat with my Mom as she passed out of time and it was, to paraphrase scripture, a moment I felt I should take off my shoes, for I was on holy ground. The difference between still barely breathing and done with that forever was profound.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 20:10:53 GMT -5
Why should a worker preaching in South Asia or Africa come to the US/Canada/Britain/Australia/NZ and berate the more developed countries for not upholding the standard? Why? Maybe it is a shock to see shorter skirts, blue jeans, more jewelry etc. than they saw when they last preached or visited there??
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 30, 2015 8:20:38 GMT -5
Recently a man in a very third world country told me " many groups and churches cane to our town offering us material help but none of those offered us anything for our soul,until the workers came" I found that interesting. So of course that makes the workers "right" !! I cant see where I made that statement. I was just repeating what the man told me. He could clearly see and appreciate the difference between material and spiritual help.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 8:35:10 GMT -5
Why should a worker preaching in South Asia or Africa come to the US/Canada/Britain/Australia/NZ and berate the more developed countries for not upholding the standard? Why? Maybe it is a shock to see shorter skirts, blue jeans, more jewelry etc. than they saw when they last preached or visited there?? "We" in the West have seriously lost sight of how "bad" we are compared to previous generations. But we can gain an insight through immigrants from poor countries. How often people find, in having a joke with these immigrants (traditional Catholics, Muslims etc.)that the joke isn't so funny. These immigrants are like a reminder of our ancestors point of view. They find our dirty talk, our dress, our attitudes towards sex etc. highly offensive. But "we" have gotten used to "changing social attitudes."
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Post by jondough on Jul 30, 2015 9:04:13 GMT -5
Why should a worker preaching in South Asia or Africa come to the US/Canada/Britain/Australia/NZ and berate the more developed countries for not upholding the standard? Why? Maybe it is a shock to see shorter skirts, blue jeans, more jewelry etc. than they saw when they last preached or visited there?? "We" in the West have seriously lost sight of how "bad" we are compared to previous generations. But we can gain an insight through immigrants from poor countries. How often people find, in having a joke with these immigrants (traditional Catholics, Muslims etc.)that the joke isn't so funny. These immigrants are like a reminder of our ancestors point of view. They find our dirty talk, our dress, our attitudes towards sex etc. highly offensive. But "we" have gotten used to "changing social attitudes."I think you're wrong Bert. Yesterday my 13 year old daughter - after volleyball practice (beach/sand) asked if one of her team-mate/friend, who had never been to church, could come to meeting with us and spend the night. We have to jam from the beach, 1/2 hour to meeting, and barely make it in time after practice to Wednesday night meeting. So on the way, her friend was wearing a dress with wide straps for sleeves (not spaghetti straps). She looked over at my daughter and said "am I not suppose to be showing my shoulders?". I was really impressed with my daughters answer. She said, "no, thats ok, we just want to look modest". Then she went on and explained what that meant (to her). I really think you paint the young generation in a wrong light. I actually think they have better hearts than when I was that age. I wasn't professing, and I probably would have been embarrassed for my friends to even know I was heading to some weird 2X2 church.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 30, 2015 10:35:06 GMT -5
"We" in the West have seriously lost sight of how "bad" we are compared to previous generations. But we can gain an insight through immigrants from poor countries. How often people find, in having a joke with these immigrants (traditional Catholics, Muslims etc.)that the joke isn't so funny. These immigrants are like a reminder of our ancestors point of view. They find our dirty talk, our dress, our attitudes towards sex etc. highly offensive. But "we" have gotten used to "changing social attitudes."I think you're wrong Bert. Yesterday my 13 year old daughter - after volleyball practice (beach/sand) asked if one of her team-mate/friend, who had never been to church, could come to meeting with us and spend the night. We have to jam from the beach, 1/2 hour to meeting, and barely make it in time after practice to Wednesday night meeting. So on the way, her friend was wearing a dress with wide straps for sleeves (not spaghetti straps). She looked over at my daughter and said "am I not suppose to be showing my shoulders?". I was really impressed with my daughters answer. She said, "no, thats ok, we just want to look modest". Then she went on and explained what that meant (to her). I really think you paint the young generation in a wrong light. I actually think they have better hearts than when I was that age. I wasn't professing, and I probably would have been embarrassed for my friends to even know I was heading to some weird 2X2 church. I think that's the result of teaching principles rather than rules. I'm impressed with the young kids at church--their answers and their behavior/dress--and realize the difference is that I was raised with rules, not principles, and these kids are learning principles at Sunday school, church, and from their parents.
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Post by kurtzphil69 on Jul 30, 2015 14:28:22 GMT -5
Why should a worker preaching in South Asia or Africa come to the US/Canada/Britain/Australia/NZ and berate the more developed countries for not upholding the standard? Why? Maybe it is a shock to see shorter skirts, blue jeans, more jewelry etc. than they saw when they last preached or visited there?? Exactly! Unfortunately, so many believers and faith leaders tend to lose site of what the 'Standard' really and truly is...The 'standard' can be whittled down into a set of rules; do's and/or don't's and that really is a shame, but probably a tool of the enemy's soul...just simplify it for folks into a set of rules and no one really has to come to their own God-given convictions on the matter...no one has to search the Scriptures, pray, meditate...all they have to do is follow the rules and 'uphold the standard'...easy! But I cannot find ANYWHERE in Scripture that it was EVER promised it would be easy or that is would come easy. In fact the opposite seems to be the case. However, Christ did state that His Yoke was easy and His burden was light...to me this means when we stop trusting in our own will power and trust in God's will, we shouldn't feel so burdened down... See, people try to do it using their own will power, and the human will can be very strong and tenacious at times. But that is NOT how the walk with Christ was designed to be walked...And employing one's own will power to get something accomplished is often played out by applying a set of rules to go by...however, God's Way goes much deeper than a set of rules. The 'standard' is not just about outward appearances and social norms; code of conduct: no you will not find the 'rules' of this fellowship written out and updated every five years like a policy and procedure manual...but the unwritten rules are there, none-the-less. It seems to me these unwritten rules apply to every age group, social class, gender. No one is totally exempt from the possibility of succumbing to a set of rules to guide their Christian walk.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 15:05:14 GMT -5
Katie and I are members of an outreach program. Donated supplies and basic food items are placed in bags, they are carried in our vehicles and upon seeing someone apparently in need, we stop and give them a bag. It works well, and if all they are really doing is looking for "money" to feed a habit, we are not contributing to that. None yet have turned down the offer of a "bag."
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2015 17:11:38 GMT -5
"We" in the West have seriously lost sight of how "bad" we are compared to previous generations. But we can gain an insight through immigrants from poor countries. How often people find, in having a joke with these immigrants (traditional Catholics, Muslims etc.)that the joke isn't so funny. These immigrants are like a reminder of our ancestors point of view. They find our dirty talk, our dress, our attitudes towards sex etc. highly offensive. But "we" have gotten used to "changing social attitudes."I think you're wrong Bert. Yesterday my 13 year old daughter - after volleyball practice (beach/sand) asked if one of her team-mate/friend, who had never been to church, could come to meeting with us and spend the night. We have to jam from the beach, 1/2 hour to meeting, and barely make it in time after practice to Wednesday night meeting. So on the way, her friend was wearing a dress with wide straps for sleeves (not spaghetti straps). She looked over at my daughter and said "am I not suppose to be showing my shoulders?". I was really impressed with my daughters answer. She said, "no, thats ok, we just want to look modest". Then she went on and explained what that meant (to her). I really think you paint the young generation in a wrong light. I actually think they have better hearts than when I was that age. I wasn't professing, and I probably would have been embarrassed for my friends to even know I was heading to some weird 2X2 church. I agree JD.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2015 17:15:49 GMT -5
Katie and I are members of an outreach program. Donated supplies and basic food items are placed in bags, they are carried in our vehicles and upon seeing someone apparently in need, we stop and give them a bag. It works well, and if all they are really doing is looking for "money" to feed a habit, we are not contributing to that. None yet have turned down the offer of a "bag." That's a good idea. We do that with warm winter coats in the first real cold time. Go to thrift stores and buy up about 10 of them, sometimes more, and then go cruising the streets looking for people who just have light jackets on. Have handed out sleeping bags before too because some people don't like coming inside no matter how cold it is and in our neck of the woods, it gets darn cold. We support a program 'Inn from the cold' and lots of homeless take advantage of it, but the ones who just don't feel comfortable around other people won't come in so they need extra to keep them warm.
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Post by swarupa on Jul 30, 2015 18:41:30 GMT -5
perhaps a good tablespoon of castor oil would do
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 1:39:19 GMT -5
Having consumed over $1,000,000 in medically related loses, now I attempt to live on $1,100.00 per month SS, supplemented by an occasional sale of a puppy or two. The ONLY way I know that my paltry gift to the poor can be of any good to them IS by combining it with others gifts and then directing it sans administration costs to be used for those in need. True, it wasn't always so, and when able I used to meet greater needs.
Still, I do remember once offering a full container full of items to workers in Africa for distribution among the needy there in an anonymous manner. They were literally horrified at my suggestion. The one declining my offer died from altitude sickness climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro a very short time thereafter. In the US it is possible to gather many second hand items which could ease the discomfort and unmet needs of many in such places. Pity so few believe in doing so, instead expecting a government to do it through tax dollars largely winding up in the hands of the already advantaged in those countries. why was there a need to mention The one declining my offer died from altitude sickness climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro a very short time thereafter.?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 1:46:24 GMT -5
Katie and I are members of an outreach program. Donated supplies and basic food items are placed in bags, they are carried in our vehicles and upon seeing someone apparently in need, we stop and give them a bag. It works well, and if all they are really doing is looking for "money" to feed a habit, we are not contributing to that. None yet have turned down the offer of a "bag." very admirable:)
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tom
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Post by tom on Jul 31, 2015 3:20:10 GMT -5
During convention visiting rounds, sometimes these old fossils will come to the US, Britain, Canada or Australian conventions and complain about the lowered standards in their native country during their time overseas. I wonder if Review 005 doesn't criticize the Kiwis for not being sincere like those in Pakistan and other south Asian lands? You obviously don't know review !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 3:26:22 GMT -5
Quote - "I think you're wrong Bert. Yesterday my 13 year old daughter - after volleyball practice (beach/sand) asked if one of her team-mate/friend, who had never been to church, could come to meeting with us and spend the night. We have to jam from the beach, 1/2 hour to meeting, and barely make it in time after practice to Wednesday night meeting. So on the way, her friend was wearing a dress with wide straps for sleeves (not spaghetti straps). She looked over at my daughter and said "am I not suppose to be showing my shoulders?". I was really impressed with my daughters answer. She said, "no, thats ok, we just want to look modest". Then she went on and explained what that meant (to her). I really think you paint the young generation in a wrong light. I actually think they have better hearts than when I was that age. I wasn't professing, and I probably would have been embarrassed for my friends to even know I was heading to some weird 2X2 church."
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