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Post by xna on Jun 8, 2015 16:28:17 GMT -5
Ah shame, that's just frustration isn't that awful caging animals like that, they should be free in their own environment! Doesn't it appear they understand fairness? I think most all animals that have a social connection / pack understand what's right and wrong. That's what keeps the order in the herd. I would like to see animal free too. Sadly many humans work in a cubicle too.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:30:58 GMT -5
The difference between you and me I guess is that I don't see anything as fine tuned. We have what we have because that's how it is. If it was even a tiny bit different, we would see something else and likely say the same thing, 'look at how finely tuned our universe is'. We see what is and think it's amazing that such a thing could exist without there being a God. But if we were sentient beings in a different world, because of different origins, we'd likely still be saying the same thing because that's whatwould be normal for us. Things were not created so we could exist in them like we do, but rather we are simply the end product of what is. After a few million years I am sure there were dinosaurs that thought they were the 'end product'. It didn't work out well for them and I doubt we are the 'end product' either! Things may be fine-tuned for humans now but one errant good sized asteroid and it would look more like co ckroaches were the planned 'end product'! The use of the word 'end product' wasn't meant to mean were were the last outcome. I meant we were the product of a universe because of what it was, not because it was fine tuned for us. I doubt we are the 'end' product but whatever comes in the future they will just be a product of their environment, which if a asteroid does hit, could look a whole lot different than it does now.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:38:27 GMT -5
So your telling me that every single person that does wicked things has a faulty brain? Sorry but I don't believe that for a minute? You hear of many people that have a conscience when they do seriously wrong things, even handing themselves in to the police, and some truly regretting what they've done so it can't always be the brain! Also, where do you think our conscience comes from? It often works against our own thoughts, as you said "a pricked conscience" to be pricked we must have had a different thought in the first place, so the conscience must be working against our nature! No that's not exactly what I'm saying. Conscience is a learned thing for the most part imo. Depending on which culture you live in decides what you believe is right and wrong. An example would be the friends believing that the only way to salvation is by hearing the gospel through the workers and professing through them in a gospel meeting and going on to be baptized by a worker and trying to live as much like the workers expect you to. They would have a different 'conscience prick' than you do about many things. An example would be some of them would not feel it was right to have a TV, to listen to music other than a hymn. Yet you don't have the same 'conscience prick' when you watch TV or listen to 'worldly music'. Why is that? Because this isn't how you were raised and of course it's a cultural thing. A sub culture to be sure, but a culture of the f & w's. Many things that might prick your conscious would not prick mine, yet I am probably just as loving, kind and compassionate as you. Maybe not, but I don't think I'm a horrific monster just because I don't believe in the Christian God. So part of what people do is their upbringing, what they have been taught is right and wrong. Part of it is a brain that is flawed, that doesn't allow the person to feel empathy etc. Or you can have a mental illness that causes you to have poor anger management and in the heat of the moment you react and then afterwards because your brain does allow for empathy, you feel great remorse for your actions. There are so many ways the brain dictates who we are as a personality. A good, kind and patient person can have a brain injury that turns them into an inpatient, nasty angry individual. Is it that person's fault? So it's a combination of things that make people the way they are. I'm just saying that an all knowing, all loving God should know this and to punish his creation because of things beyond their control, does not make sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Firstly, I don't think your any kind of monster but I do believe our conscience is from God. And I believe different people have different strengths of a conscience, I also believe that peoples hearts can get worse and worse if we allow wickedness in. I don't feel that a person saying they believe in God always has the kindest heart. You can get some wicked people who say the believe yet I'm my opinion use God to hide behind! The brain may well do many things, but it wouldn't be alive without a spirit within us. And I believe our spirit uses the brain for communication, just like the spirit has use of the rest of the body whilst it is in us.
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Post by rational on Jun 8, 2015 16:39:38 GMT -5
Only if the people are laughing too, but I don't remember doing it nastily. Honestly I don't! I don't remember saying it was nasty. Slapstick thrives on it. Pratfalls are always enjoyed. A pie in the face makes many observers smile (especially if we believe the person deserved it).
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:41:00 GMT -5
I don't believe that it had anything to do with a faulty brain in many cases I'm afraid. The people are wicked, Hitler didn't have a faulty brain. He was evil. And because he listened to a wrong spirit he got worse and worse until he turned into he was a tyrant! He was listening to wickedness in his heart, and if he had of listened to his pricked conscience early on then maybe. he wouldn't have done the atrocities he did! Also, if you wouldn't let a child killer in your home, why would God let wicked spirits mix with his children in heaven which is his home. These people have a choice, do or don't do. They choose to do it, and they will receive what God thinks they deserve. In this life or the next! Did you even read what I said? If someone dies and no longer has a wicked 'spirit' why would God segregate you from them? If you loved and understood why they did what they did, why would you want them segregated for that matter? As I stated in the above post, no not all people who do 'bad' things have a faulty brain. However, Hitler could be said to have had definite issues. His upbringing and life circumstances probably contributed. Have a read about his medical status and you might see him in a slightly different light. Doesn't make what he did right, but it gives a better understanding of possibly what contributed to it. www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/74776.phpNo matter how much I love my child, if he/she murdered a child I would want them imprisoned so they don't hurt others!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:42:07 GMT -5
Ah shame, that's just frustration isn't that awful caging animals like that, they should be free in their own environment! Doesn't it appear they understand fairness? I think most all animals that have a social connection / pack understand what's right and wrong. That's what keeps the order in the herd. I would like to see animal free too. Sadly many humans work in a cubicle too. But one thing animals don't know and that is that they're being judged, we have the chance to know this!
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:42:49 GMT -5
If it is not your brain doing the thinking and deciding what is? Why does all of that thinking activity stop as soon as certain drugs are administered? Why does a brain tumor cause a change in thought processes? You can blame wicked spirits and give credit where you wish but without a functioning brain all is quiet. You, and only you, are responsible for your behavior. You can try to blame the wicked spirit when you harm another but you are still responsible. Behavior and intelligence are independent features of your brain. Unfortunately, there are people who derive pleasure from the discomfort of others. In fact, it is somewhat of a human trait. We have all laughed at the misfortune of others. But at some point society frowns on causing that discomfort. Actually, so does nature. And no one get threatened with punishment. Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart! Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! Everyone has a brain disorder to some degree. No one is exempt, except for possibly Rational! But you're right that there are fewer people out there that have no ability to feel empathy. We are totally responsible for our actions because there isn't anyone other than us to blame. However, we are a product of how our brain functions and our cultural upbringing so while we are responsible, sometimes we aren't entirely conscious of wrong doing. You think mental illness is rare? Not really. If depression is classed as a mental illness, there certainly is lots of that going around. And, anyone who has been clinically depressed will tell you that they are definitely a different person while depressed. If you have schizophrenia, which a good portion of society does have, or bipolar, you do have a harder time of controlling some aspects of behavior and in the case of schizophrenia, difficulty even recognizing what is reality. So while we are responsible for our actions, need to be kept from society if our actions harm others etc. it is still an issue of how much we could have done about it given the functioning of our brains. Back to my point about God, why should someone be punished eternally for something their brain caused them to do?
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:43:37 GMT -5
Only if the people are laughing too, but I don't remember doing it nastily. Honestly I don't! I don't remember saying it was nasty. Slapstick thrives on it. Pratfalls are always enjoyed. A pie in the face makes many observers smile (especially if we believe the person deserved it). Ah right, I see what you mean, I have laughed at things like that, but I wouldn't want anyone to be hurt.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 16:49:13 GMT -5
Absolutely, you and only you are responsible for your actions and you can't blame anyone else human or spirit, we are responsible for our own actions because God gives us free will. We have a choice, only a very few have a brain disorder, as you said some derive pleasure so this definitely not a brain disorder. But wickedness of the heart! Oh, and animals etc. Don't have the ability to discern what's right and wrong. They kill for food. And they haven't been told that there are consequences for their actions. We have! Also I really don't remember laughing at someone's misfortunes, I may have done so at some point in my life. But I truly don't remember doing that! I hope I haven't! Everyone has a brain disorder to some degree. No one is exempt, except for possibly Rational! But you're right that there are fewer people out there that have no ability to feel empathy. We are totally responsible for our actions because there isn't anyone other than us to blame. However, we are a product of how our brain functions and our cultural upbringing so while we are responsible, sometimes we aren't entirely conscious of wrong doing. You think mental illness is rare? Not really. If depression is classed as a mental illness, there certainly is lots of that going around. And, anyone who has been clinically depressed will tell you that they are definitely a different person while depressed. If you have schizophrenia, which a good portion of society does have, or bipolar, you do have a harder time of controlling some aspects of behavior and in the case of schizophrenia, difficulty even recognizing what is reality. So while we are responsible for our actions, need to be kept from society if our actions harm others etc. it is still an issue of how much we could have done about it given the functioning of our brains. Back to my point about God, why should someone be punished eternally for something their brain caused them to do? Snow, I'm not God but. I think he may have the right judgement on whether people are sick or doing things out of wickedness. He's a righteous judge. He knows all our hearts, and I'm sure he'll know who has had a choice, and who hasn't through sickness, or no fault of their own!
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:54:13 GMT -5
No that's not exactly what I'm saying. Conscience is a learned thing for the most part imo. Depending on which culture you live in decides what you believe is right and wrong. An example would be the friends believing that the only way to salvation is by hearing the gospel through the workers and professing through them in a gospel meeting and going on to be baptized by a worker and trying to live as much like the workers expect you to. They would have a different 'conscience prick' than you do about many things. An example would be some of them would not feel it was right to have a TV, to listen to music other than a hymn. Yet you don't have the same 'conscience prick' when you watch TV or listen to 'worldly music'. Why is that? Because this isn't how you were raised and of course it's a cultural thing. A sub culture to be sure, but a culture of the f & w's. Many things that might prick your conscious would not prick mine, yet I am probably just as loving, kind and compassionate as you. Maybe not, but I don't think I'm a horrific monster just because I don't believe in the Christian God. So part of what people do is their upbringing, what they have been taught is right and wrong. Part of it is a brain that is flawed, that doesn't allow the person to feel empathy etc. Or you can have a mental illness that causes you to have poor anger management and in the heat of the moment you react and then afterwards because your brain does allow for empathy, you feel great remorse for your actions. There are so many ways the brain dictates who we are as a personality. A good, kind and patient person can have a brain injury that turns them into an inpatient, nasty angry individual. Is it that person's fault? So it's a combination of things that make people the way they are. I'm just saying that an all knowing, all loving God should know this and to punish his creation because of things beyond their control, does not make sense to me. Does it make sense to you? Firstly, I don't think your any kind of monster but I do believe our conscience is from God. And I believe different people have different strengths of a conscience, I also believe that peoples hearts can get worse and worse if we allow wickedness in. I don't feel that a person saying they believe in God always has the kindest heart. You can get some wicked people who say the believe yet I'm my opinion use God to hide behind! The brain may well do many things, but it wouldn't be alive without a spirit within us. And I believe our spirit uses the brain for communication, just like the spirit has use of the rest of the body whilst it is in us. I acknowledge you don't see me as a monster. But I could be. I could have damage to the area of the brain that controls my anger management. So could you. I would be a very different person if I injured that area of the brain. Knowing this, I do not believe that we have a mind or spirit that is separate from the workings of our brain. We have an ability to process things which I call the mind, but that mind processing is totally dependent on what shape my brain is in. Hormones also alter our personalities. I had a pretty good lesson in that when I had my hysterectomy. I had been on high doses of birth control pills before the surgery to control the bleeding. I was on them for quite a few months before I was able to have surgery due to a nurses strike. When I had the total hysterectomy I was totally amazed and somewhat scared because I couldn't watch TV, the sound irritated me too much. I couldn't read all the books I brought into the hospital because I couldn't concentrate enough to get to the end of a sentence and know what I had just read. That scared me and upset me because I thought I could get some reading time caught up while in the hospital. I couldn't sleep and I had to walk because I felt such high levels of restlessness. People visiting me had to walk with me if they wanted to visit. They put me on hormones a couple of days later and slowly my world became recognizable again. But if I had lived before the time of hormone replacement what would I have done. I am hopeful that it all would have evened out again on it's own given time, but I don't know that and in the meantime my life would have been hell. I was not the same person that walked into the hospital and all that changed was hormones. So I have a great deal of empathy for people because I do know just how much these things make us who we are.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:57:42 GMT -5
Did you even read what I said? If someone dies and no longer has a wicked 'spirit' why would God segregate you from them? If you loved and understood why they did what they did, why would you want them segregated for that matter? As I stated in the above post, no not all people who do 'bad' things have a faulty brain. However, Hitler could be said to have had definite issues. His upbringing and life circumstances probably contributed. Have a read about his medical status and you might see him in a slightly different light. Doesn't make what he did right, but it gives a better understanding of possibly what contributed to it. www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/74776.phpNo matter how much I love my child, if he/she murdered a child I would want them imprisoned so they don't hurt others! Me too. I don't disagree with what you're saying. But what does that have to do with a person who has died, is no longer attached to the physical brain, and has remorse for what happened and then have a God who knows all this stuff say, too bad, so sad, you're brain wasn't a real good one but who cares, to hell with you for eternity. So once again, yes in a physical world I advocate segregation from society if we harm them, but in an afterlife, why would God do this knowing what he supposedly does know?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 16:59:04 GMT -5
really depends. if you've done something worthy of judgment or prison and didn't go you might have to answer to God later on... I.E pay now or pay later So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? I don't think any of us is so perfect that we could dare to wish for divine retribution to fall on someone else's head. Aren't we all depending on the blood of Jesus to wash away our own sins?
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 16:59:21 GMT -5
Doesn't it appear they understand fairness? I think most all animals that have a social connection / pack understand what's right and wrong. That's what keeps the order in the herd. I would like to see animal free too. Sadly many humans work in a cubicle too. But one thing animals don't know and that is that they're being judged, we have the chance to know this! Why should we be judged? We do, as people, judge each other and usually unfairly, but we are just told that there is a being at the end of life that judges us and finds us wanting. Sounds like God is a lot like us. He judges and punishes because that's what we do.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 17:00:32 GMT -5
Everyone has a brain disorder to some degree. No one is exempt, except for possibly Rational! But you're right that there are fewer people out there that have no ability to feel empathy. We are totally responsible for our actions because there isn't anyone other than us to blame. However, we are a product of how our brain functions and our cultural upbringing so while we are responsible, sometimes we aren't entirely conscious of wrong doing. You think mental illness is rare? Not really. If depression is classed as a mental illness, there certainly is lots of that going around. And, anyone who has been clinically depressed will tell you that they are definitely a different person while depressed. If you have schizophrenia, which a good portion of society does have, or bipolar, you do have a harder time of controlling some aspects of behavior and in the case of schizophrenia, difficulty even recognizing what is reality. So while we are responsible for our actions, need to be kept from society if our actions harm others etc. it is still an issue of how much we could have done about it given the functioning of our brains. Back to my point about God, why should someone be punished eternally for something their brain caused them to do? Snow, I'm not God but. I think he may have the right judgement on whether people are sick or doing things out of wickedness. He's a righteous judge. He knows all our hearts, and I'm sure he'll know who has had a choice, and who hasn't through sickness, or no fault of their own! If there is a God we can only hope that you're right about that.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 17:04:15 GMT -5
So everyone needs to 'pay'? Is that why so many people hope there is a God? To make sure all those that got away with things in this life will get theirs when they die? I don't think any of us is so perfect that we could dare to wish for divine retribution to fall on someone else's head. Aren't we all depending on the blood of Jesus to wash away our own sins? I'm not so sure of that. I have had people tell me that Hitler deserves to be in the worst of hells. Does he, given his mental health status? Eternity is a long time to be punished. Personally, no, I'm not depending on a blood sacrifice and I don't believe we 'sin', at least not in the sense that Christians think we do. Yes we make lots of mistakes but I don't see them as sins. Blood sacrifice does seem to be important in religions though. Many of them have believed the sacrifice of a pure one or virgin was necessary for redemption.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 17:11:59 GMT -5
No matter how much I love my child, if he/she murdered a child I would want them imprisoned so they don't hurt others! Me too. I don't disagree with what you're saying. But what does that have to do with a person who has died, is no longer attached to the physical brain, and has remorse for what happened and then have a God who knows all this stuff say, too bad, so sad, you're brain wasn't a real good one but who cares, to hell with you for eternity. So once again, yes in a physical world I advocate segregation from society if we harm them, but in an afterlife, why would God do this knowing what he supposedly does know? Well as I said i think, it would depend on many things, but I feel one would be if they knew and purposely carried on, knowing it was sinful, and secondly not knowing because they are sick that God would take that into consideration. But I'm not God. But I know he will judge righteously!
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 17:17:46 GMT -5
I don't think any of us is so perfect that we could dare to wish for divine retribution to fall on someone else's head. Aren't we all depending on the blood of Jesus to wash away our own sins? I'm not so sure of that. I have had people tell me that Hitler deserves to be in the worst of hells. Does he, given his mental health status? Eternity is a long time to be punished. Personally, no, I'm not depending on a blood sacrifice and I don't believe we 'sin', at least not in the sense that Christians think we do. Yes we make lots of mistakes but I don't see them as sins. Blood sacrifice does seem to be important in religions though. Many of them have believed the sacrifice of a pure one or virgin was necessary for redemption. I have just read about Hitler, and a doctor who read all his medical notes and researched all different information said that he didn't believe that the atrocities Hitler committed were due to any sickness. Even though he had many illnesses. Also, We can't say who should go to where when we die, and I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. Only God can decide those things.
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Post by snow on Jun 8, 2015 17:27:26 GMT -5
I'm not so sure of that. I have had people tell me that Hitler deserves to be in the worst of hells. Does he, given his mental health status? Eternity is a long time to be punished. Personally, no, I'm not depending on a blood sacrifice and I don't believe we 'sin', at least not in the sense that Christians think we do. Yes we make lots of mistakes but I don't see them as sins. Blood sacrifice does seem to be important in religions though. Many of them have believed the sacrifice of a pure one or virgin was necessary for redemption. I have just read about Hitler, and a doctor who read all his medical notes and researched all different information said that he didn't believe that the atrocities Hitler committed were due to any sickness. Even though he had many illnesses. Also, We can't say who should go to where when we die, and I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. Only God can decide those things. I don't think anyone can say what was going on in his mind when he ordered what he did. The way I see it though, how could anyone in their 'right' mind do what he ordered? He obviously had some faulty thought processes happening to even believe that Jews needed to be killed because they killed Jesus. The ways some people arrive at what they think are logical conclusions amaze me time and time again. But even Hitler shouldn't be tormented for eternity as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by maryhig on Jun 8, 2015 17:33:40 GMT -5
I have just read about Hitler, and a doctor who read all his medical notes and researched all different information said that he didn't believe that the atrocities Hitler committed were due to any sickness. Even though he had many illnesses. Also, We can't say who should go to where when we die, and I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. Only God can decide those things. I don't think anyone can say what was going on in his mind when he ordered what he did. The way I see it though, how could anyone in their 'right' mind do what he ordered? He obviously had some faulty thought processes happening to even believe that Jews needed to be killed because they killed Jesus. The ways some people arrive at what they think are logical conclusions amaze me time and time again. But even Hitler shouldn't be tormented for eternity as far as I'm concerned. It amazes me too, I don't understand how one person can hurt another. I can't watch any violence or cruelty. It's awful! But you know what I'm going to say now don't you! I believe God will judge us all in the right way, even Hitler! I it won't say anymore! for now
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2015 17:34:44 GMT -5
Dmmichgood Quote - "The god Yahweh, the god of the Abraham, was a "god of war" because that was what the people needed at that time. ... Come to the New Testament & they needed a god that would deliver them from their captors, the Romans. ... The biblical God wasn't prescient, prophetic about the fate of the Jews! You have a whole bible to cherry pick what you think you see that isn't really there!"
But Dmmichgood, IF (and that word "if" is the biggest word in the language IMO) the Jews "needed a god that would deliver them from their captors, the Romans." then where was this "god" ?
And this new god of peace seems to rule over the affairs of man through war! It says in the OT that the Jews would come back to their land a second time and "take it back with the sword." And then this new nation of Jews, living in "cities without walls" would be tested by the nation known to the OT as Magog, (and it allies in the Middle East) would test Israel with war at a scale not understood to the OT readers. And then this god of peace would test Israel through the battle of Armageddon. OT readers would not understand how "all the cities of the world" could fall and one third of all people on earth would die, for what is a local conflict. We understand, don't we? And finally there's that last war in Revelation - written by the Apostle John.
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