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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 16:23:55 GMT -5
Absolutely snow. Agree completely. Labels, and ways of doing things is not the Gospel. The message and action is. I did add the message to your description as the gospel or good news also came with the spoken word.
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Post by rational on Aug 8, 2015 16:50:37 GMT -5
Mary, why don't you define the terms as you are using them and then there will be no question about what the various people are. Since many of the terms are used interchangeably trying to determine the situation without knowing what meaning you are using is futile. And I trust you know what the KJV says about futile tasks. Let that be your guide.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 8, 2015 18:28:22 GMT -5
Ross, Some time ago you made some time ago you threatened to pursue me offline, even to the extent of saying you would make an international flight to do so. Things continue to bubble inside you. This last post of yours would typical of your small minded unpleasantness, focussing on a person rather than the topic. I've observed that TMB is a place where some ex members use it mainly 'vent' their dissatisfaction and rejection of the church/fellowship. Amazingly the church of which their mother and other family members still belong to! Encouragingly other ex members are respectful and good people with integrity. That doesn't mean they don't post plainly and honestly of their experience in the fellowship. I have a good relationship with a number of them and they have helpful input. I shrug your personally threatening and unpleasant posts off and soon forget them. You do have my pity, compassion and prayers; as I consider what works within you that makes you post these unpleasant statements of ill motive. The acid is doing more harm to the vessel it is stored in than that which it is poured out on. Well Review maybe you should re-read some of your own posts ! The thread on Domestic Violence would be a good place to start ! Review maybe you missed this ! Or don't you want to answer ? I suppose you could block me too, seems the thing to do if you don't like what someone has to say !
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Post by Mary on Aug 8, 2015 22:14:42 GMT -5
I told you the answer many times review. First it seems as if you are calling yourself an apostle. I said that those who go out like apostles are called missionaries today. We have plenty of missionaries who go out like the apostles. Call them apostles if that makes you happier but I prefer the word missionary. Do you have apostles in your church, review? Do you consider yourself an apostle?
I don't know why i bother answering because you obviously don't read the posts as you keep asking the same questions and I keep answering them. What's the word Rational used? Futile. Yes futile and a waste of time.
Oh yes, and the invitation i just got in my letter box said; If you are seeking the Christian teaching and fellowship we read of in the Bible, then we invite you.....
Similar words to what review used above.
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Post by blandie on Aug 9, 2015 4:04:56 GMT -5
It's Biblical we READ Paul and his co-workers were sent on expensive 3 trips/missions to different countries and places for months, preaching God's words and also to strengthen the brethren along the way in the book of Acts. I thought it was Paul who made the point that he worked with his own hands to support himself and the men with him so as to be a burden to no one.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2015 5:26:20 GMT -5
We'd prefer them to stay in their mission field preaching to the lost. Interesting that you call them lost. Did they say they were lost? Did they ask to be 'found"? It always reminds me of the humorous conversation between the missionary and the native. An Eskimo hunter asked the local missionary: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the missionary, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?"Annie Dillard
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Post by howitis on Aug 9, 2015 5:42:11 GMT -5
Exactly..........!!!!!! Sad how many 'professional' people think the same whether they 'profess' religion, education or whatever.Seems they think all can learn from them. An Australian university hosted school teachers to come to Australia from Bhutan, they were given spending money and boarded with families, trouble is many spent their money on electronic gadgets that would not even work in their villages as they had no electricity!!! Makes me wonder if learning how to teach IT benefited them!!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 9, 2015 6:17:18 GMT -5
Tell us about the Apostles in your NT like church, the church you say we read of in the Bible. Mary I note you are unable to answer this question. The response post you made made no mention of apostles whatever. I didn't expect it to because you can't!
You know your church has nothing about an apostle about it! Look Mary you are happy with your minister and churches. I am glad for you! Please enjoy them to the full. It is your soul and your life and you are wise to find churches that you like and are happy with. But please don't fool yourself thinking you have ' the church we read of in the Bible' as you falsely claim Amazing you keep up your campaign of negativity... You deride, criticize and mock workers and friends then when I ask you to show you the better thing you have... you make a false statement, claiming you have something that you certainly don't have. So Review are you claiming that YOU "have the church we read of in the Bible" ?
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 12:07:43 GMT -5
We'd prefer them to stay in their mission field preaching to the lost. Interesting that you call them lost. Did they say they were lost? Did they ask to be 'found"? It always reminds me of the humorous conversation between the missionary and the native. An Eskimo hunter asked the local missionary: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the missionary, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?"Bill Watterson does great comics with Calvin and Hobbes, with the "ignorance is bliss" , idea that us humans enjoy. [Calvin and Hobbes are riding along in their red wagon, careening through the woods]Calvin: It's true, Hobbes, ignorance is bliss! Once you know things, you start seeing problems everywhere ... and once you see problems, you feel like you ought to fix them ... and fixing problems always seems to require personal change ... and change means doing things that aren't fun! I say phooey to that![Moving downhill, they begin to pick up speed.]Calvin: [looking back at Hobbes] But if you're wilfully stupid, you don't know any better, so you can keep doing whatever you like! The secret to happiness is short-term, stupid self-interest!Hobbes: [looking concerned] We're heading for that cliff!Calvin: [hands over his eyes] I don't want to know about it.[They fly off the cliff: 'Waaaugghhh!']Hobbes: [after crash landing] I'm not sure I can stand so much bliss.Calvin: Careful! We don't want to learn anything from this.
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Post by blandie on Aug 9, 2015 12:41:56 GMT -5
One of the reasons Paul, Barnabas, Timothy had to work with their own hands while they were preaching and pastoring the Corinthian churches because many of the disciples felt he was NOT an apostle of Christ so they didn't support his ministry or help with their daily needs. However, other churches sent help/money to Paul and his fellow workers while they were in Corinth area. That might be a contributing reason tho Paul also says he was self supporting and not making use of his right to take funds so as to avoid hindering the gospel. My point was that his big trips weren't an 'expensive' outlay because they weren't financed by the friends but largely from his own pocket and the jobs he took to provide for himself and those with him.
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Post by blandie on Aug 9, 2015 12:50:17 GMT -5
It always reminds me of the humorous conversation between the missionary and the native. An Eskimo hunter asked the local missionary: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the missionary, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?"Annie DillardThats funny in a superficial way but people do ask within themselves and process new information and develop. Sort of an anti-intellectual undertone to the humor there -- wouldn't be any books or science or compelling art or anything else if new information was a bad thing.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2015 13:09:39 GMT -5
It's Biblical we READ Paul and his co-workers were sent on expensive 3 trips/missions to different countries and places for months, preaching God's words and also to strengthen the brethren along the way in the book of Acts. I thought it was Paul who made the point that he worked with his own hands to support himself and the men with him so as to be a burden to no one. Yes, Paul worked. He was said to be a tent maker and most of his travels also included selling his wares both physical and spiritual. He stayed with some of people who were also into the same industry. He didn't just go around preaching he also supported himself at the same time. When you are in the process of getting a new religion up and running I would imagine the funds to do this mostly come out of your own pocket, at least initially, depending on how successful you are at recruiting loyal followers.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2015 13:29:18 GMT -5
It always reminds me of the humorous conversation between the missionary and the native. An Eskimo hunter asked the local missionary: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the missionary, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?"Annie DillardThats funny in a superficial way but people do ask within themselves and process new information and develop. Sort of an anti-intellectual undertone to the humor there -- wouldn't be any books or science or compelling art or anything else if new information was a bad thing. Yes it is a rather superficial humor but as far as science and all the other things that religion rejects because it contradicts the bible, well while you might not benefit from it, at least you won't be tortured for eternity for knowing about it and then rejecting it. The biggest offence I think is missionaries that focus on 'saving' people they call 'lost'. They have their own beliefs and it's arrogant and presumptuous of other religions to believe they have it right and others have it wrong. I don't mind them going to help people in practical ways, but it always comes with a condition that they also have to listen to their beliefs and trying to convert others to their religion when all along the religion of these people has served them just fine for a very long time. I'm not talking about sharing points of view either, I'm talking about an agenda to go save lost souls. People will always share points of view, but when it comes with an expectation that the other has to change their pov then it's done with an agenda. When missionaries go with the agenda of saving lost souls by giving them practical items to fill their needs, then you set up a situation where the person who is being helped with practical necessities feels obligated to also convert to those people's beliefs. After all they are helping us, would be the mentality. Helping those in need should not be paired with converting to another religion. My brother and sister in law were missionaries in many Middle East countries for years until my brother's health sent him back to Canada. Their whole agenda was to bring them to Christianity. Now they live in Canada and teach others how to go to other countries and be missionaries and save people. The Baptist church supports them and all the parishioners and their immediate family. You can just imagine our talks when I get together with my missionary brother lol...
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 13:44:48 GMT -5
quote- Yes it is a rather superficial humor but as far as science and all the other things that religion rejects because it contradicts the bible,..... found these "studies" interesting, but I am guilty of the cut and paste charges....... Alvin The public’s view that science and religion can’t work in collaboration is a misconception that stunts progress, according to a new survey of more than 10,000 Americans, scientists and evangelical Protestants.........Ecklund found another counterintuitive result in the survey. The conventional wisdom is that religious people who work in science will have more doubts about their faith, but the survey revealed the opposite: Evangelical scientists practice religion more than evangelical Protestants in the general population. “Those scientists who identify as evangelical are more religious than regular American evangelicals who are not in science,” Ecklund said. -Other key findings: •Nearly 60 percent of evangelical Protestants and 38 percent of all surveyed believe “scientists should be open to considering miracles in their theories or explanations.” • 27 percent of Americans feel that science and religion are in conflict. •Of those who feel science and religion are in conflict, 52 percent sided with religion. •48 percent of evangelicals believe that science and religion can work in collaboration. •22 percent of scientists think most religious people are hostile to science. •Nearly 20 percent of the general population think religious people are hostile to science. •Nearly 22 percent of the general population think scientists are hostile to religion. •Nearly 36 percent of scientists have no doubt about God’s existence. - See more at: news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study/#sthash.ixJN50us.dpuf - See more at: news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study/#sthash.ixJN50us.dpufwww.livescience.com/379-scientists-belief-god-varies-starkly-discipline.html About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do. The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion. Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found.
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Post by rational on Aug 9, 2015 14:26:12 GMT -5
It always reminds me of the humorous conversation between the missionary and the native. An Eskimo hunter asked the local missionary: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the missionary, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Eskimo earnestly, "did you tell me?"Annie DillardThats funny in a superficial way but people do ask within themselves and process new information and develop. Sort of an anti-intellectual undertone to the humor there -- wouldn't be any books or science or compelling art or anything else if new information was a bad thing. From my point of view this would cause the native to worry about whether he was going to heaven or hell for no reason at all. There is no downside if you do not know about god or any religious belief.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2015 14:45:01 GMT -5
quote- Yes it is a rather superficial humor but as far as science and all the other things that religion rejects because it contradicts the bible,..... found these "studies" interesting, but I am guilty of the cut and paste charges....... Alvin The public’s view that science and religion can’t work in collaboration is a misconception that stunts progress, according to a new survey of more than 10,000 Americans, scientists and evangelical Protestants.........Ecklund found another counterintuitive result in the survey. The conventional wisdom is that religious people who work in science will have more doubts about their faith, but the survey revealed the opposite: Evangelical scientists practice religion more than evangelical Protestants in the general population. “Those scientists who identify as evangelical are more religious than regular American evangelicals who are not in science,” Ecklund said. -Other key findings: •Nearly 60 percent of evangelical Protestants and 38 percent of all surveyed believe “scientists should be open to considering miracles in their theories or explanations.” • 27 percent of Americans feel that science and religion are in conflict. •Of those who feel science and religion are in conflict, 52 percent sided with religion. •48 percent of evangelicals believe that science and religion can work in collaboration. •22 percent of scientists think most religious people are hostile to science. •Nearly 20 percent of the general population think religious people are hostile to science. •Nearly 22 percent of the general population think scientists are hostile to religion. •Nearly 36 percent of scientists have no doubt about God’s existence. - See more at: news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study/#sthash.ixJN50us.dpuf - See more at: news.rice.edu/2014/02/16/misconceptions-of-science-and-religion-found-in-new-study/#sthash.ixJN50us.dpufwww.livescience.com/379-scientists-belief-god-varies-starkly-discipline.html About two-thirds of scientists believe in God, according to a new survey that uncovered stark differences based on the type of research they do. The study, along with another one released in June, would appear to debunk the oft-held notion that science is incompatible with religion. Those in the social sciences are more likely to believe in God and attend religious services than researchers in the natural sciences, the study found. Interesting stats. I was watching an interview the other day with a young man from the Creationist Museum and he agreed science was important, but if it contradicted the bible, it was us misinterpreting the findings. So that seemed to me to negate the whole reason for doing science, but it seemed to work for him. There are biologists that do agree that evolved that are religious. It doesn't prevent them from believing in God and the ones I've seen interviewed it seemed to make them all the more in awe of not only science but God and how they see God working. Personally I would have a hard time with that but it does work for some scientists. I think the people who have the hardest time are those who believe in the inerrancy of the bible, taking every word as literally meaning that in a historical sense. Even those who do believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and therefore without error seem to be better off if they can see some parts of it as metaphors. However, that is cherry picking which parts are symbolic, metaphors or literal. Otherwise there would be a lot of cognitive dissonance I would think.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 14:49:18 GMT -5
I understand your point, rational. Eskimo , or Inuit, like practically every culture around, already have a belief system, with many "worries". The traditional belief was there are good and bad spirits, with special rituals to check if a bad spirit is present. Children are believed to be embodied by the souls of dead relatives. Shaman can control bad spirits , transform into animals and perform dances to make hunts successfell. Seems like EVERY culture has a belief system, albeit not necasarily a religious one? Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 15:05:17 GMT -5
Nathan, I agree,I have also not seen ONE worker support themselves with their own hands. When our relative went into the work, one of the non professing parents was VERY concerned for their child's future, and was reassured repeatedly, by the head worker, that there was NOTHING to worry about and that the child will "WELL LOOKED AFTER". One could view that different ways, but not too many 'vocations" that hold out that kind of security . One pastor , we know, who is now supported by a congregation , said that he probably met and talked with more people about spirituality etc., when he was working at a tire shop, than when he was a full time pastor. Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 15:27:18 GMT -5
my.telegraph.co.uk/expat/annanicholas/10150866/hallelujah-the-angels-are-coming-to-save-magaluf/ Imagine lots of opportunity for volunteers with this group. Heard about them on BBC news and they do not fear to tread where MANY would, in Magaluf. " Many believe that the soul of bad boy resort Magaluf is beyond repair and yet a group of fearless volunteers are willing to put their faith to the test to prove otherwise............. Hopefully he’ll only find prostitutes in Magaluf." Alvin
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hberry
Senior Member
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Post by hberry on Aug 9, 2015 15:38:10 GMT -5
Nathan, I agree,I have also not seen ONE worker support themselves with their own hands. When our relative went into the work, one of the non professing parents was VERY concerned for their child's future, and was reassured repeatedly, by the head worker, that there was NOTHING to worry about and that the child will "WELL LOOKED AFTER". One could view that different ways, but not too many 'vocations" that hold out that kind of security . One pastor , we know, who is now supported by a congregation , said that he probably met and talked with more people about spirituality etc., when he was working at a tire shop, than when he was a full time pastor. Alvin Our pastor volunteers as a Chaplain half day at a local hospital so he gets a chance to interact with those in need who may not have a church. He said doing so has really deepened his faith.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 15:48:07 GMT -5
Until a person has 'entered" another person's "world", it is highly unlikely , there will be a great understanding of that other person. I appreciated Charles Price stance, the other day , when a church member , asked the church to publicly make a STATEMENT that they do NOT believe that a certain "group" is doing what is right, and that it was necessary for their testimony to publicly state that they were AGAINST this. Charles wisely asked, to the effect' , how does this affect you personally, do you have friends in this group, are you involved with someone who has this issue...........? Answer, was well, no, not really, ....... Well, if this conviction is laid on your heart, go and befriend these people, get to know them, enter their world, understand them, and walk alongside them, be their friend and maybe you can influence them in a good way........... Easy to condemn, but to become their friend?....... hmmmmmmmm Alvin
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2015 16:01:20 GMT -5
Until a person has 'entered" another person's "world", it is highly unlikely , there will be a great understanding of that other person. I appreciated Charles Price stance, the other day , when a church member , asked the church to publicly make a STATEMENT that they do NOT believe that a certain "group" is doing what is right, and that it was necessary for their testimony to publicly state that they were AGAINST this. Charles wisely asked, to the effect' , how does this affect you personally, do you have friends in this group, are you involved with someone who has this issue...........? Answer, was well, no, not really, ....... Well, if this conviction is laid on your heart, go and befriend these people, get to know them, enter their world, understand them, and walk alongside them, be their friend and maybe you can influence them in a good way........... Easy to condemn, but to become their friend?....... hmmmmmmmm Alvin Lead by example. You can't make changes at a core level by making rules or forbidding things. You need to have something in place that people want that makes the old way obsolete and/or less desirable than the new way if you want true change.
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2015 17:26:42 GMT -5
Bill Watterson does great comics with Calvin and Hobbes, with the "ignorance is bliss" , idea that us humans enjoy. [Calvin and Hobbes are riding along in their red wagon, careening through the woods]Calvin: It's true, Hobbes, ignorance is bliss! Once you know things, you start seeing problems everywhere ... and once you see problems, you feel like you ought to fix them ... and fixing problems always seems to require personal change ... and change means doing things that aren't fun! I say phooey to that![Moving downhill, they begin to pick up speed.]Calvin: [looking back at Hobbes] But if you're wilfully stupid, you don't know any better, so you can keep doing whatever you like! The secret to happiness is short-term, stupid self-interest!Hobbes: [looking concerned] We're heading for that cliff!Calvin: [hands over his eyes] I don't want to know about it.[They fly off the cliff: 'Waaaugghhh!']Hobbes: [after crash landing] I'm not sure I can stand so much bliss.Calvin: Careful! We don't want to learn anything from this. I miss "Calvin and Hobbes" (The Far Side, too.)
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hberry
Senior Member
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Post by hberry on Aug 9, 2015 17:59:38 GMT -5
Bill Watterson does great comics with Calvin and Hobbes, with the "ignorance is bliss" , idea that us humans enjoy. [Calvin and Hobbes are riding along in their red wagon, careening through the woods]Calvin: It's true, Hobbes, ignorance is bliss! Once you know things, you start seeing problems everywhere ... and once you see problems, you feel like you ought to fix them ... and fixing problems always seems to require personal change ... and change means doing things that aren't fun! I say phooey to that![Moving downhill, they begin to pick up speed.]Calvin: [looking back at Hobbes] But if you're wilfully stupid, you don't know any better, so you can keep doing whatever you like! The secret to happiness is short-term, stupid self-interest!Hobbes: [looking concerned] We're heading for that cliff!Calvin: [hands over his eyes] I don't want to know about it.[They fly off the cliff: 'Waaaugghhh!']Hobbes: [after crash landing] I'm not sure I can stand so much bliss.Calvin: Careful! We don't want to learn anything from this. I miss "Calvin and Hobbes" (The Far Side, too.) Me too, especially The Far Side.
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Post by howitis on Aug 9, 2015 21:25:55 GMT -5
You're wrong Ross.....think its time you went to vonvention!!
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 9, 2015 21:27:47 GMT -5
You're wrong Ross.....think its time you went to vonvention!! It used to happen years ago, but not that I an aware of in the last 20 plus years ! So where did it happen howitis ?
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 9, 2015 21:30:58 GMT -5
What? Do you mean no tested meetings at conventions in Australia or ? It is kinda understood here, in N America , that having the bread and wine at convention is wrong, as it is to be ONLY in a home, but it surprises me if no tested meetings at convention. wondering why ? Alvin
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 9, 2015 21:39:27 GMT -5
What? Do you mean no tested meetings at conventions in Australia or ? It is kinda understood here, in N America , that having the bread and wine at convention is wrong, as it is to be ONLY in a home, but it surprises me if no tested meetings at convention. wondering why ? Alvin They have bread & wine at Conventions in Australia ! Testing meeting at Convention used to happen years ago, but as far as I am aware that doesn't happen anymore. (There may be special cases where it does) but it is not the normal thing done.
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