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Post by bubbles on Jul 11, 2015 17:58:18 GMT -5
There is no blackmail at all. It is unfortunate you read my comment that way. Your comments read cruel and heartless towards people you once had fellowship with. People you once accepted as your brothers and sisters in christ. Continuing to play the emotional blackmail card is futile. I'm surprised you lower yourself to this. Frankly I doubt very much you recognise a brother or sister. I would have the courage to say it to your face. Your insults are worthless and have no impact. I have yet to see any love coming from you. You are a bully. Many workers are controlling manipulative bullies.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2015 23:07:25 GMT -5
JD, Yes, I understand that occurs. But often when people leave they don't just go.....they talk to workers etc. And the response they get (positive or negative) and what is said publicly certainly influences what the person leaving feels and often says about the fellowship subsequently. Those leaving would be less likely to be critical of aspects of the fellowship if they are not told that they are unwilling, had lost their faith etc. But maybe that doesn't happen today... This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Jondough, -if as you say you are truly "not exclusive," why do you just "bite your tongue," instead of speaking up and saying something?
It might be one of the best things that you can do,-to throw some enlightenment on the subject!
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Post by LouiseKeating on Jul 11, 2015 23:58:09 GMT -5
This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Jondough, -if as you say you are truly "not exclusive," why do you just "bite your tongue," instead of speaking up and saying something?
It might be one of the best things that you can do,-to throw some enlightenment on the subject!
Jesus cried too for the people who wouldn't follow him. Was he exlusive?
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Post by Mary on Jul 12, 2015 0:10:54 GMT -5
No, he accepted all who came to him. He accepted those who believed on Him. He was not excusive in that he said this group who were started by a guy just over 110 years ago are saved but these here who follow me are not.
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Post by jondough on Jul 12, 2015 0:27:50 GMT -5
This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Jondough, -if as you say you are truly "not exclusive," why do you just "bite your tongue," instead of speaking up and saying something?
It might be one of the best things that you can do,-to throw some enlightenment on the subject!
I don't try to jam things down people throat. When its talked about, I do let them know how I believe. Its pretty amazing how many actualy believe the same but also keep quiet.
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Post by LouiseKeating on Jul 12, 2015 0:31:14 GMT -5
No, he accepted all who came to him. He accepted those who believed on Him. He was not excusive in that he said this group who were started by a guy just over 110 years ago are saved but these here who follow me are not. but what about all those people then and now who dont accept and follow him?
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Post by Greg on Jul 12, 2015 0:35:32 GMT -5
Jondough, -if as you say you are truly "not exclusive," why do you just "bite your tongue," instead of speaking up and saying something?
It might be one of the best things that you can do,-to throw some enlightenment on the subject!
I don't try to jam things down people throat. When its talked about, I do let them know how I believe. Its pretty amazing how many actualy believe the same but also keep quiet. I think the thought is that the exclusivity is what holds the fellowship together. If you do not need to hear the workers, then you do not need the workers. If the form and traditions and rules/expectations are "just the way we do it," then there need be no adhering to them. The exclusivity holds it together. The love, even if conditional, is what makes it work.
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Post by jondough on Jul 12, 2015 0:35:55 GMT -5
Jondough, -if as you say you are truly "not exclusive," why do you just "bite your tongue," instead of speaking up and saying something?
It might be one of the best things that you can do,-to throw some enlightenment on the subject!
Jesus cried too for the people who wouldn't follow him. Was he exlusive? Luke 9:49 John answered, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.” I would say John was, but Jesus was not in the context of this conversation.
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Post by jondough on Jul 12, 2015 0:43:31 GMT -5
I don't try to jam things down people throat. When its talked about, I do let them know how I believe. Its pretty amazing how many actualy believe the same but also keep quiet. I think the thought is that the exclusivity is what holds the fellowship together. If you do not need to hear the workers, then you do not need the workers. If the form and traditions and rules/expectations are "just the way we do it," then there need be no adhering to them. The exclusivity holds it together. The love, even if conditional, is what makes it work. Holds what together? We meet together to encourage one another. Help each other understand and see. We try to live for something that is beyond earthly things. The Workers help us and encourage us, but if they all disappeared, does this mean we no longer have these things we are living for? I guess I'm not understanding what you're getting at.
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Post by Greg on Jul 12, 2015 1:09:46 GMT -5
I think the thought is that the exclusivity is what holds the fellowship together. If you do not need to hear the workers, then you do not need the workers. If the form and traditions and rules/expectations are "just the way we do it," then there need be no adhering to them. The exclusivity holds it together. The love, even if conditional, is what makes it work. Holds what together? We meet together to encourage one another. Help each other understand and see. We try to live for something that is beyond earthly things. The Workers help us and encourage us, but if they all disappeared, does this mean we no longer have these things we are living for? I guess I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addresses is for fear of excommunication. Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addressed is for disturbing the peace, especially for the older generation. I think the exclusivity holds the church/fellowship together. Without the exclusivity there could be questions about, if not outright refusal for, the need of workers and their ministry in regard to how it functions. And likely the rules/expectations would come into question, if not non-adherence. I think the love in the church/fellowship keeps the church/fellowship functioning. In varying degree, there are functions of the church of which some might think "we have to" and some might think "we want to". Are some able to determine an exclusivist from a non-exclusivist in the church? I think some could sit side by side in meeting and give prayer and testimony and each could think they have the same conviction on exclusivity. Perhaps that calls into question, do both the exclusivist and non-exclusivist love the Lord? If they do, then should they love all that love the Lord? I cannot say the exclusivist does.
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Post by LouiseKeating on Jul 12, 2015 1:17:34 GMT -5
Are they being exclusive or is it because people wont come to their missions?
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Post by Mary on Jul 12, 2015 5:15:05 GMT -5
Exclusiveness does hold exclusive groups together. If there was not exclusiveness then people would feel more free to join another congregation without fear of being lost, rejected or losing face. Exclusive groups would lose members. Meetings are a family business. Exclusiveness also makes it hard for outsiders to join.
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Post by jondough on Jul 12, 2015 9:30:48 GMT -5
Holds what together? We meet together to encourage one another. Help each other understand and see. We try to live for something that is beyond earthly things. The Workers help us and encourage us, but if they all disappeared, does this mean we no longer have these things we are living for? I guess I'm not understanding what you're getting at. Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addresses is for fear of excommunication. Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addressed is for disturbing the peace, especially for the older generation. I think the exclusivity holds the church/fellowship together. Without the exclusivity there could be questions about, if not outright refusal for, the need of workers and their ministry in regard to how it functions. And likely the rules/expectations would come into question, if not non-adherence. I think the love in the church/fellowship keeps the church/fellowship functioning. In varying degree, there are functions of the church of which some might think "we have to" and some might think "we want to". Are some able to determine an exclusivist from a non-exclusivist in the church? I think some could sit side by side in meeting and give prayer and testimony and each could think they have the same conviction on exclusivity. Perhaps that calls into question, do both the exclusivist and non-exclusivist love the Lord? If they do, then should they love all that love the Lord? I cannot say the exclusivist does. I'm a non-exclusive, and I think the Workers are a very important part of the Body of Christ. Christ being the head of course. I'm not sure how long you've been gone, but you have a very good point. It seems that the same people who are hard line exclusive, are also very wrapped up in the outward "rules & expectations". Some, much more than many of the Workers themselves. Do these people love others beyond our church? I can't tell you what is in their heart. I am pretty confident that they don't love them like a Brother though. Do they love the Lord? I think so but not for me to worry about. Yes, "love" holds and binds us together. Oh, are we worried about being ex-communicated? Not at all. I would never go on a tangent trying to convert everyone that doesn't want to even hear about it. I beleive when you speak in meeting, you should be sharing what fed you (your own needs), not trying to preach to other people's needs. When we share our own needs and how we have been fed, then this will also feed others. The ones that preach to everyone elses needs as if they have non themselves, to me come accross as self rightous, and do not contribute to the unity of the meeting, but rather take away. Does that answer your questions?
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Post by Greg on Jul 12, 2015 10:11:33 GMT -5
Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addresses is for fear of excommunication. Some contend the reason the non-exclusivity is not openly addressed is for disturbing the peace, especially for the older generation. I think the exclusivity holds the church/fellowship together. Without the exclusivity there could be questions about, if not outright refusal for, the need of workers and their ministry in regard to how it functions. And likely the rules/expectations would come into question, if not non-adherence. I think the love in the church/fellowship keeps the church/fellowship functioning. In varying degree, there are functions of the church of which some might think "we have to" and some might think "we want to". Are some able to determine an exclusivist from a non-exclusivist in the church? I think some could sit side by side in meeting and give prayer and testimony and each could think they have the same conviction on exclusivity. Perhaps that calls into question, do both the exclusivist and non-exclusivist love the Lord? If they do, then should they love all that love the Lord? I cannot say the exclusivist does. I'm a non-exclusive, and I think the Workers are a very important part of the Body of Christ. Christ being the head of course. I'm not sure how long you've been gone, but you have a very good point. It seems that the same people who are hard line exclusive, are also very wrapped up in the outward "rules & expectations". Some, much more than many of the Workers themselves. Do these people love others beyond our church? I can't tell you what is in their heart. I am pretty confident that they don't love them like a Brother though. Do they love the Lord? I think so but not for me to worry about. Yes, "love" holds and binds us together. Oh, are we worried about being ex-communicated? Not at all. I would never go on a tangent trying to convert everyone that doesn't want to even hear about it. I beleive when you speak in meeting, you should be sharing what fed you (your own needs), not trying to preach to other people's needs. When we share our own needs and how we have been fed, then this will also feed others. The ones that preach to everyone elses needs as if they have non themselves, to me come accross as self rightous, and do not contribute to the unity of the meeting, but rather take away. Does that answer your questions? Yup.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 12:35:03 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it.
Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out.
You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't.
The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree.
I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's.
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Post by emy on Jul 14, 2015 20:42:53 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. I've waited years for a post like this. Thanks for saying it SO well. To add a little credibility to it... I was in status 1 for 20+ years after I professed at age 12.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 14, 2015 21:30:20 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. Interesting perspective. I remember stanley March telling us he asked many many many professing people why they professed and he said almost all of them responded that fear was the reason and then they went on to develop a relationship ship. For sure, the relationship with God thankfully cannot be terminated by another "man" or by getting excommunicated, oor attending another church or not at all.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 15, 2015 1:07:30 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. The funny thing Ettu is that from what I can see, some people need to get away from the 'exclusive' line of preaching to be able to know the direct relationship with God. After I left the meetings I found it far easier to figure that relationship out. When I was still going I was told directly by a worker that a particular prayer that had been answered for me just couldn't have been because he (the worker) had a different answer to it. I felt that if I questioned what a worker said I was dammed to hell because they were 'closer to God that me' This is what I had learnt growing up. When I was still going to meetings I remember saying to people who'd left (if they started a conversation about meetings) 'I'm quite happy to listen to you but I'm not going anywhere. The meetings are right for me now' Nobody knows what the future holds. I went along happily for years but found that when my direct conviction from God was questioned as being untrue I could no longer continue. I'm not bashing the f&w. That's just my story. I know lots of people happy going to meetings. I also know lots of people happy not going. I just wish it wasn't such a spar off between the two 'sides'!!!
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Post by snow on Jul 15, 2015 10:51:19 GMT -5
I think one reason why there is so much hostility between the current members and the ones who have left for another Christian church boils down to doctrine differences. The atheists on here seem to get along with the current members better than those who left for another church. I watch the dialogue between the two and it's very much a war between belief systems with the ones who have left thinking they now know the truth and that those who are still in their old religion are just blind and can't see what they are missing. As an atheist I look at this with some bemusement because from where I'm standing neither groups make a lot of sense anymore. But saying one Christian group has it 'right' and another one is 'wrong' seems pretty unlikely. Everyone defines God differently with only similarities in common. No one knows for sure there is a God and no one knows for sure what religion that God is. Never mind what that God actually wants, if anything, from it's creation. But people have been fighting over their definition of what God is and what God wants for a very long time. If the group that has left the 2x2 group for another Christian group could just allow that they are happy where they are and the 2x2's are happy where they are, things wouldn't be so heated imo. But the way it works now the 2x2's feel the need to defend themselves all the time. The ones who have left make these generalized statements about doctrine that insinuate that if you don't believe what they believe, well then, you're going to hell, or you don't really have a 'right' relationship with God. No wonder the 2x2's feel defensive all the time. Then you look at how the 2x2's say (not all of them believe this) that all other Christian churches are false and no one outside of their church is going to heaven. That's a pretty blatant statement based on just how improbable it is that one tiny group of people on the face of this earth has it right and is therefore saved. So when you observe the thought patterns of these two groups you can see why there is constant bickering and hostility. The atheist members are used to being told they are likely headed for hell but those who worship the same God and believe they have given their lives to Jesus and try hard to be the best they can be, hearing they are 'lost out' because they have a bit of a different doctrine, well that must hurt. Maybe we could try to not make these assumptions and things would improve. JMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 12:18:20 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. I've waited years for a post like this. Thanks for saying it SO well. To add a little credibility to it... I was in status 1 for 20+ years after I professed at age 12. Thank you Emy. Very encouraging. I needed some encouragement. Thank you. As you say, and Stanley's questions report, professing for the wrong reasons, is not a spiritual killer. It certainly can be, as ex's attest. But that still small voice, indicating God's interest in you, will bring you to the truth between you and Him, if you listen. I think it meant a lot to many of us in our meeting when the wife of our elder, a very sincere and well regarded lady, gave her testimony one morning, about how she as a young girl had professed so many years ago, largely out of fear. One of those dark (in those days) nights on a Convention Saturday night. The red and black(?) horses of Revelation, fire and brimstone, a lost eternity, and so forth. A pretty common preaching anywhere in Christianity back in those days. But over the years, she began to realize, almost without realizing it, that it was about love. Over the years it had turned into love. That's all she said!? She didn't have to say a whole lot more. Of all the testimonies she gave, only the Spirit of which remain, that is the only one whose words I remember. She was in her 60's by that time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 12:21:33 GMT -5
I find this tread dishonest.
There is not one person on this board worker, friend or ex who knows and does everything right.
God is the only judge.
When you pray can you be so judgmental of your fellow man?
Before God there is a right and wrong way. His will is revealed by his spirit. Not because you follow a worker.
Go back and read what Jesus said about those who were so full of themselves in his day. He said the publicans and harlots would enter the kingdom of God before they would. Does that not scare you for being so self righteous?
Please have mercy on one another. That is our only hope for salvation.
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Post by maryhig on Jul 15, 2015 13:03:59 GMT -5
I find this tread dishonest. There is not one person on this board worker, friend or ex who knows and does everything right. God is the only judge. When you pray can you be so judgmental of your fellow man? Before God there is a right and wrong way. His will is revealed by his spirit. Not because you follow a worker. Go back and read what Jesus said about those who were so full of themselves in his day. He said the publicans and harlots would enter the kingdom of God before they would. Does that not scare you for being so self righteous? Please have mercy on one another. That is our only hope for salvation. Marie, i was going to post that exact scripture on here after I finished my tea, because it came into my head earlier after i read what snow had written, and in that that chapter Jesus said exactly that. That the publicans and the harlots would enter in before them. But he didn't just say that the harlots would enter before them, but he also never said that the others who he was rebuking won't get in, he just said others will be before them. So they still had a chance. Therefore we can't judge one single person. Who we think as wrong, God might just see differently! Because we don't know all Gods thoughts! I believe faith is important, and the way is Jesus, but regardless of my beliefs, I wouldn't dare say who is and who isn't going to heaven that's not anyone's decision, only Gods. And your right, only God is our judge, no man!
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 15, 2015 14:47:40 GMT -5
Exclusiveness does hold exclusive groups together. If there was not exclusiveness then people would feel more free to join another congregation without fear of being lost, rejected or losing face. Exclusive groups would lose members. Meetings are a family business. Exclusiveness also makes it hard for outsiders to join. It is very reassuring for many people. I certainly grew up believing that I was incredibly blessed for being born into a way that was the only right way to heaven - it was quite self-righteous looking back but certainly reassuring. Any exclusive group thinks this way whether they be JW's, Mormons, Exclusive Brethren etc. I only believed it because it was constantly reinforced. I was thinking today about when I dropped the whole exclusive thing and it was simply when God, in His grace, brought me into contact with faithful Christians outside of the church I had grown up in. My first thought was "How can it be?" but when I got to know them and witnessed their love and zeal for the Lord it made me realise that God was simply saying to me "Don't put boundaries on my power...don't try and keep me in your little box...". I could agree with what you are saying with the following (bolded) edits: It is very reassuring for many people. I certainly grew up believing that I was incredibly blessed for being born into a way that was the only right way to heaven - it was quite self-righteous looking back but certainly reassuring. Any exclusive group thinks this way whether they be JW's, Mormons, Exclusive Brethren, Christian etc. I only believed it because it was constantly reinforced. I was thinking today about when I dropped the whole exclusive thing and it was simply when God, in His grace, brought me into contact with other human beings outside of the church I had grown up in. My first thought was "How can it be?" but when I got to know them and witnessed their love and zeal for life it made me realise that God was simply saying to me "Don't put boundaries on my power...don't try and keep me in your little box..."
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Post by emy on Jul 15, 2015 17:08:54 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. Would anyone dare make this post of the week #2? Just wondering
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 15, 2015 17:39:18 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. Would anyone dare make this post of the week #2? Just wondering After the choosing of the markwooten post, I, for one, would vote to discontinue the "post of the week" designation all together. From my perspective, that did nothing to commend either the writer or the chooser - and I now have a whole lot more cynicism/warimess over the administrators/foundation of this forum. I don't know if I am entirely clear over exactly what ettu is saying (his writing style does not lend itself to my ready comprehension). But, yes, I spent much of my 2X2 life separating (in my mind) those who "got it" from those who didn't. It had little to do with who was a member of the group, though for many years I thought members of the group were perhaps more likely to "get it" than non-members. (That changed about age 25 for me with some questions I was willing to ask myself then..) In leaving, IMO, I did not "lose it". (I am not Christian exclusive, either, and wasn't for many years while I was still a member.) My journey since has been simply a continuation of what I have perhaps almost always known - a continually deepening understanding of who I am and what I am doing here -but with fewer roadblocks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 18:46:10 GMT -5
I think one reason why there is so much hostility between the current members and the ones who have left for another Christian church boils down to doctrine differences. The atheists on here seem to get along with the current members better than those who left for another church. I watch the dialogue between the two and it's very much a war between belief systems with the ones who have left thinking they now know the truth and that those who are still in their old religion are just blind and can't see what they are missing. As an atheist I look at this with some bemusement because from where I'm standing neither groups make a lot of sense anymore. But saying one Christian group has it 'right' and another one is 'wrong' seems pretty unlikely. Everyone defines God differently with only similarities in common. No one knows for sure there is a God and no one knows for sure what religion that God is. Never mind what that God actually wants, if anything, from it's creation. But people have been fighting over their definition of what God is and what God wants for a very long time. If the group that has left the 2x2 group for another Christian group could just allow that they are happy where they are and the 2x2's are happy where they are, things wouldn't be so heated imo. But the way it works now the 2x2's feel the need to defend themselves all the time. The ones who have left make these generalized statements about doctrine that insinuate that if you don't believe what they believe, well then, you're going to hell, or you don't really have a 'right' relationship with God. No wonder the 2x2's feel defensive all the time. Then you look at how the 2x2's say (not all of them believe this) that all other Christian churches are false and no one outside of their church is going to heaven. That's a pretty blatant statement based on just how improbable it is that one tiny group of people on the face of this earth has it right and is therefore saved. So when you observe the thought patterns of these two groups you can see why there is constant bickering and hostility. The atheist members are used to being told they are likely headed for hell but those who worship the same God and believe they have given their lives to Jesus and try hard to be the best they can be, hearing they are 'lost out' because they have a bit of a different doctrine, well that must hurt. Maybe we could try to not make these assumptions and things would improve. JMT Thanks Snow, Well said. Off the subject a bit, but I think one of the reasons Europe, starting decades ago, has been seeing more and more tourists and less and less members in their historic churches, is that the members recognize their Christian selves in the recent turmoil on their doorstep in the Muslim world. Their Christian history being played out, feelings, conflicts, attitudes, being relived. So you see it on this forum. As someone standing on the side might understandably say, a pox on all their houses.
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Post by withlove on Jul 18, 2015 10:05:33 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. The teaching that a group is the only group could be openly criticized without compromising respect and love. In my personal experience, I had a close bond with God as a child. He talked to me. The fear came later as I soaked in more of the message in gospel meetings. So it became a love and fear combination. I "got it," and noticed when people didn't. I consider myself to have been blind somewhat even though I had an active, loving relationship with God. It saddens me that others are living the same experience unnecessarily. "Not unto men I labor"..."Alone with God"...all the hymns and prayers and testimonies along those lines (I had them all myself, too), are not sufficient to clearly explain to a child or adult that this church is not the only right church. It needs to be said.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 18, 2015 20:29:36 GMT -5
It seems like one of the defining characteristics of many ex's is that they believed "this way", meaning "this group" is God's way. So that was a pretty compelling reason to join. Fear was part of it. Really, it's a rather simple thing. If you've made your choice for God, and so have those who gather with you, well then yes, you all are in God's way. His way is our way, our way is His way. We are, as Jesus prophesized, all as one. Not that hard to understand. Of course, one of the things forums like this reveal, is a lot of people made their choice for "this group", or otherwise they feared they might be left out. You've got to wonder during all the gospel meetings, how they feel inside when the parable of the wise and the foolish was preached. But still if you look like, act like, talk like, dress like, and so are accepted by, and are to all appearances part of the same group, well maybe you too ARE part of God's way? At least hopefully, maybe, until someday, you'll "get it" too, just like those who have the oil? Maybe if you die God will accept you along with your "friends" and companions because you've at least made your choice for them. The trouble is, you didn't make your choice for Him, and you don't know Him. Eventually you know it. For one thing, you have to "ask the workers", because you believe at least they have the oil, meaning by default, you don't. The bad thing it seems, is that you begin to believe most of your "friends" are probably just like you. After all how could it be that some of them "got it" but you didn't? The blind leading the blind is exactly how a lot of ex's regularly describe the f&w. To little if any objection from other ex's, apparently they agree. I am so glad for those of the friends who may have "professed" for fear, or to cover their bets, who realizing the truth, say so in their testimony, and you can see it in their walk. Not in a condemning of the innies way like so many ex's do, but in a, "Oh, it's all about ME and GOD". Their testimony is worth 1,000 plus 1 of the aforementioned, and commonly seen here ex's. There was no fear as far as professing or should I say acknowledging christ and loving God from preschool age. 14yr was the age I publisised what had believed a long time. I dont know anyone who sees themselves as wise as for foolish nobody I know wants to appear foolish either. Please dont include me in your box of 'the blind leading the blind'. I see most christian groups as part of the body of christ. ( any that promote him as Saviour and speak of the born again experience.) I dont recall being taught that subject by the workers I think over time and the influence of the internet seeds being sown its like the topic of demons. Over time it sinks in becomes acknowledged as minds are renewed by the word of God. Ettu in all seriousness and with due respect you wouldnt have a clue what exs feed on.
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