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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 31, 2015 21:12:31 GMT -5
Cherie, A young man with businesses in his 20's have many other people and things in their lives besides what happens in their parents home. And how does this affects his research and the facts he uncovered about the origins of the church? What is Truth?Definition of "truth" (a noun): 1. the quality or state of being true 2. that which is true; statement, etc. that accords with fact or reality 3. an established or verified fact, principle, etc. 4. a particular belief or teaching regarded by the speaker as the true one Truth is Supreme:Truth lacks nothing. Cannot be improved upon. It is sound, flawless, excellent, pure, Strong in its own strength. Truth is Absolutely Perfect. Truth Invites Scrutiny:Truth stands on its own merits, Doesn't shrink from inquiry, Doesn't fear test or trials, For it contains nothing false... The Truth has nothing to hide. Truth Is Not Affected By:Examination or Investigation, Criticism or Condemnation, Questions or Doubt, Feelings or Wishful Thinking, Approval or Disapproval, Appreciation or Recognition, Acceptance, Rejection or Denial. Truth Cannot Be Altered or Eliminated:Not by time or chance, Nor with words or money. Truth cannot be harmed or killed, Nor eradicated or annihilated. For Truth is indestructible, Will never perish, cannot die, Truth endures forever. Truth cannot be erased or modified, Is established, constant, fixed, Remains the same and ever will remain... For Truth is incorruptible. His Truth endures to ALL generations, Ps. 100:5 Truth Is Not Influenced or Offended By:The process of discovery, Nor by the personality, motives Or emotions of the source Expressing or exposing it. So delve into it and prove it. Question, doubt, test and check; Investigate, explore, probe and examine, Research, challenge, verify and confirm, Analyze, evaluate and judge. The Truth will come forth as gold.Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding, Prov. 23:23 Truth is the property of no individual,but is the treasure of all men. Author Unknown Truth Is Feared:
Some go to great lengths... To conceal, disguise or obscure the Truth. To squelch, cover up, obstruct or hinder it. Some attempt to restore or revive it. Others to remodel, replace or redesign it, Using deception, dishonesty and omission; Substituting half-Truths, fabrications, Fables. Who are they fooling? Those who change Truth into a lie Have nothing to fear... But Time and Truth, For the Truth will Out. Truth Is Truth, Regardless Of:Who perceives it, or fails to recognize it; Who understands it or misunderstands it; Who agrees or disagrees with it; Who believes or disbelieves it; Who accepts, objects or rejects it; Who is convinced or unconvinced of it; Who accuses or excuses it; Who proves it or seeks to disprove it; Who opposes, challenges, questions or doubts it; Who misinterprets, misconstrues, perverts or distorts it. Whether it is spoken, written or acted out; Whether it is withheld, omitted, falsified; Whether it is expressed, suppressed, or unexpressed; Whether it is disputed, contested or tried; Whether it is covered up or uncovered; Whether it is revealed or concealed. For Truth is Truth...independently of man.If it is the truth, what does it matter who says it? (Anonymous) "For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth." 2 Cor. 13:8 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" Gal. 4:16
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Post by Mary on Jul 31, 2015 21:13:40 GMT -5
What kind of things might you be referring to that a guy in his 20s might have, howitis.
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Post by swarupa on Jul 31, 2015 21:15:13 GMT -5
many of us in churches have been fed spiritual poisoned tea not only in the 2 by 2's used to think a 2 by 2 was a board maybe why some of us are bored.
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Post by howitis on Jul 31, 2015 21:37:16 GMT -5
My original post was basically due to the fact I was amazed, and still am, that so many (but now it appears not so many really), left the church because of a book written about their early church, whether correct or incorrect, as a young person I was going to do the same, though the book had not yet been written. Going off a 4 page circular from 1954 and not having the means to travel overseas I thought I'd find Parker, whom I'd been told about in childhood, with no computers or mobile phones I asked questions and found out where he'd been............no I'm not writing a book about it.....the experience led me back to the church not against it, as was my intent.......however that's my story and as I've discovered people here only want the 'getting out' stories all the rest are deemed lies. All the best to you all
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Post by jondough on Jul 31, 2015 21:42:58 GMT -5
My original post was basically due to the fact I was amazed, and still am, that so many (but now it appears not so many really), left the church because of a book written about their early church, whether correct or incorrect, as a young person I was going to do the same, though the book had not yet been written. Going off a 4 page circular from 1954 and not having the means to travel overseas I thought I'd find Parker, whom I'd been told about in childhood, with no computers or mobile phones I asked questions and found out where he'd been............no I'm not writing a book about it.....the experience led me back to the church not against it, as was my intent.......however that's my story and as I've discovered people here only want the 'getting out' stories all the rest are deemed lies. All the best to you all Not always Howitis. I'm glad to hear your story. I think there are others here that are as well. I, like you ended up going back to meetings - for different reasons. I am also content here. I've written before why so I wont bore readers with it again. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 31, 2015 22:17:18 GMT -5
My original post was basically due to the fact I was amazed, and still am, that so many (but now it appears not so many really), left the church because of a book written about their early church, whether correct or incorrect, as a young person I was going to do the same, though the book had not yet been written. Going off a 4 page circular from 1954 and not having the means to travel overseas I thought I'd find Parker, whom I'd been told about in childhood, with no computers or mobile phones I asked questions and found out where he'd been............no I'm not writing a book about it.....the experience led me back to the church not against it, as was my intent.......however that's my story and as I've discovered people here only want the 'getting out' stories all the rest are deemed lies. All the best to you all I think a lot of people left because they found out they were lied to ! For something that is suppose to be "The Truth" there has been a lot of lies ! If a group are going to preach that they are the "Only Right Way" then years later people start to find out things were not as they were lead to believe, how do you think people will react? Even if you put Doug's book aside for the moment, look at what has happened in Victoria over the last 3 years, 2 workers charged for CSA in the church that preaches that they are the "Only Right Way". How do you think people will react to that ? Then in QLD you have the now head worker telling a man on bail for CSA, he could go to Convention. Even if someone had not read Doug's book, you would have to start to question.
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Post by Mary on Aug 1, 2015 1:54:25 GMT -5
The truth ended up not being the truth after all. This church was supposed to have been started by Jesus and not man like all other churches. It is the lie that our ancestors were brought into being that we have found the true church, the one that went back to Jesus. Seems a big enough reason to leave to me. Although for most that was only one thing out of a number of things.
That was a foundational teaching of the group. If the foundation is not true then what else is not true. God does not lie.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 12:09:14 GMT -5
The truth ended up not being the truth after all. This church was supposed to have been started by Jesus and not man like all other churches. It is the lie that our ancestors were brought into being that we have found the true church, the one that went back to Jesus. Seems a big enough reason to leave to me. Although for most that was only one thing out of a number of things. That was a foundational teaching of the group. If the foundation is not true then what else is not true. God does not lie. Mary, it was only when I publicly acknowledged to another that everything I had been told about "the truth" by the workers was NOT true, and also confessed where such lies, deception and deceit originated, to the one asking, that I was able to clearly understand. So, I completely also understand where these adamant defenders of that religion stand, believe, defend. Now, all I answer for are my own beliefs and why I gladly, willingly, chose to believe them.
Having expressed this, I completely agree with this post of yours.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 1, 2015 16:47:15 GMT -5
The truth ended up not being the truth after all. This church was supposed to have been started by Jesus and not man like all other churches. It is the lie that our ancestors were brought into being that we have found the true church, the one that went back to Jesus. Seems a big enough reason to leave to me. Although for most that was only one thing out of a number of things. That was a foundational teaching of the group. If the foundation is not true then what else is not true. God does not lie. So Jesus/God/Holy Spirit had and has nothing to do with our fellowship? Boy do some of you go way out on the thin dead limb of subjective and judgmental opinion with some of the things you say. How do you know for absolute certain you are not fighting against God? Answer that plainly, and without any equivocating.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 4, 2015 1:41:00 GMT -5
The Devil is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44). For the "reinstatement" of "the true faith" you have a false prophet and then years of deceit by those who followed in his shoes. It is wrong to forbid people to marry (1 Tim 4:3). Jesus spoke in strongest terms against those who "love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues" (Know of anyone who sits at special tables and special seats at convention?). Jesus is God. Those who deny this deny the Lord himself. Revelation 1:8 “ I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." [words of Jesus : see verse 16]Faith, not works. Those who pursue the law as the way of righteousness, will not attain their goal, because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. (Romans 9:30-) Yes, I believe for absolute certain I am not fighting against God in any of these matters.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 2:10:18 GMT -5
To answer the saved question - I see the effect of "love your neighbor as yourself" and I am at peace. Thanks. An ongoing challenge for all of us to do well, but not a basis on which I would like to be judged at the judgement seat. I am struck by the absence of the context in which Jesus placed this command (Love the Lord your God...), and wonder what place his life, death and resurrection have in your life. No answer necessarily required. Just something to ponder. God didn't die and wasn't resurrected and he can't be tempted Jesus was. So if God doesn't lie and the bible is the truth, how was Jesus tempted if he's God? James 1 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 4, 2015 2:13:12 GMT -5
Yes, I believe for absolute certain I am not fighting against God in any of these matters. Hi Elizabeth. I asked Mary the questions. Your post isn't an answer to the questions I asked and it isn't in context with the verse I quoted.
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Post by Mary on Aug 4, 2015 2:23:39 GMT -5
Maryhig, do you really think Jesus was tempted when the devil tried to tempt him? I don't believe Jesus was tempted to give in to the devil at all because of the joy that was set before him. I can be tempted about some things but I will not be tempted by other things. It Do you not think the devil can tempt God the same way as he tried to tempt Jesus? But of course the devil is wasting his time because God will not and cannot be tempted by anything that is put in his way. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus was not tempted. A clear example of Jesus calling himself God.
No matter how much the devil tried to tempt Jesus he couldn't.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 3:04:55 GMT -5
The Devil is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44). For the "reinstatement" of "the true faith" you have a false prophet and then years of deceit by those who followed in his shoes. It is wrong to forbid people to marry (1 Tim 4:3). Jesus spoke in strongest terms against those who "love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues" (Know of anyone who sits at special tables and special seats at convention?). Jesus is God. Those who deny this deny the Lord himself. Revelation 1:8 “ I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." [words of Jesus : see verse 16]Faith, not works. Those who pursue the law as the way of righteousness, will not attain their goal, because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. (Romans 9:30-) Yes, I believe for absolute certain I am not fighting against God in any of these matters. Jesus did say he was the alpha and the omega, and he was and is in Gods express image, he's the mediator between man and God. He is on his right hand. He is not God. And, God has given all things into him, but God is still above Christ. And Christ's people are on the right hand of him! And were not God either. We are also at one, in strength heart mind and soul. Christ is at one with God in this aspect too. John 17 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. You say there is no works to do, yet in your own post above Jesus said there is works. Revelation 22:12 (quoted from your post) Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. And James clearly said, faith without works is dead, James 2 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. We can't do anything of ourselves, but with Christ and Gods holy spirit anything is possible, even overcoming Satan and enduring to the end. Our works are, to let Christ in allowing Gods holy spirit to work within in our hearts, to love God, with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, love our neighbour as ourselves, take up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Jesus! And remain unspotted from the world, taking Christ into our hearts and living it out. Showing his love to all we meet, even through persecution. And bringing his gospel to all. If there are no works, why, do we have to deny ourselves? Why do this if we don't have to do anything? We can't do anything of ourselves, and we can only overcome Satan if Christ is resurrected in our hearts. And we live by the spirit not the flesh, or the world!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 3:11:43 GMT -5
Maryhig, do you really think Jesus was tempted when the devil tried to tempt him? I don't believe Jesus was tempted to give in to the devil at all because of the joy that was set before him. I can be tempted about some things but I will not be tempted by other things. It Do you not think the devil can tempt God the same way as he tried to tempt Jesus? But of course the devil is wasting his time because God will not and cannot be tempted by anything that is put in his way. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus was not tempted. A clear example of Jesus calling himself God. No matter how much the devil tried to tempt Jesus he couldn't. Yes, I believe Jesus was tempted just like us. He had to be so that he could overcome Satan. He came into human flesh, so he was tempted like humans are. The difference being, he never sinned! Hebrews 4 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus was tempted, and he could have bowed down to Satan. But Satan couldn't overcome him, because Jesus was too strong for him. And Jesus denied Satan until the last breath in this life! And he will help us overcome Satan too.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 3:27:36 GMT -5
God didn't die and wasn't resurrected and he can't be tempted Jesus was. So if God doesn't lie and the bible is the truth, how was Jesus tempted if he's God? James 1 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: God the Father has never lived in human body but God the Son/Christ did. Therefore, God the Father didn't die but God/the Son died on Calvary's Cross and the Son was tempted in all points while he lived in the human boy like we do, so he is our High priest, and as our intercessor to the Father. Before Jesus was incarnated as a man he was God/the Son/Christ who was with the Father in eternity before EVERYTHING was created by Him/Christ. Col. 2:9 For in him/Christ dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.God the son is nowhere in the bible, if it is show me and I will believe you. Written exactly like that, God the son!
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 14:02:38 GMT -5
God the son is nowhere in the bible, if it is show me and I will believe you. Written exactly like that, God the son! The phrases "God the Son" and the "Trinity" are NOT found in the Bible because the books were ENDED in the 1st century! And the apostles did NOT use those terminologies, But the apostles in the 2nd Century came up with the terminologies to describe the "Godhead". Thanks, God for Paul the apostle who used the word "Godhead" 3 times in his letters. If Paul didn't write it People would say there is NO such thing as the Godhead! in the Bible... Because Paul wrote it we know it's scriptures! If the 2nd Century apostles writings were included in the Bible the phrases " Jesus God the Son" and "Trinity" would have been scriptures! for us to use it. The term "Godhead" is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. Three different Greek words are used, but each one means “divinity.” It is important for us to understand from the outset that God exists in three Persons. The concept of the Godhead is that God is ONE= ONENESS in Unity, Harmony yet God is three separate Supreme Beings/Godhead.The 2nd century apostles....From A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David W. Bercot Hippolytus (205 A.D.) "Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." By this, He showed that whoever omits any one of them, fails in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through the TRINITY that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, and the Spirit manifested. Tertullian (212 A.D.) For the very church itself is properly and principally the Spirit Himself, in whom is the TRINITY of the One Divinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Cyprian (250 A.D.) Observing the third, sixth, and nineth month for a sacrament of the TRINITY, which was to be manifested in the last times. For the first hour in its progress to the third declared the completed number of the TRINITY. The TRINITY of the names of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.The Word of God (Christ) the SonJohn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Hebrews 4:12 The Word of God is LIVING and Powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword Revelation 19:13 He/Jesus was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God.~~ Ignatius (105 A.D.) Jesus Christ, His Son, is His Eternal Word. The Son did NOT proceed from silence. He is all things pleased Him who SENT Him. ~~ Justin Martyr (160 A.D.) The Word himself who took shape and became a MAN, was called Jesus Christ. The first power after God the Father, and Lord of ALL is the Word, who is also the Son. ~~ Irenaeus (180 A.D.) NOT one of the created and subjects things shall ever be compared to the Word of God, by whom ALL things were MADE, who is our Lord Jesus Christ. ~~ Victorius (280 A.D.) The author of the whole creation is Jesus. His name is the Word. For thus His Father says: "My heart has emitted a good Word." (Psalm 44) Therefore, John the apostle says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God." Exactly Nathan, it's not in the bible, if Jesus was God the son, it would be in the bible. Jesus would have told his apostles that he was God the son. It's not even mentioned once. It says that he's the son of God. So because it's not in the bible, I don't believe it! Because God would have made sure something so important as that would be in there. Also, how does godhead mean trinity? Why would it mean that? And its only in the KJV, and you told me that the KJV is a much older translation and the newer translations are better because they are more accurate. And Godhead, isn't in the others. According to what I've read online anyway. Also divine, means of God, like God, or a God. So I believe Jesus is of God, so he's divine. But he isn't God. As I said Nathan, i believe that, if Jesus was God the son, God the almighty would have made sure God the son (through Jesus or through revelation to his apostles) was in the bible at least once. People go on and on that those of us who don't believe in the trinity are wrong, yet trinity, God the son, triune etc. Aren't anywhere in there bible, nowhere at all! And you say were wrong?? I believe everything in the bible that should be there is there, and God wouldn't have left out something that was so important. It would be there if it were true!
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Post by fixit on Aug 4, 2015 14:36:36 GMT -5
Maryhig, do you really think Jesus was tempted when the devil tried to tempt him? I don't believe Jesus was tempted to give in to the devil at all because of the joy that was set before him. I can be tempted about some things but I will not be tempted by other things. It Do you not think the devil can tempt God the same way as he tried to tempt Jesus? But of course the devil is wasting his time because God will not and cannot be tempted by anything that is put in his way. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus was not tempted. A clear example of Jesus calling himself God. No matter how much the devil tried to tempt Jesus he couldn't. I'm with Maryhig on this. God cannot be tempted. Man can be tempted. The Devil knew that all along. PS: Is this really going to be another thread derailed by the Jesus=God debate?
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 14:54:08 GMT -5
The word Trinity, Triune God, God the Son are NOT in the Bible because the 2nd century apostles came up with the words to describe the Godhead in words we can understand better. Unfortunately, the 2nd century apostles teaching/understanding of the Godhead were NOT included when they put the Bible together as a book, it stopped at the 1s century apostles teachings. The concept or teaching of the Godhead= Father, Christ/Son and Holy Spirit are in the Old and New Testament... Here are many examples for you.... The Triune God in the ScripturesDo the Scriptures Contain Evidence of the Triune God? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Most certainly. The Triune God, ie., the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - is the only true God of the Bible. Numerous references to Father, Son and Spirit can be found in both the Old and New Testaments. The Triune God in the Old Testament (the Hebrew Tanakh) The Triune God Creates the UniverseGen 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The Father is portrayed as the creative source of all things. Gen 1:2: ".. and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters." Here, in the second verse of Genesis, the Spirit of God appears as active in the creation process. Gen 1:3: Then God said, "Let there be light; and there was light." The Son, the eternal Word of God, speaks the first of Gods works into existence. John 1:1-3,10,14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word WAS with God, and the Word WAS God. All things were made by Him, and without Him there was NOT any thing made that was made. He/Jesus was in the world and the world knew Him not. And the Word/God was made Flesh/Jesus and dwell among us, full of grace and truth.The Triune God Creates MankindGen 1:26: "Then God said, "Let Us [plural] make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...". The Triune God in the New TestamentWe are to be Baptized in the Name (Singular) of the Triune God. Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." We are to baptize in the name of the three-person Lord - Father, Son and Spirit. Father and Spirit at the Baptism of the SonMark 1:9-11 "It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. Then a voice came fromheaven, "You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Here we have the Father, looking down approvingly at His beloved Son, while the Spirit descends and rests upon Him.Paul Writes in Romans of the Three Person Lord Romans 11:36: "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen." Here Paul writes about the Spirit (of Him all things were created at the beginning), and through Him (Jesus, through whom the world was made), and to Him (the eternal Father).Blessing Given in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowshipof the Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen." Here we have the three persons of the Godhead described, each with their own distinctive qualities: 1)The grace of the Lord Jesus ("the law came by Moses, grace and truth by Jesus Christ" 2)The love of God the Father ("God is love") 3)The fellowship of the Holy Spirit ("I will give you another Comforter") The Triune God Watches Over His ChurchActs 20:28 " Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Here we have the Holy Spirit acting as a person, appointing overseers to guide the church which He (God in Christ) purchased with His own blood.Peter Acknowledges the Triune God1 Peter 1-2: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied."Paul Writing to Timothy Invokes the Son, the Father and the Spirit1 Timothy 3:16: "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."Ephesians 3:14-17: "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height— to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." Here Paul is being led by the Spirit to pray for the Ephesian church. In his prayer he makes his request to the Father, that the Ephesians might be strengthened by His Spirit, that Christ might dwell in their hearts through faith. Paul Writes about One Spirit, One Lord, One God and Father of AllEphesians 4:4-6: "[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all." Nathan, I can go through all that and show how that all means the three are separate not one being. But there's no point in going on, because if it were true, I believe it would absolutely and definitely be in the bible. I have no doubt about that. Jesus said my God and your God. So, God is the God of Christ also! I think what shocks me most is what I read earlier, that someone who believes in the trinity said we are denying the lord because we don't believe the same as they do. I find this a very judgemental statement. Because not one of us, know another persons heart. And we can't possibly know what God sees in a person, because we are flesh. And I definitely don't deny God or Christ. I love them. How can any person make that statement when they don't know what's deep in the heart of another? Anyway I'm not trying to get at you Nathan, we always seem to get into this debate, but that's what I believe. I know you believe differently. And we still have our signposts that we agree on don't we
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 14:54:58 GMT -5
Maryhig, do you really think Jesus was tempted when the devil tried to tempt him? I don't believe Jesus was tempted to give in to the devil at all because of the joy that was set before him. I can be tempted about some things but I will not be tempted by other things. It Do you not think the devil can tempt God the same way as he tried to tempt Jesus? But of course the devil is wasting his time because God will not and cannot be tempted by anything that is put in his way. The Devil tried to tempt Jesus but Jesus was not tempted. A clear example of Jesus calling himself God. No matter how much the devil tried to tempt Jesus he couldn't. I'm with Maryhig on this. God cannot be tempted. Man can be tempted. The Devil knew that all along. PS: Is this really going to be another thread derailed by the Jesus=God debate? I know I'm sorry I'll stop now
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Post by maryhig on Aug 4, 2015 15:07:49 GMT -5
Nathan, I can go through all that and show how that all means the three are separate not one being. But there's no point in going on, because if it were true, I believe it would absolutely and definitely be in the bible. I have no doubt about that. Jesus said my God and your God. So, God is the God of Christ also! As a Son of Man, God the Father is His God! The Father called the Son, Lord/Yahweh and God also! in Hebrews 1:8-12 I think what shocks me most is what I read earlier, that someone who believes in the trinity said we are denying the lord because we don't believe the same as they do. I find this a very judgemental statement. Because not one of us, know another persons heart. And we can't possibly know what God sees in a person, because we are flesh. And I definitely don't deny God or Christ. I love them. How can any person make that statement when they don't know what's deep in the heart of another? We ALL believe the same Godhead= Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... Just a lot of people don't know the history how or who came with some of these terminologies and it confuses them and their understanding.Anyway I'm not trying to get at you Nathan, we always seem to get into this debate, but that's what I believe. I know you believe differently. And we still have our signposts that we agree on don't we Well, we try to reasons out these things, to help each others to understand the Godhead whom we serve. Once we understand each of their role in our Salvation then we are deeply greatful of their LOVE for us. We are the signs posts along the highway of life, pointing others to follow Jesus Christ, who our Lord God and Savior. That's not the signposts I agreed with anyway as fixit said. Were derailing the thread again. And he's right we are really aren't we?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 5, 2015 5:10:09 GMT -5
Jesus did say he was the alpha and the omega, and he was and is in Gods express image, he's the mediator between man and God. He is on his right hand. He is not God. And, God has given all things into him, but God is still above Christ. And Christ's people are on the right hand of him! And were not God either. We are also at one, in strength heart mind and soul. Christ is at one with God in this aspect too. John 17 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. You say there is no works to do, yet in your own post above Jesus said there is works. Revelation 22:12 (quoted from your post) Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. And James clearly said, faith without works is dead, James 2 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. We can't do anything of ourselves, but with Christ and Gods holy spirit anything is possible, even overcoming Satan and enduring to the end. Our works are, to let Christ in allowing Gods holy spirit to work within in our hearts, to love God, with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, love our neighbour as ourselves, take up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Jesus! And remain unspotted from the world, taking Christ into our hearts and living it out. Showing his love to all we meet, even through persecution. And bringing his gospel to all. If there are no works, why, do we have to deny ourselves? Why do this if we don't have to do anything? We can't do anything of ourselves, and we can only overcome Satan if Christ is resurrected in our hearts. And we live by the spirit not the flesh, or the world! Hi Maryhig, I appreciate your thoughts here. Please understand that I agree with most of them! Yes, works are still a very important part of the Christian faith. Our faith IS shown by our works. We are to take up our cross, and deny ourselves, and love our neighbour as ourselves. All the things you mentioned. I do not want to take away from this. The Bible seems to make a distinction between salvation (a gift) and reward (from our works). We can make the mistake of thinking that our reward is salvation. The Bible does not teach this. It does keep saying that we cannot work for that which is by faith. We cannot earn a free gift. There is mention of those who do much receiving much, and those who do little still being saved, but their works being burned up. What we do here, matters. How we live our faith, matters. You are right - in sharing those verses from James - if a man claims to have faith but there is no evidence - is it real? We usually act on what we believe. James points this out. There is a scene in Revelation 21 where the books are opened and everyone is judged according to what he has done. However, that is not the determining factor. Only those whose names are in the Book of Life receive eternal life. Those who have washed their blood in the robes of the Lamb. In the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed yearly for the sins of the people, as an atonement. The rest of the year, the people tried to keep the law. They always fell short. The only way they could come before God was via the sacrifice for sins, made in the temple. Hebrews explains how Christ is the once-for-all sacrifice for his people - to atone for their sins. It is why John cried out - "behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!". Sin is taken away because Christ made himself the sacrifice of atonement. We deny ourselves and follow Christ because he HAS given us eternal life, not to earn it. Yes, there will be reward for works, but not for the free gift of salvation. 1 Cor 3:15 talk of the importance of building on the foundation of our salvation: 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.xxElizabeth
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Post by maryhig on Aug 5, 2015 17:57:12 GMT -5
Jesus did say he was the alpha and the omega, and he was and is in Gods express image, he's the mediator between man and God. He is on his right hand. He is not God. And, God has given all things into him, but God is still above Christ. And Christ's people are on the right hand of him! And were not God either. We are also at one, in strength heart mind and soul. Christ is at one with God in this aspect too. John 17 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. You say there is no works to do, yet in your own post above Jesus said there is works. Revelation 22:12 (quoted from your post) Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. And James clearly said, faith without works is dead, James 2 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. We can't do anything of ourselves, but with Christ and Gods holy spirit anything is possible, even overcoming Satan and enduring to the end. Our works are, to let Christ in allowing Gods holy spirit to work within in our hearts, to love God, with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, love our neighbour as ourselves, take up our cross and deny ourselves and follow Jesus! And remain unspotted from the world, taking Christ into our hearts and living it out. Showing his love to all we meet, even through persecution. And bringing his gospel to all. If there are no works, why, do we have to deny ourselves? Why do this if we don't have to do anything? We can't do anything of ourselves, and we can only overcome Satan if Christ is resurrected in our hearts. And we live by the spirit not the flesh, or the world! Hi Maryhig, I appreciate your thoughts here. Please understand that I agree with most of them! Yes, works are still a very important part of the Christian faith. Our faith IS shown by our works. We are to take up our cross, and deny ourselves, and love our neighbour as ourselves. All the things you mentioned. I do not want to take away from this. The Bible seems to make a distinction between salvation (a gift) and reward (from our works). We can make the mistake of thinking that our reward is salvation. The Bible does not teach this. It does keep saying that we cannot work for that which is by faith. We cannot earn a free gift. There is mention of those who do much receiving much, and those who do little still being saved, but their works being burned up. What we do here, matters. How we live our faith, matters. You are right - in sharing those verses from James - if a man claims to have faith but there is no evidence - is it real? We usually act on what we believe. James points this out. There is a scene in Revelation 21 where the books are opened and everyone is judged according to what he has done. However, that is not the determining factor. Only those whose names are in the Book of Life receive eternal life. Those who have washed their blood in the robes of the Lamb. In the Old Testament, animals were sacrificed yearly for the sins of the people, as an atonement. The rest of the year, the people tried to keep the law. They always fell short. The only way they could come before God was via the sacrifice for sins, made in the temple. Hebrews explains how Christ is the once-for-all sacrifice for his people - to atone for their sins. It is why John cried out - "behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!". Sin is taken away because Christ made himself the sacrifice of atonement. We deny ourselves and follow Christ because he HAS given us eternal life, not to earn it. Yes, there will be reward for works, but not for the free gift of salvation. 1 Cor 3:15 talk of the importance of building on the foundation of our salvation: 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.xxElizabeth Hello again, Elisabeth I think everyone knows how I feel about the cross and the trinity by now. But I am trying not to get pulled into it all the time. Because then the whole thread erupts again. But I've noticed on here many seem to think their church is right, and many say others are wrong. In other words they have the right way. But I look at it like this, it's not the religion that's the way. It's the life and that life and light was in Jesus, he is the way. And all those who truly love God with all their hearts and follow Jesus will be blessed with the spirit. And I will follow my heart and believe what I feel is right by God to me. And whilst I am feeling God in my heart through love and guidance and revelation and understanding and correcting me through my conscience then i know he's with me. And I know that Christ is giving me the strength to overcome. Because the things that were so important to me before are going from my heart. And when the wrong things in me raise their wicked head again. In comes the conscience which I believe is the spirit. And it comes in much stronger and quicker than it did before I gave my heart to God. And I know I'm being put right. And that I have to stop before it gets a hold of me again. So whilst I am feeling, hearing and seeing God, then I will carry on, and hope and pray that God through the spirit will put more and more of my flesh to death, and give me more strength in the spirit to not only overcome daily in my own heart, but to bring the life of Christ by the spirit of God to others. Gods people aren't in one religion, they are in one way. And that's the way of Jesus the holy son of the living God, and his sheep hear his voice. There is good and bad everywhere, in all religions and right down to each individual heart, and its what we do once we hear his voice. Do we truly follow him and leave off our old life, or do we hold on to our lives and the world and speak of God but deny him in our lives. For its not the hearers of the word, but the doers of the word. And only God knows our hearts. So I leave my life in Gods hands, because only he knows my heart. James 1 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Mary
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2015 20:06:50 GMT -5
Hello again, :) Elisabeth I think everyone knows how I feel about the cross and the trinity by now. But I am trying not to get pulled into it all the time. But when the phone calls.....
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 5, 2015 22:30:53 GMT -5
Hello again, Elisabeth I think everyone knows how I feel about the cross and the trinity by now. But I am trying not to get pulled into it all the time. Because then the whole thread erupts again. But I've noticed on here many seem to think their church is right, and many say others are wrong. In other words they have the right way. But I look at it like this, it's not the religion that's the way. It's the life and that life and light was in Jesus, he is the way. And all those who truly love God with all their hearts and follow Jesus will be blessed with the spirit. And I will follow my heart and believe what I feel is right by God to me. And whilst I am feeling God in my heart through love and guidance and revelation and understanding and correcting me through my conscience then i know he's with me. And I know that Christ is giving me the strength to overcome. Because the things that were so important to me before are going from my heart. And when the wrong things in me raise their wicked head again. In comes the conscience which I believe is the spirit. And it comes in much stronger and quicker than it did before I gave my heart to God. And I know I'm being put right. And that I have to stop before it gets a hold of me again. So whilst I am feeling, hearing and seeing God, then I will carry on, and hope and pray that God through the spirit will put more and more of my flesh to death, and give me more strength in the spirit to not only overcome daily in my own heart, but to bring the life of Christ by the spirit of God to others. Gods people aren't in one religion, they are in one way. And that's the way of Jesus the holy son of the living God, and his sheep hear his voice. There is good and bad everywhere, in all religions and right down to each individual heart, and its what we do once we hear his voice. Do we truly follow him and leave off our old life, or do we hold on to our lives and the world and speak of God but deny him in our lives. For its not the hearers of the word, but the doers of the word. And only God knows our hearts. So I leave my life in Gods hands, because only he knows my heart. James 1 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Mary I'll leave you to it. Just remember that if we claim to follow the God of the Bible, it must be how he has revealed himself, not one who is a creation of our own imagination. We need to continue to wrestle with the things we don't understand, not just dismiss them. For the record, my church is not the point. I don't care where you go to church or fellowship. What you believe is of importance to me, not where you go. That's up to you. Yes, Jesus is the way. That excludes ALL human groups as being "the way". There are true believers in many difference places and churches. Take care. xxE.
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Post by rational on Aug 5, 2015 23:13:22 GMT -5
God the son is nowhere in the bible, if it is show me and I will believe you. Written exactly like that, God the son! You have been shown things in the bible and then assign new meanings to them to support your beliefs. Would that be different in this case?
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Post by howitis on Aug 5, 2015 23:49:01 GMT -5
What are you saying here Rational?
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Post by fixit on Aug 6, 2015 1:14:19 GMT -5
God the son is nowhere in the bible, if it is show me and I will believe you. Written exactly like that, God the son! You have been shown things in the bible and then assign new meanings to them to support your beliefs. Would that be different in this case? Written exactly like that, God the son!
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