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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 23:20:31 GMT -5
Hey Review I would be interested on your views of Domestic Violence & what you feel is the responsibility of the F&W to help stop the problem. I have started a thread on this issue
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 23:23:02 GMT -5
Agree Faune - but like Wally I was hoping the video would move a bit faster.... Seriously though at the end of the day, this technology is just going to become more pervasive and people can put it up for the world to see. An organisation can either adopt a "head in the sand" approach or they can try and deal with it. As I said previously, it's pretty easy to do deal with. I wonder if the day will ever occur that: (a) a person could have a decent chat over a meal or coffee with a worker over the person moving to another Christian church and the worker would genuinely listen as to why (maybe it does in some places) and not judge them but wish them all the best as they continue life in Christ (b) in line with (a) the worker doesn't say that they are sad that they person has lost their faith (when clearly they haven't) and (c) the worker would keep in touch with them (and vice versa) to see how the person is going in their new fellowship Ross I wonder if the day will occur when Ross understands that not every ex member wishes for a, b, c above. I'm surprised you are so unaware of the efforts workers make to communicate and keep in touch with ex members. Have they not done that with you? If they haven't do you think you may be the reason for that? Ross do you wish your family and friends all the best as they continue life in Christ in the church you? If you do how do you do it when you say the church has cult behaviour and doctrinal problems? Ross do you feel it would be honest for a worker to wish an ex all the best as they continue life in Christ in a new church when after a decent chat over a coffee or a meal and hearing about the new church they could understand the new church's doctrine and practice was not in line with scripture? Ross do you understand that workers DO keep in touch with exes. Of course they won't continue that if the person makes it clear they don't wish for the worker to keep in touch. Is this something that is only done in NZ, Review ? have not had one worker visit me since I left 6 years ago, not one has even asked why I stopped going !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 9, 2015 23:38:03 GMT -5
What no answer Review !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 10, 2015 0:25:07 GMT -5
Hello Roselyn, Well... I've vacillated back and forth whether to answer you or not. First of all I get the impression you presume not, I feel like if I say yes, you'll just dismiss it for whatever reason that justifies your continued attitude. If I say no, well then I feel you'll just dismiss whatever I have to say as, you just don't know. So, I feel like responding would just be loose loose situation with you. And probably a bunch of others here too. So I wonder, why waste any of our time. But, maybe it'll help... I don't know... so, Yes I was sexually abused. I was a young man, and I happened to be in a born again Christian retreat down in St Louis. We slept in a common area, not unlike the bunk houses at convention, except it was all on the floor. No beds. I woke up one morning, fully erect, to find a guy had his hand around my penis, rhythmically stroking and squeezing it. As I became aware of what was going on, I was obviously a bit shocked. He had quite a delighted leer on his face. I cracked him in the head, he curled up in simpering ball, I got myself together and walked out. Regarding domestic violence? Please... I'm in my early 60's. I've seen a lot. Yes, you should do what Marie complains the F&W did, run away. And do what is recommended, call the cops. Thank you Ettu for answering my question. So if you have been sexual abused why not have more understanding of how long healing takes ? I have seen a lot too, some people heal quicker than others. Some bury things for many years and its only when they feel comfortable being able to talk about their abuse that healing can start.
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Post by jondough on Jul 10, 2015 10:27:47 GMT -5
Here's another perspective in regards to someone leaving;
If someone is going to the doctor, then decides to go to anotherr doctor that they feel is better...or decides that they no longer need a doctor...is the doctor suppose to keep chasing them?
So in regards to our workers, they are only in fields, many times for one year. They maybe see them at meetings as a "hi" at the door, and maybe a couple of nights in their home. They are not life time friends. They were in the field to try to not only encourage them through the meetings, and maybe find lost souls in that field.
So, since they were never really close friends....and this person no longer wants their encouragement/help/fellowship.....
What is it that you expect the worker to do?
I'm referring to Workers only. Not lifetime friends you grew up wiith that left.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 10:42:07 GMT -5
Worker should only care for those in the area they reside?
Workers not friends for life?
Does that mean that when a worker said from the platform that "if you can not treat other on earth right how do you expect to be in heaven with them"? Did he mean only the friends should consider how they treat one and other. Workers get a pass and can treat others how ever they want.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 10:43:57 GMT -5
Maybe the real question is how do you think Jesus expect his servant to treat others?
How do you think God expects his children to treat one another?
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 10, 2015 12:12:43 GMT -5
This is what I have often referred to as being stuck in a rut. If they have moved on to something better they should put their terrible past behind them and move on to what is a "better life" as they say. Having said that I do realize that some of those old csa offenses among us, as well as many other religious groups, should have been, and should be dealt with. All of us have failures in one way or another but if you can't put the past behind you there is no way you can move forward. Paul spoke of himself as being chief of sinners but he learned to put the past behind him (which was a terrible past)...and press toward the mark... I don't recall that the Christians of that day continually berated him for his crimes. Most have put their past behind them. Is being on this board meaning they have not moved on - remember you are on this board too? Is talking about their past experiences meaning they have not moved on - not a sign to me? I wonder how you know people on here have not moved on? Do you have inside knowledge of people's lives? Perhaps it's you who is stuck? I have inside informationof a number of people on this board and great sympathy for bad experiences. But what I am saying is that there is such a contemptuous attitude that suggest they can't let go. Some things people have said are no doubt true but some are also false. I have attempted to get to the heart of some negative chatter here but in some cases all I get is that they are repeating something that somebody said that somebody else said that somebody else said.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 12:35:34 GMT -5
Here's another perspective in regards to someone leaving; If someone is going to the doctor, then decides to go to anotherr doctor that they feel is better...or decides that they no longer need a doctor...is the doctor suppose to keep chasing them? So in regards to our workers, they are only in fields, many times for one year. They maybe see them at meetings as a "hi" at the door, and maybe a couple of nights in their home. They are not life time friends. They were in the field to try to not only encourage them through the meetings, and maybe find lost souls in that field. So, since they were never really close friends....and this person no longer wants their encouragement/help/fellowship..... What is it that you expect the worker to do? I'm referring to Workers only. Not lifetime friends you grew up wiith that left. I agree jondough. None of the workers were ever my friends, so the only reason I might expect them to call me once I've left is out of pastoral concern (that is, invite me to gospel meeting) if they are assigned to the field I'm in. I never called the workers just to chat, so I wouldn't expect them to call me just to chat either. As far as I can see, they figure if you've left, you've left and it's up to Jesus to go chase you down and bring you back. I can't imagine what the workers would say if they called me. Ask about the bible study I'm in? What the pastor preached on last Sunday? New interest in the church? We could talk about my cat, I suppose, but I'm just not seeing it working for either side. None of them really knows me personally, so it would seem like "cold calling." Who wants to do that?
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Post by maryhig on Jul 10, 2015 12:58:30 GMT -5
I agree jondough. None of the workers were ever my friends, so the only reason I might expect them to call me once I've left is out of pastoral concern (that is, invite me to gospel meeting) if they are assigned to the field I'm in. I never called the workers just to chat, so I wouldn't expect them to call me just to chat either. As far as I can see, they figure if you've left, you've left and it's up to Jesus to go chase you down and bring you back. I can't imagine what the workers would say if they called me. Ask about the bible study I'm in? What the pastor preached on last Sunday? New interest in the church? We could talk about my cat, I suppose, but I'm just not seeing it working for either side. None of them really knows me personally, so it would seem like "cold calling." Who wants to do that? You had many workers stayed in your homes and none of them you believe that you could be friends with? You were in the fellowship for a long time. From reading many of your posts on here you're a very caring person, you love people.That's what is thinking, how can people stay in your home and none of them bond with you in friendship, especially if your both of God! I think I'd become quite close to some. I love talking about God. So if I had someone staying with me with the same beliefs, I reckon we'd hit it off, well with at least some of the people that stay anyway! And form great friendships?
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 13:00:35 GMT -5
I agree jondough. None of the workers were ever my friends, so the only reason I might expect them to call me once I've left is out of pastoral concern (that is, invite me to gospel meeting) if they are assigned to the field I'm in. I never called the workers just to chat, so I wouldn't expect them to call me just to chat either. As far as I can see, they figure if you've left, you've left and it's up to Jesus to go chase you down and bring you back. I can't imagine what the workers would say if they called me. Ask about the bible study I'm in? What the pastor preached on last Sunday? New interest in the church? We could talk about my cat, I suppose, but I'm just not seeing it working for either side. None of them really knows me personally, so it would seem like "cold calling." Who wants to do that? You had many workers stayed in your homes and none of them you believe that you could be friends with? You were in the fellowship for a long time. From reading many of your posts on here you're a very caring person, you love people that would attract the friends and workers.I was friendly with all of them, Nathan, but that's different from being friends with them. You are right, I still care about them and wish them well. However, I was raised that you weren't "friends" with the workers, you didn't engage with them socially--especially as a young women with the young brother workers and then as a married woman with any brother worker. The sister workers for the most part weren't interested in what I was interested in, so I never got close of any of them. That doesn't mean I didn't like them--we just never engaged outside of the framework of church. I never got to know them, nor they me really. Odd how much upbringing plays a part in your social relationships! Thanks for asking Nathan.
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Post by xna on Jul 10, 2015 13:00:48 GMT -5
None of the workers were ever my friends, so the only reason I might expect them to call me once I've left is out of pastoral concern (that is, invite me to gospel meeting) if they are assigned to the field I'm in. An interesting comment; " None of the workers were ever my friends ". It sounds like the F&W in your area was held together more by duty, than love for one another. That's a sad arrangement, especially for a Christian group.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 13:08:24 GMT -5
You had many workers stayed in your homes and none of them you believe that you could be friends with? You were in the fellowship for a long time. From reading many of your posts on here you're a very caring person, you love people. That's what is thinking, how can people stay in your home and none of them bond with you in friendship, especially if your both of God! I think I'd become quite close to some. I love talking about God. So if I had someone staying with me with the same beliefs, I reckon we'd hit it off, well with at least some of the people that stay anyway! And form great friendships? At least in my neck of the woods, the workers went to their bedrooms when they came to your house and came out for meals. We tried to engage them in scriptural talk, but outside of the morning bible study with them, there wasn't much scriptural talk. My Mom commented a few years ago that the workers came and went for years but she didn't know any of them very well except the sister worker she professed through who had died. I suspect it has to do with how outgoing you are. I'm an introvert, as were both my parents. I find it much easier to talk scripture with my friends from other churches than I did with the friends. Just me I suppose.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 13:09:55 GMT -5
None of the workers were ever my friends, so the only reason I might expect them to call me once I've left is out of pastoral concern (that is, invite me to gospel meeting) if they are assigned to the field I'm in. An interesting comment; " None of the workers were ever my friends ". It sounds like the F&W in your area was held together more by duty, than love for one another. That's a sad arrangement, especially for a Christian group. It sometimes felt that way, but again, it might just be my personality and I can't blame anyone else for that. Much as I'd like to!
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 15:43:11 GMT -5
None of the workers were ever my friends, Getting older hasn't helped me understand what "being friends" means. I feel as alone as I always have: To the point of saying I have no friends. (Friends that stand out from others, could you say exclusive friends?) Yet I treat everyone I know in person as my friend. I've mentioned it before - a co-worker recently told me "you ALWAYS look for the good in everyone" almost like it was a bad thing. We were talking about how to work with people who you perceive have done you wrong. That's really where the rubber meets the road. Does "being friends" imply a deeper connection than loving your neighbor as yourself - like you always think alike? What does it actually mean?
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 15:48:59 GMT -5
Always seeing the good in someone could mean you don't want to get involved and are ignoring something that needs to be talked about and dealt with. Sweeping it under the carpet.
As for your question, haven given it thought yet but we don't love everyone including our neighbours. I think it is better to say treat others how you would want to be treated but then that's not answering your question.
Another attempt at answering. No being friends does not mean always thinking alike. It means respecting each others opinions. Respecting each other in spite of differences.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 15:53:44 GMT -5
None of the workers were ever my friends, Getting older hasn't helped me understand what "being friends" means. I feel as alone as I always have: To the point of saying I have no friends. (Friends that stand out from others, could you say exclusive friends?) Yet I treat everyone I know in person as my friend. I've mentioned it before - a co-worker recently told me "you ALWAYS look for the good in everyone" almost like it was a bad thing. We were talking about how to work with people who you perceive have done you wrong. That's really where the rubber meets the road. Does "being friends" imply a deeper connection than loving your neighbor as yourself - like you always think alike? What does it actually mean? I seek daily to allow the Holy Spirit to teach me more about loving my neighbor as myself(and it is a work in progress for sure) , but love is not the same thing as friendship. I could be lovingly kind to someone I don't like who needs my help, but we wouldn't be friends. I define "being friends" as someone I would call up on a whim and ask to coffee "just to chat." I have a few of those people in my life, and I've just acquired a few more. When I see their name on my cellphone I smile, and when I hang up, I have a satisfied glow of time well spent. You don't have to like the people you are called to love, but it would be odd to have a friend you didn't like. Shared interests and mutual respect are likely at the heart of being friends with someone. It doesn't mean they are perfect; it just means that something about them makes you glad to share your time to them.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 16:06:40 GMT -5
If I had to define friend in the context of this conversation I'd say a friend is someone you can connect with at a core level, and can discuss anything with without there being any drama. I've made that kind of connection with many workers, friends, and many outside the fellowship.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 16:18:20 GMT -5
I think it is more than just connecting at a core level. There are lots of people I can connect with at a core level but don't call them my close friends. They are friends but not close friends. Guess there's different levels of friendships. Like hberry said a friend is one you can ring and share with. Talk about anything and everything and not feel judged. Someone you can just be yourself with knowing they won't judge you. Someone who is not afraid to say I don't agree and you don't get hurt because you know they have your best interest at heart.
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Post by rational on Jul 10, 2015 16:50:37 GMT -5
Maybe the real question is how do you think Jesus expect his servant to treat others? How do you think God expects his children to treat one another? There are many examples provided in the bible.
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Post by emy on Jul 10, 2015 17:09:58 GMT -5
I think it is more than just connecting at a core level. There are lots of people I can connect with at a core level but don't call them my close friends. They are friends but not close friends. Guess there's different levels of friendships. Like hberry said a friend is one you can ring and share with. Talk about anything and everything and not feel judged. Someone you can just be yourself with knowing they won't judge you. Someone who is not afraid to say I don't agree and you don't get hurt because you know they have your best interest at heart. Wouldn't that define connecting at a core level?
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 17:21:00 GMT -5
Of course you need to connect at a core level. Depends what you mean by core level. The way jesse described it didn't seem the same degree of core level. Most people only connect with a few at this level to be called close friends. They are often lifelong friends.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 10, 2015 17:36:25 GMT -5
This person told me of being in church as a teenager and the minister was speaking straight to the congregation. Several of the church committee men got up right there and then and said "That's enough, you are done". That was the last he ever preached in that church. Why could a minister not be able speak truth to his congregation? Could it be anything to do with the financial dependency he has on them? Is this a biblical form of church government? review005's quote: "Why could a minister not be able speak truth to his congregation? Could it be anything to do with the financial dependency he has on them? Is this a biblical form of church government?"
This has always been the refrain of WORKERS! They actually pride themselves on it! I have heard that over & over again!
"I haven't been hired so I can't be fired!
That is precisely the reason that they have so much control over the people!
NO ONE can do anything without their OK! It is the WORKERS who decide everything in the 2x2's!
THEY say where the conventions are & when they are to be held , THEY decide which workers go to which fields & the borders of those fields!
They decide who can have the meeting in their home, (who is worthy enough in their sight) They even decide which meeting each person is to attend,- matters not one whit how far a person might have to go! EVERYTHING is by their consent only!
Do you know what such a form of "church" government this is called?
An oligarchy, a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people . These people could be distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, education, corporate, religious or military control.
Throughout history, oligarchies have often been tyrannical (relying on public obedience and/or oppression to exist).
That whole system of oligarchy lends itself ripe for fraud & being unaccountable to the people. and
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 17:48:42 GMT -5
The workers obsession over money continues to speak volumes to me.
Often heard we are poor homeless preachers which no longer fooled me when my eyes were opened and I saw this was not true. Nothing homeless about them. They don't even have to pay rent which is a reason a lot of people are on the streets. That is what homeless is.
They don't have to beg for their next meal but i guess ringing up people asking to come for dinner is a form of begging.
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Post by Mary on Jul 10, 2015 18:34:17 GMT -5
The workers say they give the Gospel freely while at the same time go into the work knowing that they will receive rent free board and keep, a free car and travel. Willis Propp spelt it out clearly when he wrote and signed a legal document stating that the workers were guaranteed free board and keep.
I am sure Review did not arrive in the US recently with just the shirt on his back and no where to stay. I'm sure he arranged somewhere to stay, someone to pick him up and credit card in his pocket. Hardly going out in faith and hardly giving the Gospel freely. Seems as if they think that anyone who steps inside a church has to pay an entry fee. Pastors are paid by those who want to give the same as workers. Very few ask for money like the workers ask for meals and accommodation.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Jul 10, 2015 18:36:19 GMT -5
I think it is more than just connecting at a core level. There are lots of people I can connect with at a core level but don't call them my close friends. They are friends but not close friends. Guess there's different levels of friendships. Like hberry said a friend is one you can ring and share with. Talk about anything and everything and not feel judged. Someone you can just be yourself with knowing they won't judge you. Someone who is not afraid to say I don't agree and you don't get hurt because you know they have your best interest at heart. Wouldn't that define connecting at a core level? You know, what I actually think makes a friend is more than core values, which are important, but shared interests and a quirk of personality that makes a good fit. Shared core values are wonderful, but if that's all you have, then you can end up with what I call "church friends." People you share a slice of Christianity with but you can't necessarily talk about the things in life that interest you outside of scripture: horses, cats, drought tolerant gardens, RC airplanes, model trains, quilting, knitting--that sort of thing. When you share both core values (or most of them) and personal shared interests, you add depth to your relationship. I'm not arguing with you, or finding fault with what was said, just saying that what I had in mind eludes my description at the moment.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 18:44:17 GMT -5
By connecting at the core level I didn't mean core "values". More like "kindred spirits".
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 10, 2015 18:47:22 GMT -5
The workers obsession over money continues to speak volumes to me. Often heard we are poor homeless preachers which no longer fooled me when my eyes were opened and I saw this was not true. Nothing homeless about them. They don't even have to pay rent which is a reason a lot of people are on the streets. That is what homeless is. They don't have to beg for their next meal but i guess ringing up people asking to come for dinner is a form of begging. The workers say they give the Gospel freely while at the same time go into the work knowing that they will receive rent free board and keep, a free car and travel. Willis Propp spelt it out clearly when he wrote and signed a legal document stating that the workers were guaranteed free board and keep. I am sure Review did not arrive in the US recently with just the shirt on his back and no where to stay. I'm sure he arranged somewhere to stay, someone to pick him up and credit card in his pocket. Hardly going out in faith and hardly giving the Gospel freely. Seems as if they think that anyone who steps inside a church has to pay an entry fee. Pastors are paid by those who want to give the same as workers. Very few ask for money like the workers ask for meals and accommodation. Continuous obsession over the friends and workers speaks volumes to me.
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