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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 8:53:23 GMT -5
During convention visiting rounds, sometimes these old fossils will come to the US, Britain, Canada or Australian conventions and complain about the lowered standards in their native country during their time overseas. I wonder if Review 005 doesn't criticize the Kiwis for not being sincere like those in Pakistan and other south Asian lands?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 15:08:22 GMT -5
if you poke the bear don't cry when he bites you...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 15:31:43 GMT -5
Many of them especially over 70 are in the dark on what life is like in 2015 US, Canada, Britain, Oz, New Zealand etc. They spend time in the undeveloped rural villages in some cases (especially south Asia and Africa) and lose track with reality. I remember Jack Oliver, a British worker in Madagasacr, who feared that the Truth could become a denomination due to the social network sites about The Truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2015 15:49:53 GMT -5
Perhaps some flee to other countries believing it will be easier to escape historical and/or moral or even knowledge accountability, while achieving greater place, themselves. I believe I know some for whom one or all of these things are true...
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Post by bubbles on Jul 26, 2015 18:07:12 GMT -5
Many of them especially over 70 are in the dark on what life is like in 2015 US, Canada, Britain, Oz, New Zealand etc. They spend time in the undeveloped rural villages in some cases (especially south Asia and Africa) and lose track with reality. I remember Jack Oliver, a British worker in Madagasacr, who feared that the Truth could become a denomination due to the social network sites about The Truth. It already was a denomination.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 26, 2015 18:10:59 GMT -5
Many of them especially over 70 are in the dark on what life is like in 2015 US, Canada, Britain, Oz, New Zealand etc. They spend time in the undeveloped rural villages in some cases (especially south Asia and Africa) and lose track with reality. I remember Jack Oliver, a British worker in Madagasacr, who feared that the Truth could become a denomination due to the social network sites about The Truth. Having worked with indigenous people and their spirituality. Im wondering how workers approach and discuss the spiritual side of life and it problems.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 1:00:44 GMT -5
As people become more materialistic, it becomes harder to preach the Gospel. People become more interested in things rather than people. So Workers have to go to third World countries, to find those who want to listen. It is a bit sad for older Workers as they feel they have a good story to tell. You wonder if it is as relevant today as what it was 100 years ago. Those early Workers were very dedicated, and the message did appeal to many, including our Parents. However times do change, both for good and bad. I have never felt it was deceit, as their message was an alternate to the main stream Churches. They were sincere in that belief, and I can understand that. The message held up at that time, but it will not cut it today.
When I was growing up I became very fond of a young Worker who stayed in our home many times. We used to work together on the farm, and there was a great bond between us. He went to New Guinea, and came back after a couple of years, very disappointed. He said that the Natives were looking for material help, clothes, food, money, etc. They were at a disadvantage as other Churches were providing that, as well as spiritual. He tried to convince the Overseer at the time, that maybe they could give some help with food and clothes. However the answer was no, so he left the work. He married another sister Worker, and as far as I know,lived a happy life.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2015 13:03:40 GMT -5
As people become more materialistic, it becomes harder to preach the Gospel. People become more interested in things rather than people. So Workers have to go to third World countries, to find those who want to listen. It is a bit sad for older Workers as they feel they have a good story to tell. You wonder if it is as relevant today as what it was 100 years ago. Those early Workers were very dedicated, and the message did appeal to many, including our Parents. However times do change, both for good and bad. I have never felt it was deceit, as their message was an alternate to the main stream Churches. They were sincere in that belief, and I can understand that. The message held up at that time, but it will not cut it today. When I was growing up I became very fond of a young Worker who stayed in our home many times. We used to work together on the farm, and there was a great bond between us. He went to New Guinea, and came back after a couple of years, very disappointed. He said that the Natives were looking for material help, clothes, food, money, etc. They were at a disadvantage as other Churches were providing that, as well as spiritual. He tried to convince the Overseer at the time, that maybe they could give some help with food and clothes. However the answer was no, so he left the work. He married another sister Worker, and as far as I know,lived a happy life. The Salvation Army actually recognized this and made changes to how they spread their religion. They recognized that they couldn't address spiritual matters with a scared and hungry person. You had to take care of those needs first then you might have a chance at addressing the spiritual aspects of their life. Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs states this quite clearly. Until the Physiological aspects of survival are addressed a person cannot focus on higher level needs. www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:09:24 GMT -5
As people become more materialistic, it becomes harder to preach the Gospel. People become more interested in things rather than people. So Workers have to go to third World countries, to find those who want to listen. It is a bit sad for older Workers as they feel they have a good story to tell. You wonder if it is as relevant today as what it was 100 years ago. Those early Workers were very dedicated, and the message did appeal to many, including our Parents. However times do change, both for good and bad. I have never felt it was deceit, as their message was an alternate to the main stream Churches. They were sincere in that belief, and I can understand that. The message held up at that time, but it will not cut it today. When I was growing up I became very fond of a young Worker who stayed in our home many times. We used to work together on the farm, and there was a great bond between us. He went to New Guinea, and came back after a couple of years, very disappointed. He said that the Natives were looking for material help, clothes, food, money, etc. They were at a disadvantage as other Churches were providing that, as well as spiritual. He tried to convince the Overseer at the time, that maybe they could give some help with food and clothes. However the answer was no, so he left the work. He married another sister Worker, and as far as I know,lived a happy life. Nice quote Redback.
Jesus fed those who were with him for three days. But it was done for a distinct purpose, "Of a truth a prophet has come into the world" the Jews said. When these Jews came to Jesus the second time Jesus had nothing for them except hard words they couldn't bear. But, silver and gold have we none. We offer the Gospel. And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:17:26 GMT -5
As an aside to this: churches are declining about one percent a year, maybe more. What isn't being measured it how much they are doctrinally declining - hollowing out. Church keep offering people more and more non-church things, watering down demands, lowering standards etc.. Still hasn't slowed the decline. An Anglican church here had a sign saying "Free movies" for the town's youth, plus tea and cakes. What hope have they got? It's a race to the bottom. Churches are competing against secular institutions, not only becoming more secular, but failing to compete in the process.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 13:31:16 GMT -5
As an aside to this: churches are declining about one percent a year, maybe more. What isn't being measured it how much they are doctrinally declining - hollowing out. Church keep offering people more and more non-church things, watering down demands, lowering standards etc.. Still hasn't slowed the decline. An Anglican church here had a sign saying "Free movies" for the town's youth, plus tea and cakes. What hope have they got? It's a race to the bottom. Churches are competing against secular institutions, not only becoming more secular, but failing to compete in the process. Quite likely this is the reason "denominalationalizm" is falling in yours, Bert, as well as other denominations. You, like some others, seem to know nothing about the myriads of us who simply worship our God, enjoying fellowship with many also believing only in Him as we age.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 27, 2015 17:53:17 GMT -5
As people become more materialistic, it becomes harder to preach the Gospel. People become more interested in things rather than people. So Workers have to go to third World countries, to find those who want to listen. It is a bit sad for older Workers as they feel they have a good story to tell. You wonder if it is as relevant today as what it was 100 years ago. Those early Workers were very dedicated, and the message did appeal to many, including our Parents. However times do change, both for good and bad. I have never felt it was deceit, as their message was an alternate to the main stream Churches. They were sincere in that belief, and I can understand that. The message held up at that time, but it will not cut it today. When I was growing up I became very fond of a young Worker who stayed in our home many times. We used to work together on the farm, and there was a great bond between us. He went to New Guinea, and came back after a couple of years, very disappointed. He said that the Natives were looking for material help, clothes, food, money, etc. They were at a disadvantage as other Churches were providing that, as well as spiritual. He tried to convince the Overseer at the time, that maybe they could give some help with food and clothes. However the answer was no, so he left the work. He married another sister Worker, and as far as I know,lived a happy life. Nice quote Redback.
Jesus fed those who were with him for three days. But it was done for a distinct purpose, "Of a truth a prophet has come into the world" the Jews said. When these Jews came to Jesus the second time Jesus had nothing for them except hard words they couldn't bear. But, silver and gold have we none. We offer the Gospel. And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives. And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motivesCan you give an example of what type of people would be wrong, and should not have a chance to listen to the gospel message? Perhaps show which people in the bible Jesus turned away?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 18:01:04 GMT -5
Quote - "And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives
Can you give an example of what type of people would be wrong, and should not have a chance to listen to the gospel message? Perhaps show which people in the bible Jesus turned away?"
What type? People who wouldn't respond to the Gospel. Not have a chance? Those who refused to come and listen. Which people Jesus turned away? Those who came looking for him after the feeding of the five thousand. He offered them nothing, evaded their questions and gave them "hard sayings" He knew they wouldn't accept. Some see the Gospel merely as feeding the hungry with bread and healing the sick. The other side of the coin, the bearing of His cross, is the part most don't want to hear.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:06:23 GMT -5
Bert, you are my mate, and I hate to disagree with you. However I find it highly impractical to get around with a cross on my back. You just think about it. All of your time, energy and complete concentration would be taken up with carrying the thing, you would not be free to do anything worthwhile in life. It would render you useless. You would be of all people most miserable. And that is not the way God intended us to live.
Think it may be time 2x2's dropped that line from their message, it is not required.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:10:12 GMT -5
Couldn't we just strap it to the car roof? Maybe get a trailer? Caster wheels can help.
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Post by howitis on Jul 27, 2015 19:10:20 GMT -5
Once heard a very wel educated, well travelled person speak on these matters....he said that no matter where you go whether the country and people are rich or poor they all have one thing in common.....they always want more!!! Have heard the same from a worker who spent much of their time in less developed countries, but also had travelled to more affluent countries. Guess it gets down to the fact the flesh not easily satisfied, but our soul........?? What of that man who had much '....Soul thou hast much goods laid up.....'he obviously knew he had a soul, but made little provision for it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:11:38 GMT -5
Bert, you are my mate, and I hate to disagree with you. However I find it highly impractical to get around with a cross on my back. You just think about it. All of your time, energy and complete concentration would be taken up with carrying the thing, you would not be free to do anything worthwhile in life. It would render you useless. You would be of all people most miserable. And that is not the way God intended us to live. Think it may be time 2x2's dropped that line from their message, it is not required. Mat_10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:14:15 GMT -5
Bert why bother with it in the first place, better to burn it as fire wood. That would get rid of it. After all it is not needed. If you had a cross on your back, your hands would not be free to drink wine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:15:51 GMT -5
You could always take something so significant, so precious to some, and just turn it into a trinket you can hang on your ears?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 19:32:21 GMT -5
Wally jewelry has been available for many years, perhaps even more so in Christ's day. Many people wear a cross around their neck, not hard to do, does not render them useless.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 27, 2015 19:51:17 GMT -5
Quote - "And the Gospel has to stand on its own merits, otherwise you attract the wrong people with wrong motives Can you give an example of what type of people would be wrong, and should not have a chance to listen to the gospel message? Perhaps show which people in the bible Jesus turned away?" What type? People who wouldn't respond to the Gospel.[/b] How do you know they wouldn't respond to the gospel message if they don't listen to it? ?? If they aren't invited, then how can they refuse?? Maybe you read about that differently than I did. Jesus had first went away alone to mourn his friend John, who had just had his head whacked off by order of Herod (it was a birthday present to his girlfriend). The five thousand searched him out and what did Jesus do? Nope. It isn't recorded that he preached to them at all. What he did was have compassion on them and heal the sick. And yep....then, he fed them. This particular type of 'Christian' is what you seem to be claiming a church church should turn away. You know..... the 'loaves and fishes' people, who Jesus welcomed compassionately . And then, I don't see where you are seeing Jesus evading questions and giving out hard sayings to the regular folks. In the same chapter (this is from Matthew 14), it is recorded that he crossed over the lake to Gennesaret (skipping the boat ride, he walked on water part way so he could spook his disciples in the middle of stormy weather), and once there what did he do? Nope, no preaching is recorded.... again.... however when he was recognized, the word went out and people brought all their sick to him to be healed. No hard words there, just compassion once again. Do you suppose that might just be part of the gospel message? You know, to take care of people's physical needs, with no strings attached? I think a lot of people believe that feeding the hungry and ministering to physical needs is a large part of what the gospel message is about. SO WHAT if those people don't join up with the church who may be feeding them? I am curious as to just what you think 'the bearing of His cross' means. Whenever I hear people refer to it, I wonder if they really understand what that means to an individual.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:01:05 GMT -5
Scot, in my opinion your post should be chosen as post of the week! It reflects what many of us believe simply IS the very basis of true belief in Christ and His teachings. Help, love and grace manifest to fellow man. Thank you for expressing it so eloquently.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 27, 2015 20:14:56 GMT -5
Scot, in my opinion your post should be chosen as post of the week! It reflects what many of us believe simply IS the very basis of true belief in Christ and His teachings. Help, love and grace manifest to fellow man. Thank you for expressing it so eloquently. I think I might get called on making my own post a post of the week.... LOL! When I take a look around the world, it is those churches who go out with 'loaves and fishes' to take the gospel message that seem to do the most good in the world. They go to undeveloped countries, set up ophanages/hospitals/dig wells/set up basic infrastructure/teach farming methods/etc AND set up a church where people can learn about that great man Jesus. Same in the developed countries, such as here in the US. They set up soup kitchens, provide shelter, and along the way share the gospel message. However, they don't turn people away because they don't listen to the gospel message. I think it has something to do with what it means to us personally in regard to OUR walk with Christ, not with how someone else is going to react to the gospel message. It is hard for me to understand how a church (the people/denomination) can deliberately disregard the physical well being of people, when it is pretty obvious (to me) that it was a pretty central part of the message of Jesus. I don't believe that there are many churches DON'T do some sort of community outreach for those who are disadvantaged. And...... not to sure about that eloquent stuff......
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:18:04 GMT -5
The "wrong sort of people" was summed up nicely by Redback. In his case it was people who would come to your services if you offered them material incentives. Bearing of the cross means enduring the trials and tribulations of service - things which Jesus and company said "must come" into your life if you give your life to Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:41:02 GMT -5
Bert, my Worker friend did not say they were "the wrong sort of people". He was disappointed that they were not able to provide the loaves and fishes that Scott mentions. My friend was a very compassionate, sensible man, and realised that the people needed more than spiritual help, they needed natural as well. Other Churches were doing that. When he asked his Overseer the answer was no. That was a bigger disappoiuntment, he left the work.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:47:45 GMT -5
Bert, my Worker friend did not say they were "the wrong sort of people". He was disappointed that they were not able to provide the loaves and fishes that Scott mentions. My friend was a very compassionate, sensible man, and realised that the people needed more than spiritual help, they needed natural as well. Other Churches were doing that. When he asked his Overseer the answer was no. That was a bigger disappoiuntment, he left the work. Seems your Worker friend could have joined some Govt or International food aid service like World Vision, US Agency for International Development, Oxfam etc.. They are the professionals.
ps I doubt though that giving food to people all the time teaches them self sufficiency.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 27, 2015 20:49:37 GMT -5
The "wrong sort of people" was summed up nicely by Redback. In his case it was people who would come to your services if you offered them material incentives. Bearing of the cross means enduring the trials and tribulations of service - things which Jesus and company said "must come" into your life if you give your life to Christ. You mean people who come to a church looking for healing and food? And..... in my opinion, bearing a cross refers to living one's life in a manner shown to us by Jesus. To me, that means looking out for others....without restricting oneself to only those who become what WE want them to be, but rather reaching out to those in need, regardless as to whether they are receptive to the gospel message. The churches I was referring to above don't use food and medical services to get them into church services. They use food and medical services to take care of basic needs. The church services are incidental to that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 20:54:25 GMT -5
Yes, there's a fine line between people coming to your church and gaining material support, and people coming to your church FOR material support. And yes, I agree with you, "bearing a cross refers to living one's life in a manner shown to us by Jesus." Off the top of my head, I recall Jesus saying that "offenses must come, but woe to those by whom these offenses come." That word "must" is often on my mind - an example of something that's a part of your service. If you are popular, if you are not being offended or rejected, then you aren't living as Jesus said you will live.
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