hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 18:53:35 GMT -5
By connecting at the core level I didn't mean core "values". More like "kindred spirits". Well, that was the phrase that eluded me. Yes, totally agree.
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Post by Greg on Jul 10, 2015 19:01:38 GMT -5
The workers say they give the Gospel freely while at the same time go into the work knowing that they will receive rent free board and keep, a free car and travel. Willis Propp spelt it out clearly when he wrote and signed a legal document stating that the workers were guaranteed free board and keep. I am sure Review did not arrive in the US recently with just the shirt on his back and no where to stay. I'm sure he arranged somewhere to stay, someone to pick him up and credit card in his pocket. Hardly going out in faith and hardly giving the Gospel freely. Seems as if they think that anyone who steps inside a church has to pay an entry fee. Pastors are paid by those who want to give the same as workers. Very few ask for money like the workers ask for meals and accommodation. Mary - you will be roundly criticised for stating the obvious! The obvious is they do not ask for a free will offering or have any money fees.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 19:04:50 GMT -5
I never grizzled once review. Nor was I an unhappy camper so you didn't know me at all. I read a book that we were started by men, went to my elder told him I would like a break, didnt say why. The worker rang asking why, told her I had read a book where it said we were started by men, and in the course of the conversation said I had been to a baptist church. She said she didnt deny that we were started by men but said I was blinded because I had been in a Baptist church. I cried and that was that.
They came to visit once after that which was nice. You have read the rest of my story. I never spoke to anyone and didn't realize other people had left and became Christians until 10 years later when i met an ex.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 19:06:59 GMT -5
Sadly those of us who know Christ and enjoy rich fellowship in the church aren't missing the likes of you too much either. @@@@ Review 005, are you saying those who leave can't know fellowship with Christ? The VOT editor complained about some of your tactics and I am beginning to see the same thing in you. Enjoy your conventions and have a good day.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:07:34 GMT -5
The workers say they give the Gospel freely while at the same time go into the work knowing that they will receive rent free board and keep, a free car and travel. Willis Propp spelt it out clearly when he wrote and signed a legal document stating that the workers were guaranteed free board and keep. I am sure Review did not arrive in the US recently with just the shirt on his back and no where to stay. I'm sure he arranged somewhere to stay, someone to pick him up and credit card in his pocket. Hardly going out in faith and hardly giving the Gospel freely. Seems as if they think that anyone who steps inside a church has to pay an entry fee. Pastors are paid by those who want to give the same as workers. Very few ask for money like the workers ask for meals and accommodation. Mary - you will be roundly criticised for stating the obvious!
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 19:09:05 GMT -5
Nor do most churches ask for free will offerings but do send bags around but even that is going out with internet. The pastor does not run the church in many churches. The churches do not ask for fees. The workers ask and expect free board and keep. It goes with the job. I like the openness of collections in church rather than under the table, hand shake jobs
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 19:09:11 GMT -5
JD, I have no real expectation of what a worker might do. If a person from church stopped coming I know the minister would reach out to them and also the bible study leader of the bible study they were in to make sure they are okay. All I'm saying is that if a person in your church leaves it would help the church and its image if a worker reached out to them. It would also help if the worker didn't say or preach that those who left had lost their faith when they have no idea! The Dr does not position themselves as a shepherd and doesn't send out a letter to his other patients criticising those folk who may have left his or her practice as deficient. I Ross excuse me but once again you are showing your ignorance. Workers DO reach out to people when they stop coming or are considering stopping coming. Your analogy about the shepherd/doctor another of the ridiculous and irrelevant analogies you make. Review, they must only reach out to certain people then !
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Post by bubbles on Jul 10, 2015 19:10:33 GMT -5
Mary you see everything in our church as so wrong. You made the right decision to leave. It was the definitely the right decision for you. You were an unhappy camper. Sadly those of us who know Christ and enjoy rich fellowship in the church aren't missing the likes of you too much either. It was hard work for you and hard work for us to put up with your grizzles and carry on. Sincere best wishes to you in the better richer life you have found in your baptist or whatever church that you have now. It is a winner both ways Much better for you to be there and to be a happy baptist camper than an unhappy camper in our camp is it not? You know what review with where Ive been lately. I thought i had lost my fight. Your words shock me. How dare you speak like that to anyone? What gives you that right? Im sure the people that I know that you know would be horrified. A worker. Comeon man
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Post by Greg on Jul 10, 2015 19:23:33 GMT -5
Nor do most churches ask for free will offerings but do send bags around but even that is going out with internet. The pastor does not run the church in many churches. The churches do not ask for fees. The workers ask and expect free board and keep. It goes with the job. I like the openness of collections in church rather than under the table, hand shake jobs Would you say mainstream churches present their version of the gospel in their regular church services? Do some mainstream churches (somewhat) sponsor missionaries that speak in the United States and they ask for a free will offering? The other stuff you wrote is really not about "freely ye have received, freely give".
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 19:31:40 GMT -5
Adding to that how many workers ring jesse and say let's meet for coffee I need a friend to chat with and tell him their problems? That is connecting at a core level. Not many workers visit alone and don't reach out at core levels to their congregation. P.s. I am not sure if jesse is male or female. Help me out here. I'm a man - I do think there is a difference in how men vs women view the friend thing. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. I've had many "kindred spirit" connecting-at-the-core-level conversations with workers. And many with people outside the fellowship too.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 19:31:40 GMT -5
There was no grizzly carry on at all. I was an innocent obliging professing girl and woman. My mother would turn over in her grave if she heard you say that.
She was rather happy when I first left as she was a thinking woman and was always keen to hear what churches taught about different parts of the Bible and always said she knew people outside were saved. She read a number of Christian books and hungry for the word.
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 19:33:34 GMT -5
Here's another perspective in regards to someone leaving; If someone is going to the doctor, then decides to go to anotherr doctor that they feel is better...or decides that they no longer need a doctor...is the doctor suppose to keep chasing them? So in regards to our workers, they are only in fields, many times for one year. They maybe see them at meetings as a "hi" at the door, and maybe a couple of nights in their home. They are not life time friends. They were in the field to try to not only encourage them through the meetings, and maybe find lost souls in that field. So, since they were never really close friends....and this person no longer wants their encouragement/help/fellowship..... What is it that you expect the worker to do? I'm referring to Workers only. Not lifetime friends you grew up wiith that left. JD, I have no real expectation of what a worker might do. If a person from church stopped coming I know the minister would reach out to them and also the bible study leader of the bible study they were in to make sure they are okay. All I'm saying is that if a person in your church leaves it would help the church and its image if a worker reached out to them. It would also help if the worker didn't say or preach that those who left had lost their faith when they have no idea! The Dr does not position themselves as a shepherd and doesn't send out a letter to his other patients criticising those folk who may have left his or her practice as deficient. I Ross, When someone misses meetings, or has missed meetings for a while, then of course the Workers and Elders check on them to find out what is going on. They walk the fine line of not offending them by acting as though they are being critical for missing meetings. This is the normal process before someone leaves. But then once they actually make the decision to leave for good, this is when contact is normally lost. They have made a decision to move on, it is accepted by the F&W, and unless you're good friends with that person beyond the normal meeting type fellowship, each one goes their separate ways - just like in most group type relationships....sports, clubs, or whatever.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 19:35:17 GMT -5
I read some pages in a book. So much of your life revolves around having a crack at exes, review.
I do not go to a Baptist church
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 19:36:45 GMT -5
Do you know what his anglican minister colleagues said to him? They said "Leave those people alone they are good people".
Interesting. That happens more than people realize. I know of a few times ministers have defended the workers and friends.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 21:02:56 GMT -5
Nor do most churches ask for free will offerings but do send bags around but even that is going out with internet. The pastor does not run the church in many churches. The churches do not ask for fees. The workers ask and expect free board and keep. It goes with the job. I like the openness of collections in church rather than under the table, hand shake jobs Would you say mainstream churches present their version of the gospel in their regular church services? Do some mainstream churches (somewhat) sponsor missionaries that speak in the United States and they ask for a free will offering? The other stuff you wrote is really not about "freely ye have received, freely give". The churches I have attended do not present their version of the Gospel, they present the Bible. They do not add to it saying Jesus plus us, They say Jesus is the Gospel. That is a major difference between many churches and groups that claim they are the way. Some churches sponsor missionaries and why not? A person usually contacts a missionary organisation if they want to go to a certain area of the world. I would think more for safety reasons. I don't consider a missionary to be in the US unless visiting. My understanding of missionaries is someone who goes to preach to people who have not heard the Gospel or to help the people set up churches in an area. My picture is third world countries, not so called Christian countries. The first people to take the Gospel to the US were in my mind missionaries. If a church wants to have a collection for a missionary then that is their choice. If you want to give some money to a missionary then that is your choice. Keep in mind the church is the people and if people want to do that then again, that is their choice.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 10, 2015 21:18:09 GMT -5
I never read any book by any anglican minister. I never read the secret sect until perhaps 15 years later. Didn't know a book existed. I read a couple of pages in a book written many moons ago. My book does not say i was unhappy in. It talks of my life is in. We don't know anything is wrong while in. We had nothing else to compare it with. Mary; sorry I have difficulty believing what you post. You have even contradicted yourself with the posts you have made here! You first say you read a book and then say you read a couple of pages. What is the point of it all? I accept you are a happy camper in the Baptist Church. That's great, I wish you well there. I have found Christ in my youth in this church and am happy there. I'm amazed so much of your life still revolves around having a crack at the church you left. But then I guess I shouldn't be it is a common disorder. Cherie has it, Ross has it, quite a few others have it. Anyway all the best there in the Baptist camp that you find so much better than the church you left. The one you wrote a book about and still post prolifically about. It is a disorder is it not? Erm, I'm not sure it's Mary that has the 'disorder'
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 21:25:41 GMT -5
I never grizzled once review. Nor was I an unhappy camper so you didn't know me at all. I read a book that we were started by men, went to my elder told him I would like a break, didnt say why. The worker rang asking why, told her I had read a book where it said we were started by men, and in the course of the conversation said I had been to a baptist church. She said she didnt deny that we were started by men but said I was blinded because I had been in a Baptist church. I cried and that was that. They came to visit once after that which was nice. You have read the rest of my story. I never spoke to anyone and didn't realize other people had left and became Christians until 10 years later when i met an ex. Where did I say I read the Secret Sect? I said I read a book that (said) we were started by men. It is your interpretation of what you thought I said, Review. I did not contradict myself. Your life revolves around having a crack at exes who have their say. I see now why you are so against Ross as he goes to an Anglican church of which the author of the Secret Sect became a minister in after he left meetings. As much as I like the Baptist church I have not been attending one regularly for a number of years. Why go past a number of churches to get to a Baptist church when there is a good one within walking distance. Getting in a car driving past a whole lot of churches to find one that suits me is not my idea of a Sunday. I prefer a nice relaxing walk to one.
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Post by jondough on Jul 11, 2015 0:18:24 GMT -5
Ross, When someone misses meetings, or has missed meetings for a while, then of course the Workers and Elders check on them to find out what is going on. They walk the fine line of not offending them by acting as though they are being critical for missing meetings. This is the normal process before someone leaves. But then once they actually make the decision to leave for good, this is when contact is normally lost. They have made a decision to move on, it is accepted by the F&W, and unless you're good friends with that person beyond the normal meeting type fellowship, each one goes their separate ways - just like in most group type relationships....sports, clubs, or whatever. JD, Yes, I understand that occurs. But often when people leave they don't just go.....they talk to workers etc. And the response they get (positive or negative) and what is said publicly certainly influences what the person leaving feels and often says about the fellowship subsequently. Those leaving would be less likely to be critical of aspects of the fellowship if they are not told that they are unwilling, had lost their faith etc. But maybe that doesn't happen today... This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Example is when Hberry left, someone spoke about it in our meeting with tears. It was in no way milicious or devious. They truly believed she was headed to a lost eternity. I knew that she still loves Christ, and simply finds more encouragement fellowshipping with another group. The person that spoke was truly concerned for her and her husband. I do know that though the majority are exlusive, there are many that don't believe this, the same way I don't. We were raised being told this, and those that told us this were also told this themselves. None of it is malicious or ill intent. I think it started with WI, and I think he believed it himself. Many still believe this, and thats ok, I can deal with it. I still find good fellowship, and encouragement despite these differences. Anyway, this is the long explanation of why those that talk about those that have left the way they do.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 11, 2015 0:52:21 GMT -5
You know what review with where Ive been lately. I thought i had lost my fight. Your words shock me. How dare you speak like that to anyone? What gives you that right? Im sure the people that I know that you know would be horrified. A worker. Comeon man Bubbles tell me which of the above statements I have made is untrue or incorrect. Please don't think you will silence me with your blackmailing tactics. Sorry I do not bow to this dishonourable tactic you have lowered yourself to use. Bubbles, pay no attention to review005! This the way he treats everyone that dares to not agree with him.
There seems to be a burr up his butt that he can't dislodge.
Thankfully, certainly not all workers are like him and no doubt some are ashamed of him.
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Post by bubbles on Jul 11, 2015 6:59:42 GMT -5
You know what review with where Ive been lately. I thought i had lost my fight. Your words shock me. How dare you speak like that to anyone? What gives you that right? Im sure the people that I know that you know would be horrified. A worker. Comeon man Bubbles tell me which of the above statements I have made is untrue or incorrect. Please don't think you will silence me with your blackmailing tactics. Sorry I do not bow to this dishonourable tactic you have lowered yourself to use. There is no blackmail at all. It is unfortunate you read my comment that way. Your comments read cruel and heartless towards people you once had fellowship with. People you once accepted as your brothers and sisters in christ.
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Post by Greg on Jul 11, 2015 8:07:11 GMT -5
Would you say mainstream churches present their version of the gospel in their regular church services? Do some mainstream churches (somewhat) sponsor missionaries that speak in the United States and they ask for a free will offering? The other stuff you wrote is really not about "freely ye have received, freely give". The churches I have attended do not present their version of the Gospel, they present the Bible. They do not add to it saying Jesus plus us, They say Jesus is the Gospel. That is a major difference between many churches and groups that claim they are the way. Some churches sponsor missionaries and why not? A person usually contacts a missionary organisation if they want to go to a certain area of the world. I would think more for safety reasons. I don't consider a missionary to be in the US unless visiting. My understanding of missionaries is someone who goes to preach to people who have not heard the Gospel or to help the people set up churches in an area. My picture is third world countries, not so called Christian countries. The first people to take the Gospel to the US were in my mind missionaries. If a church wants to have a collection for a missionary then that is their choice. If you want to give some money to a missionary then that is your choice. Keep in mind the church is the people and if people want to do that then again, that is their choice. I thank you for your reply, Mary. I don't want to get too far off from my initial thought and post about the workers giving the Gospel freely. That being stated, I will make a few comments on other matters. You wrote: " The workers say they give the Gospel freely while at the same time go into the work knowing that they will receive rent free board and keep, a free car and travel. Willis Propp spelt it out clearly when he wrote and signed a legal document stating that the workers were guaranteed free board and keep." The workers say they give the Gospel freely. And they do. You included a "but" in your sentence which really does not apply. A person could write "I drive a Ford pick-up, but I buy unleaded fuel with ethanol." Other things: Gospel and Bible. The workers present their version, their interpretation of the Gospel and the Bible. just as other churches present their interpretation, their version of the Gospel and the Bible. Now one could contend "Other churches present just the Bible with no add-ons." I do not know if that is possible. Room and board. The workers are not guaranteed room and board, regardless of what Willis Propp wrote (if he did, I do not know what he wrote). Oh, there might be a conditional guarantee. "The workers will get room and board as they maintain the powers-that-be expectations of preaching and behavior and as long as others will provide such due to their appreciation of us and their ability. As to what Willis Propp wrote, did he need to indicate to a governing body that the workers would not be a burden to their society?
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hberry
Senior Member
Posts: 743
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Post by hberry on Jul 11, 2015 9:43:12 GMT -5
JD, Yes, I understand that occurs. But often when people leave they don't just go.....they talk to workers etc. And the response they get (positive or negative) and what is said publicly certainly influences what the person leaving feels and often says about the fellowship subsequently. Those leaving would be less likely to be critical of aspects of the fellowship if they are not told that they are unwilling, had lost their faith etc. But maybe that doesn't happen today... This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Example is when Hberry left, someone spoke about it in our meeting with tears. It was in no way milicious or devious. They truly believed she was headed to a lost eternity. I knew that she still loves Christ, and simply finds more encouragement fellowshipping with another group. The person that spoke was truly concerned for her and her husband. I do know that though the majority are exlusive, there are many that don't believe this, the same way I don't. We were raised being told this, and those that told us this were also told this themselves. None of it is malicious or ill intent. I think it started with WI, and I think he believed it himself. Many still believe this, and thats ok, I can deal with it. I still find good fellowship, and encouragement despite these differences. Anyway, this is the long explanation of why those that talk about those that have left the way they do. That's one of the hardest aspects of leaving: you know that people you care about will be hurt and there is nothing you can do about it. They can't imagine that your fellowship with God and with His people is as sweet as it ever was, just in a different format. Whatever the reason folks come up with (unwilling, bitter, lost their revelation, etc), I don't see that as malicious, even if the label doesn't fit. I've certainly put the wrong labels on others myself, so I understand how it works.
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Post by snow on Jul 11, 2015 12:08:14 GMT -5
This is where I defer from some, not all. I am not exclusive. So when I hear how they have lost out, many times with tears, I many times just bite my tongue. Example is when Hberry left, someone spoke about it in our meeting with tears. It was in no way milicious or devious. They truly believed she was headed to a lost eternity. I knew that she still loves Christ, and simply finds more encouragement fellowshipping with another group. The person that spoke was truly concerned for her and her husband. I do know that though the majority are exlusive, there are many that don't believe this, the same way I don't. We were raised being told this, and those that told us this were also told this themselves. None of it is malicious or ill intent. I think it started with WI, and I think he believed it himself. Many still believe this, and thats ok, I can deal with it. I still find good fellowship, and encouragement despite these differences. Anyway, this is the long explanation of why those that talk about those that have left the way they do. That's one of the hardest aspects of leaving: you know that people you care about will be hurt and there is nothing you can do about it. They can't imagine that your fellowship with God and with His people is as sweet as it ever was, just in a different format. Whatever the reason folks come up with (unwilling, bitter, lost their revelation, etc), I don't see that as malicious, even if the label doesn't fit. I've certainly put the wrong labels on others myself, so I understand how it works. I agree. I know I'm repeating myself here, but as I've said many times, the hardest part of leaving was hurting my parents because they truly believed I was lost to them for eternity. I know my dad died believing that, but I think my mom near the end changed that way of thinking a little. When you love them you don't want to hurt them, but you also need to be true to yourself. I could not believe their was a God and if the Christian God existed I could not in good conscience support worship of him.
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Post by withlove on Jul 11, 2015 13:14:27 GMT -5
That's one of the hardest aspects of leaving: you know that people you care about will be hurt and there is nothing you can do about it. They can't imagine that your fellowship with God and with His people is as sweet as it ever was, just in a different format. Whatever the reason folks come up with (unwilling, bitter, lost their revelation, etc), I don't see that as malicious, even if the label doesn't fit. I've certainly put the wrong labels on others myself, so I understand how it works. I agree. I know I'm repeating myself here, but as I've said many times, the hardest part of leaving was hurting my parents because they truly believed I was lost to them for eternity. I know my dad died believing that, but I think my mom near the end changed that way of thinking a little. When you love them you don't want to hurt them, but you also need to be true to yourself. I could not believe their was a God and if the Christian God existed I could not in good conscience support worship of him. So hard & sad. Now, sometimes people say to not despair, because some people have professed after their parents have died. They are encouraged to remember that God loves their children/other loved ones more than they could, and he doesn't ignore all the interceding prayers for them. So that is nice that the burden of heartbreak is somewhat lifted. Not sure if that message has spread world-wide or not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2015 14:59:44 GMT -5
Isn't fellowship closer then friendship?
Does that not go beyond friendship which mean liking someone for the natural things about them?
Fellowship to me is communication about things of heaven and encouraging one another in our struggle with things of this life. To me that is a much more meaningful relationship them friendship.
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Post by matisse on Jul 11, 2015 15:04:59 GMT -5
Isn't fellowship closer then friendship? Does that not go beyond friendship which mean liking someone for the natural things about them? Fellowship to me is communication about things of heaven and encouraging one another in our struggle with things of this life. To me that is a much more meaningful relationship them friendship. Here's what Mirriam-Webster has to say: fellowship noun fel·low·ship \ˈfe-lə-ˌship, -lō-\ : a friendly relationship among people : the relationship of people who share interests or feelings : a group of people who have similar interests
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2015 15:11:29 GMT -5
Is that a yes or no matisse. I can be friends with my neighbor and not share any interest.
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Post by matisse on Jul 11, 2015 16:10:32 GMT -5
Is that a yes or no matisse. I can be friends with my neighbor and not share any interest. You share a boundary! I posted the Mirriam-Webster definition for reference. That is the 1st definition. None of the definitions in M-W mention God. Here is another set of definition from CollinsDictionary.com that does make a reference to Christian "fellowship": fellowship (ˈfɛləʊˌʃɪp Pronunciation for fellowship )
Definitions noun
1. the state of sharing mutual interests, experiences, activities, etc 2. a society of people sharing mutual interests, experiences, activities, etc; club 3. companionship; friendship 4. the state or relationship of being a fellow 5 a. mutual trust and charitableness between Christians b. a Church or religious association 6. (education) a. a financed research post providing study facilities, privileges, etc, often in return for teaching services b. a foundation endowed to support a postgraduate research student c. an honorary title carrying certain privileges awarded to a postgraduate student 7. (often capital) the body of fellows in a college, university, etc
I'm not trying to be ornery! Just pointing out that the word "fellowship" is used to describe a wide range of experiences and situations, including friendship. I think you may be referring to "Christian Fellowship" in particular.
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