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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 1:24:15 GMT -5
Hello again, Elisabeth I think everyone knows how I feel about the cross and the trinity by now. But I am trying not to get pulled into it all the time. Because then the whole thread erupts again. But I've noticed on here many seem to think their church is right, and many say others are wrong. In other words they have the right way. But I look at it like this, it's not the religion that's the way. It's the life and that life and light was in Jesus, he is the way. And all those who truly love God with all their hearts and follow Jesus will be blessed with the spirit. And I will follow my heart and believe what I feel is right by God to me. And whilst I am feeling God in my heart through love and guidance and revelation and understanding and correcting me through my conscience then i know he's with me. And I know that Christ is giving me the strength to overcome. Because the things that were so important to me before are going from my heart. And when the wrong things in me raise their wicked head again. In comes the conscience which I believe is the spirit. And it comes in much stronger and quicker than it did before I gave my heart to God. And I know I'm being put right. And that I have to stop before it gets a hold of me again. So whilst I am feeling, hearing and seeing God, then I will carry on, and hope and pray that God through the spirit will put more and more of my flesh to death, and give me more strength in the spirit to not only overcome daily in my own heart, but to bring the life of Christ by the spirit of God to others. Gods people aren't in one religion, they are in one way. And that's the way of Jesus the holy son of the living God, and his sheep hear his voice. There is good and bad everywhere, in all religions and right down to each individual heart, and its what we do once we hear his voice. Do we truly follow him and leave off our old life, or do we hold on to our lives and the world and speak of God but deny him in our lives. For its not the hearers of the word, but the doers of the word. And only God knows our hearts. So I leave my life in Gods hands, because only he knows my heart. James 1 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Mary I'll leave you to it. Just remember that if we claim to follow the God of the Bible, it must be how he has revealed himself, not one who is a creation of our own imagination. We need to continue to wrestle with the things we don't understand, not just dismiss them. For the record, my church is not the point. I don't care where you go to church or fellowship. What you believe is of importance to me, not where you go. That's up to you. Yes, Jesus is the way. That excludes ALL human groups as being "the way". There are true believers in many difference places and churches. Take care. xxE. Quote: remember that if we claim to follow the God of the Bible, it must be how he has revealed himself, not one who is a creation of our own imagination. Unquote! That's correct, and God of the Bible has not revealed in his bible that Jesus is God the son. It's not there, so I'm not imagining it. It says the son of God. So I'm not going by my imagination!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 1:34:24 GMT -5
God the son is nowhere in the bible, if it is show me and I will believe you. Written exactly like that, God the son! You have been shown things in the bible and then assign new meanings to them to support your beliefs. Would that be different in this case? I know you like to keep the debate going rational, but really i'm not going there. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I believe that Jesus is the son of God, not God the son. Others believe differently and you don't believe any God exists. And that's fine, and you all have to go by what's right in your own hearts. Just as I do in mine. Whether you and others think it's in my imagination or not!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 3:05:16 GMT -5
Quote: remember that if we claim to follow the God of the Bible, it must be how he has revealed himself, not one who is a creation of our own imagination. Unquote! That's correct, and God of the Bible has not revealed in his bible that Jesus is God the son. It's not there, so I'm not imagining it. It says the son of God. So I'm not going by my imagination! With respect you are - Jesus is called God many, many times in the bible. It's there in black and white. You can ignore these many, many references or imagine they just don't exist. But it doesn't change the facts. It's got a fair bit to do with what happened on the cross....but I know you don't like that bit either. And you can ignore that there is no God the son in the bible. I'm not going here with you anymore. You seem like you just want to argue!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 3:30:44 GMT -5
And you can ignore that there is no God the son in the bible. I'm not going here with you anymore. You seem like you just want to argue! I've said many times that the term "God the son" is not in the bible. It's pretty obvious however that Jesus is the son of the father and there are oodles of times in the bible that Jesus is called God. So it's just a convenient term to differentiate from the father and Holy Spirit. I'm not wanting to argue - I just have a problem with folk saying that Jesus isn't called God in the bible when He clearly is. I don't have a problem with anyone and feel that we have the right to freewill. I shouldn't have to be conformed to your beliefs Ross. And, where as you say you clearly see that Jesus is God the son, I clearly see the Jesus is the son of God. And that without the father he can do nothing, and that God is the God of Jesus also. He said I go to my God and your God. I can go on and on. But Ross it's wrong for us to go on like this. If you have a problem with my beliefs, so be it. I don't agree with what you believe, but you are entitled to believe in what you feel is right for you. God will be my judge not you or any other man.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2015 8:03:38 GMT -5
What are you saying here Rational? I think what I am saying, and maryhig and I have talked about this, is that when the bible text says that god ordered the death or every living thing that when maryhig reads it she believes that it is not really god saying to kill the women, children, cattle, etc. but it is a spiritual fight against evil.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2015 8:05:48 GMT -5
You have been shown things in the bible and then assign new meanings to them to support your beliefs. Would that be different in this case? I know you like to keep the debate going rational, but really i'm not going there. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, and I believe that Jesus is the son of God, not God the son. Others believe differently and you don't believe any God exists. And that's fine, and you all have to go by what's right in your own hearts. Just as I do in mine. Whether you and others think it's in my imagination or not! I think it is your belief. I was not debating I was pointing out that is someone found text that they believe stated something very clearly that it might be your belief that it had a completely different meaning.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 6, 2015 8:24:53 GMT -5
What are you saying here Rational? I think what I am saying, and maryhig and I have talked about this, is that when the bible text says that god ordered the death or every living thing that when maryhig reads it she believes that it is really god saying to kill the women, children, cattle, etc. but it is a spiritual fight against evil. And the reason I believe this rational is because I look at Jesus, and he wouldn't kill or hurt anyone and he was in the express image of God. But saying that. If i had children, and people were coming to hurt them, I would grab what ever was there and defend them. I couldn't let anyone hurt a child. So I can understand if Gods people fought back in this instance. But I can't see anyone of God just randomly killing people including children when God said thou shalt not kill. But that's how I feel.
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Post by Mary on Aug 6, 2015 11:33:28 GMT -5
It is Nathan who calls Jesus God the Son. Ross like me appears to not seem comfortable with the term and says it is not in the Bible. He does point out that Jesus is called God at times in the Bible though. Call it the Trinity or whatever term you want but those verses are clearly there. Ross I appreciate your balanced view.
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Post by jondough on Aug 6, 2015 12:35:02 GMT -5
Nathan I appreciate you and Ross have acknowledged a littel while back that people can have a deep personal living relationship with God without using all this trinity, God the Son type type terminology. If guys like you and Ross want to use non Biblical terminology that is fine. I don't need to or wish to but if you need to and wish to then that is 'neither here nor there' with me. I do feel pity and sad for those who use it and then displease God by perhaps even unconsciously looking down on/belitting/despising people who use Biblical terminology only. I've said this in that last couple of weeks or so, but it does seem that the main difference is simply terminology. I do have one question for you Review. The other main difference seems to be that most F&W believe that our Father is NOT equal to his Son or HP. They are in subjection to him, and obedient to him. Follow where he guides them. Our Father is head over all of it. This to me is the main difference. Without turning this into a Trinity thread, do you see the Father as equal, or head over it all? Nathan, this is for Review only, as I don't want to hijack this thread with cut & paste.
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Post by rational on Aug 6, 2015 13:29:33 GMT -5
And the reason I believe this rational is because I look at Jesus, and he wouldn't kill or hurt anyone and he was in the express image of God. But saying that. If i had children, and people were coming to hurt them, I would grab what ever was there and defend them. I couldn't let anyone hurt a child. So I can understand if Gods people fought back in this instance. But I can't see anyone of God just randomly killing people including children when God said thou shalt not kill. But that's how I feel. I wasn't questioning you I was just explaining why I had posted what I did. However, I think you need to look into the more exact meaning of the word 'kill' in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". It was concerned with unlawful homicide. If god said it was OK, in the OT, it was no longer murder. There are just too many times recounting god killing to say they were all meaning something else. For example, the death of David and Bathsheba's son was stated to be an act of god. God caused the child's death and justified it as a punishment for David (and probably Bathsheba as well) for his sins of adultery and murder. Of course, you would have to question why the laws that God put in place regarding adultery were overlooked and David and Bathsheba were not stoned to death but stoning the King may have been problematic.
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Post by fred on Aug 6, 2015 23:26:47 GMT -5
I don't know what 'trinity folk' you have been mixing with but I have never met any who deny the supremacy of the Father.
I think the misunderstanding comes when they say the Son exercises the same (equal) powers as the Father but is in subjection to him. This may be why some like to refer to him as 'God the Son'.
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Post by howitis on Aug 7, 2015 0:18:00 GMT -5
Caution, Caution, Caution Is it wise of us to base our faith on the 'trinity' term? What if it was just a poor interpretation? I love Maryhig's posts whilst not in agreement with the terminology there is definitely something very, very agreeable about her Spirit!! Some have studiously put down quotes, done research tried to explain, some have even become just a little aggro, but Maryhig......content to have what is revealed to her by God.....just beautiful!!!!
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Post by rational on Aug 7, 2015 1:20:22 GMT -5
Caution, Caution, Caution Is it wise of us to base our faith on the 'trinity' term? What if it was just a poor interpretation? I love Maryhig's posts whilst not in agreement with the terminology there is definitely something very, very agreeable about her Spirit!! Some have studiously put down quotes, done research tried to explain, some have even become just a little aggro, but Maryhig......content to have what is revealed to her by God.....just beautiful!!!! It would be interesting to know if maryhig agrees with this description: The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 7, 2015 2:09:10 GMT -5
Caution, Caution, Caution Is it wise of us to base our faith on the 'trinity' term? What if it was just a poor interpretation? I love Maryhig's posts whilst not in agreement with the terminology there is definitely something very, very agreeable about her Spirit!! Some have studiously put down quotes, done research tried to explain, some have even become just a little aggro, but Maryhig......content to have what is revealed to her by God.....just beautiful!!!! It would be interesting to know if maryhig agrees with this description: The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit. Here's what I think and agree with rational. God is spirit, I am flesh, and there is nothing good in me. All good comes from God. Anything that howitis agrees with in me is in spirit not in flesh. Just as I feel agreement in spirit with her and others here. My fleshly mind and heart has to go to allow Gods holy spirit to live, the more I listen to my conscience and deny sin in my heart the stronger that spirit becomes in me and Christ is giving me the strength by the spirit to overcome. And the more Gods love is growing within my heart, the more it is replacing my sins, which are being cast out. And that love in my heart wants to reach out to everyone, because God loves us all. And then the stronger we become in God, and the more we give our heart to him and love him and follow Jesus, then the more God reveals his heart to us, giving us wisdom and understanding and strengthening us in our hearts. And as we are getting stronger then we become a tabernacle, a living temple of the living God. Where he dwells with his son and we are not dead anymore but alive in the spirit, we are witnesses alive in God because Christ is resurrected in our hearts. And he walks with us through our life, if we keep our faith and love God more than others and more than our own life also. We must decrease and he must increase. Thus we are showing Christ though us in our lives. Living everyday to please our heavily father. Rational, I am just dust, I'm the dust that Satan has a hold of. The flesh is what he feeds off (if i allow him). God is love and his spirit and has nothing to do with Satan, our fleshy sins are an abomination to God. So our flesh has to go. I have to die to my flesh every day so God can live in me and Christ can live through me. If Gods spirit isn't with me and I don't have the guidance of Christ by the spirit, then I am nothing. I am nothing without God. I am flesh. It's only Christ sent by God who is saving me daily if I take up my cross and deny myself daily and love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength. And endure to the end. And the only way to God is through Christ. I am nothing without God. Without him I am dead in my sins.
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Post by howitis on Aug 7, 2015 18:04:57 GMT -5
If its not Childlike......it can never become Christlike!!!!
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Post by rational on Aug 7, 2015 20:57:01 GMT -5
Here is a challenge for you! See if you can write of all you wish to write of God without once using the extra Biblical trinity terms. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul could; Can you? Actually, there is no way to know if M, M, L, J, P, & P wrote all they wished to write of god. You can only determine what they did write. Or at least what someone decided they wrote. They might have expounded on the the trinity using all sorts of terms and that writing was expunged only to be brought to light by the likes of Aquinas. There are all sorts of magical things that go on!
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Post by Mary on Aug 7, 2015 23:36:51 GMT -5
You have a great spirit and a gift of teaching, Ross. Your Bible knowledge and truth is a credit especially since we learned that those who went to an Anglican church had nothing spiritually. You have certainly shown this is not the case. Don't listen to those who would try to discredit and put you down. Let them stand in amazement of you.
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 1:51:56 GMT -5
Review my friend, everyone needs their back scratched sometimes. Would you like me to scratch yours sometime?
I have answered your questions many times today. Please for the sake of others on this board don't make me post it again. I have been positive in many posts about the early workers and their role in attempting to be like the apostles. Sorry you did not feel like your back was scratched here. As I have written on a PM I admire the sacrifice you made in going to far off lands but staying in an apartment however, I might add and having a money card is not my idea of the apostolic ministry although I have no problem with it but if one says they go without purse then that is how I would expect them to go. I would class you as a missionary although you don't need my approval or opinion on that. People come back from the mission field after being away for a number of years just like you. Again, great. (Scratch, scratch)
My pastor is a pastor and teacher, he is not an evangelist or missionary although he would be good at both.
Again I will post Ephesians 4 which I have posted a couple of times saying this is how it is in many churches including the one I go to.
EPH 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 8, 2015 1:53:27 GMT -5
Ross, Some time ago you made some time ago you threatened to pursue me offline, even to the extent of saying you would make an international flight to do so. Things continue to bubble inside you. This last post of yours would typical of your small minded unpleasantness, focussing on a person rather than the topic. I've observed that TMB is a place where some ex members use it mainly 'vent' their dissatisfaction and rejection of the church/fellowship. Amazingly the church of which their mother and other family members still belong to! Encouragingly other ex members are respectful and good people with integrity. That doesn't mean they don't post plainly and honestly of their experience in the fellowship. I have a good relationship with a number of them and they have helpful input. I shrug your personally threatening and unpleasant posts off and soon forget them. You do have my pity, compassion and prayers; as I consider what works within you that makes you post these unpleasant statements of ill motive. The acid is doing more harm to the vessel it is stored in than that which it is poured out on. Well Review maybe you should re-read some of your own posts ! The thread on Domestic Violence would be a good place to start !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 8, 2015 2:04:11 GMT -5
Here is a reminder for you Mr Review ! Talk about ex's venting !
Post Options
. Post by Roselyn T on Jul 13, 2015 at 12:11pm
review005 Avatar
Jul 12, 2015 at 9:22pm review005 said:
Roselyn T Avatar
Jul 12, 2015 at 2:51pm Roselyn T said: Review, maybe you should have read what I said to Virgo a few pages back !
Just to clarify, I was 4 years old when I first saw my mother abused Review ! 4 YEARS OLD ! What do you propose a 4 YEAR OLD do ? To clarify: You said it happened for all of their 25 years of married life.
Did you remain a 4 year old for the whole of their 25 years of married life?
Did you not do anything for all those years?
Did you turn a blind eye for 25 years to a mother in distress that you knew about? it. I'm not talking about strangers but people who you are supposed to care about.
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2015 11:23:20 GMT -5
<SNIP> ...o uphold in its place. Nice clear definitions of what each of you mean by apostles vs. disciples might be beneficial.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 8, 2015 11:44:06 GMT -5
As I've already stated in past posts God's plan is for an apostolic ministry until the end of time. Jesus makes that pretty clear in John 17.
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 14:16:58 GMT -5
Review either you have trouble reading or understanding or both.
Pastors are not apostles or what today is called a missionary. A missionary is one who like an apostle leaves home and goes seeking the lost. A pastor stays home and tends to the sheep. Do elders leave home, no. Nor do pastors.
I did not put workers down. I pointed out that the workers today are different from the early workers who went from place to place as the spirit lead. They were not staionary being placed in one area where they lived for a year or more. A change was made to the workers ministry.
It is simple, a pastor is not an apostle or missionary. And secondly the workers today go out differently from the early workers who were missionaries or evangelists. Today they take the role of pastor.
Thirdly there's many missionaries who leave home and go to the mission field and full fill the great commission. That is not a pastors role. You are not unique and you do not full fill many of the requirements in those verse you quoted which I could well quote to you. I wonder if you really understand somethiny as simple as that.
I have made it clear. Pastors are not missionaries and the workers today go out differently from the early workers. Today's workers are stationary and live and mix with their own taking the role of pastor. Early workers went everywhere preaching the word taking the role of evangelist or missionary. If you find the truth offensive then maybe you should ask yourself why.
If you can't then there's something very wrong.
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 14:32:49 GMT -5
Seems as if you consider yourself an apostle, review. The first link in the chain as you call it. Today they are called missionaries as the 12 are considered the apostles. And again I say pastors are not apostles they do not go to the lost sheep. An apostle or today's term for that being a missionary or evangelists do that. The missionaries are there in the church today and were there well before your church started in 1900.
Its so simple and you fail to understand still claiming that pastors should go out like missionaries or evangelists. Missionaries or evangelists go out and find the sheep and bring them in. They are the first link in the chain as you call it. Pastors then tend and look after the flock. You are trying to fit a pastor into the role of apostle, evangelist or missionary which they are not. They are pastors and teachers over the church they do not go out into the mission field.
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Post by blandie on Aug 8, 2015 15:09:55 GMT -5
Mary You are happy with your minister/s and how you feel their ministry lines up with NT teaching. That is great; keep enjoying! I am settled in my understanding of scripture telling of the New Testament ministry. I could not, dare not, will not settle for anything else. Sooooo are you saying that people can come to true knowledge and salvation apart from 2x2-isms way of ministry and becoming part of the F&W way of fellowship? Followup question - Is your answer also an indication you accept Mary and others who have left the F&W meetings and fellowship as fellow believers who are saved? I ask that because I personally know people who have been told by senior workers that they are not saved in any sense and are in wrong ways and the only path back is to attend gospel meetings until they get a new correct revelation and re-profess.
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 15:17:13 GMT -5
I am happy with a church that operates as the NT church did as stated in Ephensians 4. Some apostles, evangelists, pastors and teachers. It is the church we read of in the Bible. A church that only has workers and laity I would not be happy with. You are still trying to put pastors in the role of evangelists or missionaries which they are not. Your church needs to clearly define these roles if it wishes to make the claim of being like the NT church.
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 16:16:07 GMT -5
Are you calling yourself an apostle, review? But if you are referring to missionaries of which most present day workers are not then i am sure you can read plenty of missionaries stories on the Internet.
My neighbours spent many years as missionaries in New Guinea. A guy who is an elder in my church, his wife and him spent 16 years as missionaries in the Phillipines. They suffered hardship. Took just a few clothes. They left family and friends and went and lived amongst the natives taking the gospel to them.
I visited a group of missionaries on the border of Syria and Jordan when I was there 2 years ago. Some from nz, Australia, usa etc.
Is taking a money card like the workers do today, setting up and living in an apartment like workers do in those countries going as the apostles went?
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2015 16:18:32 GMT -5
Why is it important to label everyone? I know lots of non believers that also go out and help others in need, at home and in other countries. They wouldn't match any of the labels thrown out there above, yet they do a great deal of good in this world. I think what happens is people get too stuck on labels and not get focused on what really matters, helping. There are all kinds of help. From reading the bible and seeing the mix of things that Jesus did and advised, I think he was trying to show us not to get stuck on the labels or certain ways of helping, but get out there and do what works. Bring love and compassion to the world. That's the good news and that's what matters imo.
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